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Discussion on Plain ol' vanilla desperate . . .
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New Member:
Ccpm
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 13, 2004 - 2:04 pm:
Please let me apologize for what will be a lengthy post, but I have spent two years now trying to get someone to listen to me - and really examine my horse - without any success and now I'm so afraid for his future and don't know where to turn.
He's not an FEI prospect, nor was he ever headed for the Grand Prix ring at West Palm. Nor is he lame: he has never taken an off-step in his life, but I now have people telling me he shouldn't be ridden. He is a coming-7 Perch/TB gelding. I've had him since he was very small - got him kind of by default - no one else wanted him. I hadn't had a horse in 25 years, so my knowledge was dated and I was limited to the resources available to me where he was boarded: a vet who specializes in cattle and "doesn't believe" in EPSM and the barn-owner who subscribes to the "4-flakes-per-day" hay theory.
I bought a lot of extra hay and when he was 3, broke him very slowly: he was very, very clumsy; very poor balance and stumbled terribly - over nothing and sometimes to his knees. We lunged, ground-DrOve and walked and trotted for a year. He tried very hard to please, but his own clumsiness made him fearful and it was slow-going, but as he continued to grow and muscle out, he improved; I found another farrier and discovered he had been wearing shoes two sizes too small. This farrier also started "building up" his left hind foot to try and counter a relatively minor "cow-hocking" in that leg.
Once he was lifting his back and reaching for the bit; going nicely in a frame, I introduced the canter outdoors in a big arena to build his confidence. I was always a "hunter/jumper" person, but I tried to use the principles advocated by dressage riders to get his butt under him for balance, and it seemed to work. He didn't work well "long and low". When his work became harder, he began to colic after every ride. 2 hours and 20 minutes after every ride. Everyone, of course, had an opinion as to why this was happening: I wasn't cooling him properly; he was being fed improperly, blah, blah blah. The episodes were mild at first and increased in duration and intensity. After each, I'd withhold feed and treat him with massive amounts of Pepto, per the cow-vet, and he'd recover. The 11th time in 4 months the cow-vet had to give him mineral oil via nasal tube and really was very ill - I felt he should go to Tufts, but I had no support for that decision. The cow-vet said he had ulcers but that Tuft's endoscope was "down" and that probably would be a waste of time anyway. I ordered the $4000 worth of Gastroguard, but he had a huge allergic reaction to the first dose: he was covered in hives the size of dinner plates; his eyes were swollen shut and he was having trouble urinating. That took a week to resolve. The cow-vet then said the ulcers would heal by themselves eventually and pretty much washed her hands of the situation. There wasn't anyone else to call, or I would have.
I put him on good free-choice hay, water and carrots for two weeks. Using the internet, I found the info on EPSM and it all seemed applicable. I begged the vet to do the biopsy, but she refused because his CK and LDH were WNL. I put him on alfalfa cubes and vegetable oil with supplemental selenium and E and he never colicked again. The cow-vet referred to my treatment as "that silly Crisco diet".
He was started over fences at 5 by a friend of mine who also happens to be an active National Grand Prix League competitor: I mean, the woman rides against Nona Garson and Todd Minikus. By this time, he was also being shod by her husband who shoes on the HITS circuit -he never said my guy needed anything special, just short toes and set-back shoes. Mind, both they and I knew he wasn't an "A-circuit" horse, but she trained him and he shod him out of friendship for me. My reasons for mentioning this will become clearer shortly. What my horse lacked in natural athletic ability, he made up for in enthusiasm: but it soon became evident that he certainly wasn't a hunter and he surely wasn't a 3' eq horse. But we started him at small shows and he never, EVER failed to pin - in whatever I stuck him in. He'd happily jump around 2'6" or go on trail rides at the beach and play in the ocean - whatever you asked, he was up for it.
