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  Discussion on Chronic sore feet with abnormal appearing soles
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Member:
Makakoa

Posted on Saturday, Jan 24, 2004 - 9:28 am:

Deaer Dr.O:
I have a question about a friend's horse. This is a 15 year old TB gelding with a long history of sore feet after trimming. He has been barefooted for the winter, and his (relatively new) farrier has been very nervous about removing much, if any, sole from his front feet since he seems to be so very sore afterward. This is a horse that has always had a tendency toward flat soles in general. He is turned out about 12 hours per day unless the weather is very bad.

I don't see this horse often, since my friend lives a couple of hundred miles away. But due to a family emergency, I was called upon to go to the stable where he is kept in order to look in on him.

He had been seen by his farrier two days before my arrival. The hind feet looked normal, ie., had normal shape, hoof wall length, and a slight cup to the sole. It was obvious that they had been trimmed and rasped in the normal way.

However, the front feet looked quite strange! They were very elongated, and there was about an inch more length in the toe than I would like to see. The overall impression of shape was that they were almost rectangular, with a little more hoof on the medial surfaces than on the lateral.
At first, I thought that the front feet hadn't been touched at all, but when I picked them up, I saw that the hoof wall had been smoothed slightly with a rasp but probably had not had any horn removed with nippers. The sole of the foot had not been trimmed whatsover, and actually "bulged" upward past the walls, so that he is bearing all the weight on the sole and little if any on the walls. Except for the hardness of the sole, it looks the way padded llama feet look!

All of this might be okay if the horse were comfortable, but he is noticeably lame. He was reluctant to walk about and adamantly opposed to trotting so that I couldn't get a very good idea of where the pain was localized, but I do think that it is front hoof pain with the right front the worst.

About 2 months ago, he had a bad episode of pain in his hind feet, and the vet had him wear styrofoam pads for a couple of weeks. I never did hear an actual diagnosis at that time, the owner simoly attributed the problem to post-trimming pain, although requiring the pads seems a bit drastic for a trimming problem.

We have been experienceing some very cold and icy weather, and the fields are "choppy" and jagged, which complicates things by making it hard for the horses to find a comfortable flat area to walk. I can't tell if this is a factor or not, since he seemmed very sore on flat barn aisle areas.

Here is my question: is it doing more harm than good for the soles to become the weightbearing structures of this horse's hoof? The owner and her farrier have become so fixated on producing a thicker sole that it seems as though they have gone too far with the program. It certainly isn't making him more comfortable!

For some reason, they seem to think that the horse should not wear shoes in the winter...while I think that he would be happier wear shoes AND full pads if the soles are very tender when normally configured.

Any words of advice for us? Should she be thinking about seeking more extensive veterinary care, as in radiographs or something? She has had 2 or 3 different farriers in the last 2 years, I doubt if that is the answer totally. I think that she has made this farrier afraid to take of any sole at all, so he doesn't!

Looking forward to your replly,
Anne B.
Member:
Christos

Posted on Saturday, Jan 24, 2004 - 12:18 pm:

Anne,
Is this farrier a registered professional?
Member:
Makakoa

Posted on Saturday, Jan 24, 2004 - 1:04 pm:

As far as I know, he is a graduate of a farriery school, although I think that he began to practice within the last year or two. I have never met the individual myself. My friend says that her vererinarian knows this farrier, and did not seem to have any reservations about her using him.
Member:
Christos

Posted on Saturday, Jan 24, 2004 - 5:38 pm:

Anne,
The sole of the hoof should not be the main weightbearing surface. It can not deform as well as the wall to accomodate shock and there's very important sensitive tissue under it that can be bruised and damaged.
On top of it, if the walls are not bearing most of the weight, the hoof siply does not work properly.
The soles of this horse will thicken somewhat from this punishment, but the advantage gained will be lost again a couple of months after the hoof is trimmed properly.
There are numerous other horse-friendly ways to toughen the sole in order to compensate for thinness. Adequate exercise, a biotin/methionine supplement and formaldehyde applications work wonders.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Jan 25, 2004 - 9:49 am:

