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  Discussion on Dormant herpes & back pain
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Member:
Rama

Posted on Friday, Oct 31, 2003 - 11:12 am:

Dr. O,

As I understand it, many horses carry the herpes virus in dormant stage from either exposure as a youngster or from the vaccinations themselves.

Can the dormant herpes virus become active if for some reason the horses immune system is compromised even though the horse is current on all vaccinations?

Could this virus in it's mildest form cause irritability and sore back muscles?

My eight year old Arabian mare whose been with me since she was three is having some problems. I make sure all of my horses have the flu-rhino vaccine spring and fall. She got into a kicking match with another mare about four weeks ago. Ended up with a capped hock on her right and swollen tendon on her left leg. Was never lame. Continued to rip and tear in the pasture. Under saddle, she began to resist moving up to the trot. Became so difficult she refuse to step off without bucking and or throwing her head and rearing. I called the vet out to see if there was an underlying medical problem or if it was a matter of respect and training. She did flexion tests, hoof test(no problem there), checked saddle fit(was fine - had her saddle custom fit). The mare was a 1 on a scale of 0 - 5 reactive flexion on the right front. Her reaction to having her back palpated was to DrOp away and cringe. After reviewing our training program my vet said she could not see why the horses back was so sore. We are currently on muscle relaxers and bute for this week then two more weeks of muscle relaxers. Off organized exercise/training this week, ground work next week, riding the third week.

I've been racking my brain trying to figure out the source of her muscle soreness. I remembered being told non-specific back and rear end pain could come from a flair up of a dormant herpes virus.

Your thoughts please?

Thank you for your time.

Becky
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Nov 1, 2003 - 8:58 am:

Hello Rebecca,
Currently there is no support for the idea that herpes virus is the cause of a sore back as the principle sign. You may have mistaken talk about the neurological form of EHV-1 which is a primary cause of hind end incoordination (» Equine Diseases » Nervous System » Equine Herpes Encephalopathy).

I know from personal experience that back pain can be both delayed and chronic from the time of the actual injury. What seems to happen is that the injury itself is not that remarkable but later stress causes spasms of the back muscles which are very painful. It may have been that episode with the other horse caused a stretched or even torn muscle during the bucking. You may also find it takes more than several weeks for this to get better.
DrO
Member:
Rama

Posted on Saturday, Nov 1, 2003 - 9:48 am:

Thank you. Boy, if she has torn or stretched back muscles it's going to be difficult to tell when the muscle has actually healed. She's going to be anticipating pain under saddle. How will I know?

Becky
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Nov 2, 2003 - 9:13 am:

You are going to have to use the problems you have identified to diagnose the problem. Of some help are some of the techniques described in the diagnosis of back pain that are discussed in » Equine Diseases » Lameness » Diseases of the Spine, Back & Pelvis » Lower Back Pain in Horses. Judging the possiblity that there may be anticipated pain making it hard to know whether it is "really painful" or just "expected to be painful" will require experience, judgement, and patience.
DrO
Member:
Rama

Posted on Monday, Nov 3, 2003 - 3:06 pm:

Thank you DrO.

I went back and re-read the articles under >>Equine Diseases>>Lameness>>Diseases of the Spine..>>Lower Back Pain in Horses. Now I have another concern EPMS. I went to the further reading suggested - Rural Heritage Vet Clinic. When discussing switching to a higher fat, protein , low carb diet for horses with EPMS the vet listed corn, soy oils etc and rice bran as fat sources. She suggested staying away from flax seed as a fat source. Do you know why? My horses are currently on a higher fat diet consisting of Omelene 100 and a flax seed product along with pasture grass and a good quality timothy/orchard grass hay.

Becky
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 4, 2003 - 6:46 am:

We have often discussed flax and the oil derived from flax, linseed oil, along with the advantages and disadvantages. Run a search using the whole site search engine and you will find plenty to read.
DrO
Member:
Rama

Posted on Thursday, Nov 20, 2003 - 11:12 am:

Follow up to Starfire's condition. We've completed the three week Robaxum this past Tuesday.

As I had suspected I've experienced some resistance while riding. She has been extending at the trot on line and liberty. Moves freely. Under saddle we walked all of last week. Monday had to have my dad lead-line us a bit to see if she was willing to go. By Wednesday night we were moving out at a nice extended walk. I'd decided to ask for some trot Thursday. Thursday night did not go well at all. She kept stopping and attempting to buck. At this point I had to question whether she was truly experiencing pain or if attitude/training was the problem. I spoke with our trainer and she suggested I ride her in a passenger lesson on line with dad controlling her "go". If she is willing to trot carring me on line but won't when I ask then it is more than likely a training issue.

