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Discussion on Bruised feet-4 What is this? pic
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 5:18 pm:
Dr.O I don't know if I should start a thread under something else, or keep this mess altogether??
I have been picking Hanks feet since the removal of his pad and his whiteline/ inside sole just crumbles. It almost looks like thrush of the whiteline and have been treating it as such. Possibly from holding moisture from the boots/pads? or is this White line disease? His hooves don't have that hollow sound when I tap them and it is more at the quarters where those darn flares are. I could scrape away all day and the crumbly stuff comes out. His walls/horn are
not crumbly and seem in decent shape. His soles also will crumble away on the outside edge, at the quarter. Both feet are the same. I dug as much as I dare out and treated it with betadine. I also rasped the outside edge of the flares a little....getting my feet wet doing that, but it wasn't as hard as I thought it would be. Could this be caused by the hoofwall separation from the flares and his hoof being moist from the pads/boots? Here's a pic. which really don't do the crevices justice. Now that I scraped that crumbly stuff out dirt and stuff are getting stuck in them. On a good note he doesn't seem quite so sore barefoot today...but sore enough and the pulses are back. HELP
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 7:17 pm:
If its not just in the white line area . I would say yippee. Its that false thick sole you were worried about. Nature is doing it course. Its healing, Its coming off. Nature is great. I am not Dr O and if I am wrong Dr O correct me. Mine did that when it was the start of healing and the start of nature doing concavity. Keep up with the flairs and you will notice more of this happening as his feet return to a more healthy state. I dont think you should put anything on it, That will stop it. just scrape away what you can with a regular hoof pick, keep the flairs off and boy oh boy it sounds like good news to me. You want that stuff to come off. It sounds like me he wants to heal and concave. Barefoot can do that. I would be happy if I were you.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 8:00 pm:
It does kinda look like the false sole, since scraping if and rasping lightly, he seemed better. He is walking better also. If that is what it is I am very happy it is finally shedding, as long as it isn't something more serious.
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 10:56 pm:
It looks like the stuff the lady farrier scraped out of Clydes feet, however, she went way to short, and now he is flat footed on the bottom. Was pretty sore for a day or two. Ran around today on them. It does not look like Levi's white line stuff.
It's always something to drive us crazy isn't it Diane?
suz
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Member:
alden
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Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 10:58 pm:
Diane,
I've read and been following Pete Ramey's barefoot trimming methods; which by the way are working great. As I understand it the crumbly sole is a natural process of removing old sole. You'll see it pronounced when shoes are remove because it isn't wearing away as it should. The flares are also a natural process of removing excess horn, the flares will eventually break away. Sounds like you need a good barefoot trimmer.
I have a 25 year old stallion that gets lumps of built up old sole because he doesn't move as much as he used to and he'll get gimpy. I removed them with a hoof knife and he's all better. I guess it's like having a rock in your shoe.
Good day,
Alden
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jun 1, 2007 - 6:49 am:
Thanks! That's all very encouraging. My farrier options around here are very limited. The farrier is due 6/11 and I will see what he thinks. I have been suspecting a false sole for awhile. I hope that is all it is. DrO. have you ever seen a false sole? What does it look like? I can't find any pics on the web. Thanks
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Friday, Jun 1, 2007 - 7:14 am:
Diane my trimmer found an awesome barefoot trimmer but she is 6 hours away from you and you would have to take Hank, but she would be able to teach you to trim in between untill he is fully healed then you can do it yourself. kate is trying to find someone closer. Unfortunatly good barefoot trimmers willing to teach for free are hard to find. 6 hours is very far away but I'd let you know anyway. A regular farrier might not be able to do what a good barefoot trimmer can do in regards to getting the feet sound barefoot. I wont go back to a farrier again unless they were willing to do a 4 point trim or a natural hoof trim. Just my oppinion though.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jun 1, 2007 - 7:55 am:
Thanks Katrina, That is way too far away! Hank sure has his ups and downs, he is VERY sore this morning, I hope it wasn't from digging that crud out. He seemed better initially. Last night he was moving almost normal...before bute, without boots or pads.
I did give him his night bute, I really have to wonder why the mornings are so bad for him. He has no heat or pulses in his feet this morning. It doesn't look like arthritis, it looks like his feet are very sore. Watching him it looks like his back feet now, which also have that weird sole...he did have more of a pulse in his backs...maybe I should dig the "crud" out of them also?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jun 1, 2007 - 8:24 am:
Something else has to be wrong with Hank, his backend looks so funky so I just went out and pulled his tail and he about fell over...both ways. Also is stepping on his own back feet and crossing his front when he walks. Calling vet.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jun 1, 2007 - 8:33 am:
Put a call into vet, Dr.O. what if anything should I have him tested for? wnv, epm, ehrirlici (sp)? "tick disease" anything else? He looks terrible. He did have some ticks this spring and they are horrible this year. Thanks
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Jun 1, 2007 - 9:34 am:
Guys, from the photos, I really cannot tell what is normal and abnormal the dirt covers the areas of interest and I cannot really tell shadowing, darker pigment, and crevices. The article on White Line Disease describes its appearance pretty well Diane but if you are uncertain you need a professional opinion by someone who can examine the foot.
DrO
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Friday, Jun 1, 2007 - 10:54 am:
Oh boy Diane, It never ends you pore thing. Sending good luck wishs your way. let us know what the outcome is. The vet I am sure will test for all that it could be I am sure.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jun 1, 2007 - 2:29 pm:
Just got home from work. I gave Hank a half a dose of banamine before I left about 6 hrs. ago. He is normal again, walking fine, pulling back, when I pull his tail...tho not as well as he should be imo. The other 2 pull right back, and Hank sways a bit. I know this is not diagnostic for anything, but it isn't right either!
The only thing different during the day....when he is relatively sound is he has no bute. I was thinking about this today and he gets a gram of bute at night around 8 p.m. he usually is o.k. then. I give him the bute at night because he seems so bad in the mornings. I know this is a little far fetched but could the bute be affecting him? He's been on it since that rabies shot that seemed to have started this whole mess?
AND of course the vet is on vacation in Jamaca, no other vets except small animal.
Dr.O. Hanks foot was as clean as it could be, that is what his sole looks like minus the grass stains on the wall.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Jun 1, 2007 - 6:40 pm:
Diane I am sorry I cannot tell if there is WLD from the photos or if the horse is going to sluff a false sole. Prior to sluffing it it looks like regular sole, once sluffed there is fresh new sole underneath.
Swaying can be a symptom of weakness or incoordination (ataxia) and if in fact your horse is doing this you need to get someone out to examine the horse. As to what to test for this should be guided by the exam for more on this see, Diseases of Horses » Nervous System » Incoordination, Weakness, Spasticity, Tremors » Diagnosing Incoordination, Ataxia and Weakness. This would not be a usual symptom of bute problems.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jun 1, 2007 - 6:56 pm:
Thanks Dr.O. I wish I could have somebody out. Vet will be back Mon. until then I will keep an eye on him and read the article. I am not going to bute him tonight to see how he is in the morning, it don't really seem to make a difference. He does have twitching around his nose and lips, where the other 2 don't. His appetite is good, and everything else seems to be working fine....except his backend. If he is crippled in the morning again I will give him banamie. This is so frustrating not to have a decent farrier and 1 equine vet. I guess it is the joys of living in the "sticks" Thankfully I have this website to fall back on...it has been a lifesaver many times!
