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  Discussion on Urgent- high white cell/ 105 fever in 8 month miniature horse
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Member:
Bethyg2

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 3, 2004 - 12:27 am:

Hello- I was wondering if someone who was familiar with minis could help me out a little, because I just had a mini shipped from Texas to Florida, which took two and a half days, mostly driving and resting (No layovers) The little guy looked beat when he got here and layed down in the pasture. He looked lethargic so I took him in and took his temperature. It was 104.7! The vet came asap and gave 1/3 gram bute (he weighs less than 100 lbs) and intravenous Baytril. Later that day I learned that Baytril is not a safe and proper drug for young horses- Naxel (sp?)would have been better. my vet said she didn't consider using it because it was $100 for one small bottle. What is that? Don't I get a say? I would have approved this if it was the drug of choice. Why give an unsafe drug? Especially as the first antibiotic tried. I then learned that this vet suspected rhodococcus, but there was no coughing and the x-ray was totally clear. First, am I wacky to be upset about the potential for cartilage damage to the 8 month old colt? Second, can this be a simple case of shipping fever? The white count that came back today was 35.7 K/uL DVC 22%, HGB 9.0, FIB 1200 I have no idea what this means. The little guy seemed better tonight, and I am checking in on him periodically. I am just concerned that he isn't getting good veterinary care.Changing antibiotics and all. Maybe x-rays aren't enough to rule out rhodococcus, maybe an aspiration of bronchial secretion is warranted. I was just told to crush up a pill and a half of my own (human) Z-pack with applesauce for 7 days. What should I do? I feel like I really have to be his advocate here.I am so concerned I can't sleep- I'm going out to the barn now.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 3, 2004 - 10:41 am:

The fact the foal is 8 months old and a mini may help and a one time dose probably will not cause problems with the joints. But the drug should not be used in foals.

Shipping fever means differnt things to different people and ther is not enough information in your post to know how serious a problem this is. Since everyone is concentrating on the respiratory system as where the infection is coming from perhaps you should start with Equine Diseases » Respiratory System » Nasal Discharge, Cough, and Fever. It helps you differentiate the various common causes of shipping fever and other more serious infectious diseases.
DrO
Member:
Bethyg2

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 3, 2004 - 12:16 pm:

Dear Dr. O,
Thank you for your prompt response on the above post. The big question I have is whether this is a case of common "shipping fever" -whatever that is- or something grave and sinister, which the wildly high white count seems to indicate and which my vet seems to believe. That this is a less than 100 lb. miniature horse foal complicates matters as my vets are used to giant grand prix jumpers, not minis. There is scant info on whether this sort of thing occurs in minis just from stress and minor resp. infections. By way of update, foal's temp was 99.5 this AM, he ate handful of his complete feed and is now grazing. His manure is not plentiful, and looks a little dry/ maybe w/ mucous. He is alert and staying by the side of another gelding and grazing and lying down intermittantly. I saw him drink once, a few swallows. His temp at 11:30 AM was 101.5, it is a sunny day here in S Fla. Unfortunately the foal has an enlarged lymph node (?) under his chin (under the cheek area) - who knows what this is- we didn't check for it yesterday. I found it myself this AM. Today he was given, by the vet, a pill and a third (human dose) of crushed Z-pack (I forget the antibiotic name) , gastroguard, and I am to administer the pro-bio gel at 4 pm. The vet said that Z-pack is the latest treatment of Rhodococcus, she just went to a seminar. She didn't feel good about giving Naxel shots as it doesn't touch Rhodococcus, if that's what it is.(Naxel is a good choice otherwise as it by-passes the gastro tract, I heard)
This foal was given a clean bill of health on Friday,by a very reputable Texas A and M vet before he was shipped, and I was just wondering if Strangles or Rhodococcus could develop that fast (the discussions seemed to indicate a longer incubation period for both, and the farm is reporting no cases) What the foal was exposed to on the shipping van is a mystery, except that it was too quick for something to develop (in about 50 hours). Does this sound reasonable?
More blood was taken this AM to do seriology for S. Equi antibody. No Nasal discharge, no cough, no fever so far today, but it is just 11:45 AM. Does this sound like a case of Rhodococcus? The discussions seemed to say that rhodococcus is more of a continuous fever. Also coughing is usually present along with something seen on a chest x-ray- we have none of that so far. But my vet said he can start coughing on the third or 4th day of the illness. My big question, now that the 8 month old foal is on Z-pack,is what else could cause his white count to be so outrageously high? (37,000) We repeated the blood tests to be sure- will find out later this afternoon to see if there is a change. We are really looking to confirm the count, as the vet does not expect a vast change in 24 hours. I am pretty regretful that I didn't quarantine this foal, as my other mini and quarter horse are now exposed to whatever the problem is...But how can you really quarantine on a 5 acre place. Any info on Z- pack would be much appreciated.....sorry for long post.
Member:
Bethyg2