This past summer, he got Lyme Disease and he was really ill. The cow-vet said treating him with IM Naxcel would get him better the quickest, so I went with that and he seemed to recover. But he never got his energy back. He was sick in July and I waited until September to show him again and he was exhausted. I moved him to another barn, where a different vet made calls: one who was highly recommended. In November, I faxed all of his records to this vet; explained about the EPSM and how I thought it was time for a biopsy to be sure. But the vet "didn't have time right now to get involved in a complicated feeding problem", but "the office would call me when there was an appointment available". Despite my repeated phone calls, no appointment ever became available. Meanwhile, my horses's excercise tolerance was DrOpping and DrOpping. By January, he could not be ridden for longer then about 20 minutes. He'd try and continue, but he just couldn't. He doesn't sweat, or breath hard, but he will start to stumble and trip if pushed. My hunter/jumper trainer and shoer were baffled - and baffled in Florida -, so I phoned the vet again. He agrees to draw blood. He doesn't phone me with the results, but when I go to retrieve them, the CPK and OT are WNL; no CBC or LDH has been done. But my horse's Amylase is 271. It is my understanding that horses produce little measurable serum amylase, and for that reason 'normal parameters" are not routinely included on equine chemistry panels? The only "normals" I could find were established during clinical trials of Legend and those were found to be 40 - 140 iU/L. I tried to phone the vet, but he would not return my calls.
I decide to move my horse across state to what seems to be a well-credentialed dressage facility, thinking 1) perhaps something in the way he has been being ridden is causing these problems and 2) they will have access to a vet.
My horse is immediately the "hit" of the barn. These are all dressage people - I don't know dressage from fromage, but they all seem to think he is the best thing since sliced bread. Everyone stands around and "oohs" and "ahhs" as he is ridden by the "head trainer" - a young woman; a bronze and silver medalist. Which isn't surprising: he's a flashy horse. He's tired, but he seems to like working for this woman - and she raves about him. Shortly, the subject of showing comes up. I had spoken of maybe doing some low level 2-phase stuff with him, but she starts in with "Dressage At Devon"??? Right. But first, let me take him to Ocala and put him in the Level 6's.
A day or two later I get a phone call. Her farrier is there. "Do I want to bother with the expense of egg bars on his hind feet, seeing as how he probably is going to break down and collapse because of his long pasterns?" I can't even reply. I have no idea what she is talking about. She tells me her farrier has decreed him "unsafe" for her to ride, but she'll keep going if I want even tho he'll probably collapse under her, permanently crippled, at any given moment. Not knowing what else to do, I had the $250 dollar shoes put on him, much to his dismay and asked her to schedule a vet farm call. The vet cannot give me a appointment time - he's too busy to come for one horse - but he'll "squeeze me in" if I want to trailer in with one of the trainer's horses. I find out what I can about the vet - he's well-credentialed; has a big equine practice and believes in EPSM. I meet the trainer there: the vet doesn't want info from me because he has already been briefed by the trainer. He doesn't even give me a chance to tell him what I want to do with the horse: for all he knows, I'm aiming for the Kentucky Derby. I've had the horse 6 years; she's had him 2 weeks. I feel like I'm in someone else's bad dream. This is what he says: "I've examined your horse, and like ______ says, he has a conformation flaw - long in the pasterns - and will probably break down and collapse." Now, I try to not anthropomorphize, but we all do it. And I'm standing there, looking at this big goofy trusting guy who's looking back at me as if to say "what are we doing here?" and I start to cry. And the vet gets this incredibly embarassed look on his face. And I say "what should I do? Should I just put him down?" And he won't answer me. I pull myself together and get the vet to take the EPSM biopsy and draw a full panel of bloodwork. I ask him about the 271 Amylase. His reply is :"you can't take that too seriously - he could have gotten that by rolling". I replied: "You mean 'tissue or muscle amylase? Isn't it a digestive enzyme? How would it be released that way?" And he just brushed me off. I asked if it were possible my horse had a low-level case of chronic pancreatitis from the EPSM diet, but he said he was way behind schedule and that if my horse had pancreatitis he'd be a lot sicker than he was.
Standing in the parking lot, I asked the trainer how her lameness evaluation went. She said 'oh, he just injected his hocks". I asked when the x-rays had been done, as I knew there hadn't been time for them to be done that day and she said "I've been using this vet for so long, he just goes along with what ever I say."
I had told the trainer and the barn owner that I wouldn't be making any decisions until I got the bloodwork and the biopsy back - which the vet told us would take close to a month. But two days later, the trainer phoned me and asked when I was moving my horse.
So. Is he long through the pasterns? Sure. He's also short coupled and his shoulder is on the straight side. But he's also never taken a lame step in his life. I know this post must sound like I'm some kind of crazy paranoid unpleasant person who no one wants to deal with. And at this point, I probably am a little crazy, but it's with worry. There is no one I can trust and I don't know who to turn to for advice.
