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  Discussion on Navicular in older horse
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Member:
Mkuchta

Posted on Saturday, Sep 6, 2003 - 11:45 pm:

My 27 year old Appy gelding was diagnosed articular navicular. My vet said he had a bone spur, possibly from an old injury and the tendon was riding over it and causing lameness. This horse has been very sound all his life, has good muscle tone and is in excellent shape.

He was injected in the coffin joint and now has aluminum bar shoes, pads, and a slightly raised angle.
This treatment has not helped at all and he is unsound at anything but the walk and has started stumbling.
I am considering nerving, but I am also concerned about the long term effects of this injury on my horse.
1. Is there any likelihood that this bone spur will cause the tendon to tear or become infected?
2. Also, since it is only the right front that is unsound, would only one foot be nerved?
3.Is the age of the horse a factor in how long it takes before the nerve regenerates and the horse feels pain again? Are nerves more likely to regenerate faster in younger horses? Thanks for your help!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Sep 7, 2003 - 7:55 am:

Hello Maureen,
Taking your questions in order:
1) Without viewing the radiographs I am unable to answer this question. If you need a second opinion on this I would recommend you have the radiographs sent off to a radiologist for evaluation.
2) Yes
3) No, as long as the horse is healthy age is unlikely to have a significant role in time to reinnervation.
DrO
Member:
Canyon28

Posted on Sunday, Sep 7, 2003 - 4:37 pm:

I have two old horses that are navicular from years of poor foot care or lack of care. If it was me I would not put the pads back on this horse hext time he is reshod, as they can add to the problem and make a bad situation worse, by inviting thrush, abcesses, etc. I dont see that the pad could be helping anything anyway. both of my horses with navicular are in long wedged up handmade shoes, with heels on them as long as the back of the bulb of the front foot.With some horses and eggbar shoe may help, but I have one mare that was very lame and now gets along great with just the long shoe with a wedge, that gets her hoof angle and pastern angle correct. she has fairly short pastern joint and spent years in wet green pastures with no farrier care, her feet grew excessively long, which made her foot and pastern angle totally off, and this is what made her navicular. The other horse is an old gelding and he has a broken sesimoid bone in his foot. He does pretty well, but is now starting to stumble and limp, even at a walk, but my farrier says his knees are going, which isnt helping any. He just must have had many years of hard riding and not very good hoof care. Neither one of these horses is ridden anymore, and they are both over 20 years old.
Member:
Ryan

Posted on Thursday, Sep 11, 2003 - 12:51 am:

If I can just make a suggestion, before you choose nerving, I commented on another line, but please check out some hoof care websites along with your research. Ones such as www.thenaturalequine, and many others - that can help you understand truly how the hoof functions, the shape it has to have in order to function. No horse is 'born' with navicular ...you don't just get a 'lemon' as I heard a vet say. It relates to hoof form and function. Nerving only covers over the pain. And that isn't long term either. You still have the original probelm.
Solving it is in the balance of the hoof. All the pads/wedge shoes will not cure it or help it.
Injections in the coffin bone do not cause or contribute to healing.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Sep 11, 2003 - 6:53 am:

Melissa you make many generalizations which are half truths. "Navicular" is not a diagnosis it is a region with bones, joints, ligaments, and a tendon: each of these can become diseased in a number of ways and the cause, treatment and prognosis is different for each one. I have seen horses with chronically low heels that came sound with wedges, and horses with very sensitive soles that could only work in pads. I have seen horses with arthritis of the coffin joint that worked sucessfully with antiinflammatory injections in the joint. In each case we have limitations and goals that have to be met for the problem to be successfully solved but hoof balancing alone, always my first step, did not solve the problem.

Many horses have chronic foot pain of unknown origin that is not responsive to correct hoof balance. While nerving does not fix the problem causing pain it returns these horses to use and with careful case selection does not seem to contribute to a more rapid degradation of the foot. Yes many problems are caused by incorrect balance of the hoof, but not all and not all respond to having a correct balance returned.
DrO
Member:
Mkuchta

Posted on Thursday, Sep 11, 2003 - 12:36 pm:

I took my horse and the radiographs to another vet who has an excellent reputation. He agreed with my first vet's diagnosis (bone spur). I did get a much better understanding of my horse's condition and he helped me make up my mind about nerving. He also felt that isoxoprene was worth trying even though it is not considered effective any more. He liked the shoeing job my farrier did. I will check out the natural foot website but this horse is 27 and come changes are inevitable. He was barefoot all his life until diagnosed with navicular.

I asked him about nerving but he said if I was considering it, he "would have to talk me out of it". He went over the x rays and showed me all the other arthitic changes in my horse's foot. He believes that even if Sam was nerved he would never be completely sound. Based on this it doesn't seem worth the risk. I probably won't be providing my horse with more comfort so I'll stick with the corrective shoing and maybe use bute if he gets worse. Right now he runs around the pasture so I guess he isn't feeling too bad. Right now when he wants to trot, he's sound and when I want to trot he's lame. I'll never understand horses ;-)

Maureen Kuchta
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Sep 12, 2003 - 7:36 am:

Sorry to hear about the second poor prognosis, Maureen.
DrO
Member:
Ryan

Posted on Friday, Sep 12, 2003 - 1:02 pm:

Point taken DrO. Every horse, every case is different for many reasons. The beginning of learning is asking questions, that is all I was doing, is suggesting to ask questions. So many of us just take what the vet/farrier says without really researching. Nerving is an invasive procedure - I have seen cases where owners have allowed it, not really understanding what was being done, and the possible ramifications for it. Every horse owner is responsible, we shouldn't make our vets and farriers responsible.
I did generalize and thus, speak in half truths, but because that is what we have been given in many cases by our vets/farriers is generalizing and half truths. "Your horse has navicular disease". How many owners have a clue what that means. How many vets/farriers diagnose and really do not 'know' what is causing the lameness, they end up mostly having to guess, giving it the name "navicular disease". I have seen that happen numerous times in this area. Maybe we have a bad pool of vets/farriers, I don't know. I do know that, in that asking questions and by learning helps open the door to finding out about our particular horse/case.
Yes, their is the navicular bone, and then the joints/tendons/ligaments that are all in the region of the navicular bone. One or all may be affected for various reasons.
Whatever the problem is in each case is caused by something...usually poor hoof form, or over use of the horse that is beyond its physical capabilities. Usually if caught early, many of the symptoms can be helped if the cause is found out. But it is like our bodies, we can harm them to a point beyond fixing. Then, we have to do what we can to 'get by'. So if a horse has been damaged in the navicular region beyond 100% healing, then we have to do what we can to get them comfortable. What I am saying is, as a horse owner are we willing to surgically modify our horses in order to continue doing what 'we' want to do with them? It comes down to what each person considers ethical. That is a personal decision. How many horse owners know how the hoof functions, what is where and how it is being affected. I am only suggesting that we all become better informed before we make decisions to allow someone else to alter our horses.

Maybe, if we all become better informed, if each horse owner fully understands hoof function, then we can elliminate the causes of lameness, instead of treating the disease - elliminate it all together. Becoming educated, and then only using our horse in a way that it is capable of performing.
Melissa
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Sep 13, 2003 - 9:47 am:

The questions are fine Melissa, but statements like "Nerving isn't long term" seems to suggest 5 years and counting with the newer procudures is short term and the statement that "injections in the coffin joint do not contribute to healing" ignores the diseases of acute arthritis of the coffin and navicular joints that can cause degenerative joint disease unless the joint is treated specifically with antiinflammatory medications.
DrO
New Member:
Irvincd

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 8, 2006 - 9:51 am:

I have a horse that has been showing signs of lameness since I got him some 4 years ago. He was 15 and a great horse probably rode hard and put up wet but he was the horse anyone could ride anywhere. I had the vet check him out and I bought him. Later he would come up lame and more often as time went on. The vet recommended bute before and after rides and when he was lame.
A year ago Debbie and I (the real owner and lover of the horse) took the horse to the state vet for a lameness test. They found many old war scars in there and did the nerve blocks one at a time up both front legs with lunging between each one.
Threw all that was there the Vets final call was that Old Dude had Navicular disease. But being there and actually seeing the joints in the x-rays and all and seeing the little bone in the coffin joint took the guess work out of everything as the Doc explained everything for a small price!

Now the real reason for posting this is we went with the egg DrOp shoes for the past year and it has seemed to help up until now and we have been giving him powder bute recommended by the NC School of Med Vet. It has seemed to help.

Yesterday my farrier decided to try a new something he had read about. A regular shoe that’s bent in at the back and will help put the pressure in the right place. We will see how this works.

Does anyone have a good site for all the different ways of shoeing a horse with this disease? I need it and my farrier needs it!

Thanks
Carl
Member:
Lilly

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 8, 2006 - 1:39 pm:

Carl,
There is an amazing equine podiatrist located in Evington, VA. Her name is Dr. Andrea Floyd (she is a vet and a farrier) and her website is: www.serenityequine.com . I took a podiatry class at her clinic last weekend. She does amazing work. I know she does consultations - you send her your horse's x-rays and she communicates to your farrier as to what needs to be done.

Ann
New Member:
Irvincd

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 8, 2006 - 3:06 pm:

Thank you Ann

I will get try to get the x-rays and contact DR. Floyd.

Thank you so much
Carl
Member:
Paul303

Posted on Thursday, Feb 9, 2006 - 12:28 am:

Carl: You called your horse Dude - is he a quarter horse, and if so, what are his lines?

I've been dealing with Navicular synDrOme for 20 years in a mare I have. There are times when it can really be managed well. You might not have a competition horse, but if your horse is good in every other way, it's worth all the trouble.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Feb 9, 2006 - 6:59 am:

Carl have you read the article associated with this discussion?
DrO
New Member:
Irvincd

Posted on Friday, Feb 17, 2006 - 10:31 am:

All

Sorry I have been away from my desk for a spell after asking for help.

Ann
I did contact Dr. Floyd and she can help. However we do have to load up and go to VA and there is a pretty good fee also with that. We are entertaining the IDEA but we are looking at other options because. Dr Floyd only works with a few farriers and they have to under stand the high-speed digital stuff. It’s not something I can go learn and come home and get my farrier to do.

Dr O
Which article are you speaking of? I think I have read them all. I am new to this site.

Whoever
Whoever ask about Dudes bloodline, I didn’t catch your name but yes he is a quarter horse and his Sire was First Choice Dude who's Sire was Pat Star Dude and his Dam was Powdies Choice. Dude's
Dam was Strawking Dream who's Sire was Jo's Buttercup and her Dam was Kay Bars Strowking. And so on...Blondy's Dude, Merry Pat Star.
You say there are times when the Navicular can be managed well. Can you tell me more? We are looking for a local solution rather than long trips and such. The new shoes the Farrier put on have seemed to help and we have stopped the Bute for now. Anything to keep his Mommy Debbie from crying when he limps. He is 18 and born in VA.

Thanks you all
Carl and Debbie
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Feb 18, 2006 - 10:20 am:

Hello Carl and Debbie,
Go to the top of this frame and you will see a navigation bar that tells you where you are. Click on "Navicular Disease / SynDrOme" and it will take you the article on Navicular Disease which discusses proper shoeing of these horses.
DrO
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