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Discussion on Confirmed diagnosis of DJD...
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Monday, Mar 29, 2004 - 10:10 am:
I had my guy xrayed Saturday. The vet developed them and compared them to last year. He said there are definite signs of DJD -- Western Pleasure ONLY...no discipline where he needs to engage the hind end and he will stay sound. I'm sad, but at the same time I'm glad because now I know not to push him at all and I will have a sound horse for a LONG time....I hope.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Mar 29, 2004 - 12:08 pm:
To be honest Aileen, I do not know of any scientific work that suggests such predictions/recommendations that could be made from radiographs of a sound horse. Does your horse have a history of lameness from this joint in the past?
DrO
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Monday, Mar 29, 2004 - 12:23 pm:
Yes, I looked for my old post, but couldn't find it. He came up very lame last December, that's when we took the first xrays.
He wasn't lame all year, stiff...yes and always worked out of it, but not lame from his joints. I was going to start him back in training this year, but wanted to see how he was doing before I pushed him, hence the second set of xrays. First flexions were done, and he was positive. Then we did the xrays.
He's not bad, but in order for him not to get worse, the decision was made for him not to be asked to engage his hind end too much at all.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Monday, Jul 19, 2004 - 4:40 pm:
I'll tack on to this thread my updates on my guy.
Since March, he has been getting progressively worse. It's taken 20 to 25 minutes to warm up now. I took him off Reitsport Lite and put him back on Cosequin. He had no change in stride.
So I had his hocks injected 8 days ago with HA and cortisone.
He has been hesitant...I think he's been waiting for pain... but striding very well...at the walk - one footfall ahead of his front - at the trot - two to three footfalls.
I just started cantering him again two days ago -- this is what hurt him the most -- He is now smooth in his transitions.
I'm still trying to get the accupuncturist out - hopefully by next weekend - He's getting a massage on Friday.
Geesh...$$$$$$
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 20, 2004 - 7:38 am:
If the horse has responded to the positive therapy of IA injection why do you spend money on accupuncture, a therapy that has nothing to recommend it for DJD of the hock and you can massage your own horse. That way you and your horse get the benefit. Just thinking about your last comment of "$$$$$$". You appear to be your own worse enemy here.
DrO
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 20, 2004 - 10:11 am:
Yes...I am...I'm feeling guilty and want him to be perfectly pain free...this is for me and for him -- to ease my guilt - I know I know 
He is sensitive on his back - his sac****** something. So the accupunturist will hopefully rule out back/hip issues. The massage therapist said that is the only part of him that could possibly be causing him pain. She had said that he needed a shorter saddle (western) a while back and I didn't listen because the saddle fitter said it fit him perfectly. Well, I tried a shorter saddle a couple of weeks ago...it was the very first time in a long time I've felt his back actually come UP to me fully...all the way... So I'm covering my bases...again...guilt.
When do you learn who to listen to and who NOT to listen to?
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Member:
Onehorse
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 20, 2004 - 11:09 am:
Aileen,
I've been following your past few posts and felt compelled to write when I saw your last post and the question "when do you learn who to listen to and who not to listen to?"
Well ... I'm not so sure you should listen to me (lol), but ....
Seems to me that you are caught in a viscious circle of guilt, perfection, guilt, feelings of inadequancy (in terms of geting your horse 'well'), and more guilt, and trying everything before really giving enough time for the last 'thing' to fully be effective. So ....
relax. Try and relax your anxiousness and take a break. Perhaps his back pain is not the saddle but caused by your anxiousness in the saddle. Being driven by 'guilt' is not a good thing ... in horses, in life.
It sounds like the joint problems are under control, but now there's a backache.
You asked who to listen to ... listen to your horse ... and stay off his back for a few days. Since there's nothing showing biologically in that area, that might be the best cure for him. Do nothing. See if that works.
