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| Discussion on Weight loss... a real head scratcher??? | |
| Author | Message |
| Member: Jcsmoon |
Posted on Monday, Apr 5, 2004 - 11:22 pm: Dr. O and Co.I have a 21-ish appy gelding that has developed a weight loss issue over the last few months. It appears to be linked to his unwillingness to consume his normal amount of hay. He has reciently, in the last month, had his teeth done which the vet felt were not bad enough to reasonably cause the problem. He has been wormed and Power Packed. The vet check carefully for any tooth problems (rotten or loose molars). He will willingly chow down on fresh grass and on alfalfa pellets but will barely touch grass hay or baled alfalfa. He is herd boss, therefore has the choice of all the hay piles. He still maintains the level of activity in the pasture that he has had, but has long been suspected to be early stage cushnoid, though that should not make him turn his nose up at hay. I have tried diffrent hays to no avail. We are scheduled to run a full pannel on him this week just to see if something shows up. I have pulled the grass from him for a week to see if he is just pulling my leg to get more of the "horsey good stuff". Anybody got any ideas on why he would refuse hay? Any suggestions are appreciated.... -Emily |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Tuesday, Apr 6, 2004 - 10:11 am: If there is pasture he may just prefer it to the hay and if so there may be a medical cause for the weight loss and certainly Cushingoid Disease is at the top of the list. You have taken the first step I would recommend a panel looking for signs of systemic disease.If this is not medical the most common reasons I can think of for horses to not eat well are palatability issues and/or changes in the horses environment. Has this horse recently lost a pasture buddy or is there some change that has him distracted? DrO |
| Member: Jcsmoon |
Posted on Thursday, Apr 8, 2004 - 9:16 pm: This is a "No" on all accounts.The herd does not have regular access to pasture, and what little they do is a 5-horse barren waste land. There has been no disruptions to his life, nor is he the type to be rattled by change. A few days ago he broke the fence down to get to our lawn, not a typical behavior for him but know he was just hungry dispite all the hay avalible. He has been willingly eating hay pellets with senior feed but I see today that he did not finish his morning ration, which is a new concerning development. On all other accounts he does not show signs of illness, he just doesn't want to eat. We have kept his weight up to a safe range with the hay pellets & oil but I am concerned as to why a horse that is known for eating ANYTHING would sundenly become so picky. I am still waiting for the blood work results, hopefully that will give us something to chase. I know Cushings can effect weight but I did not believe that it occured secondary to appetite loss? |
| Member: Jcsmoon |
Posted on Thursday, Apr 8, 2004 - 10:22 pm: Got some word on blood tests.Fibrinogen - elevated Lymphocytes - slightly elevated calcium - elevated phosphorous - slightly low I will pick up the actual lab work tomorrow but this was the readers digest version. My vet at this point has some concerns about lymphoma. We will be putting him on a three day course of banamine to see if that makes a diffrence. In a week we will recheck his blood work. I have to agree with my vet that this may be the "begining of the end" as he has shown a noticeable decline that has progressed over the last year. Cancer could very well the culprit. Any thoughts on this Dr O? |
| Member: Jcsmoon |
Posted on Friday, Apr 9, 2004 - 4:46 pm: Here are the results of the blood, I was wrong on Lymphocytes (I was haveing a senior moment)but here are the ones out of range:Lymph 1410 L Glucose Plasma 107 H Sodium 131 L Chloride 97 L Anion Gap 4 L Calcium 23.5 H *test verified by dilution Phos 1.4 L *Test verified by repeat Osmolality Calc 261 L AST 200 L Fibrinogen 400 *range 100-400 +/- 50 semiquant. Here are a few questions... If the horse has been off his feed (intake at about 25% normal) why would his plasma gluc be high and serum gluc be in normal range? Shouldn't he be more on the low normal end here considering the blood was drawn 6 hours since his last meal? How quickly would the dietary impact of calcium levels clear from the blood given reduced food intake? and is it reasonable to think this calcium level could be caused by diet? |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Friday, Apr 9, 2004 - 10:55 pm: What are the normals (or units) for this lab Emily cause unless they are using some odd units the Ca is high enought that I am not sure a level of Ca this high is compatable with life. If this is truly double normal I would have the test rerun. If it is real there are several types of cancer in horses associated with persistant hypercalcemia and reports of hyperparathyroidism.The body strives to maintain blood sugar levels through conversion of stored enery to glucose, so this is not surprising even in a horse off his feed as long as the condition remains better than poor. DrO |
