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Discussion on De-rotation procedure for moderate rotation
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 5, 2007 - 10:27 pm:
Dr.O. I am trying to get a plan in my head for Hanks's shoeing. I have been reading through the derotation article and it would seem that we might be able to get his hoof in better order without the derotation for severe founder. Could Hanks derotation be done with the steps indicated in the mild to moderate rotation section? Which I believe my regular farrier could do in case I can't get a different farrier for him. (I am trying).
The vet estimated Hanks rotation at 6-8 degrees, with no sinking. He said his sole was thin at 1/2 in., at the coffin bone, but as I stated before these x-rays were not the best imo.
Hank is off bute and walking, trotting normally, with an occasional ouchy step, if he steps on gravel. His soles seem to bruise easily on very hard ground also. Thanks
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Jul 6, 2007 - 8:11 am:
Diane the horse you describe is close to the edge of what is possible without shoes, so from the information you provide, particularly that the horse remains slightly ouchy, I would recommend you go with the more careful shoeing route described.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jul 6, 2007 - 8:45 am:
Thanks Dr.O. I don't intend on leaving him barefoot. I guess my question is could we do regular shoeing... routed out wide web shoe, with some kind of pad for sole protection... while keeping his heel low and "bringing the toe back" and still work on the derotation effort.
If I can't get a different farrier, I don't believe my current one is capable of the derotation procedure in the severe rotation section.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 8, 2007 - 7:21 am:
I don't know if this is possible or not Diane. Perhaps if there is enough sole at the toe.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Jul 9, 2007 - 2:29 pm:
Dr.O I went and got Hanks X-rays and would appreciate any input you have. I have to do something soon with his hooves and I haven't heard anything from the 2 farriers that have dealt with this. I may have to go with my regular inexperienced farrier, so any input will be greatly appreciated!
As I said before not the greatest x-rays, but it's all I have. I think the left front got taken at an angle, I can't remember what the vet said how it happened. I think the block turned a little if I recall.
Left front
Right front
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Jul 9, 2007 - 3:54 pm:
Here are pics of his hooves, the left front always flares shortly after his trim. This is only 4 weeks after his last trim. He is growing hoof like crazy. I do have him on a hoof supplement. If you can offer any advice it would help. I THINK he needs shoes at this point??? He is always sole sore after a trim and the farrier is not aggressive, nor does he remove any sole. Hank has been off bute for a week, he is pasture sound...sore on hard ground...but not horrible, his stride will shorten quite a bit when on VERY hard ground,like pavement. I would GREATLY appreciate your ideas, of anything my regular farrier could do...which isn't much in the line of corrective shoeing...THANKS
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Monday, Jul 9, 2007 - 7:10 pm:
Oh Diane, I'm anxious to hear what Dr. O says, but from the radiographs, I'd say he really needs a farrier experienced with rotated horses and theraputic trimming/shoeing. I'm sorry you haven't heard back from your prospects! Only four weeks? Those toes are really long. I think if his breakover could be brought back to the proper alignment with the tip of the coffin bone, possibly removing some underrun heel and a natural balance shoe PROPERLY placed (perhaps with a wedge pad after the removal of some heel) the alignment would look better and you'd have a start on derotation. It's hard to tell from the radiographs how far the tip of his coffin bone is from the surface, and that's an important piece of info. The NB shoe has a wide toe with the inner rim that sort of arcs toward the frog to protect the tip of the coffin bone, but it must be placed properly--that's very important--and isn't the same as traditional shoe placement. Boy, I wish I could send you my farrier. He's sort of a guru with horses like Hank. I feel blessed to have him as do the area vets!!!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Jul 9, 2007 - 8:21 pm:
I know I feel so helpless not having a good farrier. I called the one farrier twice and left a message and asked the vet to call the NB shoer I AM trying.
From the looks of the x-rays and his hooves you would think he would be dead lame, but actually he is getting around well. When he has the boots on he is 100%, that's what makes me think shoes could help him. I NEED to do something until I get an experienced farrier, until then I have to make do with what I have.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Jul 9, 2007 - 9:39 pm:
Dr.O. as a side note I had a mare founder years ago, she was worse than Hank. She was recumbent for weeks and had pressure sores from lying down so much. I had her x-rayed and at the time, I believe she had around 18 degrees rotation, with the coffin bone almost penetrating both hooves. The farrier I had at the time never saw the x-rays. He shod her with an aluminum shoe and equithane sole pak. He kept her heel low and brought her toe back quite a bit, he did her every 6 weeks. After a few mos. her whiteline started to tighten, we kept her shod like that, she was sound and after about a year I had her x-rayed again and she had been completely de-rotated and her sole became concave again. My vet at the time was amazed and started using my farrier he was so impressed.
