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  Discussion on Horse Dies from Ulcerations
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New Member:
Creed

Posted on Thursday, Sep 18, 2003 - 1:36 pm:

Creed is a 100% Foundation Quarter Horse, Poco Bueno line, 6 years old, never soar, never had colic, no bad habits, gentle natured. Used for very light back yard riding. With little travel. Apprx. 1200lbs, 14 2 HH. Fed Natural 12 from Uckele Co. in Blissfield, Michigan. A Oat mixture with very little corn and molassys that I added plain oats, inorder to keep the carbs to a minimum for my older horses. The mixture had vitamins in it and I added Coca-Soya, Selenium, and extra vitamins. The amount they were given was 2 - 2 cup measuring cups morning and night, that I had Uckele Co. weighed with feed in it to make sure they were getting the right amount. All this past spring/summer they were fed grass hay.

Thursday, Sept. 11, 2003: Creed stopped eating grain but continued to eat hay with the other horses and graze on grass, no other changes except maybe not quite as responsive.

Friday, Sept. 12, 2003: Still not eating grain but does eat hay with other horses but leaves earlier than the others to go into turn-out shed.

Saturday, Sept. 13, 2003: Put him in a round pen to closely monitor his water consumption, hay, grain. He walked around and ate grass in round pen but not as quickly as normal. Took a couple bites of grain and ate some of the hay. He drank a (med.) bucket and a half of water from 8:00 am to 1:00pm. Decided to give him Banamine according to the tube (10cc per 1,000lbs) I gave him 10cc. By 5:00 he was ate 3/4 of his grain and some hay but not as much as the others.

Sunday, Sept. 14, 2003: He did not come out of his stall when the other horses did - I went to check on him and he couldn't hardly walk. All four feet/legs had a hard time moving. Called the vet out who came about 10:00 am. He said he had Foundered, his temp was slightly higher and pulse was close to normal. He gave him a tranquilizer shot and a Bute shot. He instructed us to give him 2gms of Bute and 10cc of Banamine morning and night. Also gave us a tranquilizer to give him Sunday night. Creed was eating and drinking everytime we offered water and continued to eat grass hay.

Monday, Sept. 14, 2003: Creed was getting worse, starting shaking and seemed more in pain, had a seizure type of thing happen where he stretched his head straight out as if there was an attack on his system. He was down now more than up. He was sweating behind ears and in other areas of creases. His urine was a dark brown like coffee. I called the vet and he said it was all part of Founder. We panicked and didn't believe it and found another vet (that we never used). She was wonderful she came out about 4:30 pm on Sunday and said this was not Founder, it almost reminded her of tying up. She noticed a toxic line that was starting on his gums and the response to pressure on the comes was not as good. She took blood samples and ran an IV with DMSO to rehydrate him. She said to discontinue the Bute but continue the Banamine. She went to dinner and then went to the office to test the blood samples. She called us at 9:30pm to tell us that his blood work looked good, liver and kidney looked good, blood count looked good, there were a couple things low that she would expect with his condition, the only thing that she could see is that his protein was around 340 or so and that was due to him losing it in his urine and she wasn't sure why. After she left at 7:30 - Creed seemed to be doing better, stood for 1.5 hours and ate some hay. We checked him at 10:00 and got him up to stand, had him drink some water and he stood for an hour .

Tuesday, Sept. 15, 2003: Went to see him at 5:30am he was laying in his stall with his head up. I got him to stand up but he was real shaky, breathing was heavy, and sweating was more prominent. He stood for 10 minutes and laid down. He got up 5 minutes later and started to have pain convulsions that he could not control his body. He fell one way with a convusion then the other way where he was flat out in the stall and continued convulsions for a minute or so and died.

We decided to take him to Michigan State University for a "autopsy" to find out how a perfectly healthy horse died. They were wonderful to work with in this very emotional situation. They said to go to get something to eat and they would have something to tell us before we left for home. The Doctor said he died from Severe Ulcerations in the stomache. That was not what he got sick from but that is what killed him. They wanted to know how much Bute and Banamine he was given and how often. They think the combination gave him the Ulcerations. They are still looking into why he got sick but that will take a week to get the tissue samples back from lab work. They also said they checked the hooves and all of them looked good except there was very slight hint of laminitus in the back left hoof. They still don't know why he was losing protein because his muscles looked good.

So my questions are.... Could a day and a half of Banamine and Bute really cause enough Ulcerations to kill him! My husband and I have a hard time believing that - when everyone uses these drugs at these levels! Could he have had ulcerations before they started the Banamine and Bute? Could he just be one of those rare instances of unable to tolerate the combination?

