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  Discussion on Founder in pregnant mare...
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Member:
Lanna1

Posted on Monday, Feb 9, 2004 - 1:19 pm:

Hi everyone, I've been away for a little while as I had a family emergency which brings me to this discussion.

Rather than tell you the details of my story (because it's a long one!) I'll just give you the just of my problem.

I have several horses that may have been effected by founder - they had free access to green feed which they originally were being fed fork fulls over the fence.

Our temperatures reached colder than -50 for over 2 weeks and all the horses seemed to be doing okay until it warmed up!

The day our temperatures rose to around -10 was when we noticed everyone seemed "sick".

Our one pregnant mare seems the worst off, she's noticabley lame and seemingly on all 4 legs - typical findings according to the articles on founder (more stiffness appearance rather than lameness on one or more legs).

We've also had a drastic change in feed due to the circumstances - if you remember me asking for advice about foxtail?

We burned our hay because it definitely became the apparent cause of our mouth ulcerations - due to a severe feed shortage in our area we bought green feed bales from the same supplier being it was all the feed we could find...

The farmer let us know that the feed was tested & tested low in nitrates & protein and shouldn't cause founder as it rated a low quality feed.

Needless to say, I'm now treating 3 horses with varying degrees of laminitis & one mare seems more severe.

I've read the articles, but I haven't found anything on pregnant mares (this mare is due to foal at the end of March)

We're giving her 1gm of Bute 2X per day with a slight improvement in her movement.

Is there anything else that I should or could be doing at this point in time? This mare has been walking lame for nearly 2 weeks now (she's a new mare to us & we were told that she is tender footed on hard surfaces (the ground is frozen hard & I assumed that was her problem!)

Unfortunately, I think now that this mare foundered earlier on when we first started feeding the green feed in our round bale feeders - the other horses seemed uneffected until the weather warmed?

Please share any advice or ask any questions of me to clarify my situation as I am desperate!

I don't want to consider euthanasia for this mare if I don't have to!

Please help,

Lanna
Member:
Suzeb

Posted on Monday, Feb 9, 2004 - 7:34 pm:

Lanna,
What is your water supply or source? Has that been tested lately? Extreme cold weather and then a warm up has a way of bringing up things from the depths of the ground. I am sorry that I cannot help you with the laminitis or lameness symptoms only a vet can help you with that diagnosis.
I know and experienced the -50ºcelcius and it was damn brutal.
If the feed supplier claims that the greenfeed was tested and that the nitrate/nitrite content was OK then perhaps have a look at your water supply.
Another thing to consider about the water in those frigid temperatures is was it too cold that your horses didn't drink enough.
I hope this helps or gives you something else to consider.
Susan B.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 10, 2004 - 6:37 am:

I have to agree if your feed source is low in nutritional quality it seems unlikely that that is the cause of your foundering. A rapid change might cause colic but not founder. I am wondering if your horses have not bruised their feet on the very hard ground. Severe bruising can result in founder and is typically called "road founder". What is happening to your horses is still an open question and you need to get your vet involved, if you haven't already.

Concerning the causes and treatment of founder start with the founder section Equine Diseases » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Founder & Laminitis and the Overview article. The article also deals with evaluation for severity but you will need your vets help for a accurate assessment.
DrO
Member:
Christos

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 10, 2004 - 7:37 am:

Lanna,
Have these horses been out on snow or ice and -50 for long?
Can it be damage from minor frost bite, especially since you describe the tender footed one having the greatest problem?
Member:
Lanna1

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 10, 2004 - 11:04 am:

Hi everyone,

I'll answer everyone's questions in order to make sure I don't miss any...

My water source is hauled in from town & hooked up to a water heater - when it's been cold or stormy we've rode or led the horses out to the water to ensure they've continued to drink everyday.

DrO, I've been in touch with my Vet and described the situation to him in full - the thing about it is, this happened shortly after we started feeding the green feed as our only forage source, seems too coincidental to me? Also, my Vet mentioned that the nitrate & protein values may mean nothing if the energy level hadn't been tested as well? Not to mention, the horses may consume more of the straw when the bale is large & have access to more of the grain as the bale is consumed, causing them to consume more grain near the end then at the beginning...(there did appear to be a great amount of grain (oats) in this green feed.)

I've read all the information on founder & so far it seems that only our one mare has only some of the symptoms. She's lame & appears stiff on all 4 legs when she walks - though this seems to improve once she gets moving.

There isn't any swelling around the coronary band, no heat in the feet, she doesn't stand with her front feet stretched out in front of her, she's not laying down more than normal & she is willing to move, she's just stiff and noticeably lame when she does.

I've considered that it may be bruising of the soles, but why is she so "stiff" appearing on her back legs?

When she's walking, she does appear to be more lame on her left front then any other... which goes against a typical founder.

The bute is helping as she's improved since the start.

My Vet suggested that I continue giving her 1gm of bute 2x per day for 7 days & contact him with the results on the 7th day to figure out what dose I should or shouldn't continue with.

He didn't think it was necessary to come out now to do a set of x-rays, instead he suggested we finish our treatment with bute & then do the x-rays, does this sound right?

I've left a message for my farrier to have him come out as well as this mare could use a trim, she's fairly flat footed & her history is that she can be tender footed...

