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  Discussion on Vet is stumped over horses' swollen legs...help?
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Member:
Mrose

Posted on Thursday, Oct 30, 2003 - 1:52 pm:

Of the 9 horses we have at home, four have been afflicted with swollen legs (2-4 depending on horse) swelling in sheath or in front of udder on some, "cowpie" stools, bruising on 1-2 feet (in 3 horses) no fever or other symptoms. A yearling and a 3 yr. old had fevers (102 & 104) the 3 yr. old had rapid breathing, both had slight diarrea and slightly runny noses (mostly clear.) One mare has diarrea (cowpie) and no other symptoms. I don't know if their problems are all related and our vet is baffled.

The first case was the end of Aug. with a gelding. We discovered him in the a.m. just not looking right. Went into field for closer look and hind legs and sheath area were extremly swollen. He also seemed somewhat depressed. Was not standing in laminitis pose. His hocks were also swollen and he seemed extra sensitive to touch. It hurt him to move so took forever to get him into barn. No vets were in town as was Labor Day weekend. I checked his feet and legs and saw no signs of cuts etc. I gave him bute, padded his feet, and put cool gel and pressure wraps on his legs. No sign of fever and other vitals o.k.

I did a lot of reasearch on your site and many others and came up with Hoary Allysym, although no one I spoke with thought it was around here. I did find one weed that maybe could be H.A.

Vet saw him on Tuesday. Did hoof test and exam but no symptoms other than the swelling which was then down quite a bit. When gelding had feet trimmed he had bruising on one hind and one front foot about 1/3 inch in fr. white line, one spot looked like grown out abcess.

Since the gelding, three other horses (mares) have shown varying degrees of same symptoms, all about 2 wks. apart. Also, one mare that was in same field as gelding still has diarrea (cowpie) but has shown no other signs. The other mare that was in his field had pretty severe swelling in hind and one front legs. She also developed an abcess in one front foot. One other mare (white feet) has a bruise on the hoof wall of L. hind about 1/3 in. down fr. coronet band.

I don't know if the two younger horses have something related or not. They are on antibiotics currently.

Although together once in a while, the horses are usually split up into groups and rotated between four 2-3 ac. pastures that are mostly grass with a little alfalfa and dandylions. There are a few weeds, but not many.

The two younger horses have been in seperate field for several weeks.

We live in area of high desert and are surrounded by alfalfa fields. A neighbor irrigates by flooding and his ditches overflowed 2-3 times and flooded 3 of our fields, but this was a couple of mos. before this outbreak.

All the horses are kept current on shots inc. this yr. WNV. Shots were last given in the spring.
Because we are a breeding farm with a closed herd we worm as needed, minimally 4x/yr.

All horses with swelling have been treated with pressure wraps, bute and cortasteriods.

Any good ideas?

btw-all horse were on pasture, are now getting a mix of alfalfa, oat and grass hays. Some get Eq. Senior or Junior, others get handful of oats with added vitamins (Select) They have free choice white salt blocks, and have mineral licks. We live in low selenium area with adobe like dirt.

Member:
Dommay

Posted on Thursday, Oct 30, 2003 - 2:01 pm:

WOW!
I am not that experienced in this, but is there a chance that the flooding of neighbors ditches possibly brought some type of chemical into your fields?
Good luck to you and hope all is well soon!
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Thursday, Oct 30, 2003 - 5:16 pm:

Have thought of that and am having soil and hay samples tested. However, neighbor raises alfalfa for horses and cows, so would doubt the water would be a problem. Also, would think that if flood water was the problem it would have shown up earlier. But, am looking at anything I can think of.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Oct 31, 2003 - 6:54 am:

Hoary allysium is a common pasture weed in some parts of the US yet poisoning rare, it appears that large amounts should be present before you consider this as a possibilitly.

The history suggests an infectious disease like Equine Viral Arteritis though limb edema is also common with flu and herpes. However, thorough exams and complete laboratory work ups should be done to rule out other possibilities like poisoning.

Bute and corticosteroids should be used together cautiously as the steroids potentiate the possiblity of ulcers from the bute and may make recovery from a infection slower.
DrO
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Friday, Oct 31, 2003 - 8:59 am:

Dr. O-
My vet talked with someone (sorry, don't remember names) at both Davis and CSU and concluded that blood work would just be a waste of my $. But, wouldn't a blood panel show infection? And the more involved panel show Igg, etc. which would show allergic reaction/immune system problems?

He will be back in his office today so I'll be talking with him again. (he's an overworked man, the only large animal vet in large ranching area) Because horses didn't exhibit any other symptoms he is leaning towards a reaction to a bacteria, but not infection per se. Horses have been given one injection of Pderf (?) when symptoms first appear, then a total of 3 bute per day. I've continued the bute until swelling is gone. What would you reccomend instead? Should they go on antibiotics "just in case?" Do you think there could be a connection between the 2 young horses and the older ones with swelling? Can EVA just "float in the air?" Dr. said there have been no cases anywhere near us & our horses we have here at home don't travel.