I hate to make judgements third hand Anne, but this does not sound good. Your finding an unwillingness to trot probably indicates both feet are painful. Persistant concussion to the sole can lead to chronic bruising which can lead to founder or abscessation.
DrO
Member:
Makakoa

Posted on Sunday, Jan 25, 2004 - 5:52 pm:

Thanks for the input, Dr. O. & Christos. I felt myself that this is not a good situation, but never having seen a horse with hoof walls shorter than the sole, I wasn't sure if that in itself could be a problem. I will suggest to my friend that she have a veterinary consultation and possibly involve her farrier, or even consider a new farrier. This horse is indeed on a hoof supplement containing biotin and methionine, and he gets his soles painted with Keratex, which I think contains formaldehyde.
At this point, it might be best to apply shoes to keep the pressure off the soles, as well as trimming the soles back to a more reasonable level. Any opinion on the use of pads?
Thanks!
Anne
Member:
Canyon28

Posted on Sunday, Jan 25, 2004 - 6:10 pm:

If the horse is sore footed, the farrier should not be taking off sole! The horse needs all the sole he can get. If he wants to put a shoe on him to get his sole off the ground, he should level the area where the shoe goes, but leave as much sole intact as possible.
If his hoof wall is shorter than his sole, then he needs to be in shoes that will give him extra support and get him up off of his soles. I would not use pads, as the experiences I have had with a full pad caused even more trouble, and I ended up losing my mare because of abcesses forming under the pads got into her coffin bone. Maybe a rim pad might help, but I will never allow a farrier to put a full pad on a horse I own ever again. The pad was a very expensive pad that was made in canada and was reccommended by my vet. The problem with full pads is they trap and create their own moisture, and anerobic bacteria form under them since a horses foot is not sterile. It is like creating a miniature sewer, and nothing good can come of it. A good farrier will use the new compounds that are made of a liquid rubber like material and can be used to form a frog pad or a bar across the back of the shoe. the horses sole must be able to breath and dry out. chris www.canyonrimranch.net
Member:
Gingin

Posted on Sunday, Jan 25, 2004 - 8:15 pm:

Christos,
one question...do you think it matters whether a farrier is a "registered professional" or not??? I would be interested in hearing your opinion on this......
Christine
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Jan 26, 2004 - 8:03 am:

I agree with Christine: it would be a rare condition where you remove the sole of sore footed horse. You try to buile the walls back up.
DrO
Member:
Makakoa

Posted on Monday, Jan 26, 2004 - 8:35 am:

Thanks, Dr. O & Christine. The reason that I thought one might have to remove at least some sole is that it will require a pretty thick shoe to lift the horse up off the sole that is now present, but perhaps there are such thick shoes, or maybe farriers can build up the shoe with some sort of "shim" device. Also, the sole that bulges outward has a rather abnormal appearance; it looks very porous and weak, even flaky, not much like the smooth harder soles one usually sees on the bottom of a horse's feet. But I take your point about not removing any sole if the horse already has a problem with tender footedness. Thanks again!
Anne
Member:
Christos

Posted on Monday, Jan 26, 2004 - 8:41 am:

Yes, Christine, I think it matters.
The reason I think so is that a licence is usually issued by an authority that has the power to remove it, should the holder prove unvorthy of it.
That is a means to ensure that the dangerous ones are removed from the trade, it is not, however, such a guarantee on the quality of the work.
I have seen amateur farriers doing unbelievable things, as hitting a horse on the spine with the hammer. I think that a registered professional would be more careful, in fear of losing his job.
I have also seen experienced and educated "amateurs" doing a shoeing job far superior to the average licenced professional.
Member:
Belhaven

Posted on Monday, Jan 26, 2004 - 9:35 am:

Christos you would be surprised-as there is no legal licensing requirement in the states, the best you will get is a certification-like AFA certified farrier. Unfortunately I have not found any correlation between certified and good work.

