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  Discussion on Mare with Retained Placenta
Author Message
Member:
morg1

Posted on Monday, Apr 9, 2007 - 11:04 am:

Hi All,

I had a 5 year old maiden mare foal last night around 10:30, as of (10:00 AM) she has not shed her placenta. I was witness to the complete birth and it wasn't a difficult one. Labor was about 15 minutes from water breaking. I had the vet out and we gave her 4 doses IM of Oxytocin spaced 30 to 40 minutes apart. She also gave her Banamine and Penicillin. If she has not shed it by noon the vet will be back to try to extract it. I want to know what I should be doing so that I am informed when the vet gets here. Any suggestions would be wonderful. By the way, her foal is healthy and one of the most active ones I've seen yet. I read your article and your recommendations that the uterus be flushed. Would that be your recommendation instead of try to manually extract it? Thanks.
Member:
christel

Posted on Monday, Apr 9, 2007 - 11:20 am:

Hi Karen, I have a mare that has done this in the past. Along with the oxitocin my vet had me tie a 1/2 filled (with water) milk jug to the cord of the placenta that was hanging out. It put just enough pressure on it to slowly let it come out on its own. The oxytocin didn't seem to do much for my mare. It was funny- every now and then I would have to untie the milk jug to reposition it higher and get it off the ground. The mare acted upset when I took off the milk jug- she seemed to know it was gradually pullin the retained placenta out.
Hope this helps, sounds like you are staying on top of this- Good Luck.
Chris
Member:
canyon28

Posted on Monday, Apr 9, 2007 - 12:19 pm:

I would have your vet flush your mare with an antiseptic flush,until all pus and particles are gone from the return saline. she is going to have a lot of pus in there because she was left so long with the placenta in there. He may have to come back the next day and flush her again. She may also need to be on sulfa meds or antibiotics for the next few days.
I would not pull on the placenta or tie anything to it except maybe a wet towel. Most vets would be horrified if you try to remove it yourself, it may tear and small pieces will be left inside that will cause worse infection. My vet also told me last year of one he had to go to, the people had tried to pull the placenta out themselves and had inverted the mares uterus, she had to be destroyed. So Dont Do It, unless it is a last resort!
If your mare does this next year, get the vet out after 5 hours at the most. If they can get it out soon after that, the chances of her getting infected would be lessened a lot, so it would be cheaper for you in the long run to get the vet out right away. I would not let her go longer than that. did the mare suffer a lot of discomfort from the oxytocin, or did it not have much of an effect on her? I had one older mare that had some kind of an immunity to the oxytocin, it had almost no effect on her whatsoever, and she retained badly the last two foals she had. I had to have the vet come out and flush the placenta out with saline both times, which took hours of flushing and lathing.and I decided not to ever breed her again, because the oxytocin had no effect and I was worried that the next time she would not be able to get the foal out. She was a big mare in good condition, and had not had that many foals.
Anyway, your mare will need some good quality flushing now, plus antibiotics most likely, that is way way too long for that placenta to be left in a horse. Hope she recovers and is still breedable.
Member:
christel

Posted on Monday, Apr 9, 2007 - 12:53 pm:

Christine, I understand your horror at what I advised. The vet that told me this is Dr. Greg Veneklausen- he is one of the best repro vets in this country- not some quack.
It is a steady pull, and it sure worked on my mare.
I agree the after care is very important- ie- antibiotics and such. This is an emergency situation but since Karen is on top of it, I feel with proper after care treatment the mare and foal will fine.
Member:
morg1

Posted on Monday, Apr 9, 2007 - 5:41 pm:

HI All,

Thanks for the advice. I am adding wet towels to give an extra pull to the placenta. I think that a milk jug would freak her out. Yes, she still has her placenta intact. It is slowly (very slowly) releasing. The vet came back and of course did not want to try to manually extract it. I showed her the article from this website and asked about flushing. She wants to wait on the flushing unless I see a discharge, but she gave me bute to give her twice a day and (I forgot to ask what this is, but it's some sort of different antibiotic) TMS 960. I'm supposed to continue the Penicillin for 2 more days and give her the TMS 960 for 5 days. I don't know what else to do. I guess we are doing everything that DrO's articles suggest except for the uterine flush. Advice would be welcome. I emailed another vet I use for his advice too. Thanks.
Member:
christel

