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Discussion on Death of horse due to EHV 1
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Friday, Jul 13, 2007 - 9:05 pm:
I have read the articles on EHV and understand that EHV 1 infection usually results in respiratory illness that can develop into pneumonia and very occasionally, death due to infection of the nervous system.
The neighbor across the road took in three new horses at her facility. All were emaciated. A four-year old died today due to EHV myeloencephalopathy. Presently, a 30 acre pasture and gravel road separate my horses from hers. My horses have had no nose to nose contact with any of the "across the road" horses, although her boarders occasionally ride by. The mosquitos and horse flies are rampant this year with all of the uncharacteristic rainfall we've had, and the vet said that the jumbo horseflies have a traveling radius of 2 miles and can transmit the virus.
The vet is ordering Pnemabort vaccine and will have it here on Tuesday or Wednesday next week (4-5 days from now) and I am wondering, after reading the articles on the different forms of EHV and different vaccines if Pneumabort is the best vaccine to protect my horses (I have a dozen here between the ages of 30 and 3, with three of them over the age of 25.)
My horses got their vaccinations (including rhino/flu)in the fall (a lot of new horses came in at that time) and I repeated their WNV this spring.
Understanding that no vaccine is 100% effective to prevent infection of EHV 1, do you concur with the vet that Pneumabort is the best form of the EHV vaccine to use in this case? I guess, after reading about the vaccinations and that MLV has better efficacy for prevention of invection by EHV 1, what I'm asking is: Is the Pneumabort a live or killed vaccine?
Thank you.
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Friday, Jul 13, 2007 - 9:19 pm:
Dr. O,
I "googled" Pnemabort and found that it is a killed virus. My horses are healthy, to the best of my knowledge, and are at risk only due to the proximity of the recent infection. My question regarding my horses is: Is the killed virus "enough?" Another question: Would you use the live virus vaccine for the horses at the facility assuming they had nose to nose contact and may have shared grazing and water troughs? A few of the horses there are 4 years old and younger.
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Friday, Jul 13, 2007 - 11:19 pm:
Hi Holly,
I have no info to offer on your vaccine decision, but I did want to add one comment on transmission. Humans who pet or feed horses along the road (and get slimed doing so) are another vector that can be hard to control. I don't know how busy your road is, but the recent outbreak at CSU was isolated to the human factor (and these were trained humans who believed they were following protocol). So I might err on the side of imagining exposure....
Good luck!
- Elizabeth
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 14, 2007 - 12:09 am:
Thank you, Elizabeth.
I remember the hullabaloo over the Wellington, Florida, incidence of EHV, and the fear folks had of frequenting feed stores or local horse product suppliers for fear of picking up the virus and carrying it home to their own horses, and I mentioned that to the vet when I spoke to him today. He said that the EHV was very fragile outside the horse's body, and the incidence of transfer in that manner was rare. I have had no contact with the horses or people from that facility, although the facility is south of my place, and the wind often comes from the south. In the CSU incident, were humans taking it home with them to their own horses or was the virus transferred by humans from horse to horse within the veterinary facility?
Thank you for your information, Elizabeth. I come to this site for the latest info, and am hoping to make the besr decision for my horses. The faciliy owner/neighbor sent an e-mail to her boarders and neighbors, and recommended the Kansas State University site. I went through 13 pages on Google without finding that site listed (there were many more pages that I didn't even read) and when I did find the KSU vet school web page by another means, it was very difficult to navigate, so I came back to HA . . . MUCH easier to navigate and to understand.
Thanks, again.
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 14, 2007 - 12:25 am:
Hi Holly,
The CSU transfer was within the teaching hospital. They had a suspected (later confirmed) case come in and die there, and even with everyone trained in procedures, they somehow transferred it to other horses (not many) in the facility. Most of the county went under a self-imposed quarantine, since that hospital has so many contacts, and no one was sure how many horses might have carried the virus out. The outbreak was extremely contained, so the virus obviously isn't something that leaps tall buildings 
The consensus among local vets was that it could be transmitted through careless human hygiene, though not easily.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 14, 2007 - 12:13 pm:
Hello Holly,
Since you posted this in the respiratory disease section and your questions are answered in the neuro-article I wonder if you have studied the article in the neurological section on EHV-1. There is a link in the respiratory article to it and this represents our latest thinking on the subject. I know of no work that looks at the efficacy of the Pneumabort-K vaccine specifically against the neurological form of the disease, for more on the Pnuemabort-K vaccine characteristics check out the article on abortion and EHV-1. Again you will find a link in the respiratory disease article.
One thing none of this takes into account is the time it takes to do a primary series and boosters and the time it will take to establish known protection. All things considered it may be best just to booster the existing vaccine series because of the time. Of course there are those who say vaccination worsens the neurological disease but I find no evidence of this in the scientific literature and in fact the trend suggest no difference in vaccinates and non-vaccinnates with the exception of the MLV-vaccine described in the article.
It use to be we just had one article on EHV-1 disease in the respiratory section but the information became so convoluted and lengthy we split up the articles putting them in the section under its chief clinical signs then interlinked them all. But to get a complete picture of what is known about this disease all 3 articles should be read.
DrO
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 14, 2007 - 1:49 pm:
Dr. O,
I did read all three articles and the vet here is most concerned with the disease showing as repiratory disease, so I posted here, but the death was due to myeloencephalopathy. He seemed to be encouraging me to watch for the respiratory manifestations more than the neurological manifestations, because he said that EHV 1 usually shows up as respiratory disease. My question was more to do with the Pneumabort vaccine because I didn't see it mentioned by name in the articles on vaccines or in the EHV articles, but did see the part of the article about the live vaccine vs. the killed vaccine being more effective in lessening the effects of the disease.
Your answer brings up another question: How do we know when there is "known protection?" Do we assume protection if the horses don't show symptoms after a two week period?
Also, since I have some HA members visiting this week, can you allay their fears of carrying the disease back to their own horses?
Thank you, Dr. O.
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 14, 2007 - 2:06 pm:
P.S.
Yes, Dr. O., I do see where, in the abortion article, Pneumabort K is mentioned and is a killed vaccine.
You state that the live vaccine has better results with the respiratory form, which is what my vet seems to be most concerned with, but the horse died of the neurological form . . . and the vet is ordering killed vaccine . . .
so . . . in your opinion, is that the best thing?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 15, 2007 - 7:12 am:
The MLV vaccine is compared to the killed in all three articles Holly.
DrO
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 15, 2007 - 8:53 am:
Geesh! You're making me really have to work at this. Initially, I just skimmed the Abortion one because I don't have any pregnant mares. Only saw the comparison in that one article . . .
I'm so tired, Dr. O. and wanted a quick answer. I'll put on my spectacles and try again.
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 15, 2007 - 9:46 am:
Okay . . . please, at least tell me if I am interpreting this correctly.
I did see both references to the MLV vs. killed vaccine when I first read the articles, but I read the part on the respiratory EHV as saying that the MLV was more effective against the neurological form of EHV . . . and since the vet seems to be worried about the respiratory form, then I wondered if the killed vaccine was good enough for my guys. Is the reference in the respiratory article stating that the MLV is better in both cases? If so, then it would seem that Pneumabort is NOT the best choice for my horses to keep them from either the respiratory form of EHV or the neurological form.