I also agree that LIVE sole should not be removed...it is very hard to comment but two thoughts popped in my head-

1. The odd bulging sole-is it bulging like the coffin bone has rotated? Either way NO live sole should be removed.

2. Is it LIVE sole that he is walking on or chalcky dead sole that SHOULD be removed? It is just hard to tell from the description.

As always can you post pictures!!!
Member:
Canyon28

Posted on Monday, Jan 26, 2004 - 11:33 am:

Yes, I think it matters very much, and the farrier should be a graduate of the AFA if you have a horse that needs corrective shoeing of any kind. The farrier I use for all of my corrective shoeing is a journeyman AFA farrier and i believe he is one of the few in the united states that could go to europe and practice. The europeans have a much stricter code and licensing requirements than the US, which apparently has none, most of the farriers in my area are what is known as 'cowboy farriers" . One told me that shoeing horses isnt "rocket science", but it still requires a very good working knowlege of equine bone structure and leverage. Most cowboy farriers know nothing about the horse's bone structure. If they attended a good school and went to farrier clinics like my farrier does, they would learn that corrective shoeing is a science. What works for some horses will not work for others. It is not like putting tires on a car. Most foot and hoof problems come from poor farrier care(shoeing with wrong angles, taking off too much heel or toe, too small of shoe,setting the shoe too far back or too far forward,feet not level, etc) of lack of farrier care all together in pastured horses.I firmly believe that a horse with foot problems needs a prfessional farrier's care, which means an AFA farrier. chris www.canyonrimranch.net
Member:
Christos

Posted on Monday, Jan 26, 2004 - 12:44 pm:

I am not surprised, Leah, as there's no legal requirement for a farrier's licence in Greece either.
A licence certifies one's studies and abilities, and I believe this strongly relates with good work.
I do believe, for instance, that a person that had bothered to study the trade and get a licence would never let a horse walk on its soles.
Member:
Makakoa

Posted on Monday, Jan 26, 2004 - 2:03 pm:

Leah, the "bulging" sole does indeed appear as a chalky, weak substance, much different from the appearance of "live" sole. It doesn't look like the coffin bone pressing downward, but rather as though the sole is not wearing away or flaking off as one might suspect. Perhaps the regular use of Keratex is preventing sole reduction through natural wear? Unfortunately, photos are not possible at this time, but I may be able to get some during the coming weekend when I return to the area where the horse is stabled.
Anne
Member:
Christos

Posted on Monday, Jan 26, 2004 - 4:01 pm:

Anne,
Some horses, when untrimmed, shed their old soles in one whole piece every few months.
Are you sure that the sole you see is solidly attached to the hoof? Can you try lifting it off the hoof with a hoofpick?
Member:
Makakoa

Posted on Monday, Jan 26, 2004 - 4:18 pm:

Hmmm. I didn't actually try to do any disturbing of the sole. I suppose that it might be possible for the whole thing to come off at once, but it seemed (visually) to be pretty firmly attached, at least well enough to keep his walls from coming in contact with the ground first. However, will look into this when I see the horse on the week-end. Thanks for the suggestion--
Anne
Member:
Kthorse

Posted on Monday, Jan 26, 2004 - 7:38 pm:

I just wanted to say that I was having alot of problems a few months back with my horses feet. I was told he was flat footed in the front, (soles equal to wall). I had been using hoof hardners on the sole as he had a bad stone bruise. This unfortunatly didnt seem to help. He started cracking up the hoof wall. Thats never happened before(I didnt put the hardner anywhere near the wall). The last few weeks I have been using neatsfoot oil/ and a little pine tar. (to help stop snow balls) and his sole has automatically been wearing away as it should. His feet actually are starting to look better. I know its probably coincidence, but sometimes the things you use to fix a problem actually make it worse. I think, I am not going to use hardners any more as they seem to make my horse worse. He has always had tough feet, but my excesive riding on rocks made his feet tender. Hey you never stop learning. I had my farrier not touch his sole also last trim. He was reluctant, however the soles wore away better than if it was trimmed. His feet are starting to look great
Katrina
Member:
Gingin

