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| Discussion on Deep mud canter. Beneficial? | |
| Author | Message |
| Member: Christos |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 4, 2004 - 5:47 pm: Can cantering in deep mud (about a foot deep) be beneficial for any horse?I had a very bad argument the other day with a guy whose stallion was beaten stuffless about three months ago by an uncooperative mare. The poor boy was swollen and bleeding all over. The treatment he received was minimal, so no wonder he is now a bit stiff in his movement, to say the least. Now his owner says that to "break" the stiffness in his joints, he canters him in foot deep mud. He swears he sees improvement, I swear I see a moron. I have not seen the horse in the last two months, in fear of having a stroke or ending up in court. He uses the same mud training to (unsuccessfully) break the mare into submission, she's a 7yo ex-racehorse, not very cooperative with beating, yelling and hanging on her mouth. My question is: can cantering in such deep footing, especially mud, be considered safe or beneficial even for a well conditioned athlete? Am I too conservative, or are these people completely irresponsible? |
| Member: Rjbraun |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 4, 2004 - 6:59 pm: Hi I rode in deep mud deep snow and I can tell it wears the horse out faster then about anything else ,not to beneficial that I can see |
| Member: Suzeb |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 4, 2004 - 9:22 pm: Christos,My personal opinion is that this "Training" is barbaric. What is it that this mare has done that she deserves such treatment? These people sound like bullies and I am really sickened by this. I don't think this practice is safe or beneficial at all. Things will get broken, the mares spirit and her legs etc. This is just plain cruel. Susan B. 
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| Member: Mrose |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 4, 2004 - 11:07 pm: Are you serious?! Limited work in deep (4-5 inches)sand helps build muscles-but not on a young horse. This sounds horrendous! Sounds like a good way to ruin a horse. I would be on the phone to police, SPCA or anyone else I could get to listen. I haven't even seen this and am practically frothing at the mouth! "break a mare into submission" by "beating, yelling" who the h--- are these people! They are worse than morons. imo they are criminals!! |
| Member: Eoeo |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 4, 2004 - 11:28 pm: Why would anyone sit back and let this continue? Get ahold of the authorities pronto. This jerk needs to be stopped. He is no horseman. EO |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 5, 2004 - 6:03 am: The horse may continue to heal but not because the work breaks up the stiffness in the joints and the lack of stability of the foot when planted will make him very lucky if he does not bow a tendon.DrO |
| Member: Christos |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 5, 2004 - 9:21 am: LK Ranch,I'd have contacted the authorities a long time ago, was there such an option. Unfortunately, there are no authorities around here that can tell the difference between proper and cruel treatment of horses. To them, if the animal stands on its legs and breaths it is treated fair enough. I've repeatedly tried to talk these people into quitting torturing and crippling their horses and themselves. To no avail. I lend them books. They just look at the pictures (as if they can understand them). Is there any international authority that you know with jurisdiction over here? |
| Member: Mrose |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 5, 2004 - 12:28 pm: If the horses are a particular breed the breed organization might be able to help you. Even if they are mixed breed one of the registries might have some advice or reference for you. (do you have friends that "are connected?" I'd be inclined to give them a call!)
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| Member: Penner |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 5, 2004 - 1:41 pm: We have deep sand here in places. Same effect:1. severe strain on tendons 2. bowed tendons (off 6 mo to a year + major rehab work) 3. shoes pulled off 4. hoof wall torn by shoes pulled off (then may not be able to be re-shod until the hoof wall grows) 5. stress of running in that deep mud can cause all sorts of related problems (laminitis, colic), I would think. 6. Horses can DrOp from exhaustion running in deep footing (I have actually seen that). All things that will happen from deep mud. Maybe some more people can come up with more on this list of bad things that happen. Then print it out & show it to him. Also: International League for the Protection of Horses... They have a phone number & are a multinational organization: https://www.ilph.org/items.asp Hope this helps. |
| Member: Christos |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 5, 2004 - 1:47 pm: Yes, Sara, 95% of these horses are TBs, retired from the track. Ignorant people get them for 300-500 Euro, because owning a horse is cool.The rest, I believe, is self explanatory. No organization interferes, because these animals are, even in this inappropriate way, saved from slaughter. So everybody thinks they're doing them a favour. The only thing I've managed is to spread the word in the race track, hoping that the horse supply to incompetent owners will diminish in time. Thanks, all, for your replies to this post, it is a great help, as it feels kind of lonely down here... |
| Member: Christos |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 5, 2004 - 1:55 pm: Thanks for the link, Penner, I'll seek their advise and help. |
| Member: Sunny66 |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 5, 2004 - 1:59 pm: I feel for you and those horses Christos...forget about my suggestion...Good Luck. |
| Member: Shirl |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 5, 2004 - 2:10 pm: Christos and All, I think people who do this have a mental problem, and an issue wanting to control, so they pick on a poor, helpless animal to abuse. It's tragic. Do what you can Christos and thanks for caring. Shirl |
| Member: Mrose |
Posted on Friday, Feb 6, 2004 - 4:16 pm: Christos-please let us know the response you get fr. the international org. that Penner sent. I feel sorry for you having to be near stuff like this and feeling so helpless. |