Here in KS, it is normal, (according to our vet) to vaccinate for Rhino/Flu each year. The articles on HA state that the vaccine has limited efficacy. Would that be three months? four months? six months?
It would seem that my horses are due for another vaccine since there is a case of EHV within a 2 mile radius, and it would seem that the Rhino vaccines they got late last fall might not be effective now in July, and it seems that it would be better for them to get the live virus vaccine rather than the Pneumabort.
Are those assumptions correct?
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Member:
christel
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 15, 2007 - 10:20 am:
Oh Holly, I so feel your frustration!
I know DrO is only trying to get us all to learn to educate ourselves, and that he has spent many a long hour getting the info on here so we can. I appreciate that, but know too that there are times when time is short and you want that answer, the frustration builds as the more you read the stupider you get- especially when you get into the research articles that have words so long you cant even pronounce them much less understand what is being said.
Since you have no horses that are pregnant, why not go with the MLV? Also I remember reading somewhere, maybe here, that the rhino needs to be given every 2 months to horses that are showing or in a barn where new horses are always coming and going.
I know you must be living in fear with the death of the horse being so close to you, sending positive thoughts your way and hoping for the best.
Chris
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 15, 2007 - 11:12 am:
Thank you, Chris, for your help as well as your moral support. I have days of feeling overwhelmed here at the farm, and it's been a really rough week with . . .well, with lots of things going wrong here, mechanically, physically, and now with the EHV thing. Plus, I have company off and on, and they are a great support and physical help, but it is still "extra," if you know what I mean.
Unless you say differently, Dr. O., I may take Chris's recommendation.
You see, the vet told me he was going to order Pneumabort on Saturday, but it wouldn't be here until Tuesday or Wednesday, so that's when I started researching so I could decide if that was the best vaccine for my guys, because I know there is a lag time between when the vaccine is ordered and when it arrives, and if he has to order a different kind, then I want to get it here ASAP, because it seems that even after it is administered, there is a waiting period for it to become effective, to whatever degree, and I don't know how important the time factor is for my horses and if I should be concerned about the respiratory form or the neurological form or both. (take a breath, Holly) . . . so . . . that's it in a nutshell . . . sorta.
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 15, 2007 - 11:13 am:
If I could hug you, Chris, I would.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 15, 2007 - 5:11 pm:
I am sorry to be appear to be such a pill but it is more than you need to educate yourself, though this is an important principle too.
Often folks ask questions to which there are no firm answers or the best answer at this time can change as more research or new products become available. While I don't have time to edit my replies in these forums the articles are always kept up to date with research and experience that occurred yesterday. Because I edit the articles as new information comes out I will also go much further out on a limb with speculation (always with a explanation that this is speculation, as you see in the neurological) based on the best information currently available. And I can reflect this uncertainty , which may change tomorrow. On the other hand in the forums I try to stick with information that is written in concrete.
Holly, I want you to see why this helps you. By following this policy, when you read a recommendation on this site by me, whether in an article or a forum, it is much more likely to be correct or at least reflect the current knowledge on a subject.
DrO
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 15, 2007 - 6:13 pm:
Dr. O., what does your wife do with you when you get like this?
I'm not trusting myself, and your affirmation would be a relief at this time.
YOU used the pill word; I didn't.
Thank you for writing the articles and keeping them up to date and for your time and efforts to challenge me, although at the present time, I don't really need any more challenges, but you can't know that, so I accept your "pushing" in good faith.
Calling all HA members:
May I have your help for a consensus, please?
I called my vet and left a message that if he can get the modified live virus vaccine, then I would prefer it for my horses as it seems there is research to show that it is more effective against the respiratory and neurological forms of EHV1 . . .
Did I do the right thing? Did I interpret the information correctly? If it takes longer to the the MLV vaccine, is it still the best vaccine to give?
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 15, 2007 - 6:26 pm:
Hi Holly,
I don't think there's a slam-dunk answer to your question. Usually that means that there is some basis for calling either vaccine a right choice. Time is not especially on your side in this but (it seems to me) that probabilities pretty much are.
I will say that you remind me of me, and what *I* might need to hear would be that the horses are already well-vaccinated and well cared for. No amount of stress or analysis is going to ensure that one won't get sick (as you know), but your choice of killed or live vaccine may not be the determining factor either way.
There's a limit to how much our hard work translates into a safe future for any living thing, and you are doing more than your job for these horses. Breathe deep-- tomorrow it will be something else. It ALWAYS is with horses!
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 15, 2007 - 7:27 pm:
Holly, I'm sorry you're dealing with EHV1! How about calling a vet college in your area tomorrow morning and see what they suggest? Maybe there are too many variables from state to state to clearly consider one or the other?
Just a thought, I wish I could help you but my mind is blurry!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 15, 2007 - 8:57 pm:
Hi Holly I don't envy your situation. I think I would go with the MLV if I was concerned about the neurological form, it seems from Dr.O.'s article it helps prevent this better. I think if your horses are healthy and they did come down with the respiratory version it would be much easier to treat then the neurological form. I have seen many horses get over the respiratory form including my own. I would be more worried about the neurological form, So my vote would be the MLV vaccine unless you have horses that tend to react to shots, and take temps daily for awhile if you a real concerned. Good Luck
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Member:
hpyhaulr
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 15, 2007 - 9:52 pm:
Holly, I just remembered getting a contact from this board. It was EHV-1 that brought me to HA in the first place last winter. We came off the road because the usda was not giving us clear guidelines. As I understood it, time,travel and lack of information were the enemy, and until we knew where the other 9 horses were, I could not be out there moving infected animals around. THE state of Florida was outstanding in their reporting. I don't remember the name of the thread, but it was EHV-1 and it was very active in late November and December. I believe it was through the FLorida DOA that I got through to the head of USDA EQuine diseases . I do remember it was Christmas Eve and the poor man was with his family and took my call to his cell with the promise I would lose his phone # after I no longer needed it. It was not as hard as I expected it would be to get him. If you want to go that route, check your state DOA website, I am sure they will have a page leading you to equine R&Rs and you can start your emailing tonight which will get you results tomorrow. If you want to cover yourself, also email the FLorida DOA as we already know they are highly responsive and have no problem kicking the issue up as far as it needs to go. THey got me through to him in a matter of hours. I KNOW there were only 5 cases that came in from overseas in late Nov, and the other 9 were tracked eventually. I was never really satisfied with the SOCAL accountability nor with the COnnecticut tracking. FLorida was the only one I felt erred on the side of caution. Since EHV-1 is not new to the states, USDA does NOT test for it upon entry. THere was one 'typhoid mary' case in that November shipment of a mare who went to Kentucky after Newburgh for her breeding testing, she came up positive for EHV-1 but never presented symptomatically. THAT REALLY concerned me. How many are carriers and just run all over the country infecting others unknown to their owners or anyone else for that matter? I know that is no help to you in terms of vaccinations, but perhaps you will feel more confident if you get it from the USDA. Good luck.
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 15, 2007 - 11:58 pm:
Thank you for your feedback, guys. It looks like the MLV vaccine has to be done twice in 4 weeks . . . This is going to be an extra expense that I didn't plan on . . . Wish I only had one horse at times like this.
