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| Discussion on Itches, Kicks at Belly, and Switches Tail | |
| Author | Message |
| New Member: Bucky |
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 7, 2004 - 10:38 pm: I have a 20+ gelding with a funny problem which has been going on for a couple months and comes in spurts. He acts like he has a touch of colic but doesn't. He kicks at his belly, and will look back alternately lift his legs. He switches is tail often. He itches his sheath and belly on the tall dead weeds in the pasture. He eats, drinks, and digests normally. I have had two vets look at him and niether could find anything wrong. Blood work, bladder ultrasound, and general workup were done with no abnormal results. About a year ago he had a really strange skin disease which I treated successfully with penicillin. Could it be hanging on? He had sores on his sheath earlier this fall that went away after he was wormed with ivermeticin. Any ideas, I am worried about his comfort level. Thanks-- |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Thursday, Jan 8, 2004 - 7:37 am: Hello Mandy,Since you are posting this in the urinary disease section I assume you have not read our articles on itchy skin diseases, see Equine Diseases » Skin Diseases » Overview of Scratching & Rubbing. The two dollar question is whether the ventral pruritis (itchiness) is causing the colic like symptoms for more on diagnosing colic see, Equine Diseases » Colic and GI Diseases » Colic in Horses » An Overview of the Diagnosis and Treatment of Colic. DrO |
| Member: Shirl |
Posted on Thursday, Jan 8, 2004 - 10:52 am: Mandy,Sounds like an allergy problem to me. My horse does that in summer when the gnats are bad. That shouldn't be the case this time of year for your horse, but maybe his bedding, etc. is causing some allergic reaction. Have you thought of having him tested for allergies. My horse went through that, and it has helped a lot. Good Luck, Shirl |
| Member: Dartanyn |
Posted on Thursday, Jan 8, 2004 - 10:53 am: Hi Mandy, definitely consider the articles that Dr.O points out. I'll share my similar behavior experience with my gelding. We discovered he required a good, gentle, deep cleaning of his sheath area...after about 2 weeks from that cleaning his behavior stopped. It had gotten to the point of him searching out stiff brush while we were trail riding and he would back off the side of the trail over it to try to scratch his belly/sheath area - before we really got the sense of what was going on with him! Anyway, we have made certain not to overclean him in that area as that can cause the same irritation; but to use his excessive tail swishing or tummy kicking to trigger another cleaning for him. Works out to about twice a year. Hope your problem is as easy as mine was to address! Dawn |
| Member: Bucky |
Posted on Thursday, Jan 8, 2004 - 12:51 pm: Hello--Thank you for all the great information. I am wading through all the information on this site and wasn't exactly sure where to post my message as I am not sure what his problem is. Dawn: What do you like to use to clean his sheath? Warm water and soap? Also has anyone found that these symptoms may point to a worm problem? I noticed in the skin diseases section worming with ivermeticin 3 times within two weeks for one of the diseases listed. Would this be worth a try or is it risky if you do not know what the specific problem is? I will probably try sheath cleaning next. Thanks for all the help. MM |
| Member: Bucky |
Posted on Thursday, Jan 8, 2004 - 1:52 pm: Correction: Ivermeticin 2 or 3 times two weeks apart to treat mange mites.... |
| Member: Dartanyn |
Posted on Thursday, Jan 8, 2004 - 4:13 pm: Hi Again Mandy, Dr.O has a topic under Care of the Horse titled "Sheath Cleaning"; it also has many posts on the topic that help alot. For my gelding I used Mineral Oil the first time I cleaned him to really loosen the smegma off; then a soft cloth in a bucket of tepid (lightly warm) water. Regular cleanings now are usually only the cloth and warm water; or occassionally I'll use some KY Jelly to loosen things. They have products at the horsey store; but the costs are so high and the products work the same (or sometimes less well) than warm water, hand-softening dishsoap (rinse off well if you use this), KY Jelly and the Mineral Oil, that I have stuck with those instead. Hope this helps! Dawn
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| Member: Bucky |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 3, 2004 - 3:57 pm: Hello--Well I tried cleaning his sheath (2 weeks ago last sat)but I don't think it solved the problem unless I didn't get it clean enough, or I overdid it. He did seemed better for a few days but is really itchy again. I have discovered he is also very itchy around the sheath on his belly. He is just plain itchy! I don't think he was ever colicky. I think he just wants a good belly scratch. Could he possibly have some kind of infection? I did give him a round of penicillin at the beginning of January. It did seem to help...but it did not cure him and he was itching again a day or two after I stopped. I gave him 40 cc's a day for 7 days--Same as the last skin infection he had--which cured him. Any more ideas? |
| Member: Bucky |
Posted on Sunday, Feb 8, 2004 - 11:43 am: Hello,My vet thinks my horse (now horses, my other horse is rubbing her tail) has lice. I gave them both a good powder delousing last night. I did read you section under skin diseases about lice and mites but still have some other questions-- How do horses get lice? How do I disinfect everything? Should I put them in another pasture for awhile? Does anyone have any home remedies to prevent or help? Ugh, this is awful, but I hope this is what it is. Sorry to have put this conversation under the urinary section. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Sunday, Feb 8, 2004 - 5:49 pm: Hello Mandy,Concerning how they get it read the first paragraph under the lice section of the Lice and Mite article. Concerning disinfectant you need to use something in the treatment section of that article. Concerning moving: I would say it is too late and treatment basically takes care of the problem rapidly. Best is to treat everyone. DrO |
