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Discussion on Chiropractic in general
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Member:
Belhaven
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 23, 2003 - 8:56 am:
I was thinking about chiros the other day-just in general. I have been to one and it does make my back feel better-at least for awhile.
I know many SWEAR by them and others "ain't buying"--I know Dr O, you have mentioned there are no scientific studies supporting chiro care.
I have heard of people watching a horse move before "an adjustment" and then say he moves better after one...how can this be? Other vets have said it would be impossible to manipulate a horses spine under all the muscle and fat, etc.
I guess I was wondering, Dr O, if you have seen a horse before and after and if you saw any difference-if so, how do you explain it, and if not, is it just the power of suggestion that makes us think there is a change?
Also why do you think there are no studies? Seems to me it would be worth putting one together~
Like I said, just something I am curious about on a general level-wondered if there was any legitimate studies out there proving either way.
Guess I am feeling quite intellectual during the holiday season!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 24, 2003 - 7:55 am:
The lack of good studies is probably based on the lack of objective and testable diagnostic criteria to test. Often these folks are addressing subtle undersaddle disorders that are not easily seen, they are subjective problems.
Have I seen chiropractic address a specific spinal or muscoskeletal disease and effect a cure...no.
DrO
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Member:
Belhaven
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 24, 2003 - 1:15 pm:
How does it happen then that so many people insist the horse moves "straighter" or "better" or carries better-could there be some muscular release that is temporary?
Again-just something i find interesting.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 24, 2003 - 1:42 pm:
Leah, have you ever heard of a chiropractor treating race horses? Why not?
There's a lot of horses, a lot of knowledge, a lot of problems and a whole lot of money involved on a race track. If something would really help, wouldn't they widely adopt it?
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Member:
Yitto
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 25, 2003 - 9:28 am:
Hi Leah, I thought I would jump on here with a few thoughts of my own. You opened the discussion with you have gone to a Chiropractic and it did help. Why wouldn't it help for a horse or dog? Although, unfounded scientifically there is something to it, as with many natural medicines and treatments. For those who have experienced it they know for a fact that it helped relieve the pain. I work with animals on a daily basis and I have seen where chiropractics have been the only answer. I am not saying it works for everyone, nor can I tell you why, where or when it will help. I have seen it help, and for some they never have the problem again.
The comment that why don't the race horse world adopt Chiropractics, well they have although it is covered up by using "Sports Medicine Therapy". I have found that Race Horse owners are the first to seek answers to the problem, whether it be traditional or natural. Because of the strict drug laws with race horses, they seek and adopted anyway that will keep their horses in top condition and running. I know many who use chiropractics, acupuncture, acupressure, magnets, herbs ect.
Because chiro is thought to be vodoo or fool witchy it isn't widely open to use in the medical world. There are very few vets that will use it, they scoff at the thought. I have been is 2 car accidents both of which my neck was injured, the first one really never got better, the second I used a chiro where after three treatments I was out of pain. I haven't had a problem since. Thus a cured to me that maybe this could help some problems for animals. I know of a couple great animal Chiropractors that have indeed helped in some medical cases where traditional medicine didn't. It isn't a replacement for seeing a vet, in fact a vet must always be involved. Most of all not the answer to every medical problem.
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Member:
Westks
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 25, 2003 - 10:51 am:
I know that a chiropractor can help , but my reasons for not going for me and my horses are that it is a short term fix and every time the bones are reset more scar tissue/damage is added.
For a horse that needs to have chiropractor often, I would stop working in that type of event or retire horse altogeather because the horse either because of injury or conformation is always going to have a problem.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 25, 2003 - 1:05 pm:
I find this an interesting subject, but I am afraid I am a bit confused.
Massage is one thing and chiropractice is something else, right?
Massage is a relaxation aid and a very good way of detecting discomfort or injury. The more the subject, human or animal, lets it through to it's brain, the better it works.
Chiropractice, the way I have understood it from a couple of encounters in the past, claims to correctively rearrange muscles, ligaments, even bones. That is a joke in my opinion.
Darbie, competition horse owners too often believe in spells as well. Winning trainers do not, can not afford to...
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Member:
Penner
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 25, 2003 - 2:17 pm:
Actually, there is some research supporting spinal (osteopathic) manipulation in humans at least, depending on the medical situation in which it is used. IMHO, I see it as a way to avoid NSAIDS (motrin etc) in people with a history of ulcers, or other diseases that preclude using commonly prescribed medicines.
