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  Discussion on Founder or Bruises
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Member:
Racefan

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 18, 2003 - 6:42 pm:

This is my second visit. Original post was sat spring when my 3yr.old Arab gelding became lame 3 weeks after trim and shoeing, had persistent fever of 104-106 and hoof abscesses for 8 weeks. Final diagnosis was never confirmed but he did founder with 4 degree rotation. He recovered nicely and we believed our problems were behind us but apparently not. This episode began just as the first. He was trimmed and shod 3 weeks ago. We also received 4 inches of wet snow just as in spring. I came home to find him very lame. Gave him 2 ounces butte and stalled. Next day he was much worse, practically immobile. Butte did little to give him any relief. His urine was rusty brown. Vet said this was a result of tying up, most likely from pain. Vet administered Banamine, a muscle biopsy was done but no results as of yet. AST levels were normal but she said they return to normal several hours after tye up. Blood and urine tested normal, no virus or bacterial infections indicated. Radiographs were done and she was quite alarmed. Although no rotation was indicated, the front edge of coffin bone was dangerously close to coming thru sole. It seems he was trimmed very short, 2 ¾ inches and heels were very high. The angle was 65 degrees. He was standing on his toes. Vet blocked feet and determined they were definitely source of pain. Ferrier came to clinic 2 days later and she instructed him to cut heels as low as possible which was only about ½ inch as he was already so short. This gave us an angle of about 56 degrees and helped level coffin bone in the hoof capsule. Soles are very thin and level with ground but she hoped this could give him some relief. Shoes were left off. As instructed we are soaking daily w/ Epsom salt and 2 ounces butte daily. We are also coating soles with iodine to strengthen them. He is in sawdust stall at night and padded E/Z boots during the day in paddock. It has been over a week and he is still very-very lame. Walking is nearly impossible as he doesn’t want to move front legs and is in much pain to do so. There is no heat in feet, no digital pulse, and I cannot find any abscesses. No swelling in legs or hocks, no fever, no rocking or lifting feet, no traditional founder stance. He actually stands quite square. Eats and drinks well and evacuates correctly. No colic problem or urination difficulty. He is very trim and his diet is monitored very closely. Grass hay and 3 lbs. Strategy daily is his only rations. Condition is 5 or 6. What am I missing or doing wrong?. Vet doesn’t seem to think it is founder and I don’t think founder fits either but am not sure. Are bruised soles from snow pack from very short trim possible? If so, shouldn’t the padded E/Z boots and butte help ease his pain? I have read all the articles on founder, bruised soles, and abscesses but nothing really seems the answer. I am really afraid of losing him. He is still practically immobile. Any advice to ease his pain and maybe a prognosis would be much appreciated.
Member:
Kel4s

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 18, 2003 - 7:23 pm:

Brian,

Could he be having an episode of laminitis? Laminitis has different causes. You might try the Cushings group at Yahoo. They have good advice on laminitic horses. Good things for you to try nutrionally. They also recommend putting 2" styrofoam on horses with this amount of pain. I didn't need to do it, but they have quite a few testimonials that it helps.

Kellie
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 18, 2003 - 9:39 pm:

I also have had good results with using styrofoam pads (cut fr. sheet of styrofoam with knife) Make sure feet are clean and tape pads on with duct tape. You can even put pads inside the EZ boots if they are big enough.

I've never heard of snow causing something like this. I have known of horses getting trimmed too short being really sore and lame-and if angles are wrong, being too short can cause muscle strain and soreness also, as well as bruising and abcesses. 65 degrees is pretty severe; just about no toes. Is this farrier the only one available to you?

Did your Arab start this episode with a fever like he had last spring? Are there any other factors that might be different than the "norm" for this horse? A lot of things seem to show up in the feet that you wouldn't think of as being related to a foot problem-ie. fevers, stress, toxic reactions, etc.

I had several of my horses get very sore feet and a couple of them got abcesses when they had an allergic reaction to a strep virus (at least that's what we think it was) Could it possible be something like that?

Sounds like your vet is "on the ball." I'll be following this. Sure hope you figure it out. Poor guy! (both you and the horse) Good luck!



Member:
Paulette

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 19, 2003 - 6:56 am:

I have a foundered horse and have been through the ringer with her. Right now she is abscessing. That is the most painful for her. Sometimes the abscesses are so deep that they are hard to detect until they get closer to the surface. I now have the help of a great team that consists of Dr. Bowker from MSU...a great farrier..Keith Seeley and Tommy Lee Osha of Oshaproducts.com. These guys will help you. They have created pads and booting for all types of hoof problems. The cool thing is that they don't cost an arm and a leg and you get the teams personal help. I can't tell you how many times they e-mail me..call on the phone..etc. They really care. Keith works from photos of your hoofs and will advise your own farrier as to proper trim for ultimate healing. Just do a search on Google for Osha hoof products and I'm sure that their web site will pop up. If you can't find them..give me a shout and I will dig up their phone number. Good Luck...Paulette
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 19, 2003 - 6:14 pm:

Brian, I am not sure where to start with this. Most important you do not have a good working diagnosis so I would recommend getting a second opinion. I don’t think a the snow is likely to be responsible. Most horses with soreness from being trimmed to short are sore right after the trim not 3 weeks later. Some of the thing you state above are either incorrect or don’t make sense. The muscles enzymes do not clear from the blood in several hours. In fact some presist for weeks. For more on this see the article on » Equine Diseases » Lameness » Diseases of the Upper Rear Limb » Tying Up, Rhabdomyolysis, and Shivers (EPSM).