I am wondering if something like that would help Hank? I do THINK my farrier is capable of that.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 10, 2007 - 2:32 pm:
Hank broke one of his boots, so I went to the tack store out of state to get him another. They have a bulletin board with farrier names on it so I took 2 cards that seemed "interesting". There I am cards in hand looking at boots and who walks in but my farrier... Sigh. I got to talking to him about Hank (while slipping the cards in my pocket) and his new x-rays, he thinks he can help Hank and is willing to learn the de-rotaion process. Well I guess he knows it, just hasn't had alot of experience with it. I guess farriers have to get experience somewhere.
We are going to try the program we did on the mare mentioned above and if he responds well we will take x-rays on a regular basis. I feel better about him doing Hank now after speaking with him.
He is coming Mon. and we are going to try the routed out wide web shoe, with equi-pak. TRY to get those hooves balanced and the flares removed and see what happens. I will post pics after his shoeing and either be crying or happy....let's hope for happy
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 11, 2007 - 6:18 am:
Looking at the radiographs, I think that sounds reasonable Diane.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 11, 2007 - 6:58 am:
That pleasantly surprises me Dr.O., I thought for sure you were going to say it wouldn't be good enough. I'm starting to feel better already!
Next set of x-rays I am going to insist on better markers.
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 11, 2007 - 12:42 pm:
Diane, I'm hoping for happy for you and healthy for Hank!!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 12, 2007 - 7:10 am:
Dr.O. could you tell me what you see from these x-rays? Is his rotation severe etc. in your opinion?
Do you think Hank will ever be rideable again? Thanks.
Thanks Aileen
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Jul 16, 2007 - 6:36 am:
Dr.O. The farrier is coming today and I was wondering if we should put the equi-pak in to cover Hanks whole sole, or just in the heel area considering his thin soles?
I have been reading articles about it and would seem if too much is applied ahead of the frog it could cause pressure and make him sore.
I have also read if put on so that it is below the rim of the shoe it still will offer protection...without pressure. I'm sure you are familiar with the pour-in pads, but they are not real hard. Considering Hanks condition which way do you believe would be best? I'm thinking doing the whole foot would be best for him for protection, but I'm not sure and I really want to get this right. Thanks
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Jul 16, 2007 - 7:31 am:
Diane, these are decisions that will have to be made by examining the foot, follow your veterinarian and farriers recommendations.
Concerning your earlier questions about the radiographs there appears to be moderate rotation present and there is nothing in the radiographs to suggest permanent lameness.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Jul 16, 2007 - 8:06 am:
Thanks Dr.O. The vets recommendation is the new balance farrier that I can't get. The farrier is inexperienced, but willing so I have been reading articles like crazy! Of course weeding out radical articles. I guess I will try to copy what we did to my mare. We did fill the whole hoof.
I do know once the farrier did put too much in and it made her sore, and we ended up taking it back out. I just want to get Hank going in the right direction and not make him worse. The way his soles bruise I think a full pad is the way to go without filling it to the brim.? I guess I'll know tonight Thanks again
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Monday, Jul 16, 2007 - 3:08 pm:
Diane, something to consider is that Hank's pain is also coming from the long toe. This would be more apparent on hard ground than soft. Imagine the tips of your fingers like a horse's hoof. Now if the finger nail (the horse's toe) is long, when the tip of the finger is on the surface of your desk, as you "walk" your fingers forward, there is a pull on that long fingernail where it attaches to the nail bed. That's an over simplification, but that pull can be compared to what Hank feels as his hoof rolls onto the toe in the last phase of a step. The long toe pulls on the laminae in a lever action, just like your long fingernail. On soft ground, the toe could more easily dig into the ground and lessen the leverage. Don't get too focused on the soles and leave that toe too long. I think the majority of his discomfort could be coming from that. That's a great reason to learn to rasp the toe back yourself every few weeks, especially given the rate Hank's feet grow! Putting the pad material over the toe is going to depend on the radiographs. I think more important is getting the breakover back under the tip of the coffin bone and really backing up those toes. Good luck today--you've been in my thoughts. Julie
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Jul 16, 2007 - 3:41 pm:
Thanks Julie, Believe me I know Hanks toe must come back, and he needs to loose those flares, and get balanced. We are going to set the shoe back, the equithane may not get applied, because mother nature decided to DrOp oodles of rain on us and I am not sure if we can get Hanks soles dry enough for it.
I have decided barefoot is not for him at this time, if and when we get a tighter whiteline and thicker sole, I will consider it again. You can't say I haven't tried...it's been since Oct.
Thank you for your support I will report how his shoeing goes and if it isn't pouring rain take some pics.