From the New England Journal of Medicine:
A Comparison of Osteopathic Spinal Manipulation with Standard Care for Patients with Low Back Pain, Andersson G. B.J., Lucente T., et al.
N Engl J Med 1999; 341:1426-1431, Nov 4, 1999
ABSTRACT
"Background The effect of osteopathic manual therapy (i.e., spinal manipulation) in patients with chronic and subchronic back pain is largely unknown, and its use in such patients is controversial. Nevertheless, manual therapy is a frequently used method of treatment in this group of patients.
Methods We performed a randomized, controlled trial that involved patients who had had back pain for at least three weeks but less than six months. We screened 1193 patients; 178 were found to be eligible and were randomly assigned to treatment groups; 23 of these patients subsequently DrOpped out of the study. The patients were treated either with one or more standard medical therapies (72 patients) or with osteopathic manual therapy (83 patients). We used a variety of outcome measures, including scores on the Roland–Morris and Oswestry questionnaires, a visual-analogue pain scale, and measurements of range of motion and straight-leg raising, to assess the results of treatment over a 12-week period.
Results Patients in both groups improved during the 12 weeks. There was no statistically significant difference between the two groups in any of the primary outcome measures. The osteopathic-treatment group required significantly less medication (analgesics, antiinflammatory agents, and muscle relaxants) (P< 0.001) and used less physical therapy (0.2 percent vs. 2.6 percent, P<0.05). More than 90 percent of the patients in both groups were satisfied with their care.
Conclusions Osteopathic manual care and standard medical care have similar clinical results in patients with subacute low back pain. However, the use of medication is greater with standard care."
From Annals of Internal Medicine:
Willem J.J. Assendelft, Sally C. Morton, Emily I. Yu, Marika J. Suttorp, and Paul G. Shekelle
Spinal Manipulative Therapy for Low Back Pain: A Meta-Analysis of Effectiveness Relative to Other Therapies
Ann Intern Med, Jun 2003; 138: 871 - 881.
Gist of Abstract (Medline is down today):
"The researchers searched the medical literature by using computerized databases to find studies that compared spinal manipulation to one of seven categories of other treatments for low back pain: general practitioner care, pain killers, physical therapy, exercises, back school, a collection of ineffective therapies (for example, traction, bed rest, and heat therapy), or sham manipulation. Sham manipulation meant that the patients thought they were getting spinal manipulation but were not. The therapists just touched their backs without performing the specific movements involved in real spinal manipulation. The researchers found 39 studies that met these criteria and collected information about each study and its results. Then they used a method called meta-analysis to combine the results of studies that looked at the same category of treatment and calculated the effectiveness of spinal manipulation compared with that treatment.
The researchers found that Spinal manipulation was more effective than sham therapy and therapies already known to be unhelpful. However, it was no more or less effective than general practitioner care, pain killers, physical therapy, exercise, or back school."
These are two very respected journals in the field of Human Internal Medicine. However, I can't say if a veterinarian or human physician would apply these study results or not.
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Member:
Belhaven
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 25, 2003 - 3:23 pm:
Interesting feedback so far. I guess I find it interesting that one groups says "oh yes you CAN manipulate the spine" and another group says "no way can a person move a horse's spine."
I hope to hear more feedback!
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Member:
Jojo15
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 25, 2003 - 10:00 pm:
I think one difference for us is that we have a vertical spine while our four legged friends don't. I am sure there has to be reasoning behind this and one reason why you can't do comparisons based on human studies.
Our spines can get compressed together just from gravity and time. So, really any human study that could prove chiropractic beneficial really doesn't mean much for me as acceptance for using it on my horse.
With that said. I have found interesting results from chiro and accupuncture for my horses. (me too!) But nothing is ever permanent. You have to keep at it. My insurance covers chiropractic treatment, so if the insurance companies are coming around, i see the animal kingdom can't be far behind. They just need to do the studies. And find a horse that can talk..
I know most of the vets down here (S. Florida) who practice chiro and acupuncture. And these guys are all Race track vets, also. If the race track people didn't want it, I bet the vets wouldn't offer it, study it, or go continuing ed classes for it. So the demand on the track is definitely there.