I will probably hear from the vet tomorrow in response to my message to him. If he insists on the Pneumabort, then I'll go along with it since it is already on the way, but if he agrees that the live vaccine is better or suitable for my assorted equines, then I'll see if I can get it from Valley Vet which is here in KS, and it will arrive by UPS the next day.
I'm really not worried that my guys will get sick, but I don't WANT them to get sick . . . because if they do, it will be a long haul with a dozen horses to doctor and monitor alone . . . and I only have 5 stalls . . . and the temps are supposed to be 100 by the end of the week . . . so it will just be more work if one or more of them becomes ill.
Thank you, again.
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Member:
gwen
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Posted on Monday, Jul 16, 2007 - 9:08 am:
Thinking good thoughts for ya'...
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Monday, Jul 16, 2007 - 5:53 pm:
I feel for you Holly, and hope everything thing works out.
leslie
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Monday, Jul 16, 2007 - 6:05 pm:
Thank you, leslie and Gwen.
The vet's assistant just called and said that they can only find one MLV vaccine by Pfizer, and will order it this afternoon. They will call when it arrives.
She didn't sound familiar with it. I hope I'm doing the best thing for the horses.
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Monday, Jul 16, 2007 - 9:55 pm:
Holly,
I can sense how worried you are. Here is hoping and praying that all will work out for the best.
Best of luck to you and all the horses,
Lilo
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 17, 2007 - 2:12 am:
Thanks, Lilo. I actually haven't thought too much about it recently with all the other activity and responsibilities around here. My hope is that my horses won't have to suffer through any of the symptoms of EHV. The vaccine should be here within the next couple of days. I've been keeping the horses close to the barn and as fly free as possible, although the mosquitos are just terrible. I mowed all the pastures, so that should help keep the mosquitos away, too, and with the 94 degrees we've been having and the warm wind, the ground is becoming hard again and not very mosquito-friendly. The mosquitos have been so bad that several of the horses were covered from jowls to flanks with hundreds of small hives. The last couple of nights the mosquitos haven't been quite as thick. I did learn from a neighbor who keeps mules next door to the boarding facility that the sick horse and his two emaciated buddies were kept across the fence from the facility owner's elderly horse who has severe arthritis. Hopefully, the older horse is up-to-date and recently vaccinated. I guess we'll know more about the contagiousness in this case of
EHV within a couple of weeks.
It really brings home the importance of quarantining new horses that come onto the property.
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Member:
christel
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 17, 2007 - 9:56 am:
Holly, glad you have made a 'decision'- I too am hoping it is the best one.
Now Im a little confused- if you have given Rhino in the past, why would you have to boost it by giving another in 4 weeks? Guess I need to reread the info you have been studying the last few days- -being lazy here, letting you read and tell me-lol- also was I correct in thinking Rhino vaccines are only good for 2 months? That is ingrained in my mind, but cant tell ya why- details I am not good at remembering. Ummm, I may have just answered my own question- if it has been longer than 2 months since last vaccine, then you need to boost?
Still sending those positive thoughts your way.
Chris
DrO- I have this vision of you standing at the chalk board with a pointer stick saying- now class the answer to this question is in what you just read- go back and reread it please- Gotta love ya, I so appreciate you and this site!!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 18, 2007 - 9:57 am:
Chris,
Having to go through the primary series when you switch vaccines is a little different issue. Different vaccines MAY contain different antigens of a particular disease and so require a whole new primary series. Rarely it has been studied if the primary series carries over to another vaccine and where this has been tested we put it in the disease article under the prevention section. Concerning the length of protection you should not think of it in absolute terms: it does not turn off after 2 months it just starts waning. What we know about efficacy and revaccination schedules is in both the disease article and the vaccine schedule. Recently it has been supposed that very frequent vaccination may lessen the efficacy, sort of by tiring out the immune system, and like so much with vaccine recommendations there is little in the way of firm evidence for this.
Thanks for the kudos, Holly's reaction to my posts had me down a bit but did not know how better to answer her questions other than reprinting what was already printed in the articles and the specific recommendation already made above.
DrO
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 18, 2007 - 12:47 pm:
Dr. O.,
If you could have heard me saying) whay I said, I don't think you would feel discouraged. I was bantering and smiling in frustration . . . not slamming you, okay? Honest.
I wanted an easy answer and reassurance . . . and didn't feel I had the time, frame of mind, or energy to get what I needed from the articles at this time. Too much piling up on my at once right now.
In the future, I will trust that the articles have the answers I need about treatment and vaccines and will try to save any questions for other issues that aren't covered in the articles.
Please be assured that I remain a fan and faithful member, and I direct people to the site on a regular basis . . . in fact, most every time I am discussing any horse-related issue, I mention what I have learned and the people I have met through The Horseman's Advisor.
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 18, 2007 - 12:50 pm:
Sorry . . . I'm all thumbs when it comes to using the font changes on the tool bar . . . didn't mean to have it all in italics.
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Member:
christel
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 19, 2007 - 9:54 am:
ok, got it DrO- thank you again, this is another one of those times I wonder- now why didn't I think of that. I was actually thinking along those lines, but it had yet to gel in my feeble mind.
Holly- how is it going? Have the vaccines arrived? Positive thoughts still coming your way.
Chris
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 19, 2007 - 10:07 am:
Thanks, Chris.
Haven't heard from the vet, yet. He ordered from his own medical supply . . . maybe he'll call today.
I bet my horses didn't get the MLV in their 5-way shots in the fall, so, according to the Valley Vet Catalog, the vaccines need to be given in another 4 weeks.
The heat changed yesterday into a very dry heat . . . much more bearable for me and the horses, and I noticed a great reduction in the mosquito and fly population with the humidity change. Hope it stays this way for awhile.
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 21, 2007 - 1:46 pm:
On Thursday I saw the owner of the neighboring facility when I was shopping after work. She said that the vet had tried to DrOp off my vaccines that morning because he had to come out this way for an emergency.
I called the vet . . . didn't get any answer, so called him yesterday, Friday, and found out that the emergency was that the woman's elderly gelding had died. I was told that the gelding was across the fence from the horse that died of EHV. I asked the vet if the old gelding had died of EHV and his answer was that it was hard to say. The old gelding had a history of bad arthritis and was known for going down and getting cast for the past few years.
I got to thinking about it afterwards and it seems that it is a pretty important point. Do vets have to keep records of deaths when there has been a contagious disease on someone's property?
It may not make any difference to whether my horses are safe or not, but I guess I feel more threatened now if there have been two deaths due to EHV on the property across the road.
Though we have had no contact with any of those horses or any of the people there, I confess to being more worried now. This morning as I was cleaning stalls and preparing to bring the horses inside from the heat, Mark's gray QH mare was coughing and snorting. Didn't notice any discharge . . . just dampness . . . and her appetite is good. Maybe it was just dust. My sister said she heard one of the horses coughing last night, though, too, and it was one of the mares.
Vaccines won't be here now until Tuesday afternoon but will take awhile to become effective to whatever capacity in the indiviual horses.