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Monday, Jul 16, 2007 - 7:19 pm:
Diane, do you have a vcr? I found the tape of Pete Ramey on Clint A. show and it shows what Julie is talking about be glad to loan! Cindy
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Jul 16, 2007 - 8:17 pm:
HALLELUJA My horse is 100% sound on all terrain. The farrier did a wonderful job and Hank stood like a saint. I fed them when he was done and Hank let out this big grunt and started bucking and cantering in his little pen. He is so SOOOOO happy and so am I.
His left front is still flared a little he just couldn't get it all. He set the shoe back perfectly and routed out the toe. We applied the equithane also. Hank still has some pretty good bruising on his soles. Here are some pics it was getting dark and cloudy out, but you can see the BIG difference.
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Member:
ngossage
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Posted on Monday, Jul 16, 2007 - 8:43 pm:
Yeahoo!!!! That's great, Diane!
Cheers,
Nicole
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Monday, Jul 16, 2007 - 9:51 pm:
Diane, those look great!! Relief for you and Hank! Cindy
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Jul 16, 2007 - 10:13 pm:
Thank you all for your wonderful support, I don't think you know how much help and moral support you all have been. Dr.O. THANK YOU for those great articles it helped the farrier and I put a plan together! We aren't at the finish line yet, but hopefully over the hump! . I can't stop watching Hank walking around out there like a normal horse and seemingly pain free, that poor guy has been sore forever it seems. It will be nice to look forward to looking out the window in the morning, instead of dreading it. Now if I can get that last 100#'s off him.
THANK YOU ALL
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 17, 2007 - 6:30 am:
Dr.O. Do you think the farrier did a decent job? I was very pleased, but I am not the greatest judge of things. Thanks
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 17, 2007 - 7:40 am:
I hope, hope, hope that this is it for you and Hank, Diane and that you are crossing that finish line very soon!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 17, 2007 - 8:05 am:
Me too, bad news is I just fed and Hank is still moving GREAT, BUT there is definetly heat in his right front (the cursed hoof). I am hoping it is just from having the shoes put on...the pulse is minor. but elevated slightly. If he decides to pop an abscess now I will be sick I think.
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 17, 2007 - 9:49 am:
Dianne, hoping no abscess or other complications.. Can you give him some bute for the pain and maybe any discomfort from the shoeing process?
Please tell me the difference between the equithane and concussion pads.. ? Why one over the other ????
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 17, 2007 - 4:54 pm:
Hi Ann, his heat has dissipated a little, I am going to give him some bute tonite. He is still walking very well. They have been locked in because of torrential rains the last couple days, at least he won't be running around.
I'm not sure what you mean by concussion pads. The pour-in pads (equi-pak) is softer than leather or plastic pads, which will hopefully not put too much pressure on his already bruised soles. It still offers good protection and support, I lave the stuff, they make different kinds for different problems. The stuff I put in Hanks is also suppose to clear up thrush and or prevent it. Here is there website if you would like to see what they offer.
https://www.vettec.com/65/index.htm
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 17, 2007 - 6:39 pm:
Took Hank for a handwalk, his heat and pulse are GONE! Hopefully it was a transitional thing his break over was moved back ALOT. He walked PEFECTLY on normal ground. I decided to do a few steps on the pavement and our gravel driveway...He didn't miss a beat. I think he was even surprised it didn't hurt.
DrO. I KNOW he can't be ridden for awhile, but what is the rule of thumb? I have heard after half the hoof grows out as long as they stay sound. I know my vet would say get on and ride him at a walk if he is sound. I would rather error on the side of caution. I AM itching to get on him, but I can wait for as long as it takes . Thanks
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 18, 2007 - 8:08 am:
Standing with left REAR in the air like he broke his leg this morning. Probably an abscess. They have been locked in their paddock because of the 5in of rain we have got so far....so he didn't slip in the mud anyway. Fronts seem good so far. I'm going to call vet to examine him, just in case
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 18, 2007 - 9:21 am:
Oh no Diane, I can't believe it. Haven't had an internet connection for about a week, and then was delighted to read your good news about Hank. And now this ....
Let's hope it's just an abscess - at least they're usually dealt with speedily. GGOD LUCK!
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 18, 2007 - 5:42 pm:
The timing would make me suspicious of a "hot nail." That's a nail that is driven too close to sensitive tissue. It takes about 3 days before it becomes really painful and will present just like an abcess. Your vet will be able to determine if that's the case. I think it looks as if the farrier used four nails on each side, so even more suspicious to my mind.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 18, 2007 - 9:13 pm:
Thanks Julie, it's in his left REAR...no shoes. His fronts that have the shoes are doing WONDERFUL at the moment anyway. The vet was out this morning and found the abscess track in his LR and drained it. When I got home tonight he was much better.