I find that massage is the most beneficial used with acupuncture. My one horse hates that, but afterward she is calmer, strides better, etc. You can see the 5th lumbar that sticks out and to the side. And has caused her pain in the past. Her tail is always to one side which is probably from nerve damage. But, she is still the best trail horse out there.
It really is uncharted territory.
joj
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Dec 26, 2003 - 6:10 am:
We have reported before on both positive and negative clinical reports concerning human chiropractic and possible reasons for the positive and negative effects reported with equine chiropractic, for more run a search on "chiropractic".
Concerning the human results published above there are no similarities in the practice of human and equine chiropractic, in human chiropractic:- Diagnosis is based on specific first hand complaints by the patient
- Radiography used to document lesions, guide manipulation, and rule out problems that should not have chiropractic manipulation
- Manipulative procedure techniques based on hundreds of years of experience.
None of these key elements are present in equine chiropractic and so these human clinical studies in no way support or refute the usefulness of the practice.
DrO
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Member:
Imogen
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Posted on Monday, Dec 29, 2003 - 2:37 am:
Almost all equine chiropracters recommend a period of rest for the horse after the treatment ranging from box rest to walking in hand for a month etc. I do not see how you distinguish any improvement caused by the rest from anything which could hypothetically have been caused by the manipulation.
To go back to the original question, I'd be interested to know how Dr O views a period of rest - has this had a noticeable effect on horses suffering from eg back complaints in his experience?
After all, traditional medicine often "prescribes" this for humans with sore backs. The problem is, being impatient and busy creatures, we're not very good at complying with the treatment. Somehow I don't think most horses have too much problem with a prescription of rest...
All the best
Imogen
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Dec 29, 2003 - 6:03 am:
Rest is critical, for more on this see, Equine Diseases » Lameness » Diseases of the Spine, Back & Pelvis » Lower Back Pain in Horses.
DrO
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Monday, Dec 29, 2003 - 8:45 am:
Talking "natural" therapies, a very experienced race trainer once told me that a very critical factor for a horse recovering from minor "self-healing" damage is keeping the animal in even ambient temperature, preferably warm, for as long as the healing takes.
Does that stand scientifically?
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Member:
Belhaven
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Posted on Monday, Dec 29, 2003 - 9:01 am:
Imogen-perhaps rest used to be suggested but not anymore! Around here, chiros have regular scehdules for horses-say every 4 weeks. The horses get adjusted and back to work~
I do agree thought with the "rest theory"-if a horse is rested how do you know if it was the treatment, meds or just the rest  My dad is always saying, "Give them time-animals have a way of healing themselves."
So-this is still what is confusing to me---so many people talk about "he dragged his toes before an adjustment and now he doesn't", "he traveled crooked before"," he couldn't get his leads before."
I doubt all these owners are creating a better performance-so what exactly is happening? This is what is still so confusing to me-if the spine can't be moved, is it a muscle release? Is it possible something is happening that makes the horse go better?
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Member:
Eoeo
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Posted on Monday, Dec 29, 2003 - 11:03 am:
Have used a chiropractor for horses, an accuscope which works tremendously, but the horse needs to be able to be in a spot where they can lay down and roll freely. They fix themselves to my way of thinking most of the time along with rest for the mind as well as the body.
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Member:
Taxiridr
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Posted on Monday, Dec 29, 2003 - 9:05 pm:
Our riding programs should be like physical therapy for the horse. We should be building him up. For horses who are not being treated for an injury and are being ridden, if he is perpetual need of adjustments, are we asking honest questions about our riding and of course our tack? Getting the evaluation by a chiropractor is helpful, but why is it that some horses need the chiropractor to visit as much as the farrier? Does this chiropractor ever speculate what causes the need for adjustment? Problem solving for me always starts with evaluating my seat.
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Member:
Belhaven
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 30, 2003 - 8:39 am:
Oh very good point Amy! That gives us all alot to think about...I was actually thinking about rehab regarding one of mine-setting up a "crosstraining" program for him-truly treating him like I would myself if I had time off. Good supples muscles must do a horse a lot of good!
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Member:
Aewheele
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 30, 2003 - 2:29 pm:
I keep coming back to what someone said early in the discussion. Chiropractors who work on people maniplate the human skeleton. How would a chiropractor do that same type of manipulation to a horse? They're huge & not easily contorted...
Have I missed something?
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