I also cannot understand how a horse could not be rotating yet almost havine the edge of the coffin bone coming through the sole? Also if the horse is actively foundering and has thin soles you do NOT want to lower the heels: it further thins the sole and puts extra strain on the coffin bone through the action of the deep digital flexor tendon. For help with reviewing what you are currently doing and other treatments for founder see the article Equine Diseases » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Founder & Laminitis. But most important right now is to get a good diagnosis.
DrO
Member:
Scooter

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 19, 2003 - 10:04 pm:

I have had trouble with my foundered horse and snow, especially wet snow when they have shoes on. They get those darn snowballs and puts extra pressure on the sole and also pull the tendons. I had one get very very sore from that. Our treatment was stalled with styrofoam and 2 grams bute a day. took about a month to get better, don't know if snowballs were your problem but something to ponder.
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 19, 2003 - 11:10 pm:

Diane-have you tried those pads that go under the snow and have a sort of ball that pops the snow out with each step? In an area where the temps. go up and down so the snow gets icy & sticky they work pretty good.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Nov 20, 2003 - 9:21 am:

Diane's point is good. If this is your problem you almost certainly will see the large snow ball adhered to the bottom of the foot. Did you see this and just not post it? For more this and the pads Sara describes see the article on Winter Care.
DrO
Member:
Racefan

Posted on Thursday, Nov 20, 2003 - 12:39 pm:

Dr O.
Yes, the gelding has had snowball buildup in his feet. Each night, I cleaned it out and he was stalled on sawdust. We are still waiting on further test results from rhabdomyolysis, it was 5 days after tye up that test was taken. The concern for the coffin bone so close to sole was because of very short trim and vet believed too much of sole was removed and angle of 65 degrees left toes very short. Vet wished heels to be lowered to give angle of 56 degrees. I now have him on Styrofoam and gel pads and he is moving very slowly but has very much pain. I can see it in his eyes. I wish to thank all the other posters and I am using their ideas and suggestions. The snow pack may well be the cause but I am still puzzled. I have read all your articles on founder and have radiographs in front of me. I can see no DrOp in coffin bone from front of hoof wall. The two straightedges will not meet and have about 1/8 inch difference over a 12 inch rule. The vet says the rotation is very minimal. I am comparing radiographs with my mare and the large difference is the hoof angle, she is at 56 degrees and the coffin bone is nearly level with bottom of hoof. His angle is 65 degrees and the coffin bone is setting at an angle with the bottom of hoof. His heels are very much higher than hers. I don’t know how to get a good diagnosis as no one can pinpoint the direct cause. The clinic I visit has 3 very good vets as well as access to the University of Colorado. I can’t begin to list all the tests this horse has been thru but no problems have ever been detected. The common factors are both episodes happened 3 weeks after trim, both after 4 inch snowfall, both had snowball, Fever of 106 was detected on first episode, no fever on second, temp is 98.6 to 100.4., I did not check hoof length or angle on first episode and chose to trust my Ferrier which may prove my mistake. I am trying to learn all I can to help him. I wont give up on him.
Member:
Juliem

Posted on Thursday, Nov 20, 2003 - 3:40 pm:

Brian, when your farrier trims your horse, does he use his knife and remove sole? Only minimal sole should be removed. Some farriers still like to make the bottom of the hoof look concave. Some horses are more flat soled than others, and great care must be taken not to remove too much sole. I know there are proponents of removing sole, but both my vet and the two farriers I work with refer to this as "scooping" and are very much against it. They feel it leaves too little protection for the tip of the coffin bone and tends to leave a horse very sore.
Member:
Racefan

Posted on Thursday, Nov 20, 2003 - 4:00 pm:

Yes the farrier does cut out a lot of sole with his knife.The concave is about 1/2inch. This seems a lot considering how short he is trimmed.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Nov 20, 2003 - 6:52 pm:

I don't think of the snowball theory as likely to be a primary cause of founder. More reasonable would be snow balls exacerbating a already diseased or weakened foot. Though I cannot remember seeing such a case it is logical.