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Member:
christel
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 21, 2007 - 3:07 pm:
Holly, he's got the vaccines but you cant get them till Tuesday?!! He knows how concerned you are, doesn't he? Why the heck did he not make a call to you before now, or even before he tried to just DrOp them by your house?
How frustrating- hang in there girl, when it rains, it pours- here's hoping for that dry spell to happen SOON!
Chris
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 21, 2007 - 3:52 pm:
Thanks, Chris.
He has my cell # and has called it before, but not this time. I guess he came out to euthanize the old gelding and just tried to stop by without calling, even though the vet assistant told me they'd give me a call when the vaccines came in. Apparently, he isn't too worried about the spread to my place. Not sure.
I have the A/C on the past couple of weeks, so don't hear the horses at night like I used to. I just mowed some fields and am going to trim a couple of horses in the barn, so I'll be close enough to them to hear if any of them are coughing or sniffling. Since last winter, my herd has been a closed herd, so I am hoping that we will be okay. I think my most "at risk" guys are my old ones, but they have all been vaccinated before and came from different riding programs and/or ranches, so hopefully won't contract the disease. Though old, they act healthy and are eating like horses.
We shall see.
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Member:
imogen
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 22, 2007 - 4:01 am:
Holly, perhaps he did not want to visit your place directly after visiting your neighbour in order to minimise any risk of transferring an infection?
Best wishes
Imogen
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 22, 2007 - 6:43 am:
Holly, could you not pick the vaccines up yourself from the vet's office? I'm sure the sooner you can get them INSIDE your horses, the better you will feel.
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Member:
corinne
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 22, 2007 - 10:00 am:
Holly....if I don't have a lesson on Wed, after I head to the other barn, I can swing by to help with chores. I will call your cell. If you have the vaccines I can help administer them as well. At this point, I'm with LL...could you get them yourself and just give them? I know you are extremely worried, although with a closed herd I am sure they are all fine and a cough every now and then was probably coincidental.
I will talk to you soon.
Corinne
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 22, 2007 - 11:39 am:
Corinne,
I am glad to hear you offer to help Holly give them. Really, it's not that hard...but if a horse senses you are worried,they get worried. Wish we could have got 'em done when we were all there.
Holly,
Any news on the neighbors horse cause of death? That hay could be the cause of coughing, but I would be worried too. Of course we all know that most of what we worry about doesn't come to pass.
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 22, 2007 - 1:02 pm:
Only have a second, but want to respond:
Thank you, Corinne. I will be in touch.
As for the vaccines, I have never been comfortable sticking needles into living flesh, but have done it before on many occasions with Banamine for colic and for a few vaccines. I prefer to have a vet there, though. Maybe that's silly as I know many people do vaccines themselves. I just feel better with an expert there. I am always afraid that if I have a jumpy horse that I'll stick the needle into a vein or something. Heck, I've seen vets do it before, with one instance turning into a significant problem.
When I told the vet I'd like him to do them, I thought he'd say, "Okay, I'll get there later today," or "How 'bout tomorrow morning." When he said he couldn't do it until Tuesday, I said that maybe it would be better if I came and got them, but he said, no, that he'd do it on Tuesday.
So . . . I'm taking my cues from him at this point. Maybe it isn't as big a deal as I'm imagining it to be. The 4-year old horse and his two companions were in a very bad way, totally emaciated with a questionable vaccine history. The neighbor to the other side of the facility says he's not that concerned since his mules are all healthy and haven't had any contact with the horses at the facility. He won't be able to get his vaccines done until after Tuesday, though I offered to do them for him. He want's to be present with the vet since one of his mules is a real handful.
Mark's gray mare seems fine with a good appetite and as $#tchy as ever . . . didn't hear her cough anymore, so could just be that good ole Kansas dust.
Will ask the vet on Tuesday if there is any way he could tell the cause of death of the old gelding. Not sure if there are any reliable tests since I'm sure he has been vaccinated against Rhino almost all of his life.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 22, 2007 - 6:01 pm:
To help you decide if your horses have a respiratory infection you should take their temperature Holly. Concerning the records, the only records required by law would be for reportable diseases of which EHV is not one.
DrO
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 22, 2007 - 6:59 pm:
Thank you, Dr. I will certainly take temps if I have any other suspicions. Unlike giving injections, taking temps is something I can do without girding my loins.
How is a reportable disease determined to be reportable? Maybe EHV isn't as serious (maybe not the correct word) as some other equine diseases?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Jul 23, 2007 - 7:11 am:
What is reportable in your area is determined by Federal Dept of Agriculture and your states Ag Dept. So I should back up with whether this is reportable, there may be states enacting EHV-1 reporting. I would consider this problematic since it is believed all horses are exposed to this early in their life. There have been tests that identify the type that is likely to induce neurological disease, perhaps if that form is used for reporting...
Looking at three diseases that are reportable is illustrative of some of the common reasons for a horse disease to become reportable:
1) Rabies
2) Vesicular Stomatitis and Foot and Mouth Disease
3) Equine Infectious Anemia
Each would be considered reportable for different reasons. Human health concerns drives Rabies, food animal health drives VS because of its similarity to the far more severe Foot and Mouth Disease, and concern for equine health is what drives EIA classification and is one of the least common reasons for a disease to become reportable. You can find out more about these diseases and EHV1/4 characteristics referred to above in each of the articles.
DrO
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Monday, Jul 23, 2007 - 10:02 am:
Much thanks.
I will ask the doctor if he took any tests and if not, I will ask him to explain his resoning . . . to ascertain his opinion of the urgency of this EHV incidence. It would seem that after the abortion tragedies in KY a few years back that the vets there would need to report EHV, and as you say, it probably varies from region to region.
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 24, 2007 - 6:14 pm:
Vet just vaccinated all 12 horses. Need to watch for reactions. Need to boost in 4 weeks. Said the older horses may not always need a boost, but considering the proximity of the known threat, it might not be a bad idea . . . so, at $16 per vaccine times 12 horses . . . times 2 . . . and add in the vet services . . . ho-hum . . . it's an expense that I certainly wasn't anticipating, especially since I try to keep up with my vaccines and worming throughout the year.
The elderly, arthritic horse who died a week after the 4-year old horse died wasn't necropsied . . . Apparently, the only way to have discovered if he died of EHV would have been to do a spinal tap. None of the blood tests are conclusive. For all we know, he was the carrier . . . or maybe he just contracted it from another horse because his immune system finally succumbed.
I didn't understand the following from the reading of the articles, so maybe I just needed to see someone's lips moving and hear the words and hear the answers to my questions during a conversation, but from what I understand, the emaciated 4-year old horse may not have been the carrier. Maybe there is another horse on the facility property that is a latent carrier, and the 4-year old, whose system was compromised, may have contracted the disease from another horse that may still be on the property and may continue there for many more years . . . maybe shedding the virus . . . maybe not. How do horses first get the virus?? It is unknown, according to the vet.
The vet said that the problems with the EHV vaccine can be likened to the problems with the human flu vaccines. The virus mutates and we don't even know if we KNOW all the different kinds of herpes virus there may be . . . and when we vaccinate against one kind, we may not be protecting against many other forms of the virus.