A friend of mine lost her horse with the exact same symptoms almost to the day 5 years ago and also in 3 days but hers was from a poisonous weed called - White Snake Root - Could he have gotten into a bad weed in our field? MSU says his liver and kidneys were Ok so they didn't think that would be the case. Could a horse get poisoned and not damage the liver and kidney?

My only hope at this point is that we can all learn from this terrible horse death!

Thanks

Pam Griesinger

Member:
Lilo

Posted on Thursday, Sep 18, 2003 - 1:55 pm:

My sincere condolences. You did everything you could, my heart goes out to you. So many of us have lost horses or other favorite animals, and we know how hard it is. I hope you find out the real reason.
Lilo
Member:
Shirl

Posted on Thursday, Sep 18, 2003 - 2:15 pm:

Pamela,
I'm so sorry for your loss and heart ache. You certainly went above and beyond trying to help your friend, and I along with others I'm sure, thank you for sharing the information. Hopefully you will find out the real cause of this tremendous loss. Prayers, Shirl
Member:
Westks

Posted on Thursday, Sep 18, 2003 - 3:21 pm:

Pamela I recently lost my easy keep'n good buddy too and I do know the what if's and coulda shoulda 's that are going through your mind.
But most of all I know the pain in your heart right now.
I'm getting through it now and feeling better about my decisions and know I did what I could as soon as I noticed a problem. I started feeling better when I forgave myself for whatever I had in my head that I might or might not have done " if ".
You did way more than most would have , could not have monitored any closer and really had any more answers. The hardest part is not knowing why and we may never know but don't blame yourself.
There are very few horses bred that fall into this category, so be comforted by knowing that your buddy had a owner as good as you .
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Sep 19, 2003 - 6:44 am:

My condolences Pam. This does seem unusually quick for toxicity from either one drug, but we do not have any studies that answer your questions when bute and Banamine are used together. In studies of bute overdosage (horses given 3 times the normal dosage) it took 48 hours for the ulcers to begin to develop. We do have more on bute and Banamine toxicity in their respective articles, see » Equine Medications and Nutriceuticals » Anti-inflammatories: NSAID's, Steroids, and Arthritis Treatment ».

I think the thing to do at this time is to wait until all the information comes back from the testing then perhaps a logical time line of events can be put together.
DrO
Member:
Creed

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 11, 2003 - 6:50 pm:

I just wanted to write back to let you know that the test results did come back some time ago about my horse. MSU could not find any reasons why he was ill in the first place but they still believe the Bute/Banamine combination is what ended up killing him.

I just have to wonder if he had ulcers before the Bute/Banamine or possible weed poisoning and the combination of the two medications just blew-it out? He just wasn't a likely canidate for ulcers - I rode 2-3x max a week and he wasn't stalled. I did take a rode trip a month prior to his death, where he was alone in the trailer for 3 hours and I had a flat tire on the way, he stayed in a strange stall at night for 3 days, and I got a flat on the way home too. Could that kind of stress cause ulcers?

I do have a new horse now, he is a sweet horse but not the same. I do have to say, I am a little more nervous about taking care of him.

Pam
Member:
Parfait

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 11, 2003 - 10:26 pm:

Pam,
You will learn to love your new horse in a different way and it will be just as good eventually. I feel for you. I'm sorry that you are struggling but sometimes things just happen and you don't know why.

A three hour trailer stay or a few nights in a stall shouldn't make a horse morbidly ill with ulcers (and if that were the case then we would never be able to have a horse show). I hope soon you can go out to your horse and find the peace you found before.

Kerry
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 11, 2003 - 11:38 pm:

Pam-I'm so sorry for the loss of your friend. I know first hand how difficult it is, even when they just die of "old age." Janette is right; you did all that you could. It's always easy to second guess with lots of hindsight. But, you did what you could, with best treatment you could with the knowledge you had at the time. That is all you can do. All animals, inc. humans, sometimes die without us understanding the "whys."
It would drive me nuts, too, to not know the reasons; but hard as it is, sometimes things just "seem to happen." Some things that cause illness, in people or horses, are just hard to detect; sometimes what is minor for one will be a killer for another due to something different in their systems. You just can't worry about it too much (difficult as that is) and be thankful for the good life your horse led under your good care. Don't let your experience adversly affect you re: your new horse.