Posted on Monday, Apr 9, 2007 - 6:37 pm:

Karen I like the wet towels- neat idea- do you just wrap the cord around the towel? I too was afraid my mare would be spooked by the milk jug and instead used a broken adobe brick I drilled a hole in and attached some nylon baling string to hang with. It did take a while as I remember, longer than I expected.
If I am recalling correctly, this happened several years ago, the vet also had me give the foal antibiotics too.
Hoping she hurries and gives it up.
Chris
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Apr 9, 2007 - 6:47 pm:

Too much traction and you potentially scar the endometrium or tear the placenta leaving behind tags that become necrotic.

I do suggest adherence to the recommendations in the article and if betadine flushes worrysome to the vet, at least saline to remove necrotic material. Though your current course may succeed once the mare begins to founder it will be a difficult one to stop.

Concerning the antibiotic administered I am worried about the limited activity against gram negatives offered by TMP-SMZ / Pen combination and recommend once daily intrauterine infusions of a gentocin following the flushes.
DrO
Member:
morg1

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 10, 2007 - 11:10 am:

My mare shed her placenta at 7:15 this morning. It was all there and looked surprisingly good. Now I have a new problem. She is acting aggressive toward her foal. I'm assuming it has something to do with all of the stress and pain she has been through the last 36 hours. Since she has had almost constant contractions. I'm hoping that now that the contractions will get milder that she will again be kind to her foal. Does anyone have any suggestions on things to try? Right now, I don't believe the foal is any real danger. When she goes for him it is usually with just a bite and then back to where she was. Basically, she's telling him to stay away and he is getting really good at reading her body language. It's just hard to see this poor baby afraid of his mom. I took a sick day so I can be here and keep an eye on things. I will be making sure that he gets a chance to nurse and rest. Sometimes she will let him nurse, but not most of the time. This started sometime during the night. I checked at 12:30 AM and everything was fine and then at 4:15 AM he was acting afraid of her and I saw her go after him. Well I'm going on and on, and I need to go back out and check things.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 10, 2007 - 12:31 pm:

I think you should have her hormones checked. A lot of times aggressiveness in a mare towards her foal can be due to hormonal problems. The retained placenta could have affected her along with the hormones and other drugs given to her to help her get rid of it. Or, the retention of the placenta could also be indicative of hormonal problems.

If the mare has a full bag, it will be painful when the foal first starts to nurse, then the mare will feel relief. Usually a mare learns this and allows the foal to nurse. If you can either tie her (with the rope up high so foal won't get tangled) or get someone to hold her head, then you encourage and help the foal get back under her and help him to nurse again. If you can't do this, tie her and milk her out and let the foal drink the milk out of a bottle or shallow pan. Do this so her milk doesn't dry up. She may let the foal nurse again after a time or two. I'd do this until your vet has checked her and then he can let you know if you need to put her on hormones for awhile. Be careful and don't let her bite or kick you!
Member:
jockyrdg

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 10, 2007 - 12:41 pm:

Hi Karen; Sure you will get a thousand suggestions and one of them will work out for you. It may be as simple as she has sore teats. If she is just going at him with her teeth, halter her and hold her until the situation resolves. If it's a kick, some times hobbles work. I'd first determine if she is sore. We often used warm compresses when a new mom got sore and it often helped. So that's my 2 cents - sure there will be a lot more. Enjoy the baby, Beverly
Member:
morg1

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 10, 2007 - 1:35 pm:

I went out and put a grazing muzzle on her. Now she can't bite him. She hasn't at this point tried to kick. I can't tell if her teats are sore or it's her belly from all the cramping, but I hope that she gets over this soon. I can't take everyday off of work. That makes sense about her hormones. I have a vet appointment for tomorrow I might have him check that out. I'll include a picture of this little guy so you can see what he looks like. He's the first foal out of my mare and the first for my stallion too.


Mick's colt
Member:
shirl

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 10, 2007 - 2:14 pm:

PRECIOUS!