I'm leaving him at the dressage barn until the results come back. No one's riding him - I'm taking him for walks because I'm afraid I'll hurt him. I realize I may be dealing with multiple issues, but I'd appreciate advice on any one of them.
Carol
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Member:
Albionsh
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 13, 2004 - 2:54 pm:
Carole, how frustrated and desperate you must be! My sympathy is with you and your sweet boy. I suppose contacting another vet is not an option in your area? You may be able to "interview" the possible candidates by phone before you make the next appointment. Is it possible to contact the nearest vet school and ask for a list of their latest graduates? Maybe such a person is less likely to have the pre-set notions you have encountered so far. Also, being the original contact person would put you more in the loop, since you are, after all, paying the bill. I hope you find the help you need.
Nancy
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 13, 2004 - 7:12 pm:
Welcome to Horseadvice Carol,
The pronouncements of impending doom are subjective evaluations. Already you have had equine pros look at your horse that have not made such dire predictions, and the majority of such predictions never come to fruition. I would ignore these.
What are your goals concerning horses and with this horse in particular?
DrO
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 14, 2004 - 4:19 am:
Carol,
I believe that dressage and jumping training is too subjective to be used as a base to evaluate a horse's condition and potential system problems. What exactly do you mean by riding for 20 minutes?
How does he perform on 3 repetitions of 10 min trot / 5 min walk? 15 trot / 5 walk? 20 trot / 5 walk?
Not collected trot, not dressage trot, not your trot, but HIS natural trot?
How does he cope when you introduce an 1 min canter? 3 min? 5 min? Again, HIS natural canter?
Is a trail ride an option? How does he perform when he is not in the arena?
An immature, "clumsy" horse of any age can easily be destroyed with 20 min of "dressage" every other day, to the extend that, as you describe, he may colic badly and he may be confused enough to stumble to his knees.
And I have seen this happening mostly to horses that are big, sweet and willing, much like your baby sounds...
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Member:
Fpony
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 14, 2004 - 7:33 am:
Hi Carol,
Wow, you've been on quite a ride!
I agree with Christos, why not take him to a quite barn and see how he does with some fun riding and see how he feels. My horse was confirmed EPSM with a muscle biopsy. It does bring a bit of piece of mind knowing I'm not just crazy.We went to Tufts to rule out some other things as he kept having what I thought was abdominal pain and we too first treated with Gastoguard for ulcers. The biopsy at Tufts was $280. I'm sure you would have to pay the $125 arrival fee,too.
Also, I sure would look for a user friendly vet that knows horses. good Luck! Kim
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Member:
36541
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 14, 2004 - 12:14 pm:
Carol, a picture might help for conformation opinions from members who have interest and experience. Can you post one to your profile? My sisters and I grew up on a thoroughbred with exceptionally long pasterns, who ended up with some very vertical hind legs in his twenties, but lasted sound until 26. Length of back can hurt or help you I have found. With respect to the vet services, is it possible you might need to be more demanding? You are the customer, and medicine is a bit of a business, so if you have the $300+, I'd push pretty bluntly 'till I got my biopsy. At any rate, welcome to the site, I am sure you will enjoy the support and intelligent horse discourse that transpires... Stacy
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Member:
Canyon28
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 14, 2004 - 1:59 pm:
I think the places you have had this horse have been pushing him way too hard and that you should retire him to just pleasure riding and playdays, small open shows if you like to show. Why are you putting this poor horse through all this when his health is obviously not the best to begin with? Many horses in the best of health and soundness cannot deal with show barns and showing, period. It takes a special kind of mental toughness to get a horse through showing, talent is not enough. The feeding program you had before seemed to be working , and I would get him back on the high fat low carb diet. Take this horse home and just enjoy him for being the sweet gentle horse he is, and if you want a show horse find another one that doesnt have all these health and soundness issues. I think the last trainer you had is just making excuses and running your bill up.
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Member:
Canyon28
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 14, 2004 - 2:04 pm:
I meant to add that you are the owner and you are the one that should know what is best for this horse. Trainers will tell you almost anything to make excuses as to why the horse isnt doing well, etc. I dont think your horse needs the special shoes , etc, and that his conformation is so poor as she is suggesting, but at the same time, the other health issues this horse has , leads me to believe that this is just too much pressure on him, the ulcers are one of the biggest things that show how much stress this horse has been under. He needs to be retired to a pleasure horse,before he colics for good.