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 3, 2004 - 5:14 pm:

update on foal- 103.5 at 2 pm on second day- given bute again.
Still hoping someonewith mini foal experience will comment/ give advice/ share experience/ etc.
-Beth Gordon
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 4, 2004 - 6:34 am:

Neither this elevation in the WBC count nor the high fever are signs of a serious disease and may be a response to common infectious diseases. The findings on a physical exam, particularly the vital signs, and the progress of the disease are how you decide how serious a problem the horse has.
DrO
Member:
Bethyg2

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 4, 2004 - 3:05 pm:

Dr. O- thank you for that info, I was worried sick about the white count and fever.So far his vital signs are good. To update, the colt's mornings are normal, he eats, drinks, then gets a fever at 11:30. He gets gastroguard, pro-bio Zythromycin, and bute for fever. z9I am concerned about ulcers as his breeder said minis are prone to it- but do I have a choice? We need to get his fever down) Today again we x-rayed his chest- continues to be clear (whew!) but he coughs on trotting in hand.He wheezes intermittantly. Vet does not hear the wheeze in lung or uper resp area, only in throat. So she took an x-ray of his head, only to see two, not one, enlarged lymph node or abcess. She is concerned that the one we can't feel is the one that may be impinging on the throat. But again, he is able to eat. Not with gusto, but he does get it down. Also grazes when not feverish. Major problem- no scope here for a mini!!! I spoke to his old vet in Texas, who has a small scope just for minis. Of course it doesn't help us here. We will see how the attempted scope w/ the regular horse one goes today at 4. -Beth Gordon
Member:
Paix

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 4, 2004 - 5:30 pm:

My young draft had a fever (at 3y/o) (unknown origin) that peaked to the end of the therm (106++?) about 11 am every day for 6 days.

I used bute once, before the Vet came. Then, he got a Tetanus shot and a IV shot of ketoprofen and I also used banamine. (I used the ketoprofen the first day when bute didnt seem to help and then again about the third day when the banamine didnt budge the fever).

Maybe, like for me, the change in NSAIDS helped the body react more efficiently? He still never got below 104.8 the first 6 days.

The banamine use was "as needed" - not scheduled doses.

If he DrOpped due to all the icing and towels, etc... then I didnt use it - but nothing seemed to help at 11am - so he usually had banamine at that time and then all the ice - if he went to the end of the therm again, despite my other measures, I would give him more banamine.

I think, what helped him tremendously, was all the ice, ice water and fan I used continuously. I slept down at the barn with him for the first 4 days to keep checking his temp and keep him "iced."

I went thru 75-100 lbs of ice a day. I had a bucket of ice water set up with soaking towels I kept rotating on his body after heat exchange.

I hosed him down a couple times during peak heat so he was dripping, then right back to the fan, ice and towels. (note: he wldnt urinate in the spot I had set up with fan & ice - I needed to let him into his stall off n on during the day to urinate)

He spent most his day with a fan in front of him blowing over a large tray of ice (home made A/C), he began eating the ice and slurping the ice water the first day - which also kept his face right in front of the fan.

When stalled at night - he had a fan blowing on him continuously and ice water available in his stall.

I was amazed with him! As was the Vet who had not experienced a horse gobble up ice like he did.

This was a 3y/o severly abused PMU DraftX I rescued only 4 mos before this fever onset. When I got him, you couldnt even look at him much less approach him and most certainly you could not touch him without him nearly killing himself to get away.

Now he was allowing all this hub-bub around him. Sounds of ice breaking and spilling in buckets, towels draping all over his body, PLUS I rubbed him down with ice between his legs, inside his thighs, feet, bulb area, etc..

All the hottest areas (blood closest to surface) and, (thinking of my own high fever and what spots on my body relieved me) - palms of hands, wrists, forehead, neck, behind ears, keeping my hair UP, etc... same places I iced him down.