| Member: Liliana |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 12, 2004 - 4:53 pm: Hello Mandy,I am curios as what bedding do they have?, how often do you worm them? do they all share the same brushes, I know it may seem basic, but so many times is the little things that we do that can make the difference, I say this because I had a similar problem once, and it was that the sponge I used to clean my gelding´s sheath, my husband used to spread fly reppelant on his horse!!! I would suggest that you go back to basics before getting into a panic and vet bills, perhaps wash his sheath with camomile tea and aloe soap and some zinc based cream. It has worked for me in the past... As far as lice and mites, believe it or not with the monthly worming regime and garlic in their feeds we do not have that problem and we live in tropical rain forest!!! were bugs are BIG All the best Liliana |
| Member: Bucky |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 12, 2004 - 9:36 pm: Hi Liliana,I am so excited to have someone from Mexico post about my horse issue. This web site is so neat! My horse is turned out to pasture all day and night with his horse wife, they are on about 5 acres and have a barn to go into. It has an old wood floor, and no bedding (they seem to prefer to be outside most of the time anyway). The really effected horse was raised on my grandparents ranch and it's environment sounds completely opposite of where you are. It is 6500 ft above sea level--high in a mountain valley called the Big Hole. We often joke there is only one month of summer there which is not far from the truth! The winters are very cold--nights are usually below zero. I moved him here, where I am now, 3 years ago-which is 4000 feet above sea level and considered the bannana belt of Montana. The temp usually is around freezing in the winter. Anyhow the environment here is completely different from where he came from. The grass is different, the bugs are different, and he went from roaming on hundreds of acres to a few (which I think makes a big difference worm wise)I worm them every two months. What boggles my mind is how they got the lice (if this is the problem) They have little or no contact with any other horses. There are some neglected horses(I saw them up close and they had something wrong with their skin) that are about 1/2 mile away--but they have not had any direct contact. I have a friend that I ride with that got a new horse and she came and rode with me last September--I suspect this is the most likely source, I don't know. Anyhow thanks for the good common sense advice. The camomile/aloe/zinc sounds interesting. Can the lice burrow in their sheath? |
| Member: Liliana |
Posted on Friday, Feb 13, 2004 - 6:47 pm: Hello there Mandy,I know!!! this site is something is it not!??, I find it great fun apart from being informative!\clipart{lol}}, one gets the input of sooo many people with soooo many different kinds of approach to horses. For what I have read in all kinds of papers in the internet, when I had that problem here in Cozumel, apparently lice, ticks and fleas can live dormant for years, until the food supply arrives,i.e.horses,dogs, etc. and in some cases yes! they do bury themselves under the skin and it can take a few weeks before they surfase again So I was wondering if there is a possibility that the lice could have been in the wooden floor? or even in the soil?, perhaps, there was cattle or sheep there before? eh. And thinking back, a friend of mine had a white horse (pink skin) and the wood that was used on her horese´s stables had a sort of varinish or primer that irritated the horses skin. In England the wheather can be pretty cold too, and some times even if their NZ Rug is not long enough to cover all their belly, the wind can, kind of cracle their sheath, specially them older ´orses whose bodies aren´t as good at reproducing oils and stuff as them young ones, sometimes is the feed or grass making their pipi acid..so vaselinne or zync can protect and at least stopt the irritation. Gosh I am rambling on arent!! Any way I hope the old fellow gets better soon All the best, Liliana |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Saturday, Feb 14, 2004 - 10:30 am: How long the lice or mite can live off the horse depends on the specie and we discuss each individual species ability in the article referenced above.DrO |
| Member: Bucky |
Posted on Monday, Feb 16, 2004 - 12:15 pm: Hello,I was wondering if you could tell me where I could get organosphosphate (or what chemicals to look for on the label) you mention in your lice and mite article. It seems to take care of everything but I couldn't find any at either of our 2 feed stores. All the treatments they have at the feed store are permethin based. OR-I would like to find a seleen shampoo which is also mentioned in an article linked from this site. It is supposed to get near 50° here in the next days and I would like to give them a bath because it is very difficult to get the powder down to their skin with the winter hair. Thanks for any resources you can direct me to and your time-- |
| Member: Ryle |
Posted on Monday, Feb 16, 2004 - 12:25 pm: Mandy,If any of the veterinarians in your area carry the VetKem products, they have a Flea & Tick shampoo that is labeled for use in dogs, cats and horses that will kill lice. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 17, 2004 - 6:15 am: Locally, coumaphos is the most common o-p available for livestock and be sure to follow the instructions carefully. You should be able to order something through your vet. I have never had to resort to o-p and always had success with ivermectin even though the literature has reported failures.DrO |