Thank you for your input. (btw-you sure get up early!)
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Oct 31, 2003 - 9:50 am:

Not only would it help rule in or out infection but if there is a toxic principle, it has to work through the impairment of a organ system. Blood work will help elucidate organ insult and dysfunction. The only time a CBD and routine blood chemistires (SMA 16 or something similar) would be a waste is if the diagnosis is already firm and/or the severity judged to be mild and self limiting. Any other opinion is absolute nonsense.

Because I am not ther to examine the horses I recommend you follow the recommendations of your vet. The information I provide you with here is "food for thought" and you can discuss these with your vet.
DrO
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Friday, Oct 31, 2003 - 11:56 am:

Thank you so much. I felt we should do blood work also and infact blood was drawn fr. my latest victim last week. When I called to ck. on results is when I learned it hadn't be sent due to the afore mentioned reason. So, when he's back in his office this afternoon I'll discuss it again with him. Although it will take awhile to get the results back, at least we might find out something for future reference; and, besides, it's my money!
Member:
Canyon28

Posted on Friday, Oct 31, 2003 - 2:02 pm:

When my mare was poisoned by eating just a few plants at a rodeo, her liver readings went off the chart! She also had sun scald and blistering of her nose and other white areas on her feet, due to the toxic nature of the plants. Her feet never swelled though. She went off her feed (hay) and I almost lost her. Luckily I had pasture and she wanted to eat fresh grass. I put her out all night and up in a stall during the day. she only ate grass hay for a long time to get her liver back to normal. She was 22 at the time, and did recover, but the poisoning affected her feet , which had been road foundered before I got her, and she never was right in her feet again. I lost her to coffin bone infection two years later. By all means, have the cbc test done to check for liver and kidney damage.
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Saturday, Nov 1, 2003 - 12:05 am:

What was the plant? I was unable to get together with vet today, so will try tomorrow a.m. I'd like to know what's going on for several reasons. Luckily, I've caught the horses within a few hrs. of when the swelling first starts, except for the first horse. I worry about the feet and after affects esp. My old (24)friend/broodmare/riding partner was the latest one affected. When I fed around 7a.m. she looked fine. A couple of hrs. later her hind legs were swelling. I immediately gave her a steriod shot and started her on bute and wrapped her legs. She seems to be doing fine, except for now minor swelling and the bruise on her hoof wall.

I searched thru the hays again and it all looks really good and clean. So, I'll wait for the test results and see if anything shows up (on hay and soil) I'd be surprised if anything did, though. I'm leaning towards a virus or bacterial thing and I personally think the runny noses and fevers the two younger horses had was connected-tho' my husband warns me not to jump to conclusions.

Member:
Mrose

Posted on Saturday, Nov 1, 2003 - 12:09 am:

Dr. O- I really appreciate this board, the opportunity to exchange ideas, and your advice. We live in a rural area with only one large animal vet. Inspite of the fact I think he's a very good vet, it's nice to get other ideas/opinions.

Thanks.
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Sunday, Nov 2, 2003 - 10:35 pm:

Dr. O-
Is it possible to get Pupura Hemmoragica without any contact with Strangles? Can staph be in the soil when there has been no strangles on the property? Can it be carried by flies, or...?

Now my older mare,whose swelling was much better yesterday, is swollen up again, and there is yellow crusting, (like serum seeping from bug bites,) all down the backs of her hind legs from hocks down. We have had no horses going to shows, no outside horse in. The "boys" were home for a couple of weeks, but their trainer says she has had no strangles at her place, and if I remember right, they were vacinated early in the year.(I'll check my records tomorrow) I don't vaccinate my horses at home (for strangles) because I thought they had to come in contact with an infected horse.

I'll try and get my mare into the vet tomorrow. Meanwhile, I gave her some bute and some Tucoprim (sp?) as couldn't get hold of vet until tomorrow. And, rewrapped her legs.

Sorry I'm always so "wordy." thanks,

I can't get my vet to agree to doing blood tests. How does one tactfully argue with their vet?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Nov 3, 2003 - 6:42 am:

Yes purpura occurs with other antigens as explained in the article » Equine Diseases » Lameness » Swollen, Painful, Legs. But you are confused over the causen of Strangles. Strangles is a specific type of Strep not a Staph. Other species of strep and staph are pretty much everywhere. Note that purpura is a allergic type reaction and not seen in groups like your problem.

No need to argue, just ask him what is causing this and what is the prognosis. If he does not know ask him what can we do to find out or at least rule out some conditions or get an estimate on severity.
DrO
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