| Member: Jcsmoon |
Posted on Saturday, Apr 10, 2004 - 5:11 pm: Well with the way he is acting I am sure it is not very conducive to life. This horse is known for being very stoic so I am certian some is terribly wrong. Today he will only eat carrots and will sip watter, and spend short periods eating grass. Things are not looking good.From the lab verbatim: Calcium 23.5 H mg/dl range: 10.0-13.6 *Test varified on dilution Phosphorus 1.4 L mg/dl range:1.7-4.8 *Test verified by repeat analysis We plan to rerun the labs by this coming friday, provideing nothing radically changes in the mean time. Though knowing this horse and gaugeing how he deals with pain I wonder if we will make it that long. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Sunday, Apr 11, 2004 - 10:49 pm: I went and looked and we do not have an article on equine hyperparathyroidism. I have not seen a case Emily and when I return to my office on Thursday I would be glad to research it for you. The cases of carcinoma are frequently internal and difficult to diagnose. Rectal and belly tap with cytology are usually the first steps.DrO |
| Member: Jcsmoon |
Posted on Monday, Apr 12, 2004 - 9:08 am: From all the info on doccumented types/locations of cancer that I read this weekend I found that only a few are known to shed cells that could be identified in an abdominocentisis.Thoric Lymphosacroma, Gatsrointestional Squamous Cell Carcinoma, and Neoplasia of the Hemolymphatic System (typically liver, spleen, kidney and GI track) were identified as haveing hypercalcalceamia and an indicator. I also found that hypercalceamia was also an indicator in renal falure in some cases, but not well understood. Is this ruled out at this point because there is an abscence other blood chem to support it? The horse condition at this point fluxuates. Last night he left the grass and wanted to eat his grain, which he has not touched in 3 days. He will still eat carrots and took a mouthfull of hay but no more. He is still very mobile and wants to be with the herd. Though he has small bursts of energy you can see he is not himself. I will be talking again with my vet today to decide when to take the next round of blood work. I will probably not opt to do extensive diagnostic testing at this point as I see no sence in subjecting him to further discomfort. Through my reading I have seen the term Hyperparathyroidism, yet I don't feel like I have a good understanding of it's meaning, would you explain.. briefly? In your experience at what level does calcium elevation become a significant finding? |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Monday, Apr 12, 2004 - 9:24 am: Right, no elevation in the BUN and Cr, standard tests rules it out. Also the Ca has never been this elevated in renal failure. Though centesis is a low percentage test it is the only quick and easy test and if positive conclusive.There is no magic levels Emily but whatever that number may be you have exceeded it long ago. The parathyroids are small glands on the thyroid that are responsible for calcium and phosphorous regulation. The hormone effects both bone overturn and the excretion (decreased calcium increased phosphorous) through the kidneys. Several other causes of hypercalcemia have occurred to me check out, nutritional causes do to Ca/P imbalance and vitamin D toxicosis. DrO |
| Member: Jcsmoon |
Posted on Monday, Apr 12, 2004 - 10:57 am: Could a level this high be from a dietary source? I have had my horses on Alfalfa for about 4 months, specifically a clean medium grade with higher stem content for roughage. The only other thing they recieve is a broad spectrum vit/min suppliment and a bit of oil. He is on the identical diet as the other horses yet they have had no changes in health; Should I be pulling blood on one of them for comparison?Also, I thought Vit D was obtained/produced through sunlight, how else or how might this reach a toxic level? |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Tuesday, Apr 13, 2004 - 6:49 pm: The mechanism is not simply a dietary excess. A imbalance of Ca and P induces a secondary hyperparathyroidism, which then induces the very high levels as outlined above. VitD toxicosis is from over supplementation. Unless the supplement has unusual levels of offending agents and since the other horses are doing well, the diet is unlikely to be the cause.DrO |
| Member: Jcsmoon |
