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Discussion on Right hind leg lamenes
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Member:
scrupi1
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 17, 2007 - 12:22 am:
Hi Everyone,
I posted about a week ago about my 5 year old warmblood gelding that came up lame after a jumping session. He was not tracking up with the right hind and felt stiff, would not bend when tracking right and slowed down whenever he was put on a circle.
I gave him a week off but there was no change so I had the vet out. The vet watched him trot on the lunge and on a straightaway. She said that he was still short behind on the right and that he didn't seem to want to flex the right hock as much as he should. She than hoof tested his right foot and found him to be very sensitive/reactive to the hoof testers on the outside right hoof wall in the same area as the clip of the shoe.
She recommended removing the shoe and soaking and poulticing the foot on the off chance that there was an abscess. I did this for 5 days, no abscess showed up and he was not reactive to the hoof testers upon retesting. The vet had said to go ahead and put the shoe back on if he was not positive when testing with the hoof testers.
The farrier came out and he told me that Harley was sore in his heel and that he was going to put wedges in to lift the heel and take some pressure off of the heels. I do not know enough obviously about shoeing, I have just moved to this area, do not know the vet, do not know the farrier and do not know enough about corrective shoeing to know what should or should not be done.
So I said go ahead. We lunged Harley after and he was no more lame than before but definitly no better.
I called the vet and she was very upset that the farrier had taken it upon himself to put the wedges in.
She is coming back out to the farm on Wednesday.
My problem is that I do not know who to trust. I do not know the vet and I do not know the farrier. I am worried that the changes that have been made to his feet will make other things go wrong. My horse is still lame and I do not know what to do. I get the feeling that the vet is going to want the shoes removed but now that the wedges are in place and some of the heel has been removed how are we going to get the foot back to normal? I really need some advice. I can take pictures and video if there is anyway that anyone can help me figure out what I need to do to help him get back to being sound again. Pleas help I am very confused!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 17, 2007 - 10:31 am:
What a dilemma, it is so hard to know who to trust especially when you don't know them. Now that your horse has been trimmed for wedges I don't know if it would be a good idea to remove them. It sounds like the clips were making him sore somehow and if he hoof tested ok after 5 days it does make you wonder what the farrier was thinking. How did the farrier determine he was heel sore? Sounds more like the vet was on track.
If you post pictures of his feet I am sure it would help Dr.O. and others with an opinion.
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Member:
scrupi1
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 17, 2007 - 7:02 pm:
Diane, I am thinking that I agree with you about the vet being on track. The ferrier said that when he was testing the hoof that the horses heels were sore but I did not ask if this was on both hind feet or just the right hind foot. His right hind shoe had been removed for 5 days, I had been wrapping and pouticing so he had some protection but I'm sure it was not as much protection as the shoe was giving the heel prior to removal so I don't really understand why he jumped to the conclusion that a sore heel was causing his lameness and that why wedges were chosen to help the situation. He also said that he has some swelling in his hind legs and that this was another reason that he put wedges in. I agree that the horse has windpuffs but these are bilateral, cold, and have been present for months before the lameness started, all of which I told the farrier. I will say that it seems like the amount of swelling has been less since the change in shoes but he is no less lame so I do not think the two are in any way connected.
I have already had the vet out, she did not recommend bute, did recommend that our next step may be an x-ray of the hock and injections of adequan. I know nothing about adequan except what she told me (an IM injection that helps lubricate the joints). I also know that x-rays can reveal arthritic changes that are not necessarily the cause of the lameness.
Basically, I want to get to the cause of his lameness but do not want to spend hundreds of dollars to do so. The vet is coming back out wednesday and we are going to sit down and discuss the major change in shoes and where to take it from here. I guess my question is, does anyone know to what lengths I should go to diagnose the lameness. The horse is comfortable out in the pasture but we were in training to start showing in the lower levels of dressage and jumping and I would love to get back on track but am obviously willing to do whatever the horse needs to be sound. Should I just let him rest for a few more weeks to see if things clear up on their own? He has already been out of work for 2 1/2 weeks with no significant difference in the degree of lameness. Or should I start in on having the vet try to find the source of the lameness (x-rays/nerve blocks)?
I have posted some close ups of his feet after being shod on friday (will get pics that include more of the leg tomorrow). I would appreciate any suggestions. Thanks! 
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Member:
scrupi1
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 17, 2007 - 7:04 pm:
In the post above the top picture is of his right rear foot and the bottom picture is of his left rear foot.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 17, 2007 - 7:28 pm:
Susanne, what little I know about hooves,(so take this for what it's worth) they look awful short for hind feet. It looks like his toes have been dumped or something, as they have a bull nosed look. From my readings about hooves....because of my horse, I ran across that a bull nosed look can also mean a negative plane coffin bone, which x-rays would reveal.
Dr.O. and others have way more experience than me so hopefully they will chime in.
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Member:
scrupi1
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 17, 2007 - 7:36 pm:
Diane,
what is a negative plane coffin bone?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 17, 2007 - 8:01 pm:
Susanne I never really read much on it, that's one of the few problems I don't have. If you go to horseshoes.com and search it in the bulletin boards you can read about it. They talk about it quite often.