Thanks again
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jun 1, 2007 - 7:53 pm:
Dr.O. Propioceptive ataxia seems to fit some of Hanks problems, he did have that belly kicking like he didn't know he was doing it also. With that disease doesn't it remain constant? He seems to have "attacks" occasionaly which all began after the rabies shot. If you recall from my post on that he was very incordinated the morning following it, since then it has happened 3 or 4 times.
Before I jump the gun could it be possible his sore front feet are causing this? he is a weird horse and expresses himself differently than most. I have many friends that will attest to this. That's why he is soooo hard to figure out. Thanks again
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 2, 2007 - 7:11 am:
For an experiment last night I didn't bute Hank and put his boots on. He seemed pretty good this morning....not great but good. I guess the thing to do is boot him at night and remove them during the day. Why he is so much sorer in the morning is what confuses me. They are in the same "dry pen" 24/7. He acts like he is drunk in the morning....and sobers up as the day goes on? Other than arthritis which I am 99.9% sure isn't his problem what could cause this "morning "drunkiness"
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 2, 2007 - 10:46 am:
Vet just called....must have got back today. He said he thinks it is probably painful feet. He wants me to lock him in the paddock and put him on a major diet. Hank is still fat he is not DrOpping weight on 3 flakes of stemmy hay a day. The other 2 look wonderful and they are smaller arab types. He said to feed him half a flake 3 times a day, with his handful of pellets/vitamins/hoof supp. He also said if I didn't see an improvement in his "drukendness" by Mon. we would do some testing. He thinks Hank is reacting to the sprigs of grass in the "dry lot" which I guess is possible. He also said he knows a farrier that does wonderful work with horses like Hank with founder and that "special hoof" he said he is very expensive tho as he travels about 100 mi. to get here and does every thing by the book...x-rays every trim if only I was rich! This will still be taken in to consideration, but the vet said to put him on a major diet and see if he stabalizes first and if the drunkedness goes away. He said MAYBE it is worse in the morning because he picks at them sprigs of grass all night? So that's our plan what do you think DrO.? I need another job I think
Thanks
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 2, 2007 - 12:46 pm:
I'm thinking of you and your boy Diane, hang in there!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 2, 2007 - 5:46 pm:
Thanks Aileen, hopefully Monday will bring a "sober" horse, I hate the thought of epm or anything else neurological. How's Brave?
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 2, 2007 - 10:09 pm:
Hi Diane, I updated his thread...
Does Hank have any other symptoms? I'll be thinking of you and Hank and hoping your vet is right... just his feet hurt.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 3, 2007 - 8:15 am:
Hank was better this morning, I padded his feet last night and he was locked in the grass free paddock. Took the pads off this morning so his feet can dry. He is still walking very tenderly (but not as bad). The swaying and cross legged walking wasn't there this morning either. He had no bute last night. vet said to give him banamine instead, which he got yesterday morning (half dose) So hopefully the vet is right. He said the tail pull thing and the swaying was weird....but he knows what a drama queen Hank is too.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 3, 2007 - 8:48 am:
Dr.O. I researched the farrier my vet mentioned, and he is listed on the hope for soundness web page as certified and attended recent seminars. I will bite the bullet and try to afford him. Before I get another farrier that is expensive, I was wondering if you could look at the website and see if that trimming technique would be good for Hank. It looked good to me, but I don't trust myself anymore. I know you don't have time to be reading web pages, but an opinion would be GREATLY appreciated. I don't want to jump into something that will make him worse and I really can't afford (but will) if it would help him. Thanks
Here is the website. https://www.hopeforsoundness.com/
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 3, 2007 - 9:03 am:
Diane it is not the time that is the problem so much as the question itself. I cannot judge from photographs alone exactly how a horse needs to be trimmed and I cannot judge from a website whether this farrier will be able to properly trim your horses feet. The Hope for Soundness techinque and shoe line is good for some horses with chronic heel pain but whatever technique is used it will require looking at the foot understanding what you are seeing and properly applying well established principles to the foot you see.
DrO
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 3, 2007 - 9:52 am:
Dr O is right. Also You have been burned and so don't trust so easily. I think you should Try and trust in this person. If you keep on worrying and don't trust someone your horse will never get better. I know its hard after all you and Hank have been through. Just say ah I have found someone and he will help my horse Yippee.
Think good positive things not negative. At least try.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 3, 2007 - 10:24 am:
Thanks, after shifting more thru the website, it would seem Hank would be put in shoes again. I know the vet said this farrier uses the NB shoe and doesn't have any barefoot. I would still like to try to get Hank pasture sound barefoot and use the boots for riding.
I think at this point I am going to get him thinner and TRY to leave him barefoot. The farrier I use right now really doesn't trim to bad, but I am less then enthused with his shoeing at this point. I guess if I get to the point of thinking Hank needs shoes I will try this guy. Thanks
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 3, 2007 - 12:30 pm:
Hanks false sole is coming off!!!!! I lunged him a little barefoot and he was full of himself...no pain killers, no boots, soft ground tho. I thought it odd he be so happy without the boots so I checked his feet and took the hoof pick to it and it just started crumbling away. In the second pic, hopefully you can see a little "hole" just above the point of the frog, that is his new sole!!! It is HARD and shiney. I didn't want to force anymore off then what would crumble away. This pics don't do justice of course....but it is like seeing his hoof being reborn. He is moving relatively well barefoot, I sure hope this is a good sign! Here's pics of his new sole emerging. It really is amazing looking in person. He will remain on his diet and no grass, but I think this was a good part of his problem, Hopefully this will finish shedding soon.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 3, 2007 - 6:39 pm:
Dr.O. since that sole started shedding Hanks walls are very long all that false sole was filling it to the brimm, could that be why his flares never seemed to go away. I KNOW this is hard to believe but he is 100% on semi soft ground and 98% on hard ground. He is landing completely different....not such an exagerated heel landing, but a normal hoof flight, he is not shuffling anymore he is picking them up and putting down wonderfully. I think when the rest of that "diseased sole" goes the farrier will be able to trim him much better. I HOPE tomorrow morning brings a still sound horse, don't want to get my hopes up. I've been watching him out the window thru the day and am just amazed at the difference. Maybe now I can shut-up for awhile about him, until his next trim of course. If he happens to shed the rest of that sole I will take pics, I find it rather amazing.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Jun 4, 2007 - 6:20 am:
Hello Diane,
That is not exactly what I call a false sole. For me it is a sloughing of a whole layer of sole intact and including the frog where some event has created a bit of a discontinuity, a cleft in the sole. This is chalky degenerative sole material that will accumulates on feet when on soft ground. Its presence is not a cause of lameness but it should be removed when the horse is trimmed because it traps moisture and bacteria. Also as you note, leaving it in place may result in leaving the walls too long.