I'm not the most experienced horse person by any means ... but I have learned that horses have amazing recovery powers ... especially with little aches and pains that seem to have no 'cause' if given the time that they need. Sort of like if you get a mild sprain or muscle ache ... it heels by itself without anything more than a little rest. Hope this helps.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 20, 2004 - 11:33 am:
Thank you Rick, I appreciate your words of wisdom!
To clarify: since his hocks have been injected, I have not been on his back, just lunging to evaluate and get the juices going and gaining his trust.
He has actually not been in "work" for about 6 months. When I did ride him it was once in a while and I only asked for a walk...if he offered anything else, I did take it. I let it be his decision for the most part.
My thought is that he's been compensating for a long time... The accupunturist is also a DVM. I'm sure that if she finds nothing,she will not do anything.
However, you are right that I need to relax. He's doing great in comparison to how he was doing. I would say he's 90% back to normal, but he's still hitching. Habit? or another issue? This is my curiousity. I would hate to miss something ELSE and have him STILL hurt. Hence the evaluation.
On the massages...he gets one per month...he loves them and is trying to get me to do them, but my hands just aren't strong enough.
Again, thank you.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 21, 2004 - 6:02 am:
I do not believe horses continue to act lame because they develop a "habit". Too many horses have been lame for years yet when the lameness is blocked, they go completely sound. The only way to answer the question of "where" is with a well organized use of local analgesia.
DrO
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 21, 2004 - 10:06 am:
Thanks Dr. O,
He is SO MUCH BETTER! My friend (who used to train) rode him last night -- she can feel what I can't see as far as him not being right -- She said "he's back!!!"
He looked absolutely beautiful, I hadn't seen him that fluid in a LONGGGGG time. She said he was using his whole body again, not trying to escape. He was tentative, waiting for the pain, but when the pain didn't come, he was as happy as a clam! He's bright eyed again and his coat is getting shinier. He's also talking more often
Unfortunately I think he's been in more pain than he's been letting on
However, he still does hitch - she said though that she really had to concentrate to feel it - whereas before it was painfully obvious. Massage on Friday, accupuncturist *hopefully* this weekend. Another trip to the vet for his teeth and to check his toes sometime soon depending on the vet's schedule. I'll have the vet do another lameness exam as well unless it goes away with the massage.
At least NOW we're making progress!!!!
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Member:
Gwen
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 22, 2004 - 9:32 am:
Hello Aileen, It is so great to hear that your horse is feeling better! I know how horrible the guilt is when your horse is hurting and you don't know how to help. It sounds like the only nagging issue that remains is his "hitch". Well, when that word pops up in others' posts, my "radar" goes bananas! This "hitch" has been plaguing my horse and me for quite some time. I am not sure if you caught my postings entitled "unknown diagnosis". (I don't think you wrote anything in them.)
My horse was presenting with several symptoms all over his body including a "hitch" from a minor case of OCD. (A chiropractor also said that his sacro-- area was "a mess".) However, the fifth vet that looked at him broke it down and found his front feet to be a problem IN ADDITION to and SEPARATE from his hind end. His front end looks a ton better now as a result of interventions, so I think that we can now focus on the hind.
I guess to make a long story longer-the common threads I wanted to maybe discuss are the "hitch" and the diagnoses of DJD in both horses. I am having my horse x-rayed next week, but am curious to hear what you end up doing too! Good luck! Gwen
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 22, 2004 - 10:17 am:
Thank you Gwen,
I'll let you know what the accupuncturist says...I think she's coming sometime Saturday.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 24, 2004 - 2:31 pm:
Soooooo the accupuncturist says it may be his stifle...his hocks are very stiff. She treated both, just in case. She wants him on pasture rest for one month...she'll be back to reevaluate him in two weeks.
She gave me some stretches to do with him until then. She also told me to up his Cosequin to 6 scoops a day for a month. She wants him on 10,000 mgs of glucosamine.
She says its not a hitch...he's lame.