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Member:
paul303
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 17, 2007 - 10:58 pm:
Yeah, they look pretty short to me, also. How big is your horse, and what size shoe is on him? On one foot, the nails look a little high, too. I don't know if the toe was rasped that way or what, but I'd be inclined to just lay off those feet until he grows some hoof. If he's still lame by the next shoeing, that is probably when I'd aggressively pursue a diagnosis. It's true that it just might disappear on it's own, but if you want to compete this horse, it's probably best to figure out what's going on early in the process when the treatment holds the best prognosis for a good outcome. If you spend a lot on diagnosis and find out it is nothing serious, then that is worth it for your peace of mind and your ability to compete him without constant worry.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 17, 2007 - 11:06 pm:
Susanne, here is a description of negative plane coffin bone. REMEMBER I know nothing about feet, but it is an interesting read nonetheless.
https://www.hopeforsoundness.com/hoofprints/misc-articles/negativep3.html
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Member:
scrupi1
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Posted on Monday, Jun 18, 2007 - 7:02 am:
I too feel like the feet look shorter than they do on a usual shoeing. The horse is 16.3 and I will have to check on the size of the shoe, other than asking the farrier, is there anyway that you can identify the size of the shoe by looking at it? This is the first time that his feet have looked like this. I will try to upload the pictures of his front feet which look more normal, they do not have that bull nosed look like the hind feet do. The farrier was concerned that the heel pain was contributing to the lameness but the heel pain was not present initially and occurred after the right shoe had been removed for several days. He placed wedge pads (I need to find out what degree) and eggbar shoes? He said that his heels were low and that the toes were long which makes me think that he did rasp some of the toe away. He also said that there was some bruising on the inside (medial aspect) of the outer hoof wall on the right, the vet had noticed some bruising on the lateral hoof wall prior to removal of the initial shoe. Which shoe did you notice that the nails were higher?
Diane, thanks for the link to the hoof page, I will have to continue to research more on that subject.
Lee, I feel the same regarding diagnosis and thank you for reaffirming my gut instinct! At a barn you can recieve many different opinions, and I was questioning my desire to get to the bottom of this.
The vet will return wednesday. she has not mentioned nerve blocks as a diagnosis aid but my vet from home did suggest them. I did buy this horse for competition, he has been sound up to this point and the lameness is not severe so it seems like we should be able to get to the bottom of it!
The farrier told me I could ride him lightly but I have not. Would walking him for 15 to 20 min while on his back help anything? I haven't even done this because we don't know what is really wrong and I haven't wanted to make anything worse. What do you think?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Jun 18, 2007 - 9:22 am:
As the feet look fairly a-p balanced in the photos I would try to maintain these angles. Since the diagnosis and location remain in question I would do nerve blocks prior to considering removing the shoes. Yes, if the lameness blocks out in the foot you may need to have the shoes removed for further diagnostic work but I would arrange to do that when the farrier and vet could be there together.
Note I see no reason to suspect coffin bone rotation (either direction) from the photos above. As you are posting in the localizing lameness section, I assume you have read the topic for a logical diagnostic procedure. For more on handling horses until it is diagnosed see Diseases of Horses » Lameness » First Aid for the Lame Horse.
DrO
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Member:
paul303
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Posted on Monday, Jun 18, 2007 - 10:33 pm:
It is the picture on the right where the nails look a little high to me. I don't mean that they were placed wrong - they have to go high enough to hold on - and NOW they have to hold a wedge also....but with the foot so short ( at least it LOOKS short), the nails end up a bit high. I'm just saying that you were dealing with a bit of lameness, and in the preliminary investigations, a few significant changes were made pretty quickly. All of them may or may not have influenced the original problem....shoe off for five days ( could tenderize that foot ), what looks like a short trim ( could cause some ouchiness if it is ), and wedges applied ( a change from his accustomed angle ). I can understand your vet's frustration, because I think the shoeing changes of the back feet are meant to shorten his breakover and ease possible stress on the hind feet/legs. Now, in watching him go, how much will be due to his "problem", and how much should be chalked up to a change in shoeing? It makes the diagnosis more confusing and difficult for the vet.
If it's all right with your vet, and the lameness isn't any worse, it would be nice to allow some hoof growth and resting of the bruised area and then, like Dr.O says, start at the beginning following the diagnostic steps in order. A "try this", or "maybe if we", approach just wastes time and money. If there is a real problem, you delay diagnosis, and if there is nothing terrible found, you delay peace of mind.
It's really best to do like Dr.O says, coordinate your farrier and vet. It's important that each one knows what the other is doing. Since you're new to the area, you might want to ask your vet if there is a farrier she prefers to work with. Good luck.
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Member:
scrupi1
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 25, 2007 - 7:59 pm:
Just wanted to let everyone know how things turned out. I had a very hard time finding a vet in the area (after the first vet told me that she would not work with my ferrier) that specialized in lameness exams and by the time I was able to schedule an appointment with a vet 2 hours away Harley started to do better. In the interim I did have one chiropractic session and she told me he had several different things out of alignment that would require many different sessions to resolve! I am not a believer as of yet in chiropractic treatment but will say that he was more forward and willing to move off into the trot than prior to the treatment. However, he did have 4 weeks off as well, so who knows. I will say that I when I felt him move forward willingly I was so happy I cried!
An event trainer than watched me ride him under saddle at the walk and trot and told me his stifles looked very weak and gave me a conditioning program to start on and advised to remove the wedge pads at his next shoeing.
So, two weeks into the conditioning regime (consisting of 4, 5 min trot sets in a 50 min session and up and down as many hills (we have only very small grades) that we can find) he is starting to feel more like his old self again. However, he was tripping frequently in front and behind which had me worried. The ferrier came out yesterday and reshod and removed the wedge pads and I rode him last night and he felt great and did not trip once. There was only 5 weeks between the shoeing, I don't know if the wedge pads had anything to do with it or if his toes were just long before being reshod but there was a significant difference in the his ability to clear the ground!
I am just very glad that we are getting back on track. I have read many posts and know that many of you out there feel the same way about your horses as I feel about mine. There is just something so fulfilling about being back on the animal you love!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 26, 2007 - 7:18 am:
Good news Susanne! I know the feeling you are talking about, I hope things continue to improve.
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