He said that Herpes virus isn't reportable, and we don't have a dependable way to test for it, and it just occurs naturally in the horse population and we don't know how it is contracted and why some horses carry it, some horses carry it AND contract it . . . and some horses only contract it.
He said 2-4 weeks should be time enough to tell if there is an "epidemic." He said that the neruological form can appear by itself yet he is most concerned that I watch for any respiratory disease which MAY precede the symptoms of the neruological form but didn't in the case of the 4-year old who died.
So . . . it's a mystery . . . and there is a lot more that we DON'T know when compared to what we DO know . . . and even what we think we DO know may not be what we think it is as more information comes to light over time.
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 24, 2007 - 7:35 pm:
Holly, I hope now that your horses are vaccinated, you can rest easy, at least just a bit. I know that I would be very worried if in a similar situation. I'll keep my fingers crossed that your horses continue to be fine and that this episode passes with no more illness among your neighbors horses.
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 24, 2007 - 9:19 pm:
yay!!! glad everyone got their vaccinations.
lol- Holly, that last paragraph you wrote says it all... about anything and everything.
Leslie
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 24, 2007 - 11:36 pm:
Good Holly...I hope your herd stays healthy!
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 25, 2007 - 1:24 am:
Hi Holly. What a worrying situation - I really feel for you. At least they'e all vaccinated now; that must be a huge relief.
You've done everything you can, so try not to stress too much, although I know that's pretty impossible (and I'm the first to have sleepless nights over the slightest problem with my horse).
Good luck and take care of yourself.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 26, 2007 - 7:17 am:
Holly,
I disagree with several points in your last post. It is not true we don't know how horses contract EHV1/4 and you will find my thoughts on the subject in the article associate with this discussion.
Also the problems with EHV vaccination is not documented as a problem with mutation, which is one of the problems with influenza. Although mutation does appear to account for the recent more aggressive neurological form of EHV-1, poor response to vaccination is a chronic problem with EHV vaccination even where mutation has not been documented. What is documented is the problem with getting the right type of immunity with current injectable vaccinations. It is difficult to stimulate the "best type of immunity" for diseases contracted through the respiratory system with a intramuscular injection. Influenza also suffers this problem and it is believed the reason for the better efficacy of the intranasal flu vaccine is that it stimulates this "first defense for the respiratory immune system" a bit better.
DrO
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 26, 2007 - 8:41 am:
Maybe I should just say that "I" don't know how horses contract EHV.
A friend in CO has two horses on her property. The mustang developed EHV symptoms and was very sick with the disease. The Arabian was never ill. When I told her that I was having to vaccinate my "herd" against EHV because of the insect vector problem within a 2-mile radius, she said that she was told that horses don't contract EHV that way, and she sent me an article from THE HORSE. I asked my vet, and he said, "We don't know. We assume that since it's a blood virus, that it can be passed by insect, but we have no proof," and I likened it to the reassurances about AIDS and how we've been told that people don't get AIDS from insect bites. I believe that the only way we'd know that is if we lock up an unexposed, healthy human in a room with infected mosquitos and then keep him/her there for 7 years and wait to see if he/she develops the disease. The vet said it was the same with EHV.
From the discussion with my vet, I got the feeling that we can vaccinate against the threat of EHV but that it is in the horse population and we don't know how it got there and it can pop out at any time whether we've vaccinated or not . . . and that the carriers of the disease may not be identified unless we go around and get spinal taps of every horse, and since it's not usually a fatal disease, there is no cause to do that and that's why it's not reportable.
Please believe me, Dr. O., that I'm not trying to promote incorrect information, but was just sharing what I heard or think I heard from my vet.
I just want to know what is the best thing I can do for my horses, and from the info here and from my vet and other veteran owners of horses with the disease, it seems that the best thing I can do for my horses is vaccinate them with the MLV vaccine along with the other regimen of recommended vaccines, worm them regularly, and feed and water them so that they can be as healthy as possible . . . and leave the hows and whys to the veterinarians and researchers.
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 26, 2007 - 9:28 am:
Dr. O. (or any of you biologist/physiologist/medical people),
You say that intranasal seems to have a better effect against influenza as it stimulates the first defense in the respiratory system better than an intramuscular vaccine. Would a vaccine to the spinal cord work better against the neurologic form of EHV or other neruologic diseases? Why does EHV effect the hind end and spinal cord first and work its way forward? If horses can get it from nose to nose contact, (and the article in THE HORSE -- said that besides water buckets and feed buckets being exclusive to each horse, that even manure forks and boots worn by workers should be separate when dealing with new or sick horses in the barn) (assuming the DO get it that way) then why doesn't the neruologic form effect the front end first?
Is it just the white blood cells that are doing the fighting against the disease, and if so, an intramuscular vaccine would get into the blood stream and stimulate the white blood cells, right? And they move all around the body at a pretty good clip, I'd think, especially if the horse is active.
You don't have to answer. I really don't know if I could understand the answer anyway, but it's just something I was thinking about after your last post and when I was talking to the vet.
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Member:
bodie
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 26, 2007 - 10:40 am:
Holly,
I’ll try to help with some of your questions about immunity. The immune system produces different types of antibodies. There is only one of these antibodies that can cross mucosal surfaces (found in the nasal passages, GI tract – those areas that have contact with the outside world). This antibody would be the most effective to stop an attack from a respiratory pathogen since it would be the first to see it. The problem with intramuscular vaccines is that they stimulate the entire immune system, so different types of antibodies are produced, not just the ones that can cross the mucosal surfaces. After being produced within the body, the mucosal antibodies must then migrate to the mucosal surfaces and go across to be there for the arrival of the pathogen. Intranasal vaccines (influenza in horses, Bordetella in dogs) stimulate antibody-producing cells directly in the mucosal surfaces and thus there is a better supply of the antibodies in the location needed that can be the first line of defense.
Vaccines directly to the spinal cord wouldn’t be that effective (along with the risk of doing a spinal injection) because there aren’t the cells within the spinal cord that could produce antibodies. The spinal cord must rely on antibodies produced within the rest of the body for its defense.
Interesting about the neurologic form of EHV affecting the hind end first. The two cases I’ve seen were also first seen in the hind end. Maybe Dr. O has some thoughts on this. I wonder if it is more that the impact on the hind end is easier to see first.
Julie
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 26, 2007 - 12:01 pm:
Thank you, Julie, you veterinary-type person you,
So . . . I always think of white blood cells as being the warriors against infection. Are antibodies the same things? Are they particular types of white blood cells? Modified white blood cells? Different than white blood cells?
Are white blood cells the same as anti-body producing cells?
(Now you know why I didn't go into the medical field.)
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 26, 2007 - 12:09 pm:
Though insect transmission might be possible it does not seem likely this is do to transmission through blood borne means. It is always possible to suppose the fly could act as a "fomite". This would be the case where a fly steps in a pile of snot from an infected horse and then flies to another horses environment and contaminates a surface, like a water bucket, that the horses respiratory mucosa then comes into contact with as he drinks. However herpes virus's are not that sturdy and we do not believe it survives for a long period outside the horse. So unless the horses are pretty close this does not seem a likely source of infection.
The reason the back end is effected first has more to do with anatomy than the virus. The nerves to the back of the horse are much longer so it is more likely that they will be hit. I also remember that there is something about the arrangement of the spinal tracts in the neck that make the tracts to the hind end more sensitive to swelling and pressure.