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Member:
Ccpm
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 14, 2004 - 2:05 pm:
You folks have no idea how glad I was to see your replies
My post was so rambling: let me clarify where he stands right now:
He hasn't colicked since he was put on the EPSM diet four years ago. He stopped stumbling and falling a long time ago too: he'll do trot rails or canter rails the whole length of an arena and never touch one; his fences are clean and he sees his own spots - so long as they aren't very highfences: he's a big, heavy horse who doesn't jump well through his shoulder. 2' is easy; 2'3" is pretty; 2'6" is acceptable and 2'9" is Not that he isn't perfectly willing, just delusional
But as to his exercise intolerance, Christos, your point is well taken:
A round pen would, I suppose, give some insight. Unfortunately, I don't have access to one . .I have never made a practice of lunging my horses without benefit of cavesson and bit - old school, I guess - and that does take away from the "natural" aspect of gait analysis I think you're referring to? Even so, on a lunge line, this guy has much more stamina than when carrying a rider: any rider. The last time he was worked seriously on the ground I gave up before he did. I worked him in both directions; lot of transitions and worked up to the canter for - maybe 8 or 10 minutes at a time. Total time: probably an hour. No sweating, no blowing. And he was working in a frame with his back up during all this - because if I were to put this particular guy on a lunge line with just a halter, he'd be out there on the end of the string with his head and tail in the air roaring around at 700 MPH - unless maybe I had a lunge line a mile long. This stems from his balance problems when he was young - he took some real nasty diggers - and it's why he's always looking for the security of that outside rein and inside leg.
Also, understand: this dressage training had been going on less than two weeks when he was pronounced "dangerous". I think he had been ridden a total of . . .7 times.
His "formal" training over fences ended last fall. Except for a few small schooling jumps and cavalettis indoors, he hasn't been over anything since November. With the winter as it has been, all he has been doing is going round and round in an indoor arena. . .gee, doesn't sound real pleasant to me, either.
Everyone's advice to get him outside sounds very good. There's a state forest adajcent to the dressage barn.
Again, this is going to sound . . nuts, but it's the truth. There are three vets that "have practices" in my half of the state. One is about 300 years old; getting ready to retire and prefers to treat Saddlebreds. (Don't ask - I have no idea) The other is the cow-vet. And the other is the vet who doesn't have the time to get involved with complicated feeding problems. There are LOTS of vets in the other half of the state. They treat 100K horses. You have to have a referral for an appointment - to which you would have to trailer in. And there's no way in the world they'd ever show up for an emergency farm call.
I think I am in a rather . . .odd position. My horse is not an A circuit horse. He's not worth a lot of money (seems to be turning out he's not worth ANY money, but that's not the point). He looks like the picture of health. And if someone else owned him, it's likely they would have decided he was lazy and relegated him to some riding school somewhere giving x-rail lessons - not spending thousands of dollars trying to figure out what's making him "lazy". The situation is so bad I'm thinking about moving.
To Dr. O:
Thank you for the calming words. If it is that this particular dressage barn does not want my horse there, it's not the first time this sort of thing has happened. I just wish they had not chosen this particular method to evict him.
You asked about my goals: This is my last horse. I'd like him to stick around for a while longer. I don't bounce as well as I used to and have no business over 4'9" anymore. Ideally, I'd like him to be able to compete in a very low-key way for a year or two more. Schooling and local eq classes aren't too high for him - unless he's going to collapse. I also wanted to try low-level combined training - tiny fences and beginner dressage tests - just local. Certainly none of these every week-end. Maybe 6 or 8 times a year for another year or two. Then I'd like him to be sound for trail riding and soccer - which he dearly loves to play - and he ALWAYS wins.
1. Do you think, given what you know about him, that it is relatively safe for me to take him outside and let him poke around and see how he does?
2. Could I please have your comments on elevated amylase in horses? I'm not going to go running back to the trainer's vet - but I need to know. Is the proper follow-up a trypsin level as lipase is not always a good indicator? Could the elevated amylase be tied to the EPSM? Is there such a thing as "tissue amylase"?
Again, thank you all for your support and patience. I feel so much better knowing someone is listening.