Shirl
Member:
erika

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 10, 2007 - 3:31 pm:

Aww! Who could bite a little cutie like that?!

My maiden mare made it very difficult for her foal to nurse, too. She got over it in a few days. She didn't bite, but kept moving so the foal couldn't get to her teats. Tough to watch, isn't it?
Member:
annes

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 10, 2007 - 4:38 pm:

Such a sweetie...I know you and Mom are proud!
Member:
morg1

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 10, 2007 - 4:53 pm:

It is hard to watch. She is very agitated right now. She is pacing her stall (which she is not used to being stalled anyway) looking outside, scratching and trying to remove the muzzle, and then with no satisfaction there goes and bothers the colt. Sometimes she just goes up to him and sniffs him. Other times she will try to rub on him and push him around with her head, and then what really makes me nervous are the times when she goes up to the foal with ears laid back and tries to bite, and push him aggressively, at one point I thought she was going to strike him but didn't. All this activity from her makes it hard for him to rest and he tries to sleep standing up. I'm thinking about letting her out of the stall to see if that helps, but I don't want her keeping the foal from nursing. I just don't know what to do, and like I said I can't keep taking days off of work. The only thing I know is that for now is that that muzzle is staying on, which means that I have to go out every so often and take it off so she can eat. The foal is getting real smart when he sees me enter the stall he goes straight for her udder. I wish there were a way that I could sedate her without sedating the foal too.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 10, 2007 - 5:13 pm:

Is there someone there to help you? Or, can you tie the mare up and then feel her bag and try to milk her? If she pins her ears and tried to cow kick at you, her bag hurts and should feel better once some milk is expressed by either you or the foal.

Is she only angry with the foal when he tried to nurse? We also had a maiden mare that would not allow her foal to nurse. At first she just seemed so enthralled with the foal she wouldn't let him out of her sight and wanted him right in front of her all the time. She kept turning to face him, and he couldn't get into position to nurse. So wasn't aggressive towards him until her bag got swollen and sore from the milk.

We tied her and had someone stand by her head, then had a person get on one side of her to keep her from turning away from the foal, and another person helped the foal get into nursing position. We did this every couple of hours for a day. Towards evening she was letting him nurse.

I also had a maiden mare that from the start acted extremely aggressively towards her foal and would have killed it if we had left it in the stall.

Until the vet comes out you have a couple of things to worry about; making sure the foal is getting enough to eat, and making sure the mare doesn't hurt him. Young foals need to nurse very frequently, and can forget how to suck if they go for very long without doing so. They can also go downhill rapidly if they aren't getting enough food or if they get injured by the dam.

If the mare is getting progressively worse, try and figure out if it's because of soreness, frustration at being shut up, or just her attitude in general. Is it possible for the foal and mare to be in a turnout instead of a stall? She might be happier, and the foal would have more room to get away from her if she tried to kick or bite at him.

Hopefully, this will resolve itself and the mare will settle down. Our mare that wanted the foal in front of her all the time turned into one of the best mothers we ever had, so there's hope! Just keep everyone, including you, safe in the meantime.
Member:
dres

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 10, 2007 - 5:29 pm:

I have to agree with Sara, things can turn quickly downward with a young foal.. You really have to watch them.. A foal will try to nurse about every 20 mins if it is not sleeping.. They are very demanding.. I like Sara's idea of you trying to express milk from the mare .. or has she always been shy about her teats..? I have heard of mares being sedated to allow the foals to nurse, I know its been done.. Good luck and I hope you can get help too..

On the first day God created horses ,on the second day he painted them with spots..
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 10, 2007 - 6:29 pm:

This is not an uncommon event with mares Karen and we have always found a day or two of sedation gets the mare to turn around. I have not had to resort to checking hormone levels.