Many of my horses over the years have been trailered from one side of the country to another, stayed in lots of strange stalls, etc. As long as they have food, drink water, and are cared for properly it won't hurt them. Some of them even seem to enjoy all the traveling. So, don't be afraid to take your new horse places and do things with him. He's a totally different individual. You will learn to love and appreciate him as such.

Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 12, 2003 - 6:42 am:

Pam would it be possible to post the necropsy report or would it be easier to fax? My fax number is 336-643-0833.
DrO
Member:
Creed

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 12, 2003 - 6:49 pm:

I can post it - I will create a PDF of it and attach it to my post, the next time I log on.

I can't say enough "Thank Yous" to Liselotte, Shirley, Janette, Kerry, Sara and of course Dr. Oglesby for responding to my pain! When I am having a weak moment, I glance back at your responses and feel strength again to move on. I am so glad I have joined Horse Advice!
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Thursday, Nov 13, 2003 - 1:03 am:

Pam-11 yrs. ago I lost my "best friend" a 30 yr. old Arabian gelding that had been with me for 28 yrs. He died of an anurism. Even though the cause was "natural" I was devistated. The understanding of my husband (who bought a raspberry bush to plant over Kellee's grave-raspberries were his favorite treat) and the understanding of my horsey friends made my loss so much easier as they understood the depth of feeling you can have for "just a horse."

Since then I've lost two other horses, basically from old age. Each time my horse friends-several of them from the internet-have helped me through.

You do recover and go on, but even after 11 yrs. I still miss Kellee at times. I've owned, and still do own, quite a few horses since. Each one is different and from each one I learn something. I try to apply what I've learned as I go down the road.

Member:
Creed

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 18, 2003 - 4:50 pm:

I am not having any luck sending the PDF - I am not sure what their limit is on file size - so I am going to fax it to you or do you have an email that I can send the PDF?

The rasberry bush was a really neat idea!.... Maybe there is something I can do to remember him by. Thanks Sara!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 19, 2003 - 6:16 pm:

Hello Pam,
Send it to horseadvice@horseadvice.com
DrO
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Dec 18, 2003 - 8:30 am:

I received your report Pamela and reviewed the case you ouline above. It does seem possible that your horse died of a primary NSAID toxicity but one question remains unanswered: what was the initial cause of the depression and inappetance and did that predispose to toxicity. The lack of other lesions and the normal lab work up above suggest not, but do not prove it.

Though the degree of the lesions and rapidness with which they formed does indicate an unusually sensitive horse we must point out that 4 grams bute and 1 gram (20cc Banamine) flunixin divided twice daily would be considered a substantial overdosage, though I think some horses would tolerate it for 2 days.
DrO
Member:
Byron

Posted on Friday, Dec 19, 2003 - 7:51 am:

Dr Oglesby,

I recently posted about my ponies death from Acute Toxic Colitis. (Mestinon)

I have just read this post and I now have goose bumps because it is so similar to the lead up of our ponies illness.

He was also given under the vets instructions bute. 4grams x 2 x 1 day then 4 grams x 1 each day after that which was only 2 days then he became very ill.

He was seen by the vet on the Saturday, he was healthy and happy but had broken out in allergy welts as had another pony we owned (which was not treated) he was given a penicillin, anti-inflammatory and anti-histamine. The vet also told my daughter to ride him really hard to make him sweat and this would help the lumps go away. This did not make any sense to me and I did not allow her to ride him. On the Sunday he was a bit nervous which is not like him but otherwise O.K. On Monday the lumps had gone down but he was very quiet. He is normally quiet but also checky. On Tuesday he was very quiet again and tossed his feed bucket over and would not eat his dinner, I thought this was because he could taste the bute powder in it but I sensed something was wrong. So I gave him some hay and he was happy to eat that. I was a little worried and went up to the stable to turn of the lights at about 10.30pm and I offered him a carrot but he would not eat it!!!!! The pony was only 11.2 hands high a pure Welsh A gelding, 10 years old in perfect health that would usually eat anything.