I am delighted to hear your horse is doing better Diane but it is not because this stuff is coming off and there has always been more normal sole underneath, this is not really a rebirth, but events you would see in any foot that has been allowed to accumulate to much older degenerative sole material.
DrO
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Monday, Jun 4, 2007 - 7:03 am:
Great news about Hank,
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Jun 4, 2007 - 7:05 am:
Thanks Dr.O. I'm not sure what it is but it did seem "diseased" if you look back by the frog it too seemed to want to come off but I was afraid to encourage it. Couldn't the pressure from The accumulated sole put undo pressure on the "good" sole and cause bruising/pain? My other horses have a LITTLE of of that chalky stuff you are talking about that comes right out when I pick their feet....no scraping. Hanks appears to be at least 1/4 in. thick. I haven't seen him yet this morning, almost afraid to look, for fear he will be back to his crippled self. Thanks
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Jun 4, 2007 - 7:52 pm:
Hank is what I would call "pasture sound" now. He's still a little "off" on very hard ground, but he never could tolerate HARD ground, sound or not! I felt a rib on fat boy tonite and he is going to remain on his "starvation" diet until I can find them all. His flank isn't filled in flush anymore. Weight tape tomorrow. I told him when he decides to walk right I will feed him better....incentive never hurts  . I am lungeing him a little at walk, trot, buck, on very soft ground for some exercise, and is sound. he is completely barefoot now 24/7....no pain killers for 2 days and if things continue going the right way, I may try a walk under saddle in a week or so, on soft ground. Would that be too soon Dr.O.? I know his feet are still HOPEFULLY healing from all their trauma. The bad thing is now that I can see how much needs to be trimmed 6/11, I am afraid his boots are going to be too big. I guess a person could wrap the hooves with vet rap to make them fit. Thanks
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Monday, Jun 4, 2007 - 9:18 pm:
Keeping my fingers crossed for you & Hank, Diane, that things continue to get better.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 5, 2007 - 6:07 am:
I have never heard of a horse that was lame from too thick a sole so no I don't think this is a likely cause of lameness. As to walking under saddle Diane, I really don't know, you have a chronically lame horse that as far as I can remember has never had a firm diagnosis made. Not knowing what is wrong, makes giving specific advice difficult.
DrO
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 5, 2007 - 11:27 am:
Diane, Whiskey (mustang) sheds his feet like that almost the whole thing peels off, completely freaked me out the first time. He also has lots of the white chalky stuff in the spring and mother nature resolves that too. The only time he got into trouble was with too long a toe and WLD showed up. Look at the pics of wild hooves and you will see mother natures idea of the "correct" hoof not one designed by man. You seem to be on the right path, pretty soon you'll be chasing after Hank and won't that be great! Cindy
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 5, 2007 - 9:22 pm:
Thanks Cindy, Hank continues to improve daily. I lunge him 10 times each way at a fast trot and take 5 steps on the hard road in hand. He is walking much better on the road and every few days I am going to add a few more steps on the road and a few more circles on the lunge line. I noticed tonite since that "crud" came off his sole they are starting to self trim. One of his quarters broke out, I'm sure because of the flare and long walls. He has lost 25#'s since May 26th and a total of 150#'s altogether which I'm sure is big help in his healing....he still needs to loose 100#'s and now that he can get a little exercise that should come off a little easier. The farrier is coming June 11th and I hope we can get a proper trim on him, I just don't want to get too aggressive and set him back. Hank has the kind of feet that have a fine line for error, he can't be too long or too short.
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 5, 2007 - 10:26 pm:
Good Luck Diane, Levi and I are sending hugs and hopes for continued improvement!
suz
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 6, 2007 - 8:10 am:
So glad to hear things are improving, Diane.
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Member:
annes
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 6, 2007 - 10:37 am:
Diane...congratulations on Hank's weight loss. I am currently going through this with one of my horses and did not expect it to be this hard. (my horse needs to lose about 100 lbs.)You have done a wonderful job with Hank and I am so happy for you both!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 6, 2007 - 6:55 pm:
Thanks for the well wishes...we need them! Hank continues to do well, he was a little "stiff" this morning, but that could be from the bucking on the lunge, he's sooo happy to be able to move again, and get out of the confinement pen he can't help himself.
The weight loss thing is very hard with a horse who gains on air. I am following my vets instructions, and giving him 1% of what his bwt SHOULD be. he isn't getting much and is very unhappy about it. I have noticed a hungry horse moves more looking for some scraps, which is good. If I ever get him skinny I will have to post before and after pics. He can be the fat horse poster child 
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 23, 2007 - 3:40 pm:
Dr.O. Hank is what I would call pasture sound now. Still pretty sore on rock hard ground. He seems to have stabalized for the most part. He has also lost another 14#'s in the last 10 days!!
...he now weighs 1009#,s my target is at least 950#'s.
My question is I don't think at this point he can tolerate barefoof and heal well. His diet pen is very hard. How do I determine when I can put shoes and probably a rim pad on him? The boots are great but they are making his whole hoof and sole soft, which isn't helping matters any.
I know you have told me when they are sound off bute, but what constitutes sound? I don't know if he will ever tolerate the rock hard ground, but in "normal footing" he looks ok, I wouldn't call him 100% (may never be) but he is probably 90% and willingly WTC on pasture type ground. The farrier is due again July 16th and I hate to have him sore in his diet pen that much longer, but I don't want to rush it either....learned my lesson last time. Thanks
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 23, 2007 - 7:47 pm:
What makes you think shoes are the answer.? Why would shoes make him sound if he is not barefoot. I pray that if you do put shoes on he will be sound, for your sake.
But no offends I don't think it will, I think you are grasping at straws. I think you need more patience. However if you do put shoes on I wish you the best of luck. I just think you will be back to square one. There is no miracle quick fix.Sorry, I just think you jump from thing to thing without giving one thing a chance. What ever you try shoes or barefoot please please give it a chance and give the vets and farriers a chance to do what they are trained for. It wont get better over night and that does not mean your vet or farrier are wrong because you dont see results as fast as you want. I feel mean saying this because I really like you and feel your pain with all thats going on, but I really thing you need to make a plan and stick to it for at least 6 months what ever you choose. Forgive me for saying my piece I really do care what happens to your horse which is why I feel this way.
Hugs and sorry
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 23, 2007 - 8:02 pm:
PS Looking back at the last photos the hoof does not look balanced at all look how wide the left is compared to the right. Get a ruler and measure in the picture. Both sides should be equal. If mine is an 1/8 off in balance he buckles in his knees. It could be the picture though. Do you measure how balanced his feet are?
Hugs and again sorry
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 23, 2007 - 9:27 pm:
Don't worry katrina I tell myself the same stuff...no quick fixes, however Hank has been barefoot since last fall except when I had shoes on for a month or two, which would be more than 6 mos. of barefoot and a lame horse.