It is very frustrating for me to try and diagnose a problem over the internet when the information is just not there for a diagnosis. If the problem is localized to the feet and bilateral, you cannot go very wrong treating it as a founder following the suggestions we give. Just continue to recheck with a open mind to be sure that other disease are not being missed.
DrO
Member:
Racefan

Posted on Saturday, Nov 22, 2003 - 3:25 pm:

DrO;
Received the test results from muscle biopsy and gelding does have rhabdomyolysis. Vet seems to think he may have tyed up as a result of pain in his feet. I have read your articles on rhabdomyloysis but I do not see this as a cause listed in your articles. Should I allow him time to recover from founder before any changes in his diet? He is slowly recovering and I am reluctant to make any changes but I also do not want a reoccurance of tying up. Thanks again.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Nov 22, 2003 - 7:26 pm:

Your posts get stranger and stranger. No I do not think foot pain or founder is a likely cause of rhabdomyolysis, though it does happen the other way around rarely. If your horse has foundered he certainly needs to be continued to be treated for that, including nutritional recommendations.
DrO
Member:
Suzeb

Posted on Sunday, Nov 23, 2003 - 3:55 pm:

Hello Brian,
I hope I don't cause you any further grief with my post, but here is what I think might be going on.
As Dr.O said, pain does not cause tying up.
Tying up will cause pain.
Confirmed EPSM by muscle biopsy is problem #1 and can be treated with diet changes. It won't cure his condition but will certainly make life more comfortable.

Problem #2 is your horse's feet. I get the feeling from what you are describing in your post is that your horse may have club feet. Too tall of a heel will certainly put your horse in a broken forward unbalanced position, and force the coffin bone down towards the sole of his foot.
This could be a mechanical founder that you are looking at and not a systemic founder induced by too much "candy".
If I may make a friendly suggestion, I would get his feet stabilized first, before you put him on a weight gaining diet. Some horses don't always do this when oil is added to their diet, but a majority do.

The tall heels on your horse has got me thinking that maybe there is some tendon/ligament contracture going on or you seriously need to change farriers and possibly get a second opinion from a lameness specialist vet. If I am way off base here, Dr.O will kindly clean up my suggestions. I hope this helps Brian. Another good resource that the Horseman's Advisor provides is "The Farrier and Hoofcare Resource". Go down to Classifieds and Ads on the main menu and click on the farrier and hoofcare resource. Run a search on club feet and see what turns up.
All the best and good luck. Susan Bilsky

Member:
Racefan

Posted on Tuesday, May 18, 2004 - 3:31 pm:

Dr O;
Just thought I would DrOp you a note and inform you of the progress with my gelding. It has now been over 6 months since my last post and I have learned more about the equine hoof than I ever knew existed. There is tons of usefull information available and I encourage every horse owner to attend clinics,read,watch and learn all that you can each and every day. Your horses life depends on this. There is also much misinformation and many so called farriers out there that simply do not know or care about your horses well being. You must ask questions and use your own knowledge to sort thru them. We have since concluded that my geldings problems were the result of too short of trim, extremely steep 65 degree angle leaving him standing on his toes, and scooping of soles. This practice resulted in a mechanical founder and tearing of laminae and abcesses in both front feet. I have since became confident in my own knowledge and now do the trimming on both my horses myself. With the help of radiographs,a Rudisso gauge, and a very helpful vet the gelding is now 100 percent. He has rotation of 5 degrees and to compensate for that he is set at a 51 degree angle. I trim him every 2 weeks to make certain he stays correct. I leave his soles as natural as possible, about 15 to 18mm. I am a believer in natural hoof balance even though 6 months ago I had no idea what it was. My wife rides him every couple of days and the difference in him is unbelievable. He no longer throws his head, rears, or bucks. He is starting on barrels. We recently took him on the trail for the first time in 6 months, a 2 hour ride on very rough terrain. He is not shod, no boots, and he performed flawlessly,even running uphill for over a mile. Not even a hint of lameness during or after event. He races the mare around the pasture and I believe for the first time in over a year he is pain free. He is on no special diet and eats alongside the mare. The rhabdomyolysis episode has never returned and vet still thinks it was an isolated event caused by him trying to carry all his weight on his hind quarters with front feet so sore. Is there regrets after my experience? You bet, I regret the thousands of dollars spent, my assumption that a licensed farrier is a good farrier, but most of all I regret the pain my horse suffered needlessly and ultimately that responsibility is on my shoulders. On the plus side we emerged much stronger. The knowledge I have obtained I will always have and I vow to keep learning every day.
I still have my horse and he is happy and the bond of trust we have in each other cannot be explained but I will always be a rich man because of it. And finally I can once again enjoy the beauty and grace of watching him run thru the pasture, head and tail in the wind, like only an Arab can. Once again, Thank You and all the other posters for their help.
Brian Evans
Member:
Suzeb

Posted on Tuesday, May 18, 2004 - 4:15 pm:

Way to go Brian! It's encouraging to hear how you did not give up on him. Don't be too hard on yourself about what happened, you were only doing what you thought was best at the time. You truly are a rich man. Thank you for sharing your experience, as we all learn from this.
Enjoy your horse.
Susan B.
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