Until the sedative you should hold the mare once every several hours to allow the foal to nurse. If there is room you can also divide the stall with a board high enough for the foal to go under but prevents the mare from gaining access. That way the foal can find a safe place to rest. There is more information in Diseases of Horses » Reproductive Diseases » Birthing Problems » Feeding and Caring for the Orphan Foal on getting foster mares to accept foals and dealing with the initial aggression.
DrO
Member:
morg1

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 10, 2007 - 8:46 pm:

Well the mare got progressively worse to the point of rearing up to try to come down on the foal. It might not be the best choice and I agonized over it, but we decided that we are going to bottle feed the foal. Wish me luck. I will start a new post, because I have never been down this road before. I am a mess, but happy that we have made a choice. I'm just tired of worrying about it, but I know with this new challenge comes new problems. I hope that you don't find my giving up hope as a huge disappointment.
Member:
dres

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 10, 2007 - 9:14 pm:

https://members.aol.com/fairviewhorsectr/igloo.html

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
Member:
morg1

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 10, 2007 - 9:46 pm:

Oh, thank you Ann! I think this is just what we'll need. We haven't had our first feeding yet. I just tried and couldn't get him to take an interest. I guess he will get hungry enough at some point, but I can't help worrying about him. I feel some relieve knowing that I have a vet scheduled to come out tomorrow. Thanks again.
Member:
morg1

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 11, 2007 - 7:29 am:

The vet that I'm having out today (different vet) doesn't want to give up yet, so I will let you know what happens. I have been bottle feeding him, but at every other feeding (after the bottle) I catch the mare and have him nurse. Right now, they are separated completely from each other except when I catch her, but if she wanted she could come to the half door of the stall and talk to him, but she doesn't she stays as far away as she can and when she is close she snorts and blows and runs off. I'm still holding out hope that they can be reunited, but I don't have much faith in it.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 11, 2007 - 9:17 am:

Disappointed no, you have to do what you think is best for the foal and you are in the best position to decide this. Either way {Diseases of Horses » Reproductive Diseases » Birthing Problems » Feeding and Caring for the Orphan Foal} provides helpful advice. Love the igloo cooler idea above.
DrO
Member:
boomer

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 11, 2007 - 1:18 pm:

That igloo cooler idea is the best! What a clever person..
Member:
leslie1

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 11, 2007 - 3:24 pm:

Wow! Karens foal and "freckles, the igloo foal" look alot alike. lots o' chrome. and so beautiful

good luck,
leslie
Member:
morg1

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 11, 2007 - 10:04 pm:

Hi All,

Well this is what we are going to try. I'm going to continue to give him a little milk replacer, and then I will turn the now sedated mare in with the foal while I am there to observe. I have decided to try to let her in with him every 2 or 3 hours and she will only be fed when she is in his stall (she will have all her grain and hay there). I thought that this would be a little postive reinforcement. I will stand in the stall and observe and correct her for any misbehavior toward her foal. She has seemed to mellow a little toward the foal (observed before sedation), but still not safe to just leave him with her and now I have seen her kick at him. I do have a good feeling about this, because as we corrected her she quickly got the hint and the foal laid down next to her and she continued to peacefully eat hay that was right next to him. I'll let you know how things work out, but I no longer feel so helpless. I guess my post last night just revealed all the stress that the last two days has brought on. Thanks again for all of your advice. I'll keep you posted.
Member:
morg1

Posted on Sunday, Apr 15, 2007 - 12:55 pm:

I just wanted to update you on our situation. The colt "Champ" is still being bottle fed. Yes, mom definitely won't tolerate him. She allows him to nurse when we are there, but only when we are there to run interference so to speak. I am still having him nurse every time I feed him and then since I'm home during the weekend he gets to nurse her every hour, but now she is practically dried up (I guess from the stress), so it definitely looks like he's going to be bottle fed. Here is a picture that I took of him yesterday.

Champ

The mare is doing fine, and doesn't seem have any problems from her retained placenta.
Thanks again for all of your advice. If I have anymore questions I'll post them under feeding an orphan foal.
Member:
lilo

Posted on Sunday, Apr 15, 2007 - 1:59 pm:

What a cutie. Good luck with the feeding.