He was doing wonderful in shoes UNTIL the rabies shot, which I think combined with his FAT, put him over the edge and he foundered.
Remember Hank was VERY SORE all winter, and had those terrible bruised soles, poor thing couldn't walk or get comfortable all winter. When the weather broke I had him shod and he moved wonderful, so I think shoes helped him.
I WANT to keep him barefoot, but I don't want a pasture ornament either.... (I already have 2).
I just don't know if this is the time for barefoot considering his conditions.... thin flexible soles, laminitis etc.
His left front is bigger it flares like crazy, his rt front isn't too bad LOOKING.
I will probably leave him barefoot until next farrier visit, because I am not convinced he doesnt't have an abscess smoldering in his rt front. This afternoon he was VERY sore and picking up his rt front and resting it on the tippy toe. He is also pointing it alot and trying to take weight off it. (could be the left rears problem).
Tonight he is walking around like there is nothing wrong with him....even pretty good on hard ground.
I put some icthamol on his coronet bands, I am afraid to soak because of the soft soles he already has.
I do not blame the vet or farrier...they both lack experience tho, so it is hard....they are trying their best to help Hank. The vets opinion is bute and diet....I AM DOING IT. I asked the farrier last time if he thought Hank would do ok barefoot and he shrugged his shoulders and said we'll see...Hank has never done well barefoot when ridden, but was always ok barefoot in the winter, I Would SETTLE for that.
I HOPE he has a big ole abscess pop out soon and I won't have to wonder anymore. He will have x-rays next month, I am working overtime for them. I just don't know what more to do.
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 23, 2007 - 10:32 pm:
I have no advice, just wanted you to know that I'm thinking of you and Hank and know how you feel.
Take care.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 23, 2007 - 11:26 pm:
Thanks Aileen, when I cleaned Hanks hoof tonight I did find a black, wetish small hole in his whiteline in the rt. front. I dug a little with the hoof pick and he was not happy. If I can find it again tomorrow, I will have the vet out to check it.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 24, 2007 - 12:57 am:
Diane, are you sure Hank isn't just hungry for attention? Geesh, this has been going on for such a long time; and it seems like you just start to feeling like it's resolved, and it flares up or he comes up with another problem. I feel so sorry for both of you! You're doing a great job with his weight loss. It is SO hard to keep one up and off the grass when the others are munching away, or when there's all the green goodness all around him.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 24, 2007 - 6:30 am:
Thanks Sara, all 3 are locked up. they WERE fat too.
The only time Hank has been trouble free since last fall, was when he had the shoes on before the rabies shot.
This is what they get to stare intently at all day.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 24, 2007 - 10:11 am:
Such beautiful pasture, Diane!! Don't give any of your guys your cell phone or they'll be calling SPCA or someone! Actually, my horses aren't much better off. We wound up haying our big pasture and have been spraying and reseeding two pastures, and our last pasture is pretty sparse, so the horses haven't been turned out anywhere near as much as normal. They too have been standing around staring wistfully at all the grass...to say nothing of wishing to be turned out into the main hay fields! Poor things.
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 24, 2007 - 10:49 am:
Wow Diane, that is a beautiful pasture!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 24, 2007 - 11:26 am:
Thanks I would LOVE to ride Hank in it! I am sure there would be a lot of trying to head dive.
This morning brings yet again a very lame horse....the good news I THINK is he is head bobbing and it's his right front...so unless he broke something and you never know with Hank I think an abscess is getting ready to present itself. He has heat and strong pulse in the right front and some in the left also...I'm sure weight bearing is playing a part in the left...it is already compromised. I am going to soak and poultice rt. front today. Pads nor boots didn't help today altho a cold hosing of the hooves seemed to help some. Vet will be called tomorrow if no improvement is seen, AND I will tell him to bring the x-ray machine also....Hank and I are sick of this! We can live on ramen noodles for awhile, tho hubby won't appreciate it. To the store I go to stock up on epson salts, Ramen noodles, and diapers....I hate buying diapers, I get odd looks from people, especially when I tell them they are for the horse.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 24, 2007 - 1:34 pm:
Dr.O. I put a sugardine poultice on Hanks hoof and wrapped it. The hoof is VERY hot and the pulse pounding. He isn't 3 legged YET but very sore.
Should I bute him or not? I never know with abscesses, one thing says to bute so they move, another say it will keep inflammation down and slow the "popping" Thanks
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 24, 2007 - 3:35 pm:
If you think there is permanent lameness Diane, you would turn out when you think exercise will not damage the horse further and believe there will be no further improvement with rest.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 24, 2007 - 4:02 pm:
Hmmm Dr.O. I don't understand that ans. I hope he isn't permanently lame! I'm pretty sure he has an abscess and no turn out for him all 4 legs would be up in the air with all our grass. To bute or not was my question on the abscess thing. Sorry if I misunderstood.
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 24, 2007 - 4:44 pm:
Poor Hank and Diane. I feel for you. I have not been able to ride Levi yet, but so far so good. Unfortunately, I have been letting him out on pasture, and boom, the weight is piling back on. He never stops eating!!!!!!
I am going to have to make him wear his grazing muzzle.
You are in our thoughts.
suz
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 24, 2007 - 6:29 pm:
Diane, I'm thinking of you too... I'm completely guessing here, but if you bute and turnout assuming it's an abscess, and it ends up not being an abscess the running around could hurt him more.
That said, my farrier suggests that if you know for a fact it's an abscess, she knows someone who would bute and turnout and the abscess pops.
I wish you and Hank well!!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 24, 2007 - 6:31 pm:
Actually if this is an abscess it is good news, because once it starts draining I think Hank will be on the mend.
I did give him 1 1/2 grams of bute this afternoon as he was pretty painful, it seems to have taken the edge off anyway. He is still resting his hoof on the toe as much as he can and the pulse is terrible I don't need to feel it I can actually see it.
I just hope it isn't something more sinister, I don't know how he could have done anything else in his dry lot. Thoughts of the coffin bone sinking thru his sole keep going thru my mind...but I always think the worse anymore.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 24, 2007 - 6:46 pm:
Thanks Aileen, I don't think Hank is up to running around....even with the bute, but I didn't turn him out, he is in his dry pen holding his hoof up. I am going to call the vet tomorrow and have him look at him, I don't know if he is weight bearing enough to stand long enough for x-rays. I wonder if I should bute him before the vet comes? I don't want to mask anything, yet I would like x-rays. Hmmmm
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 24, 2007 - 6:54 pm:
Diane,
Maybe I am the confused one, I was responding to your comment "I don't know if he will ever tolerate the rock hard ground" and your request for explanation of how do you evaluate horses which may be always unsound, even if only under certain conditions. As for the treatment of abscesses with bute, the article on abscesses addresses it.