Posted on Wednesday, Apr 14, 2004 - 10:05 am: Thank you. As of today he is feeling better than last week. Sunday night he perked up and began to pick at his hay and grain again. He has more bursts of energy in the pasture and feels well enough to nicker for food. He still is not by any means 100%. He likes to have grass time but gets visibly tired after about 30-40 minutes of hand grazeing and wants to go back to the padock. Basically he is acting like a human cancer patient, good days and bad days. We have decided to wait one more week to rerun the blood work.Do you have any information or experience on time frames of progression? Some of the stuff that I have read primarily indicates 30 days from identification of symptoms for most types of cancer with only one type being up to 6 months. In the case of hypercalceamia associated with neoplasia would it be expected that the calcium levels will remain high, or could they fluxuate? |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Thursday, Apr 15, 2004 - 7:10 am: The cases I have seen remained high and yes progression is pretty quick. But the course of these cancers is variable depending on the individual cancer and the tissue involved, I would not put a particular time course on a particular case.DrO |
| Member: Jcsmoon |
Posted on Thursday, Apr 15, 2004 - 10:51 am: Thanks Dr O. I will keep HA posted on the developments here. At this point we are watching him closely for his level of discomfort. Provideing the results of the follow up blood work come back the same as the first set we will probably be euthanising him to spare him the pain of the progression. The primary decision then will be if we want to have a necropsy done. Since I start applying to Vet schools in the coming fall I know I will have to get used to this, I am just not sure if I need my first horse necropsy to have the emotional attachment.Obviously if we found a tumor that would tell us, but if it is in the lymphatic system would that necessarily present a source mass? Can cancer start there? |
| Member: Jcsmoon |
Posted on Thursday, Apr 15, 2004 - 9:24 pm: Just one more question...I have been reading up and this info was presented by Lancet Laboratories regarding human hyperparathyroidism... "In hypercalceamia due to primary hyperparathyroidism or to ectopic PTH production (pseudohyperparathyroidism), the majority of patients have elevated PTH levels. By contrast, in hypercalceamia due to malignancy or other causes, the concentration of PTH in circulation is low or within normal reference range limits." https://www.lancet.co.za/site/tests_det.asp?alph=p&TestId=238 Are you aware if this would also be the case in horses? Can it, or would it even be helpful to test for? |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Friday, Apr 16, 2004 - 8:42 am: One of the mechanisms of hypercalcemia of neoplasia is the release of a parathyroid like hormone. Some of these react as a positive on some PTH tests (J Am Vet Med Assoc. 1994 Jun 15;204(12):1930-3). However recent tests with some of the newer and better tools indicates they are useful in horses (Equine Vet J. 2003 May;35(3):291-5). The problem is a lack of research and information in horses about these diseases Emily. The PTH test would be fascinating but the results would have to be intrepreted in light of having well established normals at the lab, the particular test run, and the paucity of current information on the meaning of such a tests in the horse.DrO |
| Member: Jcsmoon |
Posted on Monday, Apr 19, 2004 - 5:04 pm: Just an update, I am checking onto the acedemic benefit of haveing the PTH level looked at. Ohio and Michigan University both run PTH and PTHrP in horses, Michigan more commonly running it. I am interacting with Ohio now about it and will keep you updated. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Tuesday, Apr 20, 2004 - 7:31 am: Super Emily, let us know what you find out.DrO |
| Member: Jcsmoon |
Posted on Tuesday, Apr 20, 2004 - 7:58 pm: Apearently PTHrP is used for rule out at some universities. As I understand, hypercalceamia due to malignacies is much less common than cases due to cronic renal failure (CRF). CRF, as you stated before, can typically be identified by other changes in blood chemistry so therefore malignancy is ruled out before the PTH and PTrP tests.I will say the comparitive costs of this blood test pale in comparision to trying to ultrasound, palp, biopsy, belly tap, and general gold digging to find a tumor. Once I am home I will post up the email that had some intersting info on this from Dr Toribio at Ohio St U. He has offered to run the PTHrP for me and has requested to be kept in the loop on this case. If anything this will be interesting to see the outcome and perhaps add to this thread. I will also be getting the second set of blood work by thrusday. |
| Member: Jcsmoon |