DrO
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Member:
bodie
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Posted on Friday, Jul 27, 2007 - 11:01 pm:
Holly,
You are definitely correct in saying white blood cells are the warriors against infection. Antibodies are the substance produced by certain white blood cells. All white blood cells don't produce antibodies, but all white blood cells are involved in immunity in some way. The antibodies are produced for each pathogen that our body sees, either through vaccines or natural methods. Antibodies then help in the attack when that pathogen invades the body again. They help identify the pathogen and present it to other cells that can help get rid of it. Both antibodies and the other white blood cells involved are key in the defense against infection.
Let me know if you want any more info. We could turn you into a medical person yet.....
Julie
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 28, 2007 - 10:10 am:
Julie, thank you so much for your explanation. It is clear to me, but I know I need to reread it a few times before I'd feel comfortable explaining it to anyonw else.
I never knew that about white blood cells and anitbodies. I thought all the white blood cells were the same.
Ummmm . . . don't think I want to be a medical person . . . not at this stage of the game, but I do believe that learning never ends, and thank you for helping me learn.
Have a good day.
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 14, 2007 - 1:21 pm:
Update:
My 26-year old, half-draft, Tucker, was down this a.m. when I went out to the barn before 8. He is never down when humans are around, especially if he thinks he's gonna have food.
Discharge from his nose . . . both nostrils . . . clear with a bit of creamy white. Got him up and tied him inside the barn. Called the vet.
Temp: 102.5
Not really interested in food or water. Labored breathing as I led him. Usually he steps out nicely as drafts tend to do . . . Very sluggish in his movement.
Last night as he ate his grain, I thought his hind legs looked a bit swollen above the fetlocks and I felt of his legs. He seemed a little ouchy, but I wasn't sure if it was ouchiness or him just thinking I wanted him to pick up his legs. Since he had eaten his grain, I figured I'd just keep a watch on his legs, and I put him back in the pasture with some hay . . . but he completely ignored the hay and just stood looking at me over the gate, even though his girlfriend was chomping away on it. I figured he was full enough of his Senior grain and might be holding out for real grass since I had let him graze the lawn for an hour the day before.
Back to this morning: Took him out of the barn and away from the other horses. Put a screw eye into the truck of the big Silver Maple (Sorry, Tree, . . . it's for a good cause.) and hung a clean water bucket. Put some fresh Bermuda hay at the base of the tree. Put a pan of soaked Senior feed next to the hay. He took a bite, but wasn't really interested.
Vet came and gave him intravenous banamine to bring the fever down. Five seconds later, no kidding, Tucker took a few bites of feed. "Wow!!! That stuff works FAST," I marveled.
"Yes, it DOES work fast . .. faster than intramuscular," said the vet, "but not THAT fast."
Either way, Tucker seemed to show interest in the food . . . Not ravenous, but at least he was trying.
He and the young Paint filly I have are kept in a small pasture with a west-facing shed attached to the back of the barn. During the day, there just isn't shade for them unless they go all the way to the back of the shed which is like an oven, cut off from any breeze that is usually blowing (Usually from the south east in the summer).
Tucker has been standing over the water trough most days in the hottest part of the day . . . right in the sun. For the past two days, I have taken him into the barn and tied him in the aisle for a couple of hours just to give him some shade . . . but then I have to stay with him. The heat has been in the 100s the past few days, and the next few days (until Saturday) are supposed to continue that way.
I am supposed to give Tucker 15cc of intramuscular Banamine twice a day for the next 2-3 days . . . Vet thinks he is in the early stages of a viral disease . . . Could be West Nile . . . Could be EHV. Can't test for EHV since all the horses have had the vaccine in the past 3 weeks. The other 11 horses got their second dose of the vaccine today. We are going to hold off on Tucker's until he is recovered . . . maybe 2-3 weeks.
He's happy to be under the tree in the shade and with the breeze. I know he's been stressed by the recent heat and he IS 26 years old, although in great condition and good health.
The horses at the other facility have been grazing the 30 acres across the road for the past week or more. My horses have had absolutely NO contact with any of her horses. There are an unusual amount of horseflies (HUGE, HUGE horseflies) around here, though . . . and while I haven't read that the flies can be transmitters (the EQUUS article didn't mention it) maybe they can? Would be a great research project to capture horseflies in the vacinity of a facility with known EHV infection and see if they are carrying the virus.
Don't know if this is EHV, but may be . . .
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 14, 2007 - 1:36 pm:
I hope that whatever is ailing Tucker is just a mild summer cold or something completely not serious and very treatable.
I will keep my fingers crossed for him, Holly.
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Member:
christel
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 14, 2007 - 1:50 pm:
Was wondering yesterday how you were faring with the EHV.
Keeping fingers crossed- hoping its neither EHV or WN. Are you hearing of WN cases in your area?
Still hot here too-
Thanks for updating,
Chris
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Member:
shirl
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 14, 2007 - 2:40 pm:
Holly,
No, No, No - you don't need anything more to deal with. Prayers are on their way along with hugs and thoughts.
Shirl
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 14, 2007 - 3:35 pm:
Thinking of you and Tucker, Holly. Hoping that this is simply a cold Tucker has. I was so hoping you wouldn't have to deal with this!
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 14, 2007 - 4:35 pm:
Aww Holly, (((xxxx)))) So sorry to hear of Tuckers ailment.
Be kind to yourself while you are handling this extra work, get takeout, if I was close I'd just come and make you a nice soup.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 14, 2007 - 4:38 pm:
Good luck, Holly. Hope this turns out to be a minor problem and that Tucker will soon be fine.
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 14, 2007 - 5:20 pm:
Thank you, all. It will have to be PROGRESSO Chicken Noodle tonight, Lori.
Don't you just hate it when horses are sick? Especially if it's 102 degrees outside. I'd really like to bring him into the air-conditioning and put him on the sofa with a rerun of Mister Ed on TV.
I've been outdoors with him a lot today. Also brought the Paint mare outside under the Maple. (Two water buckets are hanging on the trunk of the tree, now.)
Tucker hasn't passed any manure all day . . . hmmmm, so that's a concern. He did, finally finish the soaked feed, nibbled on some hay, peed on it, the moseyed off to graze under the Sycamore. He seems to be keeping a close eye on me. He has had water from the buckets on three occasions. He and his girlfriend are standing and dozing under the Maple right now, catching the southwest breeze (hot). I actually fell asleep for awhile sitting at the picnic table under the same tree . . .
No more discharge from his nose, but his breathing does sound more labored than normal.
I hope it's just a summer cold, too. I normally would think that, but with the two horse deaths so close in time and proximity, I'm more concerned than usual. Hope his fever will stay down and that he will continue to eat . . . but I'd like to see some manure pretty soon.
Thanks, again.
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 14, 2007 - 6:26 pm:
So sorry to hear about Tucker, Holly. And the heat sounds so awful. Like everyone else, I am hoping he just caught a cold and will feel better soon. I'll bet he would like those Mr. Ed shows ...
Lilo
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Member:
gwen
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 14, 2007 - 6:30 pm:
Oh, Holly. I hope it is nothing but a cold. 