Carol
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Member:
Npruitt
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 14, 2004 - 2:30 pm:
Dear Carol:
I have been through the same thing with my horse who was everyone's dream,so much so that people used to fight over him, and stop talking to me if I didn't let them lease him from me. But when he started to have problems, in his case intestinal problems, he all of a sudden became difficult, dangerous, lazy, and many of the same people who wanted him before made it very clear that they did not want me or him anywhere near their place. Of course, I also had the misfortune of having a crazy, diappointed former riding instruction harrassing people about him, but in any case, it sounds like you are going through the same thing. I have found that many horse people and vets think horses are useless if you can't compete them, and they will tell you horrible things that you don't want to hear like "your horse has long pasterns and he is going to collapse". In my horses case, I was woken up at least once a week at 6:00am to be told that my horses stool was loose, and that I was probably going to have to put him down. That was when I said, "Enough! I am going to retire him, let some kids I know take pony rides on him, and that is it!"
Carol, I think you should do the same. It is obvious that you love your horse and you are not in the wrong to try to get the best veterinary care in the world for him. Unfortunately, you are experiencing what a lot of people in the horse world are dealing with: lack of good equine vets. But hang in there, and don't give up on your boy. He loves you and you love him, and whatever you decide to do with him ultimately, ride for pleasure, compete, retire him, etc. you are in the right to do, because he is your horse! Don't ever let anyone tell you he is not worth the effort because he can't be used in the show ring. People who say that are in it for the glory and the ribbons. If they were real horse people, meaning that they do horse things because they care about the well-being of the horse, they wouldn't be disrespectful to you because you want to make your horse feel better.
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Member:
Ccpm
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 14, 2004 - 3:53 pm:
Thank you, Christine, for your inciteful and well-thought out comments. However:
1. My horse does not, nor did he ever have, ulcers.
2. He hasn't had even mild indigestion, never mind a case of colic since he was put on the EPSM diet almost 3 years ago. He has remained on that diet continuously since then.
3. These problems have nothing to do with the high pressure of showing. He has not been in show training, nor has he been to a show, for the better part of a year.
4. Due to the limitations of winter and my inability to ride in wind chills hovering at 20 below, has he had the opportunity to skip through the forest recently? No.
5. He has no soundness issues: he has never taken an unsound step in his life, nor does he have any other obvious problems. This is what we are trying to determine.
6. The issues I am seeking help with here, Cristine, have nothing to do with "retirement". They have to do with whether I should euthanize a six year old animal who appears to be the picture of health and I have had since he was a weanling. Unfortunately for me, I happen to live in an area of the country where 1/4 acre building lots go for 100K. "Home" will be a boarding barn, as it is for the vast majority of horse in my state. If he can't do any work, it is unfair to ask him to live out his life in a stall and a paddock. There is no way I would ever, EVER give him away; trusting someone to take care of him and not resell him. People who do that with compromised horses are just kidding themselves. There are no facilities with acres and acres of rolling meadows available to me. I appreciate your pronouncement that he doesn't need the egg bars, but since I already paid for them, I think I'll just leave them on til he's due to be shod again. And your extra-sensory perception pastern conformation evaluation - that was helpful also.
People from all walks of life and in all kinds of situations post messages on boards like these. Don' be so quick to judge circumstances you don't understand - and certainly those you haven't even read correctly.
To everyone else - sorry that was curt. It seems there's always someone on message boards who reads half a post and jumps into the fray adding nothing. I am struggling enough with this without being accused of "putting my poor horse" through anything.
He has had the biopsy: I am awaiting the results.
I thought about posting an picture, but I think I'd rather wait until I move him. I'd have to take a shot there - all the ones I have are over fences - and he's pretty identifiable. . .