DrO
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 24, 2007 - 7:41 pm:
If your vet finds evidence of an abcess--a draining track or reaction to hoot testers, have him pare it out as per Dr. O's instructions. You'll end up with much less damage to the hoof and almost immediate relief for the horse. I wouldn't put off the process with soaking and polticing with this horse!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 24, 2007 - 7:45 pm:
Sorry Dr.O. I guess I ask way to many questions, when you said permanent lameness my heart sunk at the thought. I'm hoping against hope this abscess (if that is what it is) has been the weird unsoundness problems he's been having...sound then lame..etc. I do believe he needs shoes to be ridden, or pastured on very hard ground and rocks and didn't think that would be considered a permanent lameness...but I guess it could be come to think of it. If I ever get to ride him again. Thanks for clarifying
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 24, 2007 - 8:36 pm:
Tonight when I fed Hanks fetlock was swollen and hot. His left also has a little filling, but not hot, probably from weight bearing. I gave him another gram of bute. His hoof is still in the diaper wrap with sugardine, so didn't examine that.
Julie I will be calling the vet first thing in the morning and will definitely have the abscess pared out if that is the problem. The way it is presenting I would expect it to come out the coronary band.
I suppose he could have sprained his fetlock some how or something else only Hank could do in a small dry lot.
I'm almost afraid to have x-rays for fear of bad rotation or worse. I will report what the vet says if he is able to make it out tomorrow.(I hope he can) but I know Mondays are always swamped for him. Keep hooves crossed for an O.K. report. Thanks
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Monday, Jun 25, 2007 - 12:54 pm:
I've got fingers, legs and toes crossed -- it's hard to type this way -- so we need an update
Brave was told to cross his hooves today too for Hank
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Jun 25, 2007 - 1:32 pm:
Well the news is not so good. Hank has rotated more and his soles are very thin. His rt. front has a big bruise at the toe again, that is what has been causing his pain there. Vet said he didn't think there was any sinking and he needs some corrective shoeing. His coffin bone looked good...no pedal osteitis yet. Vet is going to contact the hopeforsoundness guy and see if he will do him.He said his weight loss is tremendous! but more to go. He said he's seen worse turn around and be sound. His soles have really thinned over the last year since his Jan x-rays. So there goes the theory of barefoot builds sole....maybe on a sound horse. I'm sick
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Monday, Jun 25, 2007 - 1:54 pm:
I'm so sorry, Diane, I hope the hopeforsoundness guy will help you out. 
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Monday, Jun 25, 2007 - 2:07 pm:
Diane,
Bummer, I had a real big feeling that he was rotating more because of the pictures. Hoped it was not the case. Thats why my trimmer Kate was trying to get you a trimmer fast because she had said he had some bad rotation going on. Thus bruises. Barefoot does build sole but nothing will build sole on a foundering horse untill the angle gets better.
I am sorry to hear this news. Good luck with the hope for soundness guy. I heard they have great trimmers.
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Monday, Jun 25, 2007 - 3:28 pm:
Hey Diane, sorry to hear your news. But I have to tell you, as much as I was bummed about Levi and his white line disease, at least I felt relieved to have an answer to all my worries. Levi has had the rotation issue as well, and it is amazing when you get the right farrier/vet team working, how things can turn around. Even though I have to drive him 2 hours, both ways, I wish I would have stuck with him long ago. The cost in money, and time wasted, not being able to ride, etc. would have been worth it.
Someone on this site recommended a product from Horse Tech for Levi's sole, and this vet and farrier cannot believe how much sole he has been growing. Also we have Levi in a Trac-me shoe that someone in Kentucky designed for her severely foundered horse. He has been doing great (knock on wood), so even though it is depressing, just realize you are on the right track finally.
Levi will have to be in shoes, probably for the rest of his life, but if that is what it takes to make him comfortable and be a productive member of my family, it is not a big deal, a little expensive comparatively. I often wonder why, as much as love my animals, I had to get a high maintenance animal like Levi. Then I realize that anyone else would have sent him off to the "glue factory" by now. We that really care, are given the stewardship of these animals, because we will take good care of them.
If you want any info on the Ultra Flax or the shoes, let me know.
suz & Levi
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Jun 25, 2007 - 3:45 pm:
Thanks guys, Susan I am the one that suggested the horsetech, Hank has been on it now for about a month....great product. ihave hopes Hank will be OK, for some reason having his hoof wrapped in sugardine makes him feel better and the big perk is it seems to be hardening his sole, instead of softening it.
He is actually moving relatively well today and the pulse and heat has subsided alot in the right front. The left seems ok. I don't know what he did to cause that bruise, it was not only at the toe but a little in both quarters also. The only thing I can think of is he and Sam were playing and he reared up and came down hard, on the hard ground. I flinched when I saw it happen, but he seemed fine until the next day. The bruiseing wasn't apparent until this morning when I took his wrap off. I hope the vet can talk that farrier into doing Hank.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Jun 25, 2007 - 7:02 pm:
Dr.O. Hanks has been relatively sound on the "normal" ground for quite some time, except for a couple days after his trim. I believe the majority of this new rotation happened after his rabies shot, which was April 13th. He was even off bute until the trim.
I was going to get pics of the x-rays, but I don't think you would have been impressed to say the least. The new rotation is evident from the Jan. X-rays...which didn't have markers. The vet at least marked the hoof wall this time, but not the bottom. He said he measured about 1/2 in of sole, is that real thin? The dish is gone from the hoofwall. I just didn't know what to make of the x-rays, but the vet estimated his rotation around 8 degrees in both. His toe was shorter than the last x-rays and he has grown some heel, from what I could tell. Hank stood very still and good for the x-rays and both feet were on blocks, but again his whole toe wasn't in there and it LOOKED like they were taken at an angle.
ANYWAY he HAS rotated more which didn't surprise me. If the vet isn't able to get this other farrier to do Hank I am stuck with what I have, this farrier doesn't even know how to apply equithane and only carries regular shoes and plastic pads. If this is my only option how should Hank be shod? I read the de-rotation article and don't believe he needs wedges. His heel could be lowered some....I think, and his toe brought back a little. He definitely needs the flares removed in left front. How would we go about shoeing him without an experienced farrier? and this is the last one in the county that I haven't tried or even for 100 mi.
He needs sole protection I am sure, but wouldn't a plastic pad just add to his problems? When this bruise resolves and he is pasture sound again would regular shoeing, with a rim pad be wrong?
Sorry about all the questions but I am stuck between a rock and a hard place if the other farrier won't do him. Thanks
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Jun 25, 2007 - 8:28 pm:
Put Hanks old macs on tonight and you would never know there was anything wrong with him, I really have to come up with some kind of shoeing that will protect his sole, if the other farrier can't do Hank I think I will go with a wide rim shoe. He did very well in them when we had them on. I can't remember anymore why we didn't put them back on, but I think it was because the farrier didn't have anymore and his feet were too small for a reset with them. another question Dr.O. is a rim pad bad for a horse with rotation? Thanks
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Monday, Jun 25, 2007 - 10:33 pm:
Diane, If you can't get a certified Natural Balance Farrier (that's the hopeforsoundness.com certification) to work on Hank I think you're going to have to do some research. It's not so much sole protection he needs with shoes as it is frog support. Shoes with rim pads without frog supports will not help and could exacerbate the displaced coffin bone. Half an inch of sole isn't too bad if he has that much under the tip of the coffin bone. The shoe should be placed so that breakover is under the tip of the coffin bone. Sometimes the some heel has to be removed and then wedged back up to achieve derotation, but in any case, the frog should be weight bearing.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Jun 25, 2007 - 11:18 pm:
Thanks Julie, that was the measurement at the tip of the coffin bone, but how he figured that out with those x-rays is beyond me.