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Member:
Onehorse
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 24, 2004 - 4:18 pm:
Aileen:
I do believe in acupuncture, equine chiropractic treatment --- but it is very important that the people are certified and, hopefully, vets too. Also, check with your vet or Dr. O about the increased dosage ... that sounds like a lot of glucosimine -- but I'm no expert.
Also, you mentioned you're using Cosequin ... which is a brand name and perhaps the most expensive glucosimine supplement on the market. Considering how much you will be using in the next few weeks you may want to look at other brands which may save you some money.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 24, 2004 - 7:37 pm:
Hello Rick,
She is a vet...she was curious about the increased dosage as well, but after she looked at the loading dose (which is 6 scoops a day- 1800 mgs per scoop) she thought it would be all right. I would welcome any and all input on this. My other two vets are out of town today and tomorrow.
I'm afraid to switch him from cosequin...she offered another brand, but I told her I want to stick with what had worked for him before in order to get him through this. At the moment, money is no object (but I understand that if I don't watch it --- it may be sooner than later that money WILL be an object)...I just am tired of him hurting. He's tooooo good of a horse for this. She even fell for him in the 1.5 hours that she was with him. She said she REALLY wants to fix him...he's too sweet  -- that would be my boy.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 24, 2004 - 7:49 pm:
ps...she ruled out back/ hip issues...however he has atrophied on his right hind significantly... the other vet noticed this and said it was more than likely because of his hocks and not using himself correctly or naturally. So she also addressed this.
She also adjusted his neck...REALLY tight on the right.
pss...I was surprised how easily he took all those needles sticking him!!
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Monday, Jul 26, 2004 - 10:05 am:
Just a thought...I was talking to my friend last night (who uses the same lameness vet I do and has been there with me for every appointment)...I asked her if she remembered the vet saying anything about his stifle....she did not and said that he would have said something if he saw it.
Then I told her that Brave had a rodeo Friday night...headstands, twisties, you name it...she said it is highly possible he strained his stifle then.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 28, 2004 - 4:11 pm:
Spoke with my lameness vet last night. Told him the story about his rehab I had done with him, how he was going well, and then I told him about the rodeo two weeks after the injections. He said my horse is his own worst enemy. He had not seen anything related to the stifle (he's been working on my horse for 3 years now - knows him)
He said not to worry and follow the accupunturist's recommendations for the next 10 days. He said the 10,000 mgs of cosequin won't hurt him. If he doesn't come sound to call him.
My horse is not head bobbing lame, he is fiesty and full of himself. He's getting 14 hours turnout to 1 acre (right now - no hills). At night he's in his stall with a 24' x 18' run.
I didn't ask my vet about this...but what do you all think about those magnetic hock boots? Do they work?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 29, 2004 - 6:05 am:
The lack of science keeps me from spending money on them.
DrO
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 29, 2004 - 10:22 am:
Thanks Dr. O... somehow I knew you would say that
I know I've been sounding neurotic...sorry...I'm just tired of all this...As soon as I even think of putting him back to work, something else happens...patience, I know.
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Member:
Warwick
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 29, 2004 - 12:19 pm:
Hi Aileen
Just wanted to follow up on Dr O's comment about doing your own massage and your response that your hands aren't strong enough. I'm a certified equine sport therapist and massage is one of the tools I use when working on horses.
When you massage a horse you do not need strong hands! If your hands hurt after doing massage work, then you are doing it wrong.
The correct technique for massage is to use your body to exert pressure and not your hands. Your hands are merely an extension of your body. Place one foot in front of the other, with the front knee bent slightly and the back knee braced and let your entire body lean in towards the horse. This leg stance will allow you to rock your body forward and backward with each massage stroke instead of just using your hands. I hope this makes sense as I'm not the most eloquent writer!
I have found that most horses prefer a lighter touch (especially in the initial stages) as opposed to a heavier one. But let them be your guide to how much pressure they want you to use as they will move their bodies into you if they are wanting a stronger pressure.