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Member:
Canyon28
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 14, 2004 - 5:14 pm:
"Once he was lifting his back and reaching for the bit; going nicely in a frame, I introduced the canter outdoors in a big arena to build his confidence. I was always a "hunter/jumper" person, but I tried to use the principles advocated by dressage riders to get his butt under him for balance, and it seemed to work. He didn't work well "long and low". When his work became harder, he began to colic after every ride. 2 hours and 20 minutes after every ride. Everyone, of course, had an opinion as to why this was happening: I wasn't cooling him properly; he was being fed improperly, blah, blah blah. The episodes were mild at first and increased in duration and intensity. After each, I'd withhold feed and treat him with massive amounts of Pepto, per the cow-vet, and he'd recover. The 11th time in 4 months the cow-vet had to give him mineral oil via nasal tube and really was very ill - I felt he should go to Tufts, but I had no support for that decision. The cow-vet said he had ulcers but that Tuft's endoscope was "down" and that probably would be a waste of time anyway. I ordered the $4000 worth of Gastroguard, but he had a huge allergic reaction to the first dose: he was covered in hives the size of dinner plates; his eyes were swollen shut and he was having trouble urinating. That took a week to resolve. The cow-vet then said the ulcers would heal by themselves eventually and pretty much washed her hands of the situation. There wasn't anyone else to call, or I would have"
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If you will reread what you posted, which the above is a direct copy, you will see that your horse was treated both for colic and ulcers. I was just responding to what you had in your original post. I never said he was unsound, you said your trainer told you he was going to be unsound,so I responded that if he has health and unsoundness issues, why push it?. I think you were somewhat rude to me in your resonse, and there was no need to be. You wrote to this message board asking for comments, and you got them. I of course, do not know your situation there as far as being able to keep him boarded and cared for, and you never offered those, except in your curt response. I also never suggested you sell him or donate him to anyone. <p>I know you are angry at the problems your horse is having and the lack of good veterinary care available in your area, but dont take it out on posters such as myself. I dont know if I could euthanize such a young animal, but if you are determined that he can never have a second career or another good home such as the one you have given him, then you should do what you determine best for him. <p>I have several horses that no one else would want, but they each have a purpose in life and will always have a home here. One is a mare with only one eye. She is a grand daughter of a very famous cutting horse and is only 7 years old. Someday some of her foals will also be famous, I hope. She is not even broke to ride. The other is an older grade appy gelding, about 20, that is completely navicular and lame in front , but he still loves life and with special shoeing , he is comfortable. He is also my weanling babysitter and teacher. I dont regret the 75 or 80 dollars every 6 weeks that I have to spend on his front shoeing. There are many people I know that have what can be described as "rescue' horses on their farms. No horse is perfect. Each horse has its own set of "issues", that can either be something that is manageble or unmanageable. I guess it boils down to what you can "live" with. To me each horse has value, no matter what its pedigree or training, and each horse can have a job, whether that job is just being a companion or a pretty horse in a pasture eating grass all day, or a million dollar cutting horse stallion. I am sorry you felt the need to write to me the way you did.
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 14, 2004 - 7:08 pm:
Hi, Its a shame that when horse people who you should trust tell you all sorts of stuff. When I first got my arab I had him at a high end barn. They told me he has hip problems and that if I worked him too hard he would go lame. He would never be good at anything. I cried and cried. But then i thought that was Rubbish.
I adopted him so they thought why is someone giving this horse away. Must be something wrong.
How I got him, was the owner had him as a foal and raised him she had an adoption program. She did not want to sell him because she loved him and wanted the best life for him . she was able to put him thru the addoption program so she could moniter him. She ended up giving him to me outright .
I have learned to listen to all but not beleive what everyone says. Pick and choose what makes sense in your particular situation.Follow your heart and gut instinct. You know the horse better than everyone. My horse who supposedly could never do hard work got 3rd in each of his first 3 hunter paces. And we didnt even push ourselves. Lots of slow training. tons of happy trails. Only 5 minutes of collected work at the end of riding while his muscles were warmed. This worked wonders for us.But like I said you do what you think your horse can handle. Forget all the advise. even mine. Just find your horses comfort zone and work from there. Enjoy.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Monday, Mar 15, 2004 - 9:17 am:
Dear Carol,
I think that the best way to evaluate a horse's mental and physical condition is out on the trail, with a rider that will interfere as little as possible. You'll have to let the horse pick the tempo and frame that suits him the best.
Horses that collapse during free and relaxed work are extremely rare, and I seriously doubt this is your case. On the other hand, horses stumbling, collapsing, rearing, running away etc during "serious" work are not rare at all.
If your horse can happily trot 20km but he collapses after ten minutes of arena work, it is the training program that you should re-evaluate, not the horse!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Mar 15, 2004 - 9:58 am:
Taking your questions in order:
1) Do you mean safe for you or safe for the horse? But either way I am not sure what begs the question, he is not lame or tripping currently, right?