Posted on Monday, Jan 26, 2004 - 7:42 pm:

Hello Christos and Christine,
I guess I must be a rare "customer" who has seen the exeption to the rule if the rule is that licensed farriers are to be better than "cowboy farriers"....
My current blacksmith is not a licensed farrier but is probably the most knowledgeable and talented farrier around. He is well versed in corrective shoeing, has an incredible eye for proper balance and trims/shoes definitely for future hoof growth, is willing to discuss strategies and works with the horse owner....then again, the farriers who almost did my horses feet in were both licensed, opinionated, and definitley way to "advanced" to answer questions from a mere horse owner such as....hmmm what do you think about these long cracks that are appearing down both of my horse's front hooves...anything I should worry about? Anything I should do.....but noooo, the licensed farrier could only comment that this happens all the time! Just dry hooves!
Then, 6 months later both cracks were all the way coronet to the ground and so deep that you could hear the hoof "Squeak" from the two sides rubbing...underrun heels and long toes not to mention....that's when I took my friend's advice and called my current farrier....
What I have learned is that to be a good farrier, you need a good eye, understand balance and mechanics, recognize cause and effect and be able to translate all this into correct trims and proper shoes and be good with horses....a license does not guarantee this but experience and a willingness to learn and adjust your techniques does!
By the way....if having a license prevents people from getting stupid around horses and abusing them such as hitting them with hammers, etc...then we should try to get a licensing board established that licenses horse owners.....some would greatly benefit from some training! :-)

Sorry about this being a gripe session...I just get worked up on this issue because it is often presented too black and white for me....

Christine
Member:
Christos

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 27, 2004 - 8:45 am:

If you can't file a complaint with the board that issues the licence, or if that complaint has no actual effect, then of course that licencing board not only has failed to support any reason to exist, but it also gives people the false impression that somebody is actually guaranteeing a work of completely uncontrolled standards.
You may find it ridiculous, but yes, I would support establishing a licence for horse handlers and riders (not owners). I think that the athlete's licence one must posess to participate in equestrian competition is a good basic line for it.
Member:
Gingin

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 27, 2004 - 7:00 pm:

Hi Christos,
I don't think it is ridiculous at all to support a license for horse handlers and riders (you are right, horse owners are not always handlers or rider), or for farriers...actually sounds like a good idea, but you are right, what good is a license if a board is not willing to do anything about "malpractice"....A good alternative would be horse owner education to be able to identify a good professional. For US farrier licenses, they actually publish the test standards and expected results on the web...I looked at them and consider them bare minimum requirements to be allowed to work on a horse and not necesarily assurance for competence for more advanced shoeing.....that's why, after the messup with my last farriers I made it my responsibility to be able to identify a good farrier and actually did some reading and learninig on the principles of basic and therapeutic shoeing...there is a LOT of info out there to educate the average horse owner (not to make suggestions or do-it-yourself, but rather to have an educated opinion about what at least the minimum capabilities of a farrier should be). I prefer making my own assessment of a professional's competence (you may find THIS ridiculous, but I do sort of "job interviews" with professionals who's work is really important for me, like farriers, horse dentists and vets, get recommendations and watch this person's work, if possible, before I sign them on, its the quality of work, handling of the horse and competence that matters to me).

You said you have to have an athlete's license to compete in equestrian sports? What's involved in that?

Christine
Member:
Christos

Posted on Thursday, Jan 29, 2004 - 11:24 am:

Christine,
As far as I remember, it included a very basic dressage test, one single jump of 80 cm and an elementary theoretical examination.
I tried to find the current test, but can't reach the people who organise it and nobody seems to know what exactly it will include this year.
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