Lilo
Member:
morg1

Posted on Sunday, May 6, 2007 - 12:10 am:

Hi Everybody,

Just wanted to update you on my mare and foal. The foal is doing great on the bottle. Here is a picture of him at 3 weeks old.
Champ
The mare is 100% sound and healthy. I feel that considering her ordeal I should not rebreed her, but I've had a few people trying to talk me into it. Well, I guess I'm asking what do you all think? If I do rebreed should I wait another month? A year? I'm afraid that even if everything goes smoothly, and she actually sheds her placenta right away that she will still remember her discomfort and stress from the last one and reject one again. I know that none of us knows what will happen, but I thought that I would get some opinions from people's advice that I trust. Let me know what you all think. Thanks in advance.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, May 6, 2007 - 9:02 am:

Hello Karen,
If this occurs with a mare's first foal, as in your case, you will often find the next foaling will go much better, but sometimes not. Hmm... this observation is with mares that have been coaxed back to the foal however. With a mare that has had multiple foals and behaved this way I see no reason for next year to be different. I don't believe it has anything to do with remembering the stress and discomfort however and everything to do with the mare's basic temperament.
DrO
Member:
mrose

Posted on Sunday, May 6, 2007 - 10:24 am:

Great looking foal! And, I totally agree with Dr. O. The one mare we ever had that not only rejected her foal, but was very aggressive to it, we gave to UCDavis to be part of a study on foal rejection. She is now a great riding horse. Like some women, some mares are just not cut out to be mothers, imo.
Member:
christel

Posted on Sunday, May 6, 2007 - 11:45 am:

Karen, cute foal! What have you named him?
I have known maiden mares that rejected their first foal- never took to the foal- and became great moms when bred again. I would try her 1 more time and see.
My mare that has a history of retained placenta has never done it since putting her on a better feeding program. I now feed a 14% grain and the best alfalfa and grass hay I can find. Not sure if nutrition per say plays a role, but it has sure worked for me to keep this mare on quality feed, year round, every year. She is due to foal first of May, keeping my fingers crossed it is still working.
When rebreeding my mares I normally wait till their first 'real' heat, not foal heat. As long as mare is staying in good condition, since your mare is not a nursing mom and still in good condition, I don't see why you couldn't start back on her, unless she would need more healing time due to the retained placenta.
Hope that helps,
Chris
Member:
paardex

Posted on Sunday, May 6, 2007 - 12:30 pm:

Karen, I agree with Dr O and Sara.
I've had a mare who not only had a retained placenta but got foundered was in a lot of pain, this happened three times and she NEVER considered rejecting her foal.When we decided not to breed her anymore she did the best she could to steal other foals.
Imo Sara is right some mares are just better at other 'work'.
Good Luck with your decision you know your mare and will be able to decide trust your instincts !
Jos
Member:
juliem

Posted on Sunday, May 6, 2007 - 1:35 pm:

Maybe not relevant, but what will you do with the potential foal from this mare? Will you be keeping it? Is there a market for it should you decide to sell? Is the mare exceptional? I think if the mare is not an exceptional example of her breed and has some talent for her use, no one should breed. Just because a horse has a uterus is no reason to breed. There are way too many nice foals on the ground already and not nearly enough buyers. In the most common breeds, you can buy a weanling--color and sex of your choice-- for less than you may pay for an exceptionl stud fee. Choose the conformation, choose the personality, choose the pedigree--and no risk to your own mare or the dicey question of getting a healthy foal. Sorry, this is a rant, but the horse market can only sustain so many horses before good homes are out of the question. Apologies for hijacking your post to rant. Julie
Member:
erika

Posted on Sunday, May 6, 2007 - 2:01 pm:

Great point, Julie. I agree whole heartedly.
Very important considerations.
Member:
sully

Posted on Sunday, May 6, 2007 - 2:20 pm:

I think it was Horsecity that also had a blog of this situation where the mare rejected the foal and in that case, they took another mare (who liked the baby and let it try to nurse her) and with shots got her to produce milk.
Sully
Member:
sully

Posted on Sunday, May 6, 2007 - 2:21 pm:

PS Beautiful foal!! :-)
Member:
morg1

Posted on Sunday, May 6, 2007 - 3:33 pm:

HI All,

Thanks for getting back to me with all of this great advice. I really think that the mare continued to reject the colt simply because she dried up. I'm assuming the stress is what dried her up. The longest she went without nursing him was 4 hours when we were still trying, so I don't think that it was from lack of nursing.

