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Discussion on If it isnt one thing...
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Member:
Sefiroth
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 16, 2003 - 8:00 pm:
Today my vet was (re)scheduled to come out to do a muscle biopsy to test for EPSM on my percheron. Got out to the barn to get the horse ready and found him DrOoling bloody DrOol. He appeared fine yesterday morning when I visited to check on him and meet the lady picking up my pony I sold to her. I didnt look in his mouth but he wasnt DrOoling and no lesions were apparent.
Today you can see one of them with out even touching the horse's mouth. He has about 5-6 lesions on his lips and gums that I can see. I'll be taking a photo tomorrow and post it here for your opinion.
The vet looked his mouth over and said it looks like Vesicular Stomatitis, which is usually self limiting, caused by a virus, didn't give me any antibotics, and said to give him bute, and carried on with the biopsy.
So of course as soon as I got home I came here to read up! Should this be reported to the proper authorities? The article sure makes it sound more of a problem than my vet did.
What is Lugol's iodine? I'd like to flush out his mouth and keep the sores clean. He's not currently off his feed. When I came back to the barn after going home to get my bute after his biopsy was done, he was at the round bale munching away. He scarfed up the grain with the bute in it as normal too.
Can this be passed by nose to nose contact? Or is it more sharing a drinking source? Currently Golly is by himself, but I just sold my pony mare yesterday who was kept with him. I'll be calling her new owner to tell her to quarentine. How long before she might start showing signs?
~Sharon
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Oct 17, 2003 - 10:53 am:
Though occasionally serious disease can result, yes your vet is right most of the time this in not a life threatening illness in horses. If your veterinarian feels this is VS yes I believe this should be reported so they know what is going on. Yes this disease is easily passed directly from horse to horse but I am unsure of the time from exposure to clinical signs. We are in the mountains this weekend so I am away from my library, when I return on Monday I will see.
DrO
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Member:
Sefiroth
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Posted on Friday, Oct 17, 2003 - 12:56 pm:
Here's the pictures I took today. They arent actively bleeding today. Just look REALLY sore! But he's still not off his food thankfully. He's getting 2 grams of bute twice a day.
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Member:
Sefiroth
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Posted on Friday, Oct 17, 2003 - 12:58 pm:
Here's two shots of the biggest one I can find. This was the one that was really bleeding yesterday.
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Member:
Mwebster
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Posted on Friday, Oct 17, 2003 - 1:42 pm:
Sharon, what amazing photos. What an education for the rest of us, thank you!
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Friday, Oct 17, 2003 - 1:53 pm:
ouch.. they look like our canker sores...
thanks for the photos...
Ann
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Member:
Sefiroth
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Posted on Friday, Oct 17, 2003 - 6:49 pm:
Yes that most certainly does have to hurt. I'm amazed he's not off his feed even with the bute. I'd be a screaming lunatic from the pain if I had that many canker sores, that big and I tried to eat. Its incredible how much pain these guys can tolerate.
After the vet finished his biopsy, it started to sprinkle and looked about to pour. The vet said to see if we could drag him back in the pasture and under the shed. Golly had been given his sedative only about 20 minutes before. As soon as I took the lead rope and gave a pull, his head came up and he walked perfectly normal back to his shed. I mentioned he must have been lighter than the vet thought, and he agreed saying he doesnt do many drafts and probably didnt give him as much as he should have. Yet Golly never twitched the whole time the vet was working on him. He did use plenty of local though as well.
DrO,
Is this only contagious when the sores are open and erupted? If so I'm hoping we got the pony out in enough time that she hasn't got it as well. I wouldnt wish this on my worst enemy! I'm also flushing his mouth with water, then a diluted Nolvasan solution, then water again. Is there anything else I can do to make him more comfortable or speed healing? Cold or warm compresses? Who should I report this to in my area (Southern Illinois) and if I do will they come out and look at him or just take my word for it? What's the procedure?
~Sharon
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Friday, Oct 17, 2003 - 9:23 pm:
Sharon,
I wonder if that baby Orajel or Chloraseptic would be okay to try . . . check with vet first.
Both are topical anesthetics, I think.
Holly
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Member:
Paul303
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 18, 2003 - 1:36 am:
Perhaps you could ask your dentist for some topical anesthetic that you could dab on with a Q-tip. It would knock out any pain for about 20 minutes...maybe make him comfortable while he eats. In addition to the bute, of course. You might want to pick up a box of disposable gloves to use when you treat him.
There is a Zovirax Cream ( acyclovir ) 5%. Dr.O might know if it might have some effect on these sores....it's an anti-viral that is helping to ease cold sore and canker sore attacks for patients in our dental office.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 18, 2003 - 9:49 am:
Though some of temporary amelorative treatments might make you feel better they will do little for the horse. If this is VS it is a temporary self limiting problem. Acyclovir has not been very helpful in the treatment of non-herpes viruses but I so not know if this might be an exception.
The last time I saw anything like that foxtails in the hay were responsible. These are the very common long yellow seeds that are very common in pastures and fields. The seedhead is covered with thousands of tiny hairs that feel soft but the indiviual hairs become easily embedded in the gums. But the diagnosis was easy as there were foxtail hairs embeded in the gums and you could see them sticking out of the ulcerations. They are small enough as to not be able to be seen on these photos so you might check if there has been a history of exposure.