2) Your vet's implication that amylase rises in response to muscle trauma is not true, or at least I find no support for the notion. Amylase is released from the pancrease in elevated amounts when inflammed but can also be elevated in small intestinal inflammatory diseases and kidney dysfuntion do to decreased clearance. You do not give the units that your horse's sample was reported in. Some labs report per liter and some per deciliter and the difference in the normal numbers would be ten fold so check to see what the units are. The most frequent primary clinical sign of acute pancreatitis in the horse is colic.
DrO
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Member:
Ccpm
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 16, 2004 - 10:43 am:
Dr. O:
By "safe" I'm referring to these allegations that, even tho my horse is not lame at the moment and never has been lame, his conformation (specifically: long back pasterns) puts him in danger of "collapsing without warning any time in the future". That's exactly how it was put to me by the trainer. The vet was somewhat more vague: "horses of this conformation most often break down completely" - but the vet wasn't up for a lot of conversation. This whole situation sounds so . . .lame to me: have you had cases where this has happened? All I can envision is him walking or trotting along and then suddenly be sitting on his butt. Although the trainer had been telling me he had been tripping, I never saw it. And when I pushed her she admitted that, aside from one "stumble" during his first ride in her ring - which has very deep footing - he did not trip or stumble at all - even when she was pushing to work through his 20 minute window.
As to the exercise intolerance issue:
His amylase of 271 was reported in iU/L. And just another point: this vet told me amylase was secreted from the liver. I didn't argue with him because I'm not an expert in equine physiology. But I do have a pretty good background in human physiology. Where amylase is not secreted in the liver.
Please tell me if this theory regarding his exercise intolerance makes any sense:
1. My horse does have EPSM: the biopsy will confirm that.
2. His reduced carbohydrate / increased fat diet has delayed the conventional progression of the disease (ie: tying up, colic, elevated CK, etc.) but has not been providing him with sufficient energy
3. In an (unsuccessul) attempt to convert glycogen and utilize / digest carbohydrate for energy, he has started secreting elevated amounts of amylase ("pseudo pancreatitis"?)
While this alone could account for his exercise intolerance . . . .
4. Long term, this excessive pancreatic activity may have in some manner, compromised his glucose / insulin response, causing symptoms of diabetes or hypoglycemia - he is prone to very chubby and has an FBS of 122mg/dl, which I gather is borderline? - and result in exercise intolerance?
So . .if this makes sense, would a glucose challenge or a 6-hour tolerance help? I know I need to wait for the results of that biopsy and the repeat chem12 but I'm trying to formulate a plan here.
thank you
Carol
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 17, 2004 - 7:32 am:
I presume the vet is concerned about degenerative suspensory disease which usually has a chronic onset and not an acute collapse. If he has very long pasterns and particularly if they are DrOpped he is at a slightly to moderately increased risk for suspensory strain but it is impossible to put a number on this risk.
If I understand you correctly your basic pathogenesis is flawed. The pancrease does not secrete extra amylase in response to the muscles impaired ability to process sugars nor does excessive pancreatic activity result in insulin intolerance (type 2 diabetes).
Primary pancreatitis is almost not reported in the literature for horses and secondary quite rare, this is the reason the test in not often run and information on levels scant. Without clearer signs of pancreatic disease I am not sure this lab finding is diagnostic of a pancreatic problem. I would repeat the amylase and also run lipase at a lab that does enough horses that they have a set of normals for horses.
You keep poking around the notion that your horse may have what has become to be described as Equine Metabolic SynDrOme, for more on this see Equine Diseases » Endocrine Disorders »
Equine Metabolic SynDrOme (Peripheral Cushings).
DrO
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Member:
Ccpm
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 17, 2004 - 6:52 pm:
Dr. O,
Thank you for your explanation on this "long pastern = impending doom" issue. I understand.
As far as the other issue: I'm really not "poking around" anything - and I assure you I'm not trying to make the situation more complicated than it is. I'm sorry if it sounds that way. I have virtually no support and am only trying to figure out why my six year old horse is acting like he's a hundred and forty. I have read your papers on EMS - and others. But he's never had laminitis: he's never even been lame. His neck is EXTREMELY cresty: 10 on a scale of 1-10. I've calculated his weight - 665 Kg - as carefully as I can. He's 16.2; his cannon bones are 25 cm in circumference and his chest 64 cm across. He's a big horse. So while he's probably closer to a 7 than a 6 on the condition scale - he's not obese - even according to that last vet who glanced at him.