Chris, We named the foal Champ. I never breed in the foal heat, but her 30 day heat should be starting now, and I was wondering if I should wait another month before I try or longer. I'm still on the fence about it anyway and will probably wait until the next heat cycle if I do breed her.

All good questions Julie, and if I didn't think that the foal would be marketable I wouldn't have bred her. (I just recently decided to breed Paint horses (mostly because my husband likes them), but since they are way less marketable than my Morgans I have decided to cut down to one stallion and one mare for now). I feel that I have a very high standard of exceptional, and although this mare doesn't 100% meet my criteria she definitely has something to add to the gene pool. I don't want to get off of subject here either, but I foal out 1 or 2 foals each year, so far I have kept one out of each foal crop that I've had (of course that can't continue). With all do respect I am not someone who is adding to this over population of horses. It's people like my neighbors that have a stallion and a bunch of mares (if half of them are registered I'd be surprised) and they just let their sad excuse for a stallion breed as he likes because they like to see foals every year. I'm just starting out in the breeding business and realize as things currently stand it will not be easy, but my goal is to produce horses that will improve the breed, so it might take me awhile to get there, but I will get there. Also, this colt is the first sired by my stallion, so far I couldn't be more thrilled with him, but if at anytime in the next couple of years I'm less than thrilled with his offspring I will not hesitate to geld him. Thanks for all of your advice it is greatly appreciated. Karen
Member:
erika

Posted on Sunday, May 6, 2007 - 4:34 pm:

Karen, Champ is a cutie, as I said before.

I hope you weren't offended by Julie's questions above...Dr. O often points out that a lot of people read these threads, and it is always very important to consider all these things before breeding--as you obviously already have.

Good luck if you do decide to try the mare again. You made a valiant effort in trying to make it all work and you obviously care a lot about your horses.

I have a friend like your neighbor who thinks any two horses are worthy of breeding, and it really gets to me. Had to chime in my two cents!
Member:
mitma

Posted on Sunday, May 6, 2007 - 5:03 pm:

Karen,
Champ is a beauty! I'm relieved to hear someone voice some professional ethics in the horse breeding "industry"; if only more people were like you and not like your neighbor, then there might be fewer unwanted horses. I do think it's important to have "voices of reason" from people like Julie and Erika just to help temper those of us who may be tempted to breed our horses for reasons like emotional factors (you know... the cute baby horse thing). I'm sure that you are thinking very seriously whether or not to rebreed this mare... perhaps, give her a year off and then try again if you really think she has something to add to the gene pool??? Good Luck!
Martha
Member:
morg1

Posted on Sunday, May 6, 2007 - 6:13 pm:

I was not offended by Julie's questions. I wish that there was a way to regulate people like my neighbor so that they were required to breed for quality, unfortunately there is no possiblity of that and the rest of us who are trying to be responsible are suffering for it. Thanks for the compliments on Champ. Not only is he cute, he is one of the smartest colts that I've ever had the pleasure of working with. He gets that from his sire, once he gets what you are asking (and that happens pretty fast) he doesn't forget. I wish that I could keep Champ. We have fallen in love with him, but we don't have a good enough reason to keep him, especially since his sire is only a 4 year old.

I am definitely considering giving the mare a year's break, and I might just use her as a riding horse. We will see. Thanks again.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Sunday, May 6, 2007 - 7:26 pm:

I can see why you fell in love with him!! And I'm very glad you are a responsible breeder.

It isn't just people like your neighbors that are irresponsible. Although I'm most familiar with the Arabian breed, I'm sure this takes place in every breed: people with money think horses are pretty; think it would be great to own a beautiful horse that is a national champion. A champion mare owner, or more likely stallion owner tells them how much money their foals will be worth if they breed to their stallion; people buy some brood mares - expensive show horses with great records and wonderful blood lines so foals will be worth more - and breed them. Even though the foals don't sell or don't sell for what they think they are worth, they keep breeding the mares sure that the foals will be worth more when they get some training, win a few ribbons, etc. At some point they either start running out of money, or realize how much all this is costing them and either dump the horses at a sale or auction, or in some cases just abandon them. There's various version of this story, but you get the picture. People like this are every bit as irresponsible as your neighbors; maybe even more so.
Member:
paardex