Just keep in mind that massaging a horse should not exhaust you! Let your body do the work and your hands will thank you.
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Member:
Warwick
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 29, 2004 - 12:23 pm:
Quick afterthought! Think of a fencer's thrust/lunge position but not quite so exaggerated and it might help you visualize the massage position I described in my last post!
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 29, 2004 - 1:06 pm:
Thank you Sue, great input! My horse will appreciate it (;)) I'll give it a try tonight.
Perhaps you can help shed some light on something else for me. I'm supposed to raise his hind leg - hold -- and then guide him to stretch his hind leg behind him. He will not stretch it out...any tips on this?
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Member:
Warwick
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 29, 2004 - 2:16 pm:
I've found that not all horses are willing to have their legs stretched - be it foreleg/hindleg or protraction/retraction. Just because a horse doesn't allow you to stretch it, doesn't necessarily mean that there is a problem. Some horses just feel plain uncomfortable about having their limbs manipulated in that manner.
When doing stretches, it is very important to support the knee/hock and the pastern/hoof at the same time and not force the stretch. Keep your body parallel to the horse as this is a safer and more effective position for you. Don't lift the limb too high and gently and slowly ask for retraction or protraction depending on the stretch you are doing. And if the horse pulls the leg away, don't try to hang on to it! He'll win, you could easily end up in a wreck, and the horse will resist more the next time.
The key is to be smooth, supportive, steady and slow, and to keep the stretch low. Don't try to force more than the horse is willing to give. Just because you might think he should stretch "X" amount doesn't mean that the horse thinks (or can do) the same. Not all horses will stretch to the same degree and that does not necessarily mean there is a problem. Just like us, they are individuals and don't all have the same range of motion. I have baseline stretches on all my own horses and they are not all the same but they are all sound.
Just keep in mind that stretching is a good exercise but shouldn't be relied upon as an indicator of a problem.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 29, 2004 - 3:15 pm:
Thank you.
"Just keep in mind that stretching is a good exercise but shouldn't be relied upon as an indicator of a problem."
Yes...I actually know this  The accupuncturist told me the same thing. She also said not to force the stretch.
She was showing me how to do it and he stretched his leg out fully when she did it, but I haven't been able to get this stretch and thought I may be doing something wrong.
Your instructions helped me to understand this much better.
Thanks again!
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 1, 2004 - 12:25 am:
I had my horse massaged this morning. The masseuse (sp?) said that not only was it his stifle...he was sore EVERYWHERE. I usually walk and trot him for her before a massage, she didn't even want me to trot him; however, after 1.5 hours of working on my horse, he was no longer lame...in fact, he was moving beautifully!
She said every point on him was sore, his sacrum, hips, hamstrings, stifle, very sore in his left shoulder (interesting because he seemed to me to be hitching the right hind... compensation?), his back was extremely sore...he turned swayback as she worked on his back, then pressed into her motion to get more. Actually, he had placed his feet so he could lean into her motion the entire time.
Anyways...I finally got to RIDE!! For a short time, yes, but I was still able to get on his back knowing he didn't hurt...We are both very happy! He is moving and feeling amazingly well...and has the good and silly attitude to prove it
Life is good, because now you don't have to listen to my neurosys any more (knock wood!!)
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 1, 2004 - 10:55 am:
When are you going for YOUR massage?
Sounds like he has been more muscle sore than joint sore. My horse can get like that. Like your horse he has both front and back end issues. Heels and hocks. It is important to control or manage the source of the pain first with supportive shoeing, hock injections if necessary and joint supplements that work. Massage therapy can and does work wonders if these other issues are addressed first.
Glad to hear he is feeling better and that you are too!
Susan B.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 1, 2004 - 12:08 pm:
Hi Susan!
I got my massage when he was getting his ...he's the type that wiggles his nose when someone gets his "spot"....so I just turned around and let him do my back
Yes, it looks like I finally got the order right on how to address his issues! My previous farrier always set his shoes back so my horse was standing on his coffin bone --- this new farrier did not...I think that was a large part of it too.