The next morning, Wednesday at 5.30am he was shaking and would not eat his breakfast but was happy to eat the hay when offered. I checked his temp. and it was normal, but I was really worried. I rang the vet at about 6.30am. The vet arrived at 12noon. Temp was normal again, vet mentioned that he was not shaking, but I said he was earlier. Was given other penicillin long acting because I cannot give injections and another antihistamine and was told to continue the bute (which were in satchels). Within 2 hours of the vet leaving the pony was shaking all over. I checked his temp. it was 41. I rang the vet but he said he would not be able to come out again until about 11pm that night. So I floated him up to other vet. The other vet did not know what was wrong with him but took blood and rehydrated him. He was drinking and eating a little grass, manure was normal. Temp still 41. Gums were slightly pale. I was told to ring at 9am the next morning to get the blood results. I was also given an antibiotic in power form to give him when I got home. This was given at about 6.30pm. I checked him hourly during the night and at about 5.30am he had a cow paddy manure. I rang the vet at 9am but the vet was out. I left a message for him to ring me. At 11am I rang again and the vet had just come in and he went to check the results. When he came back to the phone he said "quickly take the pony to the equine hospital, he is gravely ill". He had a very low white blood cell count and was losing protein rapidly. When we arrived at the hospital they said he was toxic. He was in the hospital 10 days and we took him home for his last day (he was so happy to be home) and he was put down at home.

The vets at the equine hospital believed it to be the penicillin that induced the colitis.

Dr. Oglesby, in your opinion do you think it was the penicillin or could it have been the bute?

I feel I cannot let go of this until I know what has happened.

Thank you for all your help.




Member:
Byron

Posted on Friday, Dec 19, 2003 - 9:59 am:

Sorry to alarm you. I mean the the satchel of bute was 1gram not 4gram. I was thinking mls when crushed and made into a paste because he would not eat.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Dec 20, 2003 - 8:09 am:

Janet, the critical finding in your case was a overwhelming infectious colitis and yes penicillin can upset the bowel flora as to induce such a problem, for more see Equine Diseases » Colic and GI Diseases » Diarrhea in Horses » Clostridium Colitis.
DrO
Member:
Creed

Posted on Saturday, Dec 20, 2003 - 10:14 am:

Janet, I am so sorry for the death you too experienced! I know everything you must be feeling and how you too will question all the medical moves you made. I still go over my horse's death and what would I do differently. In my case above, MSU contributes his death from the combination of the 2 meds - Bute and Banamine at the same time. If one or the other is used by itself in recommended doses, most people don't seem to have any problems. I am amazed at all you have done to help your pony - he was very lucky to have someone like you as a owner!!

Dr. Oglesby, I thought I posted a note back to you but it must not have gone through?? You are more than welcome to post the Necropsy report, I am in hopes that I too can help someone in the future.
Member:
Kthorse

Posted on Saturday, Dec 20, 2003 - 7:34 pm:

Dr O , How many cases of penicillin Indused colitis have you see in your practice?
How commen is this?
Curious as my horse is on penicillin shots for 7 days at the moment. He is also on tri hist. I am sure my horse is fine but I never realised penicillin can cause problems. We learm every day.Do recomend anything for horses on penicillin to help with stomach problems?
Thank you
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Dec 21, 2003 - 9:42 am:

Concerning antibiotic induced colitis: 1 penicillin and 2 TMP-SMZ cases. Concerning allergic reactions to penicillin: 2. This happens often enough to make the casual use of antibiotics foolish in horses. Also there are several other reasons to avoid the casual use of antibiotics,we go over these problems in Equine Medications and Nutriceuticals » Antibiotics and Antimicrobials » Antibiotic Use in Horses: An Overview .
DrO
Member:
Byron

Posted on Monday, Dec 22, 2003 - 9:51 am:

Thank you Dr. O.

I have now read these articles, but feel more confused i.e. why was he given penicillin when there was no temp. and no infection? Or is it normal procedure to give penicillin to a horse with welts or was it needed because of the swelling down this face?

Thank you Pamela, yes I feel I am going insane with the questioning but all does not seem to add up. I have lost all confidence in every thing I do with the horses and I miss my little man so much. He was meant to be with us forever. We even bought our 5 acre property for him 4 years ago so he could always be with us.

I now feel anxious and worried about the pony we still have to the point of it being abnormal. It is that bad sometimes I feel I can no longer continue to own a horse. I try to hide the way I am feeling because of my daughter and I quess people just expect you to move on but I could never go through this again. My fear is that it could because I still do not know what has caused it. And what if there was a need for the other pony to have penicillin. If he ever broke out in the same lumps/welts would he need to have penicillin.

I now have more respect of the doctors when they will not give you antibiotics for a cold.



Member:
Dres

Posted on Monday, Dec 22, 2003 - 10:41 am:

"He was meant to be with us forever. We even bought our 5 acre property for him 4 years ago so he could always be with us."/

we had done the same thing for my mare.. she fell in the pasture and broke her neck, thus we had to put her down...but i have her off spring that will be with me for ever..

i really understand your pain..