| Member: Christos |
Posted on Saturday, Feb 7, 2004 - 3:28 am: I'll let you know of how things develop, Sara.On the other hand, don't be sorry, it is kind of my choice to be in this mess. I can easily turn my back and join the "beautiful" competition world, where everything seems to be to the bebefit of the horse. But I really enjoy trying to help develop horsemanship in everyday riding in my country. Though a lot tougher than competition sometimes, I find it a lot more rewarding with even the smallest results. |
| Member: Imogen |
Posted on Sunday, Feb 8, 2004 - 9:56 am: I think maybe (but not wanting to start another of those enormous argument threads) we also have to bear in mind the cultural differences which can affect treatment of all animals, not just horses.As I'm sure Christos will confirm, most animals get fairly tough treatment in Greece - when I was a student I used to work in Greece every summer and sometimes be very horrified by the treatment of cats and dogs and farm animals. Even here in Ireland, there are great differences to the way animals are treated in Britain. Some are cruel, some are just different. Dogs tend to be left loose here a lot which means they have a more interesting life but do tend to get run over by cars more. And if they show an interest in sheep then they get tied up, sometimes permanently, or shot. I still think a lot of them have a much nicer life for as long as it lasts than cosseted, bored witless British muts. Of course what Christos describes seems crazy and probably cruel, but I'm just saying, different cultures look at these things in different ways... Having said this I still can't think of a good reason for cantering in deep mud EXCEPT that sometimes we canter horses in mud (assuming they are sound and the mud isn't too deep) to knock stupidity out of them when they are a bit too fit. I might do it with a non-thoroughbred horse which has been hunting fit but has to do dressage tomorrow - give it a good uphill canter in a sugarbeet field to tire it out and quieten it for the next day. All the best Imogen |
| Member: Christos |
Posted on Sunday, Feb 8, 2004 - 12:48 pm: Yes, Imogen, I agree.Animals are treated in a very unfair way around here, even by people who honestly feel they care for them. And as I can not find in Greek traditions and culture one tiny little thing that promotes harshness or violence, I believe it is simple, tragic lack of education on the subject. I can not, however, justify criminal ignorance when there's such easy access to knowledge in our days... |
| Member: Mrose |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 11, 2004 - 8:07 am: I think some of what you see might also be what we see here in the states. Some people, unfortuneately, look upon animals as "dumb" and don't think of them as able to feel pain as people. Also, they seem to think of them as just another useful "tool." If it's broken sell at the auction and buy another. And, as you say, some are just uneducated. It's not just horses, we see dogs left out in the cold (and hear them barking all night) have seen them tied on chains with no shelter, water, etc. all day while their owners are at work. Cats that even tho' declawed are just dumped along the roads to fend for themselves, etc. To say nothing of how cows and other livestock are often treated. However, some of these same people don't even treat their children much better. So..... |
| Member: Lanna1 |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 11, 2004 - 2:14 pm: I don't know what to say on this Christos except good luck! I find it horrifying how some people treat their animals and unfortunate that there aren't better laws to protect them!We can only do what we can do & I admire you for at least trying to educate people like this as sometimes it isn't taken very well on the receiving end! Don't give up & never think that you yourself can't make a difference, because you can - you're just not always privy to the results right away!!! Lanna |
| Member: Christos |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 11, 2004 - 3:14 pm: Dear Sara,I am currently spending much of my time trying to persuade people that horses are, indeed, dumb. Considering them smart and capable of understanding easily what we say is the beginning of the problem. I am also trying to persuade people that the horse is, indeed, more a tool than a pet. A magnificent one. Perhaps the tool that opens the gates to feelings unthought of. But yet, like for all precious tools to perform, one must love it and study its use first. Anyway, I am waiting for an answer from our Equestrian Federation these days, if no interest from them I'll seek advice in international organizations. |
| Member: Canter |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 11, 2004 - 4:52 pm: Christos,With the summer Olympics coming to Greece soon, I would imagine the authorities do not want any bad publicity about anything...since some of the best equestrian athlestes in the world will be participating, I would think the last thing in the world the authorities would want would be publicity about inhumane treatment of horses. Can you make enough noise/threats to catch your media's attention? Would it do any good? Worth thinking about, anyway. |
| Member: Jjet |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 11, 2004 - 5:18 pm: Christos:I don't like the choice of words in your last post. To me 'tool' implies something inanimate, not what you want your countrymen to to think when they consider the horse. (I know the semantics can be argued but you're trying to get people to establish a respectful rapport with the horse which is an advantage for both of them.) I know am splitting hairs here! But, a very judicious choice of words, especially to new or unskilled horse owners, can enhance the effect of your advice (and create a receptive atmosphere!) A better analogy might be that they are more on the level of a young child, they must be taught social skills to succeed in the human world. I consider most horses quite able to understand a lot, it's just that people have to learn to 'speak horse' better to 'teach' them what we want them to know. Though I consider myself as the party having the final word with my horses (as does a parent with his offspring), I do consider them as companions with feelings to consider when we undertake a task together... Jan |