The vet was very impressed how sound Hank was with his shoes. I hope he doesn't abscess out the front, but there is always that chance since he foundered.
The farrier felt the need for 4 nails...we have mud up to our ears here, 6 in. rain and still raining!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 19, 2007 - 9:09 am:
Diane, I really cannot tell much from the photos, I don't see anything that worries me but without good laterals and a-ps, it is impossible to judge.
When you say he is holding the foot up do you mean he is lame on this leg when he goes to bear weight on it? If so a hot nail is number one on the list. Use a very light tap of a hammer on the nail head and clinches to find which one is sore. Before attacking the sore foot first get the horse use to the tapping by applying to the nails on the other feet.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 19, 2007 - 4:16 pm:
NO it was in his rear foot no shoes (lol) it was an abscess, vet dug it out. Hank is very sound again! for now anyway.....Thanks
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 19, 2007 - 8:36 pm:
Never should have said he was sound again, now he is acting as tho his Right REAR is abscessing. I know his back end has been funky and maybe since his fronts are better it has become more obvious. I can see where there is a track in his rt. rear. The left rear is fine now since the vet dug it out. I have the Rt. Rear wrapped with icthamol for tonite and will call vet in the morning. I hope this is all normal for the problems he's been having. If this straightens his backend out I think he will be normal again.
Dr.O. Hank had his tetnus shot in April, I shouldn't have to boost it should I? Thanks
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Jul 20, 2007 - 9:59 am:
Rereading above, I must have been looking at a cached page that was a day old so missed that last post. For specific tetanus vaccine recommendations check out the article Diseases of Horses » Nervous System » Incoordination, Weakness, Spasticity, Tremors » Tetanus.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jul 20, 2007 - 6:56 pm:
THIS just never ENDS! Dr.O. when the vet came out to check Hanks rt. REAR there was a rubbery string going around his whiteline. The vet removed it and found the track I had seen. He dug and followed a solid black track around the outside of his hoof. When he dug the WHOLE whiteline on that half of the hoof had a black track, I am confused if this is seedy toe or an abscess. The vet went as deep as he dare,and got most of the black track out, he said if he went any deeper he would draw blood, he hit a little trickle....one needle point of it. There was no drainage otherwise. He is still very sore on it. He is weight bearing, but moves slow and limps on it. Vet said he thought it was an abscess track and too soak....which is probably the only thing I CAN'T do to Hank, and to give 1 gram bute 2X a day. Does this sound like an abscess and beings he couldn't find the "head" should I expect to see it pop out some where else?
Seedy toe isn't a SOLID black line thru the whole whiteline is it? From what I gather from your article on it, it would seem it is focal areas which I have seen before. I was going to poultice his hoof, but last nigh when I had wrapped it he was kicking out with it on, I figured he'd get over it, but this morning he kept shaking his hoof and slamming it on the ground until I took it off.
Thanks
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Friday, Jul 20, 2007 - 7:22 pm:
Diane, I have been keeping up with your posts.. and I just can't believe all that you are going thru and all that you have done.. I can't add to anything but wanted to give you my support and well wishes that THIS turns around very VERY soon..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.
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Member:
amara
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Posted on Friday, Jul 20, 2007 - 10:32 pm:
my goodness diane!it just never ends!
dont take this the wrong way, but just what did you do in a former life to deserve all this????
good luck... keeping fingers crossed that one day very very soon you will have a horse with four normal and sound feet! (and everything else!)(you certainly deserve it! (i think, unless you WERE really really bad in a former life!))
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 21, 2007 - 11:18 am:
I feel for you Diane! Compensation is not a fun thing to be dealing with! First you fix one thing, then you find you have to fix another thing!
Re: soaking, Brave won't stand for it either, even with a soaking boot. I bought some epsom salt poultice for him, I haven't had to use it yet, so I'm not sure it works, but I thought I'd put it out there in case someone has used it and it worked.
Good luck and I too hope this ends in a very happy and healthy/sound Hank!!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 21, 2007 - 11:37 am:
Thanks, I have known there was something wrong with that backend, but when all 4 feet were hurting it was hard to tell what.
I suppose the good news is he is half fixed, he is doing great with the shoes on the front (I hope I didn't just jinx myself) everytime I think he is sound something else seems to crop up. The vet said his back end has been compensating so much for the front that he wasn't surprised this is going on.
The vet removed quite a bit of sole/insensitive laminae. he said Hank looks very good with his weight loss...but more to go.