DrO
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Member:
Sefiroth
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 18, 2003 - 7:58 pm:
I looked for anything sticking out of the ulcers. Golly wasnt exactly cooperating well and kept jiggling. The surface of the ulcers themselves look kind of furry. I cant say I saw anything poking out, but I'm not sure exactly what I'm looking for anyway.
By the time I got done with him, it was too dark to go poking through the hay. I did get different hay from a different source so its possible.
~Sharon
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Member:
Paul303
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 18, 2003 - 9:28 pm:
Boy, the foxtails sure sound like a more reasonable explanation. Where could Golly have picked vesicular stomatitis up?
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Member:
Sefiroth
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 18, 2003 - 11:10 pm:
That's the same thing I've been asking. My vet said they can carry the virus for a while with out showing signs. The only strange horses he's come in contact with are the ones at the trainer's. Those horses havent had any ulcerations like this in the past 3 years that I know of and no new horses in the past year other than Golly. But then the inflamation in his gums around the teeth dont look to me to be blister shaped either.
Do the foxtails need to be pulled for the blisters to heal if it is foxtails I wonder?
~Sharon
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 19, 2003 - 10:46 am:
Though you should be able to visualize them with a good pair of eyes and good lighting, if you remain uncertain try a magnifying glass and yes the horse must be still.
Yes they need to be pulled, I sedate pull up a cooler to sit on and then remove them with homostats.
For pictures of the foxtail plant, and most importantly the seed heads, run a Search of the Site and Net. I believe they are on the the KY extension server.
DrO
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Member:
Sefiroth
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 19, 2003 - 9:18 pm:
Poking through the hay I found these, pictured below. They dont seem big enough for foxtails? But there were plenty of them.
The ulcers today were much less red and angry looking, and seem to be less swollen and painful. Golly held still pretty well but the light wasn't good. I still dont think I saw anything embedded in the BIG one, but the one on his gum I may have. Some of the much smaller ones on his lips seem to be well on the way to healing.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Oct 20, 2003 - 4:57 am:
Yes I think that looks like a Setaria sp. seed head, though not as often pictured as the giant foxtail.
DrO
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Member:
Sefiroth
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 11, 2003 - 9:22 pm:
Just an update, Golly's all healed up even though I never found anything to pull out. My vet said he's seen other cases of VS in the area, and that its poorly reported around here. He still believes it was VS and not foxtails. He said foxtails dont leave perfectly round lesions like these.
Who knows. I'm just glad my horse is better!
~Sharon
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 12, 2003 - 6:48 am:
Delighted to know things are better.
He is wrong about the shape of the foxtail lesions: I have seen them round. But your lesions are large for foxtail lesions and usually with foxtails they are more numerous with some of the ulcers coalescing. But the diagnosis is easy with good light, careful observation, and a good pair of eyes: the little foxtail hairs, I think the proper term is "awns", are sticking straight up out of the ulcer.
DrO
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Member:
janieb
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Posted on Friday, Jan 18, 2008 - 3:58 pm:
I have just been involved in a horse rescue and have a total of 5 new horses. I have kept them separated from my own horses, although they can visit over the wire fence, and I am concerned because one of the mares was (unknown to me) preganant and she miscarried. My farrier found the poor little fetus (about 2-3months developed) when he came to try to trim hooves. I was told that rhinovirus is a common cause of spontaneous abortion--if no other symptooms are present should I worry? I am sure these poor creatures have not have regular vaccinations. I am going to worm them tomorrow because I am sure they haven't been wormed for ages (if ever) and I found a few ticks on one of them. My trainer assures me that worming will take care of the tick problem.
Next problem: foxtails. A bale of hay was fed without my supervision and it was full of foxtails. Several of the horses were slathering (not bloody, thank goodness)long ropy DrOol and I have found some embedded foxtails which I will attempt to remove with a tweezers. Does this require veterinary intervention? No one is off of her feed or acting sick. Thank you.
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Friday, Jan 18, 2008 - 9:37 pm:
Jane, if these horses are not in very good shape, read Dr. O's articles on worming debilitated horses before you start deworming. Better safe than sorry. Good luck and kudos to you for taking them on!
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Member:
sross
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 19, 2008 - 5:35 pm:
We had a problem with foxtails in the hay at the barn where my horse is boarded last year. Once the problem was diagnosed with the help of our vet, all the affected horses were treated without the vet, basically just removing the awns from the lesions. The lesions seemed to bother us owners much more than the horses.
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New Member:
cowboy77
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 9, 2008 - 9:23 pm:
Both of our horse have swollen bleeding mouths, with Cherokee having more swelling and even what looks like sores inside and outside of mouth. They have been getting worse over the past week. Cowboys mouth is swollen too but I cant tell yet if he has sores. The pictures listed by Sharon Thomas look like what Cherokee has. Could this be Vesicular Stomatitis??
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Monday, Nov 10, 2008 - 2:07 pm:
First, I would check to see if they have any access to weeds in pasture or hay. Vesicular stomatitis is not found often and is a "reportable disease." Are there any sores at the Coronet band? Are there any cattle on adjacent lands that are slobbering from their mouths or that seem unwell? V.S. can also be in pigs.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 11, 2008 - 8:21 am:
Welcome Jacqueline,
I noted you are in CA and I don't believe VS is in CA at this time, or at least not being reported. The pictures that Sharon has uploaded are consistent with any chronic severe inflammatory disease of the mouth's mucosa and not diagnostic for any particular disease. Something is irritating your horses mouth. I explain the most common reason I see this above but a thorough review of your horses environment and habits should give a clue. If not a veterinary exam is indicated.
DrO
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