I wasn't thinking that amylase was being produced in direct reponse to muscle activity: more that whatever complex carbohydrates still remain in his diet - and there have to be SOME present, even feeding alfalfa cubes and Wesson oil - those carbs were causing his body to generate and release extra amylase in an attempt to digest them for the energy his muscles need: the energy they can't get from glycogen due to EPSM. And that, long term, this "compensatory" activity might have compromised that portion of his pancreas that produces insulin - if that is where horse-insulin is made. As I have tried to express: I'm pretty desperate which is the only reason I posed the possible etiology to you.
The amylase and his other chemistries are being repeated. I wasn't offered the opportunity to choose where they would be performed: I feel lucky they were drawn.
I'm sorry for being a bother. I'm not purporting to be anything except the owner of one horse no one else cares one whit about. I will post the repeat chemistry results soon.
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 17, 2004 - 7:24 pm:
can you take conformation shots for us... make sure they are light enough... some of the pictures posted are so darn dark... ( lighten them before you post them in your photo file..)
Ann
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 18, 2004 - 6:25 am:
Carol,
What I understand from your posts is that this horse is a beautiful character, is not lame, is not in pain, does not colic, does not stumble and he displays good stamina. He is a big horse with long pasterns, which makes for a beautiful ride. His long pasterns have not caused any discomfort through basic jumping.
You only say that he gets confused, tired or fed up after 20 minutes or so of continuous collected work. Well, as far as I know, that is a "problem" with 99% of the horses on this planet.
I may sound stupid, but I do not understand at all what the problem is!
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 18, 2004 - 6:33 am:
This horse will suddenly collapse, possibly liquify instantly and be absorbed into the ground ? Boo....
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 18, 2004 - 6:45 am:
The primary symptom of EMS is a hard to control obesity, the founder is a secondary problem. If your horse is insulin resistant the article will help you address this.
DrO
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Member:
Liliana
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 18, 2004 - 11:57 am:
Hi Carol,
I have to admit that I am also confused as to what the problem is. Perhaps it is not a horse problem but a people’s attitude to big horses problem.
When I had a 17¨3"hh Shire x TB although he jumped 5¨clear, and was fantastic in ever way, I always got negatative comments from most people.
When we arrived at a local show (because he loved jumping), there would always be the giggle, dirty look, that carthorse is in the wrong place kind of comment.
It was hard to find a livery yard as according to some people, he would destroy the stable and kill the other horses.
Many times people are afraid of what they do not know, and most people have QH, Arabs, TB or anything either that BIG HORSES precisely because the misconceptions that people have about them and tend to think that they are monsters from out of space.
My advice would be, take no notice, if the horse is sound and happy, then it is not a horse problem but a people problem
Have fun with him,
Liliana
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Member:
Paix
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 18, 2004 - 3:04 pm:
Hi Carol,
Ive been keeping up with this post. Im sorry for all the confusion and desperation that seems to be going on for you. Sounds like you are trying your best to understand all the "advice" youve gotten over the years.
It seems from your posts your trying to say everything you can about the situation to make it as clear as possible. It is a bit confusing, tho.
I too dont understand exactly what is happening. It sounds like, when I try to put everything together as objectively as possible from the posts, the problems lie in the "things" people are telling you and how those things are interpreted.
A bit of human social psychological factors come to mind in the scenario thats been layed out.
Seems like you know your horse well and are certain he is sound over many years of experience with him. I would have faith in your judgement.
I know this can be scary as we want to do whats best for our horses. When someone who is deemed a "professional" says something to contradict your experience - its worth looking at - but this seems to have been going on for a while and your experience most likely outweights the comments.
You mentioned your knowledge with horses was "dated" - Horses havent changed much in 25 years - I believe you wld know now, as you did back then, if a horse youve been this intimate with for several years was desperately unsound.
I think Lillian and a few others have made the great point to enjoy him for the horse he is.
One last Q - why dont you want to post pix? The response I understood seemed a bit strange to me. "He's pretty identifyable..."
Maybe I am naive, but here goes... Why is that a problem if you have your horses best interest in mind and youre truly seeking the best evaluative feedback possible from the forum?
I wish you and your boy the best. This is a great forum with many good perspectives and great information. For me, I hear what people say, evaluate it against my experience and individual circumstances, then I take what seems to fit best the siuation at hand.
Take care.
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Member:
Imogen
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 20, 2004 - 10:26 am:
Great post, Dina.
Imogen
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