I took him for a hand walk on the grass this morning and he walked very well, he is sore only in the rear hooves on HARD ground. I left them out for their 15 mins. of grazing and Hank cantered out to the pasture. Against my better judgement I will say he seems to be on the mend AGAIN....until tomorrow anyway, I hate to get my hopes up anymore
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 21, 2007 - 1:04 pm:
As to your Friday post, Diane, it sounds like he may have foundered on the back at one time (maybe is experiencing some residual from founder now?) and there is some thrushiness inside the rim of the hoof due to the moisture you have had. I have had horses with blackened laminae where it has stretched or been damaged. I trim close to the sole, rasp it level and put Thrushbuster around the edge of the sole . . . and continue to trim hooves as needed and haven't had any lameness . . . Maybe what you have with Hank is different, but I wouldn't panic. Occasionally, I dig a bit deeper into to clean out the black, but it seems unwise to me to take out the black and leave a deep groove between the horn and the foot . . . just seems that it would cause more problems. If the black has to be dug out below the level of the sole, then I would think that the hoof should be cut back, too?
It seems that with all the tenderness Hank has with his fronts and hinds indicates that you may be dealing with some laminitis all around.
I had a mare who got chronic laminitis in her old age. This was many years ago before there was the good information available to us that we have today. Usually it would only effect her front feet, but once it got her all around. I was advised to keep her off of spring grass, only feed hay, keep her in sand, shoe her with pads, and ride her on soft ground. Those seemed to be my options at the time (20+ years ago) and were the recommended treatments offered by my vet and farrier.
There's more available to us today, but maybe Hank needs shoes on the back, too?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 21, 2007 - 2:34 pm:
Holly Yes I believe he did founder in the rears, actually the next day after his rabies shot his hinds had a bounding pulse and heat he also hoof tested sore on the backs and not the fronts...initially. The vet was fairly conservative with his digging considering all of Hanks issues. I have been putting the dry cow stuff on where the vet dug.....beings I can't soak.
I asked the vet about putting shoes on the rear for awhile, but at this time he didn't think it was a good idea just in case the abscesses weren't done.
On a good note Hank is walking better by the hour, even on the hard ground. As the vet said WE WILL get this BOY straightened out YET. At least he's optimistic. He also suggested doing Hanks fronts in 4 weeks the way his hoof is growing...for now anyway. Thanks for your input I always appreciate it
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Member:
kathleen
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 21, 2007 - 6:35 pm:
For anyone thinking about using the EquiPak for the reason Diane did, my farrier used it on a mare with laminitis in both front feet. When we turned her back out after the shoeing, she started running and bucking and kept it up for about 5 minutes. Until then she had been taking short choppy steps (for about 5-6 months). So, for her it worked.
Just FYI
Kathleen
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 21, 2007 - 6:54 pm:
Kathleen I have to agree, I have seen the equi-pak turn around many horses with founder, heel pain, and a variety of ailments over the years. The good thing about it is it seems to help build a healthier hoof wall and sole. Hanks fronts are doing great since the equipak, as you said choppy stride is gone. His rears are finally mending also I think he just came GALLOPING up for his handful of pellets.
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 21, 2007 - 8:13 pm:
Great news Diane, Hoping everything continues to improve, Happy for you. Yippee
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Member:
paul303
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 21, 2007 - 10:42 pm:
Diane: Don't forget to keep sugardine in your bag of tricks
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 22, 2007 - 6:21 am:
Lee, My tack shed is so full of medications, boots, and wraps I couldn't get in the door anymore. I did clean it up yesterday and put thing where they belong.....hoping I am done with them and can soon dust off the saddle and use it. Of course I haven't seen Hank yet this morning, he probably dreamed some other lameness up last night
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 22, 2007 - 10:22 am:
Opinions? I took a "poor" video of trying to get the horses in after their 15 min. turnout (not an easy task). Take note they are on a hillside. I think Hank looks very good, or am I kidding myself?
https://s158.photobucket.com/albums/t90/scooter_098/?action=view¤t=c4720003 .flv
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 22, 2007 - 5:16 pm:
Think he looked good and am impressed that you were not breathing hard at all! I would have been looking for the oxygen tank after chasing up hill and holding camera! Cindy
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 22, 2007 - 6:31 pm:
Cindy, reading electric meters is my job....I walk an average of 8 mi. a day (all uphill) on the town routes. Does help keep me in shape
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 22, 2007 - 8:43 pm:
That would help! The gal that reads our meter has to walk thru pasture to get to barn meter and has to feed dog biscuts to Whiskey coming and going ! Cindy
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Monday, Jul 23, 2007 - 3:51 am:
In my opinion, you're not kidding yourself! I was amazed at just how good he looked. Maybe once or twice he was slightly tentative - but what's tentative after all you've been through! Otherwise, really loose and even - congratulations (phtu phtu phtu)! May this be the breakthrough you both deserve!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Jul 23, 2007 - 6:54 am:
Thanks LL actually his tentative steps was wanting to put his head down in the grass I think. They can't go 5 steps without stopping and eating while I'm bringing them up.