I also braided his tail and his mane was up into little buns on top of his neck - he had a very funny bun between his ears - he was quite the comedy strip picture - but this allowed more heat to efficiently leave his body.

I think it made all the difference for him. It still ran its course (Vet expected 10 days - he went 12), but I really believe if I wld have just left it to the NSAIDS, he wld have had a seizure or possible brain damage after 6 days of this extreme end-of-the-therm range 105.6-106++

I did check with three diff therm AND I took a baseline from all the other horses in his barn. (I did this at first bc I never experienced in 25 yrs, a horse having this high a fever, still eating and drinking, and no other obvious symptoms). We were at the peak of our summer heat here. That did not help at all!

No other horse had anything like it before or after him at the barn, plus the barn from where he came (a month prior), no one was sick there.

I cant say enuff about the ICE and cooling down his body. His temp would DrOp within 20 mins or so from when I would wet him down, apply iced towels, he had towels drapping over him from between his ears continuously down his neck and back and on over his rump.

It seems u have a few things showing something is going on - things that didnt show with my horse.

I just wanted to share this experience in case some of the things I did can help make ur mini more comfortable and able to fight off what is happening with his own system as well as what medicine is decided best for his situation.

I try to stay away from antibiotics unless clearly indicated. I think, like in human medicine, they are overused. I am not a Vet, (I studied human medicine), this is just my opinion from a lot of reading, research and life experience.

Because of an auto immune disorder, I often have fevers and high WBC counts. This combination does not indicate antibiotic use necessarily, IMO.

If I wasnt sure of the treatment course the Vet was taking, I might get a different Vet out there, too. The Vet I use has three Vets at the practice. I didnt necessarily question the first vet, but still asked for one of the other vets when asked for a second call the next day.

I wanted a different opinion and to hear someone elses experience. They did have different ideas about when (related to min fever) to administer banamine.

Based on my experience with my horse so far, (how well he was doing with ice, etc...), I chose to follow the more conservative baseline for banamine use. He never received any antibiotics.

Good luck with ur baby. Keep us posted - we all learn from each other and our experiences.


Member:
Bethyg2

Posted on Thursday, Feb 5, 2004 - 12:16 pm:

Dina, thanks for that info, I will try ice. It is hot again here down in South Florida. Which I believe is better than chilly, in this case.

Dr. O, how important is it to scope these two lumps in his mandibular area? (One you can feel, the other showed up on x-ray.) If it is very important, I will move heaven and earth to locate a vet that has a small scope. To update, I took the horse to the vet this AM so they could put a scope up his nose to see what the mass was- an enlarged or abcessed lymph node or an abcess in the gutteral pouches that needs to be drained. His vitals were good, 100.7 temp, which is high normal (before 10:00 AM they said it should probably be down to 99, but the trip in the back of the pickup - the BACK SEAT, no kidding probably raised it up from stress), but of course the scope didn't get past the end of the nasal passage into the pouch area. So it was a bust- wasted trip. But they said continue on the antibiotics becasue although the lungs had no water they did show a little something in there that needed to be treated. He still makes a clearing the throat kind of noise, now more often. He eats, drinks, passes manure, and is alert.
I am most concerned about the head x-ray, which shows that the abcess, or whatever, impinges on the esophagus so that only about 1/3 of the esophagus is visible at one point- you can actually see it constrict. They are not sure if if is actually impinging and/or constricting the esophagus, but it is possible- the other possibility is that the abcess is simply overlaid on the side of it, and blocks the view. Since he is wheezing intermittantly, usually when he bends the neck (flexes), I think that this thing is causing him some serious discomfort. So basically, I need to find a vet with a small scope so they can get in there and se what's what. They seem to feel if he is eating, drinking, taking antibiotics and gastroguard, and alert, to let nature take its course is the best medicine. I agree, but would have felt better if we scoped him to get a definite diagnosis and course of action. With that thing in there, I am afraid it might grow while I'm not around (I work)and choke him. :-( I also should mention that he is not showing any nasal discharge at all.
-Beth Gordon
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Feb 6, 2004 - 8:28 am:

Unfortunately I cannot judge from here and my first inclination is to listen to those who can see the horse and radiographs. If you are still worried a second radiograph taken from a different angle will "place" the mass. Then sending them off to a radiologist for a second opinion might give you the information you desire.
DrO
Member:
Bethyg2

Posted on Friday, Feb 6, 2004 - 10:51 am:

Thanks Dr. O- I am going to suggest that. The mini's vital signs continue to be good- plus he is eating, but that wheeze is becoming more frequent. (Still is intermittant tho') My vet located another vet with a pediatric scope but he is working all day at the track so that isn't really happening today- I may beg him to get here afterwards. (I have no shame....)Or tomorrow (Sat) Only other option is to take the mini 4 hours to University of Florida at Gainsville. More stress for the little guy. (Not to mention me...) No one wants to trailer him for fear of strangles. I don't have one- I can get him there in a van if I have to. Anyway my vet told me that the head x-ray doesn't tell her if the masses are in the pouch or elsewhere,but she wants to drain them before they impinge more on the airway, but does not feel competent to go in "blindly" and do it. I am nervous. Gainsville seems like the best option. This is getting expensive...... Today the blood results showed antibodies to the strangles bug- he was evidently exposed well before he even got on the van in Texas,or so said the report (exposure was determined to have ended 4 weeks ago????) So that is what he probably has. I am worried for the other mini who has been grazing/ drinking from same trough from him. On my place they have not been vaccinated for this disease because my vets said the vaccine doesn't work well and is dangerous/ live.
Do you believe strangles has to be dealt with by draining, or do you believe it should be left to drain itself in its own time? I hear very different opinions on this. My vet says she has never ever seen it drain on its own- various horse people have told me don't touch it , to leave it alone. I am very confused.UPDATE- track vet just called- he is going to lend the pediatric scope- I'm "off to the races" to get it- how nice of him. -Beth Gordon
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Feb 7, 2004 - 10:00 am:

Though they will open on their own I think the horse can be made more comfortable if they are opened, if they are abscessing. For more on this and many other facets of this disease see, Equine Diseases » Respiratory System » Strangles & Streptococcus equi.
DrO
Member:
Bethyg2

Posted on Saturday, Feb 7, 2004 - 9:26 pm:

DR. O- followed your advice and got more x-rays, with the head in different positions, the masses don't move- they retain their shape in all positions. So we know it isn't liquid such as sometimes is in the pouches that can be flushed.The 7 mm scope went up the nasal passage fine but not into the pouch, but came out with no pus. So these are lymph nodes, they think.
I am sort of amazed. Yesterday, because the wheezing was more frequent, the vets gave a large amount of a 10% DMSO solution into a vein. It worked like magic, and the little guy had a great day today, no obvious discomfort like yesterday, he eats pellets, drinks, grazes, plays, and seems OK. But I know that is just a quick fix, because yesterday his white count was 24,000- very high I was told. So, I am going to be as conservative as possible here. The surgeon (a very well regarded doctor among the show jumper people here)came out to the house to see what could be done, and he said not to do anything now becasue it is a very delicate area, the mass that is giving him problems is not at the surface, and there are nerves and major blood vessels there that shouldn't be messed with unless there is no choice. Then again I wish there was a doctor that specialized in minis, or at least had some in their practice. I am particularly interested in your view of the DMSO treatment given here. I am going to look through all posts on the drug to see what's what re: DMSO used for this purpose. Thanks, Beth Gordon
Member:
Bethyg2

Posted on Saturday, Feb 7, 2004 - 9:51 pm:

Dr.O , Just read the Strangles Posts. (Diseases, Resp,Strangles) It is weird that my colt has never had a cold that I could detect.No nasal discharge at all. Not when I had him anyway. Would nasal discharge stop with the abscesses? If there is no nasal discharge, and there was a HIGH (104.7) fever the first day and it has gone up and down (unlike the normal strangles cases) is it possible this is just a bad virus, keeping in mind that this is a very young horse, and that none of his shipping mates (over 2 1/2 days) or farm mates- 50 weanlings- got sick (so far). I have more questions the more I read about this disease. I will be on pins and needles for the next week or week and a half waiting to see if my other horses get sick. -Beth Gordon
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Feb 8, 2004 - 8:04 am:

Hello Beth,
The purpose for the different view was to "fix" where in the horse the mass was I don't believe you can really tell whether it is an abscess or not from the radiographs though its location might aid in what it is.