Posted on Wednesday, Apr 21, 2004 - 1:45 am: The second set of blood work is in, out of range values:Fibrinogen 300 mg/dl (100-400) Glucose Plasma 105 H mg/dl (60-100) Potassium 6.0 H meq/l (2.4-4.7) Carbon Dioxide 34 H meq/l (20-32) Anion Gap 1 L (5-16) Calcium 19.0 H mg/dl (10-13.6) *verified on dilution AST 201 L (250-550) |
| Member: Jcsmoon |
Posted on Wednesday, Apr 21, 2004 - 1:55 am: Here are the emails that are of particular interst to this thread:Email 4/20/04 "Hi Emily Some of your abnormal lab findings are consistent with chronic Renal Failure (CRF). How were the creatinine/BUN/potassium concentrations? [see follow up email below] This is important because those values are critical to differentiate between CRF and humoral hypercalcemia of malignancy (HHM), which is also a possibility. Both high PTH or PTHrP result in hypercalcemia and hypophosphatemia. The difference is that in HHM, PTH concentrations are very low and PTHrP high. Borrowing information from humans/small animals may not apply for PTH in horses. This can be confusing In my experience, in contrast to humans/small animals with CRF, in which there is an increase in PTH concentrations from removing the negative feedback from vitamin D (which inhibits parathyroid cell function), horses with CRF in general have normal or below normal PTH concentrations. The reason, I believe, is because horses are unique with regard to calcium regulation. They absorb up to 70% of the calcium in their diet, most of which must be eliminated. Nature took care of this by giving horses kidneys with the ability to eliminate large amounts of calcium. Thus, if the kidney is not working properly, guess what? They develop hypercalcemia. Hypophosphatemia is also a consistent finding associated with hyponatremia. There is a good description on equine calcium regulation in the new Equine Internal Medicine-2nd edition by Drs. Reed/Sellon/Bayly, page 1295. You can send me serum and urine samples (taken at the same time) on dry ice and I will run the PTH/PTHrP together with ionized calcium, but I cannot tell you when because as I mentioned in the previous email, we don't do this on the routine basis (research purposes). If you want to know sooner, then send the samples to Michigan State University Diagnostic Lab. If I have to pick one to measure it would be PTHrP. With regard to the neurological signs, there are different possibilities, which may be related to your hypercalcemia (i.e malignancy, uremia) or not. Next time you do blood work, send me the information. Let me know if I can be of any help Ramiro -- Ramiro E. Toribio, DVM, MS, PhD, DACVIM College of Veterinary Medicine The Ohio State University" Follow up 4/20/04 "Hi Emily Those findings are not consistent with CRF but rather with other conditions (hyperparathyroidism or hypercalcemia of malignancy) By the way, being curious is good. That makes good clinicians. It can also make some holes in your pocket $$. Like I said, I can run some of those tests, but time might be a proble. I will be running PTHrP in around 2 weeks. Keep in touch and any decision that you make with this horse let me know Ramiro" |
| Member: Jcsmoon |
Posted on Friday, Apr 23, 2004 - 2:04 pm: Well, sadly my samples did not arrive frozen to the Ohio lab, though they were able to run ionized calcium and found that it was twice the normal accepted level. Dr Toribio is now really intrigued and wants additional samples to run other tests and a new one for the PTHrP next week. There is now some talk about Cushing’s though I was not sure if this was just in reference to the neuro signs or included the hypercalceamia.The horse has been fairly stable over the last week. He will eat limited amounts of senior feed, oil and fresh grass. He still is mobile but has started to display some uncharacteristic excitability |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Sunday, Apr 25, 2004 - 10:30 am: Bummer. I do not know of any reports that associate hypercalcemia with Cushings.DrO |
| Member: Jcsmoon |
Posted on Monday, Apr 26, 2004 - 10:27 am: Thanks I did not think so but I am just starting to get better at understanding Dr. Toribio over the phone, he has a thick acent.I am shipping new samples today and he will be running them this week I believe. Here is the first set of labs from him: Na+ 133.7 mmol/L K+ 4.47 mmol/L Mg++ 0.70 mmol/L Ca++ 11.89 mg/dL pH 7.80 nMg++ 0.79 mmol/L nCa++ 14.49 mg/dL This is just a little printout slip and no ranges are given but he indicated over the phone that iniozed calcium was twice what it should be. So let me think this out, not only is his body allowing more calcium into the blood stream instead of passing it out the kidneys, but he is also processing too much calcium. If he is not consumeing very much food where is he getting it from? his bones? |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Tuesday, Apr 27, 2004 - 9:45 am: The blood calcium level is the result of what is added to the blood, mainly dietary intake and bone resorption, minus what is taken out, mainly excretion from the kidney and bone building. PTH (and PTHrP's) both increase bone resorption and decrease Ca excretion from the kidneys resulting in increasing blood calcium.DrO |