When I let them out for their 15 mins of grazing last night he galloped out again, looking great.
I haven't seen him take a bad step in the fronts since his shoes and pads. Thanks
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Monday, Jul 23, 2007 - 8:00 am:
What impressed me, Diane, was that you managed to swing the lead rope, hold the camera and run uphill without bonking yourself in the head with the lead rope clip (been there, done that..!)
Seriously, I don't have a good eye for this type of thing, but I was expecting a horse that really showed some sign of all the problems he's had. That's not what I saw at all...I will continue to keep my fingers crossed for Hank.
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Monday, Jul 23, 2007 - 3:25 pm:
Completely agree with Lynn, I too saw him being a little tentative, but he looks great! Is he off bute now?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Jul 23, 2007 - 5:08 pm:
He is off bute and very frisky. I took him for a hand walk and riding that boy when he's sound is going to be a challenge I think.
Considering he was crippled not long ago I am very happy with his progress, maybe just maybe this fall I will be able to ride him again if things continue to go well. The vet said to start riding him now, but I know we are going to have a danceing, pranceing ride the first time so I want to make sure he is healed.
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Monday, Jul 23, 2007 - 6:20 pm:
Yippee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Congratulations... and phtu phtu phtu
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 24, 2007 - 3:51 am:
I second Aileen !!!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 24, 2007 - 7:09 am:
Thanks!!! I NEVER thought I'd see the day he wasn't shuffling around like an old man (horse) again.
Front hoof abscesses are still in the back of my mind for our next fun....hoping it doesn't happen, but don't they usually abscess after they founder? Dr.O.? Hate to get my hopes up then have that happen.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 24, 2007 - 10:04 am:
Founder will not prevent abscesses and if there is any seedy toe (the defects in the white line at the toe that become infected with thrush) from the rotation of the coffin bone it will promote abscesses. For more on this see the Overview of Founder article.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 24, 2007 - 5:51 pm:
I wanted to share what is going to be one of my favorite pics. My husband don't know how to run the camera...but he managed for this occasion. I know my riding clothes aren't proper but what the heck. Hank was trying to get a bite of that green grass, thus the tight rein. I rode him for about 15 mins. and he was soooo good. I felt no lameness what so ever. AND he weight taped at 952#'s tonight! He wanted to go more, but I didn't want to push it. THANKS EVERYONE
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 24, 2007 - 6:19 pm:
Woo-hoo, Diane! Congratulations! Nice to see Hank earning his keep!
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 24, 2007 - 6:53 pm:
look at all that green.. heck i would be fat too..
GREAT PHOTO..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 24, 2007 - 7:29 pm:
YEAH!!! Here's to many more rides!
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Member:
amara
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 24, 2007 - 7:41 pm:
yeah!*whoopwhoopwhoop*
bout time that horse started paying you back for all the time and effort and money you've spent on him... just kidding...you two look great together...
now teach that hubbie how to work a camera(maybe the kodak one step (point, press button..)(actually, guess that's two steps.. kind of complicated huh..?), so we can get some more pics...
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Member:
leilani
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 24, 2007 - 8:18 pm:
Great picture Diane. Best to you both. Leilani
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 25, 2007 - 1:00 am:
FANTASTIC!!!!
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Member:
annes
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 25, 2007 - 10:28 am:
Great picture Diane and Hank looks great! I am so happy for you both!! By the way, I have a PHD camera (push here dummy) - it is the only kind I can operate.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 25, 2007 - 2:01 pm:
I called the vet this morning on his private line....which has caller ID and guess how he ans the phone. NOW WHAT'S WRONG (lol) can't blame him. I told him I rode Hank and he asked how he was this morning....something I wondered also, we did do some trot on the straight line and he wanted to canter up a pretty big hill...so I let him. WELL this morning he was 100%, I think the vet was happier than me. He said to keep riding him daily, and keep the weight off him.
I think my life is back to normal
You guys are the greatest...couldn't have done it without you all pulling for us and helping!!! Dr.O. you finally get a break from my million questions!...for awhile anyway. Thanks
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 25, 2007 - 5:10 pm:
Relief and Joy for one and all !!! Cindy
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Member:
paul303
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 26, 2007 - 12:02 am:
Wowie!
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 26, 2007 - 9:23 am:
Great news!!! Lilo
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 26, 2007 - 10:55 am:
Diane, I'm so happy for you!! Hank looks great! Maybe you should keep some wraps around and pretend to keep treating one foot off and on so Hank continues to feel he's getting all that extra attention; otherwise he might re-lame himself just to keep you going!