No, the nasal discharge would persist along with the abscessing lymph nodes I think the lack of it makes Strangles less likely. However it does no good for me to conjecture what type of infection this might be, I think with a persistant fever and high WBC count antibiotics are logical. I do not use much IV DMSO in the practice but it does sound like the little guy is feeling better, whatever the reason.
DrO
Member:
Bethyg2

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 10, 2004 - 11:22 am:

mini update- worm question...
The little guy did so well on the 10% DMSO saline IV that when after three days he started wheezing again, the vet came out and admininstered the same amount again. Like magic, again he is breathing easy and eating, drinking, and kicking (ouch). Yesterday spiked a fever of only 102.7, and stall rest and a fan made it go down.(no bute- I want to avoid it unless absolutely nec. as it can cause ulcers in foals, I hear.)Vets want to repeat bloodwork on Thursday to see if antibiotics have done any good, may consider changing antibiotics after a two day rest. Today marks his 8th day on azythromycin (Z-pack). His lymph nodes are huge, sort of hard, and still no nasal discharge, neezing or coughing. Go figure..... One thing I have observed is that he has rubbed out his tail since he's been here....can a worm infestation cause these symptoms? I am having a fecal done asap. The breeder says he has been wormed but who knows, with 125 weanlings he could have been passed over easily. I have been advised to not worm right now with all this other stuff going on. Plus the tail could have been rubbed because of all the temperature-taking. -Beth Gordon
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 11, 2004 - 7:52 am:

Concerning the itchy tails there are several possibilities see Equine Diseases » Skin Diseases » Overview of Scratching & Rubbing.
DrO
Member:
Bethyg2

Posted on Monday, Feb 16, 2004 - 11:48 am:

Dear Dr. O,
Foal update:
It has been two weeks since we got our very sick 8 month old miniature horse foal. Tomorrow will mark his two week course of Azythromycin. Bloodwork taken two days ago revealed that his white count has gone from an outrageous 37,000 to Saturday's 19,000- still high. He obviously still has an active infection. The vet feels we should change antibiotics to a combination of drugs administered 4 times per day (my kids don't require that much care!) Vet gave us a choice of the combination of drugs, or one that should it get on your skin it will kill you or something, cause irreversible leukemia. (That is not being used on my farm for anything, considering that he spit the z-pack in my eye several times already...) So I am wondering that if it is indeed strangles we are dealing with, is the Z-pack even the kind of antibiotic that will penetrate the lymph nodes?? Will changing antibiotics so soon adversely impact the colt? A lot of people (not vets) tell me NOT to treat w/ antibiotics at all if it is strangles because it impedes the progress of the abscesses - maybe that is what has happened here. But how can you not treat a foal with an infection that bad? Plus the antibody test is only so-so, I have been told by the vet. So various forms of strep can get a positive for s. equi.- not just strangles. Still no nasal discharge, sneezing or coughing- only wheezing on flexing the head because of the large lymph nodes. My other mini- exposed to him all day since he got here- is fine thank goodness. He has never been vaccinated for strangles. No deep wheezing. Also, I am going to worm the foal today before the switch tomorrow with strongid paste- he is very bony and his stomach is a little bloated so I figure it can't hurt- or could it in consideration of everything else going on.
On another note- how peeved should I be with his breeder? I got sent a horse that was very sick- and contracted this at least 4 weeks before shipping according to my vet's interpretation of the titer report. And yet papers were provided that allowed for interstate shipping. My vet says that no way if his air passages were listened to would he have been the picture of health two days before shipping. I don't know what to do. My insurance company wants to "subrogate." Apparently I must do whatever they say as per my policy! I am less concerned w/ that than in getting him better. Also, sending him back - an option- now would for sure kill him. I think this will be the last horse I buy that isn't from right around here. This long haul shipping is for the birds. Also quarantine is a must!Sorry for long post. -Beth Gordon
Member:
Bethyg2

Posted on Monday, Feb 16, 2004 - 12:35 pm:

update- proposed new treatment- erythromycin and rifampin- seems to be the accepted treatment for strangles. But this is not a straightforward case if the breeder is to be believed (she said no nasal discharge ever-) I personally can't tolerate erythromycin for two days even, let alone 30 days.Of course I am not an 8 month foal. Won't the "cure" be worse than the disease itself? I forgot to menton his fibrinogn (sp?)was down to 700 from 1200.So maybe the zpack is having some effect. I am worried that to take him off it now will cause more problems. The vet originally said 30 to 45 days on z-pack I believe. But she is not happy with present response.-Beth Gordon.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 17, 2004 - 6:30 am:

Erythromycin and rifampin is the standard therapy for Rhodococcus not Strangles, though one could see where it might be though useful for abscesses of any sensitive organism. For more on erythro in horses, particularly foals, see the antibiotic section where we have an article on it (and rifampin).
DrO
Member:
Bethyg2