I'm going to keep him on the 10,000 mg of Cosequin for a month, then *slowly* bring him down to find a maintenance level...I *think* that *may* have something to do with it...but who knows.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Friday, Aug 6, 2004 - 10:40 am:
Cantering through the pasture, jumping rocks, extended canter, slow collected jog, halt, looks magnificently, sees me then nickers and walks into his stall...I'm so happy for him!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It seems as though he hasn't been sound this long for about 8 months!! I could be wrong...but dang is he happy!
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 23, 2004 - 1:38 pm:
Update:
Short striding for the last week on lunge…always worked out of it
Last night, short striding, but with slight head bobbing- worked out of it and came sound – no head bobbing or short striding.
Normally, he will go long and low on his own – this week, only a few strides at a time.
After workout, bucking and galloping around – DOWNHILLS – obviously feeling good.
Progress:
Nice trot now after warm up…nicely forward and happy
Good canter…really getting under himself - two feet reach vs. 6 inches (6 inches was before hock injections) -- I get good canter from him right from the start.
No hitch in his hind end...at least that I can see.
Possible Causes:
Road founder from last winter – didn’t get the feet shod correctly until the last two months or so…has had two rounds of correct shoeing (I think its correct shoeing anyways)
Stifle
Sac – something – in his back or hip.
He "graveled" -- I think this is the term for a small rock getting into his white line - It came out in the middle of his hoof last month.
Ummmm...Just read your article on Gravels, Dr. O. I now wonder if this could be the root of his evils...and if he may have another one coming out....hmmmmm.
Unfortunately, his massuese was injured and is rehabbing right now. He will be getting a massage in two weeks, hopefully this will help. He hasn't had a massage since August 1.
I'm hoping this is also a fitness/strength issue.
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 23, 2004 - 3:33 pm:
Wow Aileen,
It is amazing what will show up or disappear in the hind end when you fix up the front end.
Perhaps the hind end soreness that seems to be higher up than the hocks i.e. stifles and sacroilliac is due to the fact that he has been compensating for some pain issues lower down. Bummer about the massuese .
I have talked to my equine massage therapist about soreness higher up and she said it is probably due to the hock issue as well as the way he moves himself to compensate..just a thought on that issue.
It is always a delicate "Balancing" act on the way we approach treatment and management of these arthritic and sometimes foot sore horses. Seems like we are forever "Fine Tuning" something to keep these guys comfy and happy. If my guy didn't bring me the joy that he does I don't think I would be doing that .
I hope I can give you some comfort in saying that my experience with these long standing and ongoing issues is that back discomfort can take a little longer to resolve than the immediate issue at hand.
You go girl and keep on "Keeping On"! In the meantime keep an EAGLE eye on that gravel.
My Best to You
Susan B.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 23, 2004 - 3:47 pm:
Hi Susan!
He's worth it...he makes me laugh every time I see him and he's got the cutest nicker!
Good to know about the back taking longer to resolve...hopefully that's all this is.
He was out of work for a couple of weeks...teeth. He was not accepting the bit when riding and would NOT relax for anything unless he was on the buckle. Went to the dentist and he had HIGH 11's...poor guy...another vote for the equine dentist - or at least a vet specializing in dentistry!
It was when I put him back to work that all this came about.
How's Laser?
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 23, 2004 - 6:24 pm:
Realization -- it's happening again:
My horse goes "off" four weeks after every shoeing. Was sound 2 to 3 days after shoeing for a couple of cycles...was completely sound after this last shoeing.
What is this a symptom of? navicular
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Friday, Sep 24, 2004 - 3:36 pm:
It could just mean that he just needs to be rebalanced every 4 weeks. Given the fact that you have had a new farrier working on him and this new farrier has had a chance to work with your horse and has become more familiar with his feet and other issues, I would venture to say that he is on the right track. If Brave was sound after this last shoeing without the 2 or 3 day adjustment period then it sounds like the farrier knows what he is doing....does this make sense .