That is what I was thinking about the rim pads, no frog support. When the farrier was here last time I do believe he said he just took some frog support pads off a horse, I saw them laying there and asked about them. They looked like they would do the trick. If I can't get the other farrier I will call this one and see if he could get some before Hanks trim. Hopefully he will be up for shoes by then 7/16. I'm pretty sure he is over the acute founder. I have been researching founder for years and do know the protocol, it's just getting someone to apply it. How thick is a "normal" sole? I can't find an ans. to that. Thanks again
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Member:
paul303
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 26, 2007 - 1:13 am:
Diane, I've been using Equithane Hoof Pak on 2 of my mares for over a year now. I believe it is like a silicon gel that the farrier applies to the sole as the last step in shoeing. It covers the sole to the level of the shoes/rim pads. It functions like a sneaker sole and protects the sole while applying frog pressure. I can only speak from my own experience, I've rarely lost one ( I'm talking about the silicon padding), and I've had no thrush or issues you would think would crop up after a long time of covering the sole. Actually, their soles look better than ever.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 26, 2007 - 7:05 am:
Lee I asked my farrier if he knew how to apply equithane and he said he never has, but he does have the gun for it. I used equithane on a mare that was foundered way worse than Hank years ago it worked very well. I guess I could ask him if he would give it a try, I have always been happy with the stuff.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 26, 2007 - 7:24 am:
Diane, if the horse really has a 1/2 thickness of sole that would not be a thin sole for most horses. It is difficult to get a accurate measurement without well placed markers on the surface the horse is standing on and the tip of the frog marked. Even then the magnifying effect of the radiograph must be taken into account.
How you go about trimming and shoeing even a normal horse correctly without an experienced farrier is not a question I can answer Diane. If you are going to begin corrective work you must find an experienced farrier or veterinarian who knows how to trim and shoe. If your veterinarian cannot direct you, I suggest you contact other veterinarinas, surrounding barns, and extension service for recommendations.
Julie, concerning frog support and having lived through the "heart" of the last resurgence of the heart bar shoe, I have never thought heart bars or stiff frog pads, were beneficial in founders. I know this runs counter to many experienced farriers thoughts but I have seen so many horses made lamer with inappropriate application and at best did not see improvement. When frog (and sole) pressure is needed to support the coffin bone I remain convinced the best way to accomplish this the recommendations in the article.
DrO
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 26, 2007 - 10:25 am:
Diane, I think I mentioned these pads on another thread but don't know where it was.
The vets used these pads on Libby when she was foundered so badly on her left front foot. They really helped her - to the point that she went from non-weight bearing on that foot to being able to stand on it while her other foot and leg were being worked on. Maybe they would help Hank.
Eequine Digit Support Systems. They can be ordered by phone (719-372-7463) or through the hope for soundness web site (hopeforsoundness.com) They are called EDSS pads. They started Libby on the Styrofoam Support Pads, then moved her to a harder pad and a shoe. I'll have to look at her paperwork and see which pad it was they used. If you go to the website, you can probably figure out which pads you'd need.
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Member:
shanson
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 26, 2007 - 11:16 am:
Diane, believe me I know how hard it to find a good farrier, but really until you do you're flying blind here.
In addition to posting here, I recommend you ask for advice and farrier recommendations from the professional farriers on www.horseshoes.com/forums. They can be pretty opinionated and argumentative, but they give valuable advice free of charge. And, they may be able to help you find a farrier in your area that you can trust to do this work. Please give it a try, OK?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 26, 2007 - 4:48 pm:
Well here's the thing, I am pretty sure Hank is over the acute stage. He bruised his rt front somehow, which seems to be subsiding. I agree he needs good shoeing, but I have looked high and low, farrier sites...including horsehoes.
Sara I had Hank in the styrofoam when he was acute, he progressed from needing it. I removed his boots this morning and as far as walking he is
80% on hard ground and close to normal on soft ground.
Like I said I don't know what to think of the x-rays...but they were poor IMO. He definitely is rotated and I thought had some sinkage, the vet didn't think so, but hard to tell.
His pulse and heat have almost dissipated and he is not walking like an acute founder. He is striding a little short on hard ground, but walks well on the grass in the yard. Since the founder has "cooled down" and that bruise seems to be on the mend I THINK a wide web shoe with equithane would do wonders for him. My farrier is not bad, Hanks foot scares him, without x-rays and knowing how thick his sole is he has been trying not to be agressive, which really is good, I'd rather have too much than not enough hoof at this point.
Hank has never been recumbent, from this which is good. His acute episode seemed to last about a month before he stabalized...some bad days thrown in, but before the "bruise" he was doing well for quite sometime, except on very hard ground....which was even improving some.
With that bit of history, would I be doing him a disservice by not getting him "special shoeing" which I can't find anyway? and can't seem to get good x-rays either. I feel very bad not to be able to do that for him, but at this point, I have to go with what I have I think. It's NOT what I want, but am stuck with it. Hopefully with the help of Dr.O. and you good folks my farrier and I can get Hank going in the right direction. I will keep studying Dr.O.'s articles and print them for the farrier...he is capable I think. Hank is out walking in his dry pen..hard dirt right now and looks normal. He had a bute about 24 hrs. ago. I think he is capable of being sound (as he gets) again. Thanks for all your help and support it means alot!
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 26, 2007 - 5:47 pm:
Diane, is getting a second opinion doable? Is there a vet school you could take Hank to?
Hang in there!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 26, 2007 - 5:56 pm:
Aileen the vet schools are quite a ways, and we just aren't financealy able at this time, if it was a matter of life and death we would have to manage...maybe. Honestly I think that bruise slowed him down as he was doing VERY well and is again rallying. I just took him for a SHORT walk and he was raring to go..he was getting prancey and hoppy. I didn't want him "bouncing" on those soles so put him away...gees.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 26, 2007 - 6:26 pm:
Dr.O I have been wrapping Hanks hooves in the sugardine diaper wrap overnight, thinking he had an abscess. It seems to make his bruises feel better and his sole tougher, would betadine + sugar do that? and could I keep doing it nightly with no harm or would that over dry his soles? Thanks
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 26, 2007 - 9:51 pm:
Diane, wishing you only the best!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 27, 2007 - 2:50 pm:
One of the perks of my job is meeting all kinds of people. Today I was on a rural route and ran into some people that had just had the farrier out for their horses. I asked who did theirs and she gave me 2 names of farriers, 1 of whom I have heard was VERY GOOD. I didn't think he did any in this area anymore. He moved quite a ways up north years ago.
If memory serves me my friend use to use him years ago and thought he did marvelous work! I'm going to call her tonight and see.