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 18, 2004 - 11:06 am:

DEar Dr. O,
I have also been folowing the discussions on strangles, particularly the recent one posted by Shelly Mueller, wherein she states that she treats early strangles with Pen. G. and the symptoms disappear quicky. To update on my foal, the vet said the bloodwork showed some improvement but she wasn't that happy with it as he had not improved enough. He was taken off the Z-pack as of Monday (Mon was last dose) The Z-pack treatment lasted exactly 2 weeks. His white count went from 37,000 (first day) to 19,000, Fibrinogen (Spelling?) from 1200(first day) to a current 700.This is after 2 weeks. I did read on the horse advice site that one of the several reasons that anti biotics fail in strangles cases is too short a course given. I feel that since he is tolerating the z-pack very well that it is a shame to have to switch. Now I am sort of worried putting him on erythromycin- it is so bad for the stomach.Even with him on gastroguard and Probios, can this treatment do more harm than good, and with the results of the bloodwork would you change the antibiotics after only a 2 week course? Right now the little guy is eating, running, playing, and feisty- I am afraid to risk that. He does show anemia of chronic disease though, for which we are going to start him on "Red Cell." He is definitely not out of the woods as per his recent bloodwork. I am very, very confused here. Today the vet is coming by to see if she can get a needle into the most prominent/ closest to the surface lymph node to try and pull out some liquid to culture it. I guess this is to try and isolate the exact bug to get a handle on the best medicine to fight it. How long it will take to grow in the lab I don't know- maybe keeping him on the Z-pack would have inhibited a good culture. I would be very interested to know your opinion of this procedure and also of the antibiotic situation and the potential for Pen- G. So far, after 48 hours w/ out the azythromycin dose there has been no fever detected. _Beth Gordon
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Feb 19, 2004 - 7:43 am:

Hello Beth,
I cannot judge what is proper for your foal without examination but in general I don't treat bloodwork. 2 weeks therapy is plenty long for most diseases with the exception of Rhodococcus which is what it appears your vet is treating. If this is possible fibrinogen is one way to monitor therapeutic success, for more on this see Equine Diseases » Respiratory System » Foal Pneumonia: Rhodococcus. The article also talks about the antibiotics.
DrO
Member:
Bethyg2

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 24, 2004 - 10:20 pm:

Dear Dr. O,
Foal update/ question- It has been almost one week on new antibiotics (erythromycin- rifampin)Last week my vet was unable to get anything out of lymph node to culture it,thinks it isn't strangles. The foal looks stiff in the front legs to me, and has lost hair for some reason on shoulder and neck in large patches.The hair loss started before the new antibiotics were started, but not the stiffness. (What isn't going wrong!) Plus what has me worried the most was on Sunday, we came home (he was in the pasture around 7 hours) to find a gigantic pot belly on the foal. Go figure. He is really pointy in the hips and croup/ rump area, but has this pot belly that developed in like one day. I found him chewing wood in his stall one night, maybe there was something bad in the wood (arsenic?) that made his hair fall out. I can't imagine he is eating too much, and I know he needs to be outside to play and run- you can't keep a foal in the stall or even exercise a foal- I know both are bad from reading up on the subject here. His stomach is hard to the touch by the end of each day and I am concerned, am having the vet come re-check him . Am really at my wit's end with this one! I did worm him with strongid paste last week.As always,any observations are much appreciated.
-Beth Gordon
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 25, 2004 - 7:26 am:

I am afraid a good physical examination is going to be needed Beth. There are too many possiblilities for more on hair loss see, Equine Diseases » Skin Diseases » Overview of Hair Loss & Irritated Skin. It has clues for you to use to judge the possible cause. The stiffness is potentially serious and should be looked at right away. Let us know what is found.
DrO
Member:
36541

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 25, 2004 - 11:40 am:

Hurting for and with you Beth. I treated an 8mo Trakehner filly for three months with Zithromax and Rifampin and the Rhodococcus infection cleared - fibrinogen normal, lungs clear, joints no longer hot and swollen. Could the stiffness be early joint discomfort? As you're asking, I'd pack this foal to the University 'cause it sounds like you guys are still shooting in the dark... Best Wishes, Stacy Upshaw
Member:
Bethyg2

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 25, 2004 - 12:44 pm:

Stacy, thanks, i am totally confused here. I thought he was getting better but now i see he isn't. I may go to Gainsville this Sat. as I think there is a guy there who specializes in foals. Nearing the end of insurance money tho'

Dr. O, I wonder if the baytril could have done damage to this foal so quickly- he got one shot of Baytril, on a one time basis only (not to be redundant!)but of course now my mind may be running away with me because I have it on my mind- so I am constantly looking at the legs....