You must remember that it takes about a year for a whole new hoof to grow in. If your farrier is giving him frequent attention, you might be able to get away with a 6 week period instead of 4 as time goes on.
To get a navicular diagnosis would mean well placed nerve blocks, X-Rays, ultrasound etc.etc. Even after all that you can still get nothing definative. Just a horse with caudal heel pain that needs frequent farrier attention. Sore heels can have many causes and Navicular isn't the only cause.
In my case it is underrun heels. The long toes are being kept in check as well the underrun heels by cutting them back. The shoes helps put the support back in the right place. We have a new introduction of "Luwex" rim pads that go between the shoe and the hoof. They are nice and flexible and can be reset a few times. Supposed to be good for horses like mine as they help reduce concussion as well. This could mean less jarring on the joints.
Laser has to go to the dentist in a couple of weeks as he has a couple of big hooks that need attention. They will be power floated as it is difficult to do those teeth with a hand float. Fall shots are due as well. I know he will be a little off and sore, so a few days rest and possibly a mild course of bute before he is asked to do anything seems about par for the course.
I know you won't give up on your buddy, just take each day as it comes. These guys are a little tougher to manage but if they are worth it......
If you have time to do some intensive reading, I have found that this site is by far the best. You get to share with a real live vet and real live people going through the same thing with their horses...but of course you already know that .
Check out the sister site www.horseshoes.com and get into the articles and publications section. More good information there too.
Sorry this got so long 
Best to you and thanks for updates,
Susan B.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Sep 24, 2004 - 6:04 pm:
Susan's post above is very good. Aileen, as the toe gets longer more stress is put in the navicular region by the flexor tendon at break over. This is a classic history associated with diseases of the navicular region, for more see Equine Diseases » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Topic Navicular Disease / SynDrOme.
DrO
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Member:
Paul303
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 25, 2004 - 2:26 am:
Aileen: I seem to remember remarking to someone a couple months ago ( so stop me if you've heard this before...), that I noticed an odd "hitch" in my ( then 18month old )QH filly on the lunge line to the right. Her toes seemed to grow faster than her heels....it bothered me terribly, but no one else could see it ( including the blacksmith ). They told me to stop worrying so much. Well, she was 24 on May 2nd - and was diagnosed with navicular 20 yrs. ago. Would she have had a better life had I persued it way back when? In this case, I doubt it. Not as much was understood about it as is understood today...and the learning continues. As Susan and Dr.O said, go the whole 9 yards and try to get a definitive diagnosis. QUALITY x-rays. the nerve blocks, oral history, and clinical exam.....whatever. Because if it IS navicular, it CAN be managed. But the sooner you get started, the better. Oh....by the way, should it be navicular, get ready to begin a very deep, meaningful relationship with your farrier.....you'll be spending a lot of time with him every month......
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Monday, Sep 27, 2004 - 10:22 am:
Hi Susan,
The vet wants him reshod every 5 weeks, but the poor guy has nail holes for DAYS! So the farrier is trying 6 weeks this time to let the foot grow out...hopefully.
AND, someone suggested to me to just take the shoes off....ummmmmmmm that's when this started!
On the nav...He has not once been sore in his heels...just his toes. The last xrays taken --with shoes on, to verify the shoeing was correct -- did not show the vet that he had signs of nav...but we both know the shoes need to be off for that to be sure.
I will NEVER give up on this guy...he's my one and only prince...I've got a princess too - but she's showing to be only EASY (;))))) -- Knock wood!!
Hi Dr. O,
I have a vet coming out tonight for shots and a lameness exam for my guy. I had my friend - who's fairly knowledgable come and look at him...she said she saw nothing up front that would cause him to headbob. That's good news...so even if this is a classic history for nav...is there hope it could be something else?