I don't know about the frost bite Christos, I've never heard of it in a horses feet before?

Thanks so much for all your information and support, I'll keep you posted & continue to evaluate the situation by the day.

Lanna
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 10, 2004 - 10:28 pm:

Cause the backs are bruised too or how about if the front are short the back must be too? Concerning energy, in general low protein content will also insure a low digestible energy content. I cannot judge whether radiographs are indicated or not but I can think of many times I wish I had taken them earlier when a "not to bad problem" hung on and on. On the frost bite issue I have to plead ignorance. I have had no dealing with horses in -50F degree weather and there is no research to refer to. On the other hand we have many Canadian and a few Greenland members and it is amazing how well horses do in the very cold.
DrO
Member:
Tangoh

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 11, 2004 - 9:56 am:

Hi Lanna,

Noticing that you are in BC I thought I'd respond from Saskatchewan because of similar lameness problems we had with a mare of ours last winter during a -50 stretch of weather. What appeared to be founder turned out not to be, thank God. She exhibited classical founder symptoms so we treated it as such, stall rest, soft straw, limited movement and bute. She responded to this treatment after about a week. All we can come up, vets included, is that possibly a hoof trim about 1 week before the icy weather made her extremely sensitive. We don't trim her any longer during winter months and during this past stretch of -50 she did seem a little 'ouchy', but nothing as severe as last year as we now make sure she always has soft straw somewhere to stand on, (and she's always standing on it now) either in the run-in shed or in a protected corner of her winter paddock. She too only showed the lameness last year after it started warming up a bit. I really do think that the weather was a significant factor in her lameness, as do the 3 vets who conferred with us on this issue. Nothing works well when it's -55, a number of our hearty angus cattle also show lameness during these extreme cold temps.

Was your mare's hooves trimmed recently by any chance?

Member:
Lanna1

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 11, 2004 - 2:02 pm:

Thanks DrO & Sherri,

I'm feeling better and better about the prognosis of this mare. Last night she was walking much better and displayed only a slight lameness mostly on the front end & again, seemed most apparent in her left front.

Today is day 5 of treatment with Bute and it appears to be making some improvement.

After reading Sherri's segment I'm even more enlightened - I'm beginning to think that there are more factors here than the feed alone. If anything, it relieves much of my own guilt for bringing this condition on due to my own ignorance!

As for the -50 weather, the horses do seem to cope quite well, amazingly enough! But because this mare comes from a warmer, moister climate I'm suspecting that this is the reason she ended up so lame when others in the herd didn't!

I'll continue to treat her accordingly & follow my Vet's instruction as far as x-rays or other tests are considered.

Now if I could only get ahold of my farrier!!!

I'm just happy to see this much improvement, the first few days were looking pretty glim!

Thanks again,

Lanna
Member:
Tangoh

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 11, 2004 - 2:18 pm:

As a rule, I think most horses in our climate do cope very well, but there's always the odd ball in the mix that is 'high maintenance'. Our other horses don't have any problems with the cold, in fact, I think they prefer -40 than extreme heat in the summer.

Good luck Lanna, hope it turns out to be nothing at all!

Member:
Lanna1

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 11, 2004 - 4:45 pm:

Thanks Sherri, me too! I'll keep you posted on my progress - perhaps this mare is one of those "high maintenance" horses you mentioned earlier, it seems she hasn't felt well since we got her!

Lanna
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Feb 12, 2004 - 8:44 am:

Careful, are you sure this was the farrier before you jump on him?
DrO
Member:
Lanna1

Posted on Thursday, Feb 12, 2004 - 11:25 am:

Oh no DrO,

You must have misunderstood me, I only meant that I've been having trouble tracking down my farrier to get him out to trim everyone up!

I figured it made sense to have their feet trimmed to ensure that that wasn't contributing more to the problem.

My current situation has nothing to do with my farrier, I'm just trying to look after all angles of the problem to do best for my critters!

Lanna
Member:
Liliana

Posted on Saturday, Feb 14, 2004 - 10:24 am:

Hello Lanna,

As usual I am at work and just kind of glance at the advice that everybody is giving so if I reapeat some I do apologise.

However, some time ago we had a TB and a welsh mare that founder (Laminitis) and the main cause obviously is grass that is too rich.
Vet´s advice was, to keep them in the stable on a really deep shavings bed (about 12" high)for about five days, with only hay and no grass. I used a hayhage net as it has smaller openings so it took them for ever to finish their hay and they did not get quite so bored.
Also does your feed has barley? as apparently that is a no no, for a horse that has a tendency to founder, in my experience bute will kill the pain but not necessarily cure laminitis.
Also once a horse founders you will have to watch his grass intake i.e. in spring or after a lot of rain when it is richer, if you catch it early enough it is not that hard to control, the problems start once its gone too far and the wall DrOps and off goes the bone. Then there is no alternative but eutanas}ia.
I guess horses can be a bit like us eh?!, some of us get fat just looking at the food whilst others can eat "like a horse" and not gain an once and have colesterol problems.
Best of luck
Liliana
Member:
Liliana

Posted on Saturday, Feb 14, 2004 - 10:29 am:

P.S.
This was when I lived in England...
Cheers
Liliana
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