I also am concerned about all this erythromycin and wonder if the bloating thing is more harmful than just letting him go without more antibiotic.(The big belly was NOT a gradual thing- it happened all at once, Sunday- but the horse is passing manure normally...The belly looks totally out of place- sort of like a worrmy rescue case with the hips all pointing ) I am having a second opinion visit tomorrow, and a THIRD opinion visit Friday. I hate to do it to my vet but I have got to get a better handle on this situation- I sort of lost confidence (not sure if I was justified or not)when I called Sunday to describe the bloat and was told, just give some bute and continue the erythromycin. The University of Florida is an option also, but leaving him up there is not something I want to do, plus the 3 to 4 hour trip would be very stressful for him. I have become a major worrier, and I don't even do this with my own kids!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Feb 26, 2004 - 8:46 am:

Lets not guess let's try and find out, an examination that localizes the stiffness to the joints should be followed by radiographs. The assesment of the plus and minus of continued antibiotic use must be done by someone who can examine the foal but chronic bloat can lead to bowel obstruction.
DrO
Member:
Jjet

Posted on Thursday, Feb 26, 2004 - 1:37 pm:

Could this be caused by tetanus? The stiffness makes me wonder. Jan
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Feb 27, 2004 - 6:35 am:

This should be fairly easy to rule out on a physical exam, see the article on tetanus for more on this.
DrO
Member:
Bethyg2

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 10, 2004 - 4:32 pm:

8 month old Foal update- becoming more and more hairless!
Losing hair at an alarming rate- now I know what guys go through! Every morning, we wake up and little Ozzie has lost more hair! It is too chilly here to wash him daily. It is probably the least of his problems. We are going to do more bloodwork tomorrow to see how he is and if we can safely stop the antibiotics after 30 days. Then I will deal with the hair loss. He looks like a plucked chicken, very sad... Why do I think the antibiotics are just not helping the hair thing? The other horses do have what we refer to as fungus, but just scratch or flake a little in the neck area. Horse still bloated but passing manure fine. Any ideas as to why he is losing his hair, can it be a result of prolonged antibiotic treatment? Thanks, Beth Gordon
Member:
Jerre

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 10, 2004 - 10:00 pm:

Beth, any chance you could post a picture of your little guy? I've been following the saga and would love to "meet" him.
Jerre
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Mar 11, 2004 - 7:27 am:

Hello Beth,
We have an article on hair loss at, Equine Diseases » Skin Diseases » Overview of Hair Loss & Irritated Skin.
DrO
Member:
Bethyg2

Posted on Thursday, Mar 11, 2004 - 9:31 am:

Here he is, the star of this discussion....
Jerre, thanks for the interest, as you can tell I have been worried sick.It's nice to have a place to come to discuss treatments. Oops, the error message says that nothing over 64 kilibytes will upload, and all my pictures are 850 and up (high resolution) I will try and e-mail you a photo directly if your e-mail is listed with the site.-Beth
Member:
Jerre

Posted on Thursday, Mar 11, 2004 - 10:59 am:

Oops, sorry Beth. 850 would crash my email in my old slow dialup (we're way out in the sticks and our tech options are limited.) Maybe you can edit a photo down to size and share with us later. Jerre
Member:
Liliana

Posted on Thursday, Mar 11, 2004 - 11:46 am:

Beth
Perhaps you could add the picture to your profile, in that way we can all get to meet him?!
I love looking at peoples profiles it kind of bridges communication.
Just a though..
Liliana
Member:
Bethyg2

Posted on Thursday, Mar 11, 2004 - 2:55 pm:

Success! I cropped down the original picture, so now it shows the head only but was less than 64 KB. But look how CUTE he is! It shows up under my profile. I'm rushing home from work to meet the vet so she can take a blood sample, maybe we can get off antibiotics. Thanks.-Beth
Member:
Liliana

Posted on Thursday, Mar 11, 2004 - 8:58 pm:

Congratulations!!