| Member: Christos |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 12, 2004 - 9:20 am: You are absolutely right not to like my choice of words, Jan. I am only describing words and ways I use to explain the horse to owners that only care for material profits, so to say. I think they are listening better if one tells them that their bad practices decrease performance/work and increase costs/care, much like bad maintenance of an expensive tool.There are two ways to approach this. One is that one cares and provides for what he loves. The other point is that one will -eventually- come to love what he learns to care and provide for. As for equine intelligence, I will continue teaching that the horse is dumb. Because I believe it is the best foundation to teach people that they can not blame the horse, no matter what. Horses learn, Jan, but they do not understand. You can't call them smart just because they show conditioned responses. Also, if we call them smart, we can transfer to them a tiny bit of the responsibility for what's going on. And that, I believe, would be a serious mistake. |
| Member: Christos |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 12, 2004 - 9:44 am: Fran,The media and the majority of people do not understand horses and they will not bother for some yearlings under saddle or for an old mare with her pedicure postponed for a few months. That's on a different planet for them. I believe the only way is to make a small, dedicated group of horsepeople and try to establish it as an informal authority. Social pressure may be even more effective than law itself. |
| Member: Jjet |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 12, 2004 - 12:04 pm: Christos: Well, I guess that may work for a while, but don't be surprised if they begin to think they know more than you very soon, because when they begin to have some success they will realise there is a brain in there, it just takes good communication skills to reach them.I know that many people overly anthropomorphize their animals but I believe that that is rooted in having observed their pets and other livestock over a long period of time. Those observations show that we share much with those animals, and more is discovered every day. There are many kinds of intelligence, even among humans. I agree that they don't have the type of brain development that is required to read and write or they might be on this post complaining right now! Anyway, were back down to semantics again, word definitions and perceptions. I certainly agree that, as the superior intelligence, handlers should accept responsibility for the relationship and any consequences that should develop as a result of that. |
| Member: Christos |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 12, 2004 - 1:41 pm: Jan, I will insist that horses bear no intelligence. They have brains, they learn to respond to cues, but they're far from smart.I do not believe calling it dumb to be offensive for the horse. On the contrary, in my mind, it just puts it in the "need help and protection" section. I truly believe that intelligence does not put us above no human and no animal. It just shifts all responsibility on our shoulders. |
| Member: Liliana |
Posted on Friday, Feb 13, 2004 - 8:08 pm: Hello ChristosHere goes my grain of sand; inteligence is some what undiscribable, we humans are suppoused to be the most inteligent beings on the planet!!. Yeah right what do we do, bugger everything up even what we need to survive, like rain forests, and oceans it goes on and on. However I do agree, that you have to talk to people in a language they understand. Here in Cozumel, cruelty and ignorance go hand in hand, it is macho land, you know, so "WE have to teach that stupid horse", attitude is what rules. Rome was not built in one day. In England, now there are so many laws to protect animals, and as Imogen comments, people do care about their animals as they do their children or any member of the family, but, many years ago there was a lot of cruelty too. Here, people are poor and uneducated so it will take some time before they see the light sort of speak. But, one thing that has worked pretty well is RELIGION, animals are godīs creatures too, and GOD is watching you. I gues what I am trying to say is that, which ever way it works for you to get through to people just keep trying please what ever happens do not give up! we cannot teach people how to feel or respect anything but, we can at least try and make a difference!! Keep up the good work! I take my hat off for you truly Liliana |
| Member: Mwebster |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 18, 2004 - 11:17 pm: There's a very interesting book on intelligence (in humans) that discusses the multiple intelligence theories of Howard Gardner, but in laymens' terms, called EQ. The concept is that we measure (think: SATs) verbal and math abilities, but there are about 10 other intelligences including social (budding diplomats?), kinetic (future athletes?), musical, visual, etc. etc.It's not a stretch (for me at least) to think about our equine partners as -- well, partners -- that have their own intelligences (talents?) that aren't so strong in the human species. They definitely have a stronger kinetic intelligence than most humans. They're pretty keen on nonverbal cues too, so maybe they've got an equally good social intelligence (just different). They may have stronger "intuitions" in other areas too -- these are intelligences too, I think, in Gardner's sense of the word. I don't think their math and verbal abilities match ours (Clever Hans aside!). But, that doesn't mean we're intelligent and they're not. Note, I'm not suggesting anything at all about relative intelligence! Anyhow, just some food for thought. Melissa |
| Member: Marengo |
Posted on Tuesday, Mar 9, 2004 - 8:41 pm: I read these posts with interest. I rode in Greece for some years with a club named "Ippikos Omilos". They took excellent care of the horses. My instructor was trained by the great Gordon Wright (U.S.). I'm not sure where you are located but it is sad to hear that people are so misinformed about how muscles and bones work in the "machine" named horse, especially with the history of Greece and physical activities. |
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