I'll have the vet check him for heel pain - to this date, he's only been sore in his toes -- and to see where he hurts. Here's hoping he stays off until the vet gets there tonight.
Elizabeth, thanks so much for your encouraging post. It helps to know it can be managed.
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Monday, Sep 27, 2004 - 10:47 am:
Elizabeth, and Aileen, I too have a horse that has to 'be managed' shod every 4 weeks.. the angles start to change and he starts to be tender , no head bob, but shortens his stride.. and the relationship I have with the farrier, like Elizabeth noted is very ''close'' as well as anyone in his family that answers the phone when I call about what ever regarding this horse...
hang in there.. sometimes this stuff takes time to figure out what the heck is going on...
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted the good ones!
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Monday, Sep 27, 2004 - 11:43 am:
Thank you Ann...what do you do about all the nail holes? My farrier said not to put anything on them...I would think that keratex would be good...but I'm listening to my farrier.
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Monday, Sep 27, 2004 - 5:43 pm:
Aileen, actually the nail holes are not an issue.. so I do nothing.. this horse has great hoof wall, shape , size.. its just bad luck on the navicular .. i would not worry about the extra holes, get the boy sound is of more importance now..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted the good ones!
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Monday, Sep 27, 2004 - 6:28 pm:
Thanks Ann. My farrier says my horse has great feet too...he just doesn't want to weaken the hoof wall....hence the longer shoeing period.
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Member:
Onehorse
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Posted on Monday, Sep 27, 2004 - 7:40 pm:
Ann,
Didn't you mean to say that "...on the second day He painted the good ones PALOMINO GOLD!"???????
Yeah, I'm sure you did.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Sep 27, 2004 - 9:52 pm:
Hello Aileen,
Could this be something else..????! Your profile says you have been here for 2 years and I know you have been here a lot longer. I only know what you have told me of course the whole world is open.
But...if your horse if fine following a good trim stays sound for weeks and then after that starts growing bilaterally shorter and shorter as time go on until trimmed again and is fine for another 4 weeks and this happens time after time: I don't anything else that behaves this way regularly.
DrO
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 28, 2004 - 9:56 am:
<<<>>>>
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 28, 2004 - 10:34 am:
Update:
The vet came out last night...of course he wasn't off at all...go figure. He was full of beans actually. I still asked him to use hoof testers on him. On his right front he gave a very slight reaction to testers on his heel...but no reaction to his toes at all.
Nothing at all on the left front - heels OR toes. Then he looked at his hind feet. The left hind is at only 53% - he has NO heel!!
The right hind was at 55% as were the front feet. Remember he's barefoot behind. He was shod at the beginning of September...28 days and now NO heel .... The vet said on his left hind, his leg was almost perfectly straight...without any heel, his pasturn was sitting dangerously low - so wedge pad - or open pad to bring up his heel to hopefully fix him.
The vet said he saw no signs of navicular...he doesn't have nav conformation...he said there are other things going on here. I asked him if the heel would cause him to go off and to raise his head and hollow his back under saddle...he said most definately. He also said that "no heel would cause multiple problems in his hind end - exacerbate his hock situation, etc.
So my farrier is calling him this morning and he will hopefully come out this Saturday to put back shoes on him. Vet said NO work until shoes are on.
Why didn't I SEE this!! I'm sick and tired of hurting my horse!  He turned and looked and nuzzled me as the vet was telling me what to do...like my horse was saying..well it's about time!
Better yet...why didn't my farrier see this?...who I pay TOP DOLLAR for to ensure my horses feet are taken care of.
ok...vent over
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 28, 2004 - 10:43 am:
Thanks Dr. O, I'm going to chat with my lameness vet in the next few weeks -- they are all inundated with WNV calls right now -- and ask him about xrays before the next shoeing cycle. He didn't seem to be too concerned about the nav either - and he saw xrays - albeit bad xrays - and he did xrays with the shoes on.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 28, 2004 - 4:15 pm:
btw, This is the first time the cycle has changed since last winter...with him coming sound BEFORE the next farrier appointment...perhaps because we extended the shoeing period...and perhaps because he was barefoot behind.