| Member: Bucky |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 17, 2004 - 11:34 am: Hello,I am trying ivermeticin first. Will do OP as last resort. Thank you for your help. MM |
| Member: Monie |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 18, 2004 - 4:40 pm: I've been following your discussion with interet as I have a gelding with very much the same symptoms. He had sores in his sheath which I seem to have under control by washing with a saline solution and Betadine Douche. When the sores were at their worst I also used an antibiotic lotion. Now he often stamps his foot down and starts swishing his tail. I always thought this was because his sheath was bothering him again and treated it as above. I try not to do it too often for fear of over drying the area. If it is mites that are the problem and i should be treating with ivermeticin, can one of you explain what is ivermeticin & how do I use it? Mandy also mentioned organosphosphate. Again what is it how do I use it. Which of the two should i be using. I have looked around the local horse shops for a horse shampoo with anti- mite/lice treatment but haven't found any. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 19, 2004 - 8:37 am: Hello Monique,Ivermectin is a common ingredient in many over the counter deworming products. Organophosphates are a type of insecticide available at most livestock stores. Concerning use you should follow the instructions on the product and in the article, Equine Diseases » Skin Diseases » Lice and Mites of Horses. DrO |
| Member: Bucky |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 19, 2004 - 12:58 pm: Hi Monique,You might take a look at the section on deworming also--Care of the Horse, Deworming. Do you deworm your horses? What is the weather like where you live / do you have lots of bugs? Ivermeticin took care of the sores on my horses sheath. My relative who is a vet also said the best way to get rid of lice is ivermeticin. You have to treat them twice, exactly two weeks apart. It is sort of a wonder drug! But he also told me a heathly horse with good immunity won't get lice(unless around lots of infected horses). He had an old horse that got lice, he treated it and got rid of the lice and the horse died shortly after. I am afraid something else is really wrong with my horse (something deep inside that I can't afford to explore, i.e. cancer,tumors) but time will tell I guess--he is old. Sorry to share that news! Try to see if you can find lice--also I think I read somewhere that Betadine is not good to use on their sheath, I will look around here and see if I can find it for you. I may be wrong-- |
| Member: Bucky |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 19, 2004 - 2:12 pm: It came from this book Horse Owner's Vetrinary Handbook, by James M. Giffin, M.D. and Tom Gore, D.V.M.In reference to cleaning the sheath "Ivory soap in warm water makes a good wash solution. Do not use iodine-containing preparations such as Betadine or antiseptic soaps such as Chlorhexidine. They can be extremely irritating to the prepuce and penis." This is in reference to cleaning though and I don't know if it applies to sores or problems of sheath. If your vet told you to do it ignore this message, I am no vet!!} |
| Member: Monie |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 19, 2004 - 3:33 pm: Hi Thanks Dr O, Thanks Mandy.Dr O: If I use ivermeticin, How is it used? Is it a liquid? Can I wash the inside of the sheath with it? I'm sorry I'm being so ignorant but I have never needed it before. Mandy: Yes I deworm the horses regularly every 3 months as suggested by the vet. I have two horse. The gelding, who is Tunisian probably with TB. I have been told he was imported with several others when he was young and a TB mare born locally. We don't have passports here so I'm not sure of her breeding. For some reason her previous owner knew who the sire was but not the dame. I'm in Malta. At the moment the weather is quite cold. Nothing compared to what some of you have to suffer through further north!! & often windy. So not many bugs at this time of year but we soon will have quite a few flies. The mare suffers with sweat itch which I believe is brought on by mites. I'm only supecting lice/mites from the discussion you have all been having. The vet had suggested I wash with saline solution & betadine and I hate doing it too often as I feel it dries up the area too much & following your last post, it confirms my idea, so I thought I would give it a try with the Ivermeticin. He's 18 and seems perfectly fit. I'll let you know how it goes!!! I have noticed one side of his sheath sometimes gets swollen. I think it happens mainly when I get too busy to exercise him enough as I find it's fine after some good exercise. My trainer said its due to lack of exercise!!!??? I don't know enough!! That's why I love this site, I have learnt lots since I joined. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Friday, Feb 20, 2004 - 6:56 am: Ivermectin comes like your other deworming products: a paste in a tube and you give it orally.We have an article on cleaning sheaths with pictures(!), see Care for Horses » Routine Care & Procedures » Sheath Cleaning in Horses. Whatever you use be sure to rinse well. DrO |
| Member: Monie |
Posted on Monday, Feb 23, 2004 - 4:54 pm: Thanks. Yes I have found invermectin and realised I had used it before. The only problem is the info on the packet is all in Hungarian!!! Anyway I have used it and will now take a look at the article you suggested. Once again thanks |
| Member: Bucky |
Posted on Wednesday, Jun 16, 2004 - 2:48 pm: Follow Up Post:I don't think he had lice. He stops kicking and itching when I feed him MSM. If I don't supplement his diet with it he starts up again. Interesting. Thanks for help. |
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