This past Monday we set it up and she did indeed move out at a trot on line. She still wiggles her ears and hesitates but moves out. After warming up at liberty and on line, I asked her to trot for me. She immediately attempted to bunch up & buck. As I became more instistent she did trot off. I thought at this point we needed to address the training issue. I planned to continue warming up on line then going off line and asking for more and more trot. Tuesday as we were warming up on line she began DrOpping her head to the ground and stretching her neck out to trot. Very peculiar. She would continue trotting with her head and neck in this position. When we went off line I asked her to lift her head a bit and she became very agitated. I just don't know what to make of this. Perhaps I had her saddle in an uncomfortable place that night? I wish I had thought to take it off and reposition it to see if that made any change.

I spoke with our vet Wed morning. She said at this point there wasn't much more she could do to evaluate the problem at the farm. Thought the odd way of going - trotting with her head down like a "peanut roller" may indicate a problem with her neck. I told her I was going to have my trainer come down and ride her to see how she feels to her. I don't feel I'm good enough a horseperson to be able to evaluate the pain vs training issue. The vet thought that would be a good idea. She also said our next step would be a referral to either Ohio State or Dr. Genovese in Cleveland, OH who specializes in lameness issues.

My sister who is a medical doctor suggested I might want to just give Starfire more time to heal. She pointed out Starfire is eating well, appears to be happy, runs and plays in the field why not just give her some more time without riding? Dr O, I remembered you said it might take more than just a few weeks to heal a muscle pull or tear.

Any thoughts on our current situation would be much appreciated.

Thank you,
Becky
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Nov 20, 2003 - 6:41 pm:

The horse that begins fighting and bucking wildly for unexplained reasons has been one of the most frustrating problems I have come up against in my practice. I have twice seen riders have been put in very dangerous situations just trying to assess such a problem. If pain is thought to be the issue all I can offer you is the suggestions for further work up given in the article on back pain. Since this is a behavorial issue you might consider some of the long term sedation techniques even if pain is the issue perhaps it will allow you to assess this by dealing with what is basically a behavioral problem at this time. The best recommendation I have is to remind you that you have goals and if this horse is looking increasingly like it cannot meet your goals perhaps this horse needs to find someone who likes challenges.

I do like the idea of getting the trainer involved to have another evaluation but if pain is the problem your MD sis is right when it gets right down to it all you can do is wait while tissues heal. We do acupuncture on these because a pretty well done study showed positive effects. But the more I study it the more I think we are just buying time while the horses heal.
DrO
Member:
Rama

Posted on Friday, Nov 21, 2003 - 4:59 pm:

Dr O,

Thanks so much for your thoughts. I'm going to give Starfire more down time from riding. Will contiune stretching exercises for her back and neck and ground work to continue developing her respect. I've asked my trainer/instructor to fit us into her schedule for evaluation.

I do have two Tennessee Walking Horse mares to ride and work with. My 17 year old is my main ride and lessons horse. The 7 year old is green under saddle and ready for more ride time.

I want to work through this difficulty with Starfire to make me a better, more knowledgeable horsewoman. It is hard to find enough time to work with all three and do my 40hr work week. My world revolves around my horses so I try to do what is best for each.

Becky
Member:
Rama

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 6, 2004 - 4:06 pm:

Dear Dr O.,

An update on Starfire:

My instructor/trainer came down this past Saturday to evaluate Starfire for pain or training issues. Starfire had 3 months off from riding at this point with regular ground work.

The good news - her back appears to be healed. On the other hand she has (I have!) a major attitude/respect problem. Gina was quick to pick up on it and suggested I up the ante in Starfire's groundwork to see how she would react. Well it wasn't pretty. When asked to circle at the canter maintaining gait, Starfire threw a fit bucking and squeeling etc! Worked on that until she was more respectful then rode awhile. Had bucking issues there too. Gina found ways to encourage her to continue trotting on, not giving her time to think about stopping and bucking.

I've got my work cut out for me, but am so grateful this is now a training issue and not a serious health issue.

You may see me posting over in the Horse Training Forum from now on!

Thank you so much for all your help.

Becky
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