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Member:
ngossage
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 14, 2007 - 7:46 pm:
Holly, hope Tucker's feeling better soon.
Nicole
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Member:
mitma
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 14, 2007 - 9:16 pm:
Holly,
You are obviously a REMARKABLE person!!! I just finished reading through your entire thread on EHV (somehow, I missed it when you posted initially)... Let me just say I am wishing you and your horses all the best and hope this is just a "minor" summer cold that Tucker is experiencing!!! I mean, you really deserve a break... reading your thread has reminded me that I have little to complain about. And, I really appreciate all your comments in my many threads! Good Luck!
Martha
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 14, 2007 - 9:37 pm:
Holly I hope Tucker is better soon. My neighbor had a horse get something very similar this weekend. He went off his feed, just nibbled, poop and pee out put went way down, his hind legs stocked up some. and he was running a fever of 103. Like my horses they go no where. She had the vet out and he said to give banamine to keep the fever down and make sure he stayed hydrated. He thought it was heat related, it has been in the 90's here and the humidity has been oppressive. My horses are drenched all day long and they have a fan in their lean-to. The neighbor said her horse was just starting to get back to normal today....he also got a little diahrea. The vet told her he has been seeing alot of this due to the heat. I hope it is as simple as this for you. Maybe a cold hosing a couple times a day would help him stay cool. Good luck.
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 14, 2007 - 10:24 pm:
Oh, Diane . . . thank you, thank you, thank you . . . I hope you are right. I just went out to give him his 15cc of Banamine . . . offered him one scoop of soaked Senior feed, but he said, "No, thank you." I took his temp (have a mercury thermometer) and it is 101.6 . . . I'm not sure of his baseline temp, but this is still higher than normal. When I left him in the paddock, he was nosing some hay, but not eating. There was some manure on the thermometer, but I can't see that he has DrOpped a pile where he was standing by the water trough. I will keep him in the shade again tomorrow. May have to just go purchase a couple more metal panel stalls to put under the tree for those two horses. Wasn't planning on that expense right now. Today I said to the vet, "Tell me again why I'm spending all this money on vaccines." The vaccinations alone are over 600 dollars . . . Yikes! . . . and there are no guarantees that they will be effective.(Where's the bawling icon when I need it?)
So, thank you, Diane, for the hopeful post. We haven't had the humidity . . . my horses hardly sweat at all, but it really is like a convection oven during the middle of the day.
Thank you, Martha, for your kind words, and each one of you for your kind thoughts and best wishes.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 14, 2007 - 10:41 pm:
Holly, the neighbors horses fever would come down with the banamine, then slowly climb again, it hung around 101 for a few days....she gave the banamine every 12 hrs. for 3 days before it stayed normal....the chow hound wouldn't eat his grain, or even graze grass. I think he was drinking ok. She has 2 other horses and they have been fine. I took her up some alfalfa cubes to soak and he did eat some of that when he wouldn't eat anything else much. Her horse started acting like that Fri. so it took him 5 days to start acting semi-normal. I do hope it is that simple for you
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Member:
leilani
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 14, 2007 - 10:45 pm:
Tucker, you just hang in there. With our thoughts,
Leilani, Mele and Anuhea
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 15, 2007 - 12:25 am:
Holly, I hope you are in bed by now and getting some much needed sleep. I also hope Tucker is doing better tomorrow. We had that hot spell a few weeks ago with temps around 100, which is really hot for here. My guys did o.k., but were in the barn with fans on during the day. My neighbors QH's were a bit DrOopy and a couple of them off their feed. They just stood around looking miserable. So, let's hope it's the weather.
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Member:
paul303
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 15, 2007 - 1:14 am:
Oooh, Hol, man oh man. Any chance at all that the heat could be too much for him? Maybe a cool hosing on his legs would work well with the banamine.......then, again, perhaps it's YOU who should take the banamine and cool hosing
waiting for your update
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Member:
imogen
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 15, 2007 - 2:42 am:
Holly, you know the horse best and you will nurse him brilliantly. You can only do your best, it's not all within your control, but try to give yourself some rest or you'll be no use to him...
Lots of love
Imogen
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Member:
paardex
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 15, 2007 - 3:40 am:
Holly I hope that by this time Tucker feels a bit better and you have had some sleep. Sick horses always wear you down, you feel so helpless with just wait and see don't you?
Wish I could send our rain and cold your way.[though they have been giving lots of sick horses too]
I keep my fingers crossed for you two.
Jos
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 15, 2007 - 7:51 am:
I would take heart in the low grade fever, less than 103. In the case of EHV-1 neurological disease the severity of the fever early in the course correlated well with the severity of the problem with the nervous system. A high fever, greater than 104.5) did not frequently lead to neurological problems but those who did get neuro problems had high fevers.
DrO
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Member:
mysi
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 15, 2007 - 8:44 am:
Holly, I just wanted to send my best wishes to you.
I live in Wellington, FL where we had the fiasco with this virus not to long ago. We were under quarantine for weeks and every sign of fever, or any relating symptom and we were in a panic. The precautions taken were so extreme, but I guess it helped stop the spread. We couldn't turn our horses out, they bleached down cars before they entered farms, you basically had to be decontaminated before going into and when leaving any farm, feed store or vet's office. It was crazy.
During all of this there were so many colds and other minor illnesses with simular symptoms that made owners panic but were not the virus and the owners were very relieved. I'm crossing my fingers that is all you are dealing with.
Best Wishes - Melissa
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 15, 2007 - 10:30 am:
How is he this morning Holly? I'm hopeful for you!!!
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Member:
kathleen
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 15, 2007 - 10:35 am:
Holly, how is Tucker doing? Keeping my fingers crossed and sending positive thoughts.
Kathleen
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 15, 2007 - 11:36 am:
Thank you for all the sympathetic thoughts and prayers. Thank you, Dr. O., for the encouragement. The vet yesterday said that 102.5 was pretty high for a horse and he seemed really concerned to get it down really fast . . . so I got more concerned after talking with him. I had taken Tucker's temp before the vet arrived and knew it was a fraction over 102, but didn't think of it as terribly high . . . After talking to the vet, I was more concerned, though.
This morning . . . TA-DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! Tucker was perky and had a temp of 99!!! I gave him the 15cc of Banamine anyway and pulled him out of the paddock before the sun could bake him, tied him in the aisle of the barn while I did chores, then settled him under the Maple tree with hay and water again. I may not give him the 15cc tonight if he continues to act well and the temp stays normal. Will call the vet, though and update him.
Thanks, guys, for the support.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 15, 2007 - 12:09 pm:
I guess 102+ is high for an adult horse, but if one has been standing in the hot temps in the sun I'd think it possible to go up that high just from the heat. Did the vet mention the higher than normal heat as being a factor?
So glad he's doing better!! hope you are too.
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Member:
christel
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 15, 2007 - 12:27 pm:
Good news Holly!
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 15, 2007 - 1:54 pm:
Great news! Lilo
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Member:
leilani
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 15, 2007 - 3:51 pm:
GREAT news.
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 15, 2007 - 4:01 pm:
What a relief, so glad Tucker seems to be perking up!