Regardless, I hope this fixes him.
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 29, 2004 - 12:22 pm:
It is interesting to note what your vet said about the low heels in the hind end exacerbating the hock problems.
As you know all too well, I am having the same kind of problems with my gelding. The introduction of shoes on his hind end has been discussed but never implemented....yet.
Let us know how the hind shoes workout for you and Brave.
Fingers and hooves crossed
Susan B.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 29, 2004 - 2:47 pm:
Hi Susan,
Yes, low heels, leading to low -- horizontal! -- pasterns which ends up straightening his leg, which of course includes his hock...I have to wonder if this has been the issue this entire year. We shall find out.
Thanks so much for your help!
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Monday, Oct 4, 2004 - 2:28 pm:
With the hind shoes on....He's 99% sound...not perfectly sound...but he may never be again. He warmed up out of it in less than a minute.
I have myself a HAPPY guy so far at least...should have never kept his back shoes off
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Monday, Oct 4, 2004 - 2:52 pm:
Way to go Aileen!
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Monday, Oct 4, 2004 - 3:48 pm:
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 5, 2004 - 7:14 am:
Congrats on getting this thing figured out Aileen.
DrO
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 5, 2004 - 10:23 am:
Thanks Dr. O...here he is, nice and comfortable once again at the trot
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 1, 2004 - 11:39 am:
Hello all, just an update.
My horse had a vet visit...there was still something not quite right...originally had him out to ensure there was no navicular worries. After seeing the horse, the vet said as of right now, there is no reason to spend the money on xrays etc, he feels (as does every other vet - 3 total) that Brave is not a navicular type horse. He said not to rule it out, but we'll address the obvious issues (hock/back) and go from there.
This vet is a combo conventional/holistic vet.
I trotted him out, the vet did a lh flexion, and he said he had to REALLY look to find a positive. But grade 1. He felt with his history, and because Brave was extremely sensitive on the inside of his hock (it's been COLD up here), it was consistent with the DJD.
However, He said that Brave was extremely out of line - highly possible Brave was compensating in his back for the hock pain - so he did chiropractic adjustments to his whole spine, plus accupunture with Vitamin B12 shots in the needles.
This was just last night, so we'll see if he's made improvement...feels better, etc.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 2, 2004 - 7:34 am:
Hello Aileen,
what does this mean "out of line" and what did he adjust that was out of line? If he is suggesting the spine is flexed laterally do to this lameness issue, I have seen hundreds of horses with long term hind limb lamenesses that did not flex their spine. Next time he is "out of line" I would love to have a picture of this demonstrating what is meant as I have never made such a dianosis.
Delighted to hear your horse has remained sound.
DrO
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 2, 2004 - 10:46 am:
I'll try to get a picture when he comes back in 3 weeks to do a follow up.
Out of line are my words (;)
Background...He has worked on 5 horses (whose owners I know) and he comes highly recommended, otherwise I would not have had him see Brave. He is highly regarded (I had asked at feed stores, etc about this vet) as to his dental abilities and his chiropractic abilities to help the horse.
He has worked on a horse boarded at my barn. While I didn't see this horses' initial reaction to his initial examination, on his second visit, the horse barely reacted. My horse on the other hand, practically had a convulsion.
Brave had multiple restrictions: withers, lower lumbar, SAR, LPI, APR, C5-6 BL/R.
What this means I have no idea. I'll let you know how he feels in a couple of days.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 2, 2004 - 7:45 pm:
I don't either Aileen, thanks for the update.
DrO
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 4, 2004 - 10:15 am:
Update. Massage yesterday. He had very few issues, while it usually takes her 1.5 hours to massage him. It only took her 45 minutes. He moved out quite well, but the right shoulder was hindering him a bit, not lame or short...just sort of ouchy.
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