The woman gave me the phone#'s of both farriers and said the other one is a close second. She gave me some names including hers for a reference. The bad thing is he was just there today and only comes every 2 mos. She said she has a foundered horse that is doing well with his work and brought her down some grazing muzzles for them....so obviously he is aware of "fat horse synDrOme"
I just talked to my friend and she said he was AWESOME...best she ever had and would love to have him again, she said he saved one of her horses. I think I will give this guy a call..... I just called him on his cell phone and YIPEEE he will do Hank in about 2 weeks, he SOUNDED very very knowlegeable about horses like Hank and has been doing them for years. I mercilessly begged. Keep your fingers crossed he's the guy Hank needs, and hopefully his bruising is gone by then.
Dr.O should I move this to a founder thread? or keep it together? Thanks
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 27, 2007 - 3:32 pm:
Diane, let me be the first to congratulate you! It is such a good feeling to think you might be on your way! I know that I have to travel 2 hours to my new farrier, I don't really like him much, kinda crabby personality, but I have to bite the bullet, because Levi is doing much better.
Yippee
suz
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 27, 2007 - 5:45 pm:
For those of us who struggle with our horses hoof health a great farrier is beyond price. So lots f prayers to you and Hank that this is the one! Cindy
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 27, 2007 - 5:56 pm:
I just talked to my vet and he said he had worked with this farrier a couple times and only does a very few horses down here and that I was very lucky to get him. (Begging and pleading does work sometimes) He said he does good work and to have him stop at the clinic before he comes and he would go thru Hanks (bad) x-rays with him and help any way he could. He said in the mean time to keep his feet padded and bute to get the hooves stable.
I think Hank and I are finally on the way! The lady said he was expensive, at this point I could care less
I just hope he doesn't show up or something.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 27, 2007 - 9:10 pm:
Oh, Diane, I hope this fellow is as good as he sounds! I know I it took me a long time to find someone I trusted with my horses, and when I did I felt like crying for joy! Good luck!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 28, 2007 - 6:36 am:
Concerning the sugar-dine Diane I have never used it as a hoof toughener nor a abscess drawing agent and so don't know how this might work but consider these two objectives are different, one is supposed to soften to allow a abscess to come through.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jun 29, 2007 - 6:19 pm:
Famine to feast, the vet called and said the hopeforsoundness guy called him today and will take Hank as a client. Vet said this guy is even better than the other and does everything by the book concerning founder.
When I talked to the other guy his thinking was that they are all different and it takes some tweaking with certain horses to see what makes them most comfortable. (I kinda like that thinking best?) but maybe it isn't best???? NOW I don't know what to do. Especially after I begged the other farrier. Help!!!
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Friday, Jun 29, 2007 - 6:57 pm:
Tough spot-- but an abundance of good luck for a change! In 1998 I had a gelding founder and my vet suggested Natural Balance shoeing. At that time, there were no NB certified farriers locally, so I chipped in and sent my farrier to one of Gene Ovenic's clinics. My horse walked off sound from the first shoeing. And my farrier refused to ever shoe conventionally again! That was before the big push for barefoot, but it worked for me then. I have since kept my horses, including this one, barefoot with great success.
There is so much new information about founder and so much new research I would have to suggest going with the hopeforsoundness guy and pray he's kept up with all the info through continuing education. I would also suggest you pick up your radiographs and have them for him to view when he comes so he has the horse and the films in the same place. Or, what worked best for me was to take my horse to the vet clinic and meet the farrier there. Of course, my vet is very competent with radiographs and never fails to use accurate markers!! That may not work depending on all your schedules, but whatever you do, these two professionals must work together! If either one balks at that, keep shopping! Good luck with your decision. Maybe you can explain to the farrier you begged that your vet requested the other guy? Tough situation.
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Friday, Jun 29, 2007 - 7:01 pm:
Oh, additionally, properly placed, a Natural Balance shoe will provide a lot of protection in the areas where you're experiencing the bruising. But, the sole needs to be "relieved" so that there is no pressure directly from the rim of the shoe on the sole. Still, very important to be able to work from radiographs--accurate ones would be best!
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Friday, Jun 29, 2007 - 7:06 pm:
I haven't chimed in on this thread.. but have to say that all horses are not the same.. .. i personally believe you do have to tweak each one .. and well some have to be changed as you go along.. Mine for one , is being shod differently then he was two years ago.. things change..
good luck..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jun 29, 2007 - 8:17 pm:
The vet is willing to work with either one, I really like my vet alot, but he is young and learning....will be a great vet with time I think!
I must use this vet it is all I have and other than his radiographing abilities he's pretty good, if I complain about them he will redo them. I just don't like nagging too much as he has been so helpful with Hank. He usually doesn't even charge me a call out.
He also gave me his cell no. in case I couldn't get in touch with him thru the office, and calls at least weekly to see how Hank is doing, he is VERY BUSY and I appreciate him taking the time for us. BUT as far as hooves go...at this point I don't have a tremendous amount of confidence in him.
I think I will go with whoever shows up first,(very scientific) that way I at least I know I have one. Knowing my luck if I cancel one the other won't show.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 30, 2007 - 7:15 am:
Julie how much rotation did your gelding have in 1998? The hopeforsoundness website has the farrier listed as certified and his name is bold which means according to them "Names highlited in BOLD are individuals that have either been to multiple & recent clinics, or have been reported on favorably by horse owners that have received references from us"
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 30, 2007 - 10:12 am:
Hey Diane, just a word of caution. One of the farriers listed on the hopeforsoundness web site here in Iowa, came out and evaluated Levi, before we went up to South Dakota. He looked at X-rays, horse etc. He said if it were him, he would "Shallow out his sole so that there would be less pressure on that coffin bone tip". My vet said it would have been a death sentence to Levi, and could not believe a knowledgeable farrier would dare to suggest such a thing. Thank God for this site, and the education I have received from it. Otherwise, I would have not known better, and further crippled my horse. He apparently attended seminars, and I got a referral from a local person who thought he was great!
It's a tough road, but use everything you learned from Dr. O, and others to have input into Hanks care!
Can you believe, after all the money I spent on supplements, shoes etc. to grow sole, and this guy was going to remove it to "relieve the pressure"? YIKES
Hang in there
suz & Levi
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 30, 2007 - 10:58 am:
That is what I am afraid of Susan, Hank's coffin bone would fall right thru if his sole was thinned!
I am pretty sure my vet knows better than that at least I do. I will try to be present when they "evaluate" and make a plan, not that I know much, but I am pretty sure I know what NOT to do. Thanks to these articles here.
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 30, 2007 - 11:08 am:
Diane, when I asked my vet how many degrees Jackpot had rotated, he said that in his opinion, founder is like pregnancy--either they are or they aren't. I don't totally agree with that, but this vet treats everything as a worst case scenario. I don't think he had major rotation, but he did have a little sinking. He had lots of sole depth and that helped him. I wonder if what Susan is refering to is what I meant when I said relieve the sole under the rim of the shoe. The idea is that the shoe shouldn't press directly on the sole and most of the pressure should be on the walls. Some barefoot trimmers and many traditional farriers insist on "scooping" the sole and to me that seems very wrong.