He is so adorable!!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Mar 12, 2004 - 8:24 am:

Don't forget guys you can add a picture directly to your posts using the upload attachment button at the bottom of the Post Form. The file size needs to be smaller than 64k and either jpeg or gif format.
Member:
Bethyg2

Posted on Friday, Mar 12, 2004 - 10:37 am:

Bloodwork Update:
The blood taken yesterday showed weird things- First, the fibrinogen was normal for the first time (I think we took blood 2 weeks ago and then it was between 700 and 800)
Second, the white count was still high- 14,000
Third, the full panel showed serious anemia.
So, the vet suggested a "belly tap" - I balked at such an invasive procedure, especially on such a little guy with no ultrasound guidance. (I am becoming the nightmare patient)I was told to continue the antibiotics until further notice. So we are having an ultrasound of the abdomen done late this afternoon. The vet says it is not good at getting images of the deep abdomen though. My question is this: Can the little guy just be suffering anemia of chronic disease caused by the pleuritis,even if we did cure the pleuritis, and the abdomen is just bloated out from all the antibiotics? I feel that the foal hasn't been fed nearly enough purina junior- at his breeding farm they gave it free choice- I am upping his feed gradually, and now feed it three times a day. However I only have been feeding like that for a few days.My vet feels that there is something else going on to cause that white count. Is this a definite? Or maybe the white count is a result of our winning the war on pneumonia? My feeling is why do a belly tap now so soon after coming out of pneumonia- maybe in 4 weeks he will have regained condition and this will all be behind him? Dr. O, what is your opinion of the recent bloodwork? Specifically, the white count being so high. I have never, thank goodness, had such a sick horse let alone a foal so I don't know what to expect.My inclination is to keep him on antibiotics for the full 30 days and then expect a slow and gradual return to normal-Beth Gordon
Member:
36541

Posted on Friday, Mar 12, 2004 - 1:53 pm:

Dr O., correct me if needed but the tap shouldn't be too dangerous if done away from major organs. The small bowel in humans just drifts away from the needle. We never use anything but local anesthesia and we don't use ultrasound routinely. The cell analysis can be diagnostic. Dr O., do horses get any variant of leukemia? Stacy
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Mar 13, 2004 - 9:22 am:

Yes Stacy is correct belly taps are pretty inocuous as long as proper technique is followed with the foal adequately restrained.

I don't diagnose blood work Beth. Many animals recovering from serious infections have a transiently elevated WBC do to the increase production but decreased consumption now that the infection is gone. As always blood work needs to be interpreted in light of the history and physical exam. Anemia is common following a serious infection (usually due to poor nutrition, metabolism directed elsewhere, and even several different effects of the antibiotic) and whether there may be other causes I cannot say from here.
DrO
Member:
Bethyg2

Posted on Monday, Mar 15, 2004 - 1:56 pm:

Update on foal- GOOD NEWS!The ultrasound showed that everything in the abdomen is normal, nothing to worry about there. Also, the vet who performed the ultrasound was really cool, grew up on a Wisconsin dairy darm, he asked to see what and how much the little guy was eating. So I showed him, and he determined that foal was anemic because I was slowly starving him to death.(I had fed him according to the package but somehow got it all wrong because it does not give feeding amounts for minis- plus he was used to free choice complete feed, a concept I can't get used to.) It was his opinion that the antibiotics were not causing the bloat but the little guy was bloated from malnutrition, like a starving refugee!!!! After I cried I went out shopping for rice bran oil and added a tablespoon to the feed, which I am slowly increasing to 1/4 cup per day,and he is fed now 4 x per day (ration is bigger). I wet the feed so as to get more water in him and to avoid a colic because we want to get him more nutrition fast. So I guess the combination of pneumonia and being starved to death gave him anemia. But I'm on it now! After the weekend he looks better already and actually has a noticeable increase in energy and spirit. I am happy that I kept bugging my vet about his stomach because finally we are getting results- not to say the bloat thing wasn't all my fault, cause it was (I should have known he wasn't getting enough nutrition, but the more bloated he got the less I wanted to stuff him w/ grain), but there is something to be said for the old saying "two vets are better than one...." Plus with a patient that young I think it didn't hurt to have him see a vet experienced with very young animals. With regard to the still high white count, the new vet (a member of my vet's practice) agreed with you, Dr. O, that it is to be expected after what he went through. Thanks for all your help. -Beth Gordon
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 16, 2004 - 7:02 am:

Very good Beth and great that you found someone who could look at what you are doing and give an evaluation.
DrO
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