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 15, 2007 - 5:24 pm:
Holly both of us grew up in Kansas husbands family still there and can still remember the heat and humidity of Aug/Sept. Horrible, is a mild statement. So all manner of sympathy to Tucker and you hope it was "just " the heat!!! Thank goodness for large shade trees !! Cindy
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 15, 2007 - 5:46 pm:
Excellent news, Holly! Hope Tucker continues to do well. It will be wonderful to welcome fall like weather!
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 15, 2007 - 5:52 pm:
Amen, Cindy. This pic is of the big Silver Maple. I have a huge Sycamore out behind the house, too . . . and rows of big elms lining both sides of the drive to the house (too bad I don't heat with wood . . . they are all "trash trees" and I'm forever picking up twigs and limbs after any kind of wind storm) . . . The trees are what made this place so attractive to Mark and me.
Well . . . the vet says 3 more doses of the 15cc of Banamine . . .
Met the horse hay guy at the store this a.m., and he is going to supply me with GOOD horse hay. I had been told he wasn't doing hay this year, but he said he just wasn't custom cutting . . . but he has some of the best hay he's ever had and he's a really good guy. Loves horses. Used to work at the race track north of town. Knows what good hay is all about.
Anyway, the feed store had two 12 foot gate panels . . . but six 10 foot side panels. Hmmmmm . . . Hard to make a 12 x 12 stall with those . . . BUT they had older, somewhat scarred 12 foot side panels mixed with 10 foot panels linked together to make a perimeter fence for the parking lot and supply yard . . . and, bless their hearts, they went around and picked out six of the 12 foot panels for me . . . loaded them in the truck and then said, "Now you have someone to help you unload these and set them up, right?"  Nope . . . But I have good ole New England grit and a recording of Helen Reddy (the Saddlebags will understand that part) so got the stalls set up and chained them to the trunk of the tree (so the horses couldn't drag them around the yard trying to eat grass) . . . and here's the result:
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Member:
ngossage
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 15, 2007 - 6:10 pm:
Holly, nice setup! I'm sure the horses are enjoying their new digs & that you're exhausted. Where's your spot in the shade (w/ a cool drink!)? Glad Tucker's feeling better.
Nicole
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Member:
gwen
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 15, 2007 - 6:14 pm:
Looks great, Holly. They have a great "Mommy".
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 15, 2007 - 6:16 pm:
You have some EXTREMELY lucky horses to have you for their owner, Holly. I want to type something mushy here, but instead I'll just say: Bless those men for helping you!
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 15, 2007 - 6:50 pm:
Yes Holly you are woman and we so hear you roar! That looks great! Cindy
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Member:
pbauer
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 15, 2007 - 7:10 pm:
Dear Holly,
You're an inspiration...And such a good Mommy!
Elated that, Tucker, is on the road to recovery!!...been praying for both of you.
My Very Best,
Tonya
 Bunny prayers, too~
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Member:
shirl
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 15, 2007 - 7:22 pm:
Holly, you are amazing and an inspiration for all of us. Have I said that before? Probably. But--it bears repeating. Beautiful set-up and yes, you are a good mommy.
I well know the mid-west humidity having been raised in SE South Dakota, and right now it's miserable as all get out in Tucson AZ. Come on Oct!
Take care Holly and be good to you too.
Love,
Shirl
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 15, 2007 - 7:24 pm:
wow, that looks great.. you going to keep it set up there for good?
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 15, 2007 - 7:40 pm:
LOL, Ann . . . Well, until the first lightning storm (Where's the "OH, MY GOSH!!!!" icon???) and I don't supposed there will be much shelter under the Maple after November . . . but it will work through the hot weather. These two will only be in the stalls during the really hot days. The rest of the time they can go out in their paddock with their run-in.
Last year, we had a 16x16 set up under the same tree . . . and it was where all the new horses spent their first two weeks or more until I had felt them out and they had gotten acclimated. I was happy to finally have a spot in the barn for the 16x16, and was hoping the grass would grow back in that patch under the Maple . . . ah, well. Less to mow.
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 15, 2007 - 7:54 pm:
P.S. Tonya . . . love the bunny . . .
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Member:
paul303
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 16, 2007 - 2:15 am:
Phew! What a relief!
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Member:
paardex
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 16, 2007 - 5:39 am:
I am so happy for you Holly now get yourself a chair and a glass with your favorite drink and show us a picture with you in between your troublemakers!
Jos
The bunny is almost not real!
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 16, 2007 - 9:21 am:
Great job, Holly. I don't know how you do it!
I, too, love the bunny Tonya. Is it yours?
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Member:
christel
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 16, 2007 - 9:32 am:
Holly- I am very impressed- looks like a place I would not mind camping at- they look so happy and peaceful in their new playground.
Keeping fingers crossed the episode was due to the heat only.
Chris
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Member:
pbauer
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 16, 2007 - 10:22 am:
Dear Holly, Jos, and Sara,
That bunny picture was forwarded to Paul and I by a family member...one of those cute animal threads.
I think it's loveable, too!
My Best,
Tonya
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 16, 2007 - 11:43 pm:
Hmmm, I consider over 105 pretty high and have seen occasional 106.5 (none of which had anything more serious than influenza) but 102.5 I can get after a good work out on a hot day with a healthy horse.
It is important to remember that in general the severity of the fever does not correlate with the severity of the disease but here we are correlating the EHV and the prognostic significance of the fever. For more on fever and disease see the article on vital signs.
DrO
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Friday, Aug 17, 2007 - 12:59 am:
Thank you, Dr. O. I guess that's what I was thinking, too . . . I mean, if a human's normal temp is 98.6, it seems that anything over 103 is on the way to "serious." Since a horse's temp can be 99-101 . . . 102+ didn't seem terribly high to me . . . but with the horse being down, having nasal discharge, and not eating . . . and having the EHV disease across the road within the past month . . .
I gave his last dose of Banamine tonight. Both this morning and tonight his temp has been a fraction over 100 degrees . . . I hope that is his "normal" and that it doesn't start to climb now that the Banamine is withdrawn. I will take his temp at the next 2-3 feedings to see if it maintains at 100. Will the effects of the Banamine continue for a day or so?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Aug 20, 2007 - 6:27 am:
I have never seen any work that measures this but I would expect the flunixin's "fever suppressing action" to be active somewhere between 4 and 24 hours.
DrO
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Member:
qh4me
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 21, 2007 - 3:12 pm:
Wow, I haven't been on in a while, but Holly, I am so glad to hear that Tucker has recovered. My goodness, you have had such a tough summer. You are an incredible person!!
We just went through a really nasty bug with my 2 yearlings. They picked something up at a show and had a 104+ fever for 6 days. I had to keep them on the banamine or it would creap right back up there. One broke on the 3rd day but then came back a couple days later. They wouldn't eat a thing with the fever, but would get their appetite back a bit with the banamine. The vet took blood when they came down sick and again 2 weeks later and had it tested to hopefully tell us what it was, but to their dismay, it came back inconclusive. And all my horses are fully vaccinated.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Friday, Aug 24, 2007 - 12:59 am:
Hi Holly,how is Tucker doing, still o.k.? Sure hope so! And....how are you doing, girl? You're one hard working woman! I'm really impressed with all you're able to do.
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