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 30, 2007 - 11:26 am:
Diane look at your own feet they are not exactly the same! Neither are a horses! I've said this before as it has become my mantra "the sole is holy ground " do not violate ! Have become very pro-active in my old age. You know Hank best and by now you have more knowledge in your head than even you know! Best of Luck Cindy
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 30, 2007 - 11:30 am:
Isn't the idea to bevel the shoe to relieve sole pressure? and not touch the sole in front of the frog? According to the vet Hank has thin soles and removing any at this point I think would be detrimental. Dr.O. isn't that how it works....bevel the shoe? I'm pretty sure that is what it says in the derotation article.....but I misunderstand alot of things. When my farrier beveled the shoe when I requested it a awhile ago, Hank was doing very well until his reset (not beveled) and got VERY SORE, I had the shoes removed and that is when he had the weird bruising, and back to square one we went.
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 30, 2007 - 4:37 pm:
As I remember, the Natural Balance shoes were already manufactured that way. The shoe is set farther back than a conventional shoe--at the natual breakover, that's why you need the radiographs. If any sole still needs to be relieved, it's not like most farriers do--it's about the thickness of an apple peel.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 1, 2007 - 8:25 am:
Beveling is the process of lowering the inside edge of the weight bearing surface of the shoe and should be done whenever the sole and wall are flush. Light beveling can be done with a hammer and anvil, heavy beveling is quickest with a grinder.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 1, 2007 - 8:42 am:
Dr.O. Hank has been on 1-2 grams of bute since April, he was off it for about a week before his last trim.
He is still sore with 2 grams of bute..1 at night, 1 in the morning. He is not terrible sore, considering the rotation and bruising, actually I would expect him to be much worse...could be the bute tho (probably).
A couple questions before I have a farrier out, which he desperately needs! His heat and pulse are gone for the most part. Would it be wise to take the bute away slowly to see just how bad he is, before a farrier works on him? If he is terribly sore without the bute can he still have corrective shoeing done? When I put his boots on he is VERY comfortable and I think a shoe with a pour in pads along with a correct trim would do wonders for him, I just don't want to make matters worse by jumping the gun. He walks more like a sole sore horse than a foundering one and on soft ground looks OK. I can't avoid the hard ground, because he is in the diet pen which is VERY hard at this time. When he steps on a piece of gravel he fliches. I think the gravel bothers him more than anything, but there is no way of getting rid of it, seems for every piece I pick up 5 pieces come back. Is it ok to give him bute before the shoeing or is that a bad idea?
The boots are creating their own problems...soft sole and rubbed heel bulbs, so I don't use them often. Thanks
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 1, 2007 - 12:51 pm:
I'm very glad you now have choices Diane!! Good luck
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 1, 2007 - 3:33 pm:
Someone on a website that I go to recomends boots called soft ride for foundered horses they dont rub and can be left on for long periods. She said they are clumsy and expensive but work wonderfully, no more rubs. Maybe you could look them up. Also easy boot is comming up with a boot for foundered or very lame horses that can be left on also with out rubs. I cant wait till they come out. Just remember if you choose to shoe keep the shoes on. Going back and forth will cause more damage than its worth. Good luck. Thinking good wishs your way
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 1, 2007 - 4:02 pm:
Thanks Katrina, I think I am going with shoes if the farrier thinks that is the way to go. If it goes well he will remain in shoes until we get him de-rotated at this point his soles just aren't handling the hard ground, and the boots are too much of a pain 24/7.
I think I mentioned before my cushings gelding foundered a couple times until I got his triggers figured out. He was shod for 2 years until his hooves healed. He is now barefoot and doing great, don't even need the boots to ride him anymore. Without the shoes he would have been lame and then no exercise, which really helped him. Hank NEEDS exercise and I think the shoes and of course a correct trim are the way to get him moving more comfortably. Vet said he thought he should be shod for a hoof growth....around 8 mos. My vet prefers barefoot, but after seeing Hanks rotation and thin soles he thinks corrective shoeing is the way to get him comfortable....maybe after the new hoof growth and hopefully tighter whiteline and thicker sole Hank can try barefoot again. Continually bruiseing his soles isn't doing him any good I don't think.
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 1, 2007 - 4:39 pm:
I think I would probably do the same if my horses soles were so thin they caused bad bruising. I hate shoes but would put them on if I had too. Good luck to you both.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 1, 2007 - 9:29 pm:
Dr.O. I decided to not give hank his bute this morning and put his boots on, he was great all day.
I checked his pulses around 3 and they were very quiet. I took his boots off and within an hour he was very sore and the pulses back. It would seem the boots help more than the bute. Could I actually be making matters worse with the bute, by making him feel good enough to move around more on those poor soles?
At feed time tonight I decided not to bute him and put the boots back on and also slipped the lil' swimmers on to hopefully help with the heel rubs, he moved off like a sound horse. He literally went from crippled to sound. Soon as I put them on he trotted out to their dry pen to join the others and didn't miss a beat, he didn't want to move much before that.
2 questions: Considering he is that sore without sole protection would it be OK to still shoe him to get him the sole protection he seems to desperately need?
I will keep him in he boots as much as possible...hopefully the lil swimmers work. Does it make sense to not bute him, considering in a round about way I think it is making him worse, by keeping him moving on the hard ground?
Thanks
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 4, 2007 - 5:37 pm:
FINALLY Hank is walking well without bute again. I keep him in boots overnight, because I don't know what those fools do sometimes, but whenever he bruises his soles it seem to be a night thing...probably bored and fighting!
I have been using the muzzle to get him out and moving at his own pace. He is walking pretty good on the hard ground too. Pulses and heat in the hooves are gone again.
I am hoping to get him shod next week sometime is that too soon? His hooves are terribly flared and long again. If I can't get one of those other farriers I was thinking on having my farrier shoe him in the interim.... because I really don't have a set appointment with either of them which makes me leary to say the least. I was reading thru all my shoeing bruised feet threads and it would seem Hank was doing VERY well in the routed out wide web shoe, When he was shod regular is when he went downhill fast. I think he probably had sole pressure from the shoes as he was bruised when I had the farrier remove them.
Am I getting to far ahead of myself again?
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 5, 2007 - 2:01 pm:
I have no idea Diane! But I'm so glad he's doing well without Bute!!!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 5, 2007 - 8:51 pm:
Thanks Aileen, I am very happy to get him off the bute again, it seems he's been living on it for quite awhile.
Hank is now going without the boots 24/7, if he seems tender I put them on. He went out tonight with his muzzle and when I called them up, he came running and bucking, I don't know if that is good or bad. He usually won't move any faster than what he wants if his feet hurt, so I guess it's good.
His feet look terrible, so I have to get a farrier here soon, I called the one I mentioned above again and left a message. The vet said he hasn't heard back from the other one either.
My regular farrier is due the 16th and if I don't here from either of them I am going with what I have.
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