Ann/
Member:
Suzym

Posted on Monday, Dec 22, 2003 - 11:59 am:

Dear Pam and Janet ~ Please accept my most sincere condolences on your losses. It's been almost two years now since I lost my precious equine partner of 20 years to bone marrow failure that no one - not even the staff at Purdue - could even understand, let alone treat. So, I can completely understand how hard it is to have no answers.

Janet ~ I too purchased acreage especially for my horse so he could live "at home." I'm more fortunate than you in that he had 10 years at home with me, and he was 25 years old. Still, I'd fully expected and wanted more.

I also understand your paranoia about your other horse and your feeling that you are afraid to even own horses anymore. I went through the same thing - still feel it to some extent.

The good news - for both of you - is that it does get better. It doesn't go away, but it gets better. I have a wonderful new horse, and he does more than anything else to help me heal. I don't know what I would do without him.

If there's anything more we can do to help, please visit us at https://www.healingrainbow.com

God bless,

Suzy
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 23, 2003 - 6:46 am:

Janet, your questions about the bigger issue of future use of antibiotics, they are answered by seeing both sides of the issue and achieving balance. Have you quit driving because people are killed in accidents? Have you quit swimming because people DrOwn? Have you quit eating because people have allergic food reactions and sometimes die? Thousands of horses get penicillin without any problems but, like everything else in this world it is not 100% safe, its use should be confined to clear indications for its use. I apologize if this seems a little harsh with the way you are feeling now, but I sense a need for a bit of rational thought here and hope this helps.

As to why your horse was given penicillin you will have to ask the person who gave it. For more on hives see, Equine Diseases » Skin Diseases » Hives, Wheals, and Urticaria in Horses.
DrO
Member:
Byron

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 23, 2003 - 9:53 am:

I get the point, thanks.

It's not harsh (just a slap on the face to say wake up).

I read the article you suggested but unless I have missed something - there was no mention of penicillin as a treatment?

I don't really want to question the vet I guess he is the expert (who am I to question) but I think I will. I am sure he will have some reason but I do think it will make me feel better.

To Ann and Suzanne, thank you......... that is what is so wonderful about this site. So many kind and caring people.



Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Dec 26, 2003 - 10:20 am:

Let us know what the vet says about the antibiotic use.
DrO
Member:
Creed

Posted on Sunday, Jan 4, 2004 - 11:13 am:

Thank you for all the wonderful supporting comments and stories!

I thought I would tell you about a Christmas gift I received this year. On Christmas Eve I received a box. In the box was a few items and a letter. The letter inside was from the lady who raised Creed and whom I stayed in contact with throughout my time with him. She always looked forward to my call every month.

She said, "Enclosed you will find a small leather halter that was Creeds when he was a colt and his baby brother's (Levi), also, Creed's wolf teeth I saved and his ultra sound picture. I feel you deserve these more than I do. Also, Jimmy and I would really like you to have Levi, who will be 2 years old this spring. You will find a video of Levi inside - You need him and he needs you"

I can tell you I cried the whole time and I never received anything so special. I will be getting Levi in May. It will be the closest I will ever be able to get to Creed.

Pam
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Jan 4, 2004 - 5:31 pm:

An incredible gift Pamela.
DrO
Member:
Dres

Posted on Sunday, Jan 4, 2004 - 5:32 pm:

THANKS for sharing your gift with us... it brought tears to my day as well....

Cheers.. Ann
Member:
Parfait

Posted on Sunday, Jan 4, 2004 - 9:48 pm:

Pam,

How wonderful for you and for Levi! That is such a lovely story, so gracious of her to part with her baby like that...anyone who keeps baby halters and teeth doesn't give away horses easily. She must be quite certain you are the one for him (and he for you).

So there sits Levi,
unknowingly munching hay
while he is acting
as the silver lining.

Best Wishes for many happy years together!

Kerry
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Monday, Jan 5, 2004 - 10:46 am:

Tears are in my eyes as well...how very wonderful for you!!!!!
Member:
Paul303

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 6, 2004 - 8:24 pm:

AHA!!!! So there really IS a Santa Claus!!!!!
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 6, 2004 - 9:31 pm:

Pam-I just read your post re: your gift, and have a lump in my throat. It is just "meant to be." What a lovely, caring and understanding person Levi's owner is. You must let us know how you and Levi get along. He is just what you need right now. He is indeed a "Silver Lining." Keep us posted and Happy New Year!
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