Seriously, you're continued dedication and treatment of Hank has been inspirational, and a learning experience for us all. Good luck to you two!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 26, 2007 - 10:55 pm:
Sara I check his digital pulses morning and night, so he still thinks he's special! If I never have to wrap a hoof again it will be too soon. I rode him a little longer last night in the hayfield and again he did well. Gave him tonight off, it's too hot and humid for man or beast and the flies are horrible. they are also getting to go out in the calf eaten pasture for a few hours a day...without his muzzle. It is doing wonders for their attitude and movement, as long as the weight don't start piling on again I am hoping to let him out 24/7 in the small calf pasture soon. (what a savings on the shavings bill). Thanks for all your help.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jul 27, 2007 - 6:35 pm:
Dr.O. I do have one more question (hard to believe I know). From my understanding horses that are recovering from founder shouldn't do ridden circles. How do you determine when it is O.K.? When he turns he turns sharp and well, but I know he is still healing. With the crops in the fields yet, I don't have a lot of ground to ride and would like to just dink around in the arena occasionally. Thanks
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Friday, Jul 27, 2007 - 7:05 pm:
Hi Diane, I just wanted to say that is a great picture! Congratulations!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Jul 30, 2007 - 6:27 am:
How long a horse needs to be pasture rested after a bout of founder depends on how serious the damage to the laminae was. A mild bout with no rotation might get away with 6 weeks rest, a serious bout with documented rotation might be rested 9 months. So it really depends on your evaluation of how much damage is done and how weak the resulting foot.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Jul 30, 2007 - 7:30 am:
Dr.O. I have been riding him daily, on soft ground at a walk with a little trot. He is holding up well. He even wants to canter, but we don't. The "founder line" is grown about half way down his hoof, which you can see in the pic after his shoeing. My vet said to ride him, which I questioned as I know he is still healing. He said Hank is one of those "metabolic" horses and NEEDS the exercise to keep his weight down, and that I don't weigh all that much to make a difference. As a side note, this vet office is of the opinion that foundered/foundering horse should be kept moving. (I know better)That's why I don't quite trust the vet on this.
I only have soft ground in my small arena at this time, unless I ride on the road a ways. I don't want to take him on the hard road until he has grown a new...hopefully stronger hoof.
The circles are small, I think my arena is only 60'x80' basically a round pen.
I DON"T want to do anything to make this horse sore again. The riding is helping his weight and muscle tone and he is remaining VERY SOUND, but something in the back of my head makes me wonder if I am doing the right thing....probably your article. I am willing not to ride him, I've waited this long! I will say he hasn't felt this good in ridden work for a LONG time and his attitude has been very happy, where he use to be somewhat unwilling and grumpy. I think his thin soles have been making him sore, even before this founder and the equithane pads have relieved this.
In your opinion, from this description, should I let him rest more?(which is no problem) His founder isn't mild as you know. Thank You
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 31, 2007 - 7:57 pm:
Diane, You horse is the best answer to this question. Follow his lead. If he is happy and comfortable keep doing what you are doing. If at any time he goes a little back wards stop. You are the best judge of him as we arnt there to see him. Given you devotion I am sure you will do the right thing. If you think circles might be too much don't do it until you know he can. Anytime he is uncomfortable don't do it. if he is comfy do it. you just follow your gut on this one. I am so excited for you,
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 31, 2007 - 10:05 pm:
Thanks Katrina, I really don't trust myself on this one. He is doing VERY well and I want to keep it that way. I know you guys can't see him, but I wonder if there is a rule of thumb... for starting ridden work, or as you say let the horse tell me. I would just hate to do anything to set him back to square 1. I THINK he has been over the acute founder stage since the end of April and it has been his thin soles that were keeping him tender?
He really is starting to look good with just a little riding. I have been trying to ride him 5 days a week, working up the time I ride. Right now he is ridden (lightly) 30-45 mins a night. The neighbor just cut his hayfield so I can ride in there for a little while yet. Thanks for your all your help it is much appreciated
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 1, 2007 - 10:48 am:
Hello Diane,
With half the hoof having grown out since the last episode you may be ready to start riding again, so I would follow your veterinarians advice. Be sure any flare at the toe is rasped out.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 15, 2007 - 6:49 am:
Dr.O. Hank had his 4 week trim yesterday. When the farrier removed the shoes and equithane his bruising was gone at the toes on his soles....finally. He still has bruising in his white line, but the farrier said that is to be expected until he has grown a new hoof is that true? Does this indicate anything sinister is still going on? I walked him barefoot before he was shod again and there was a HUGE improvement. We put the wide web shoe and equipak in again and he is moving wonderfully. How long do you think we need to use the equipak? I am thinking until he has a new hoof grown out so the coffin bone remains supported. I am going to have x-rays done once the new hoof growth hits the ground....thanks
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Aug 17, 2007 - 10:15 pm:
That sounds fine but another reason for discontinuing the Equithane is the abnormal softening that can occur because of trapped moisture between the foot and the sole.