Posted on Monday, May 7, 2007 - 3:30 am:

Karen, I want to add I did not mean pain has no influence on accepting a foal just that for some it doesn't and you are the one who can judge which career will be best for your mare because you know her.
Apart from that I completely agree with all said about people just overpopulating the world with horses without thinking about the foal.
An old dutch saying: That's not breeding but producing!
Jos
Member:
morg1

Posted on Monday, May 7, 2007 - 8:23 am:

Jos, Don't worry about it. I might be grasping at straws, but it was the only thing that made sense to me. Maybe she was just going dry already, since by then her colostrum would have been changing to milk. I don't know, but it is strange that she accepted him for over 24 hours and then decided to turn on him. I really doubt that I do breed her again, because I worry enough about my mares foaling I would be a nervous wreck when this mare foaled again, and what if she foaled and I missed it and she attacked her foal when it couldn't even stand yet. I thought that I was getting really good at catching my mares foaling but my last mare snuck one in on me. I checked on her at 2:30 am and when I went out to feed a little after 7 am she had a foal that was born long enough that he jumped quickly to his feet at my approach, and he was pretty much dry. This mare looked no different at 2:30 am than she had for the last 2 weeks. Her bag wasn't filled all the way, and there was no wax or milk and she wasn't completely relaxed all the way. This was her second foal, with her first one she went through all the signs and changes (textbook).

Anyway, we all know that sometimes mares can be sneaky and that could possibly be the death of her foal if she were to reject it right away, and I don't think I could take that chance.
Member:
paardex

Posted on Monday, May 7, 2007 - 12:52 pm:

Whatever you decide you have given it so much thought you will not in anyway be responsible if something goes wrong.
And if you do not breed you can always change your mind on a later date, I just surprised the studfarm with a 'maiden' mare of 9 years old!
Jos
Member:
morg1

Posted on Monday, May 7, 2007 - 6:27 pm:

Thanks. I have a friend that finally had her maiden mare bred at 16 years. She was her show horse and she decided it was time to breed her. She got a awesome stud colt out of her, so nice she kept him a stallion and this is one responsible horse owner. She usually gelds everything but the best of the best.

I'm thinking that I'm going to leave this mare open, for this year anyway, and wait to make up my mind next year.
Member:
cgby1

Posted on Monday, May 7, 2007 - 9:39 pm:

Karen, How I wish that I had known about this forum two years ago! My mare Shimmeree had the same thing happen. She went into labor but she was very agitated and delivered standing up. She had a filly at about 10 pm, retained the placenta and it did not come out until 5am in the morning. I did not know about tying anything on to the cord but I did remember that a nurse had massaged my abdomen after the birth of my son. She said that it would stimulate my uterus to shrink back to its normal size. I tried it and she started having contractions again. During this time the Sea Dancer was very active and Shimmeree allowed her to nurse. I called the vet's in the morning and told them what had happened but they said he could not come out until the next day. Later in the afternoon my mom noticed that Shimmeree started to move away when the foal approached her to nurse. When I went out she started to moved away but then stood and let her eat. I thought everything was okay and left them alone. When I came out a hour or so later she had rejected her baby and injured her neck. The vet was of no help, he just said that he would come out in the morning. My mare did allow me to milk her and I was able to feed her with a syringe. The vet came out the next day and gave her a tranquilizer but she still threatened to bite and kick at the filly. He told me about milk replacer and the goats nipple and gave no hope to reunite them. I was able to milk her for a week until she started getting blood in it, then I put Sea Dancer(Sweetsea for short) on milk replacer. I tried using the goats nipple but even though I made the hole larger she would not suck hard enough so I got her to drink it out of a bowl. I wish that I had known about the igloo since I got up every three hours to feed her at night and every two hours during the day. The filly's grandma did want to take over and even allowed her to nurse. But as Sweetheart was 30 yrs old and had not had a foal in 17 yrs I could not be sure that she could give her the nutrition that she needed. She allowed that filly to nurse her until I finally weaned her around 6 months old. I have not rebreed Shimmeree though I wonder if she would accept the next foal. My friend Sharon told me that the vets in her area give all the mares Banamine after the birth now and I wonder if that might have helped. Cynthia
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