DrO
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Member:
kathleen
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Posted on Saturday, Aug 18, 2007 - 9:36 am:
DrO
Is Equithane the same as EquiPac? We have been using EquiPac for 4 shoeings and the sole has remained dry and not soft.
Kathleen
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Aug 18, 2007 - 9:55 am:
Kathleen it is the same. Hanks sole was also in better shape than before we added it, he had the normal flaky stuff, but underneath that was better sole than before the equi-pak.
I also used it on a mare years ago for a year and it didn't seem to soften her sole either. When we did x-rays after that year her sole had thickened significantly. Of course getting her hoof in better order helped that too, but the equi-pak didn't seem to deter the effort.
I am using the equi-pak CS on Hank to help keep his seedy toe under control also until we get the white line tightened.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Aug 25, 2007 - 7:04 am:
Dr.O. can thin soles and continued inflammation of the hoof "structures" lead to pedal osteitis?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 5, 2007 - 6:49 am:
Dr.O. Hanks founder line is 1/2 way down his hoof, it's more like a raised groove. The hoof above above it seems to be coming in good, but I can see it wants to start following the damaged bottom half.
How do you keep that from happening? His hoof seems to be at the critical point and I want to keep it going well. If pics would help i could get them tonight. Thanks
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 5, 2007 - 11:59 am:
Keep the toe rolled or even squared so that there is no ground pressure on the wall at the toe as the hoof turns over during motion. For more this is described in the derotation article.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 5, 2007 - 4:39 pm:
Dr.O. I read the article again and it seems that is what we are doing, the farrier is rolling the toe and setting the shoe back so when he walks there is no torque at the toe.
The one thing that confuses me is the hoof pastern angle. When looking at the radiographs above in this post does it appear Hanks is OK.? In the article where the pics are the coffin bone seems more pointed down? If his angle is OK how do you de-rotate? Thanks
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 8, 2007 - 8:12 am:
The shoe should not be set back so much as the breakover should be Diane. It is difficult to judge the hoof pastern angle from the radiographs because we do not know if the horse was standing absolutely square. If the foot is just a little out in front or back it changes the relationship of the coffin with the pastern bones remarkably.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 8, 2007 - 9:47 am:
Thanks Dr.O., I don't know why I find this all so confusing. Setting the shoe back is not a bad thing is it? I THINK his breakover is correct. He sure is landing nicely, SLIGHTLY heel first and His movement is very fluid, if that's any indication.
I said something to the vet about radiographing again when he was here to clean sheaths, he said his breakover and pastern angles looked good and due to finances it would be ok to wait until the new hoof hit the ground, which should be around Dec. I think.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Sep 10, 2007 - 10:04 am:
If the wall is well supported and the toe of the shoe not contacting the sole this might work OK. I worry a bit about where the shoe comes across the wall where it is set back and uneven forces leading to a crack. I like to place the shoe placed where I want the wall to grow to but with the flare in the front this might be defined as setting the shoe back also so you may be OK.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Sep 10, 2007 - 9:50 pm:
Thanks Dr.O. I think I understand now. Hanks hoof is weird right now the top half above the founder ridge seems to be coming in nice and tight and at a good angle. Then there is the "big" ridge and his old hoof below it looks not so good. I don't want the "new" hoof to start following the old one. Should that ridge be rasped down? It is quite remarkable. I asked the farrier last time and he said he didn't think it made a difference. The farrier is coming weds. Would a pic help? Thanks again
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 21, 2007 - 10:50 pm:
Dr.O. I came across some x-rays of a horse that were very similar to Hanks. I know the above rads are bad but something has been hitting me as "strange" since viewing them. Most rads I have seen of foundered horses show the coffin bone pointed down.....like the picture in step one of the derotation article.
Hanks coffin bone seems to just sit lower in the hoof wall with really not much if any pointing down. Does this indicate anything like sinking? I'm starting to wonder if these terrible radiographs make his hoof look way worse than it truly is ???? Can you give me any insight on this? Thanks
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Oct 22, 2007 - 8:18 am:
You really cannot tell from the above images Diane without the bottom carefully marked with something radioopaque, like a thin wire taped to the middle of the board the horse is standing on. If with well marked radiographs the bone still seems close to the ground, it may be the soles are thin.
DrO
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