| Member: Jcsmoon |
Posted on Tuesday, Apr 27, 2004 - 10:50 am: In the slip he faxed [from above] there seems to be two different forms of calcium being measured, are these different then the form inwhich it is ingested and/or from the bones?Hmmm, I think I need to track down that text Dr Toribio spoke of or I will pester the heck out you with nit-pick questions Dr O... Well at least you know you are loved and respected :0) The new samples should be there right about now, hopefully still frozen! |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Wednesday, Apr 28, 2004 - 8:00 am: I tried to decipher above but the varying units (why is Mg in different units than than Ca?) and the unfamiliar abbreviations made it difficult for me to make head or tails of the numbers. We need the normals for the lab.DrO |
| Member: Jcsmoon |
Posted on Wednesday, Apr 28, 2004 - 6:11 pm: I thought the units were odd too, but I guess I could just convert them from millimoles to milligrams with the molecular weight easy enough.I will ask him if he has some norms for the lab when I talk to him this week. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Thursday, Apr 29, 2004 - 7:36 am: I was wondering if it was a typo. You could do the math but we still are left with the question of what is the normal for this lab. As the Dr. alludes to above there are a number of different ways to measure these things each resulting in different numbers.DrO |
| Member: Jcsmoon |
Posted on Thursday, Apr 29, 2004 - 6:45 pm: Here is the answer to that from Dr. Toribio's most recient email."...With regard to your questions 1-yes, we have normals for those values. Calcium is mean in healthy horses is 6.6±0.3 mg/dL (range 6 to 7 mg/dL). For Mg, in general like it to be between 0.46 to 0.70 mmol/L. 2-With regard to units is a "lab thing".Basically is the same. Ca in mg/dl = Ca in mmol/L x 4. For K and Na, mEq/L = mmol/L Ramiro" He also said they have run the PTH and PTHrP tests, just waiting on the results from a radioactive test or something. The horse is currently at a reasonably comfortable condition, eating 5-6 small grain meals a day, 1 cup of oil, 1.5 hrs on lush lawn grass, and some days he might eat up to 3 lbs of hay, though not often. He has stableized his weight loss and will interact with the herd, though still is not himself. |
| Member: Jcsmoon |
Posted on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 8:19 pm: So here is the latest update. The results are back and were not what Dr Toribio expected. The PTHrP was in the high end of the normal range and the PTH was elevated which he feels suggests Hyperparathyroidisim and not malignancy as origionaly suspected.In th mean time the horse has improved to the point that he is eating most of his rations, though still not with the same zest he is known for. He has gained back some of the weight he lost and is much more alert. We have opted to hold off putting him down for now as he seems reasonably comfortable. Now I need to learn about hyperparathyroidism, any thoughts Dr O? |
| Member: Cowgrl |
Posted on Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 4:18 pm: Hi Emily, I have been reading your travails with the weight loss issues with interest. I too have an older appy gelding that has lost quite a bit of weight in the last year. He doesn't have too much interest in his hay and leaves most of it in his manger but loves his senior grain of which he's receiving 4 quarts a day, 1/2 quart of Omolene, and one quart of alfalfa pellets, plus joint supplements. I've tried going the oil route but he hates it and will leave his feed if it's added. We have a small pasture that he is turned out on every other day or so which he enjoys. Lately he stands around with his head at half mast which makes me think he may have some back pain or other discomfort. We feed a medium quality timothy that the rest of the horses enjoy and clean up. Also, this horse is not interested in his alfalfa cubes that we tried. He'll eat a little but not much. And, I noticed that he has not touched his salt/mineral block in so long it has a thick coating of dust on it.Dr.O. Do you think I should have the same panel done on him as Emily? I'm really getting concerned about this boy. It seemed that all at once he started going down hill. You asked whether Emily's horse lost a pasture buddy and I have to say yes to that. Last summer we had to put down one of our horses that was the herd boss (old age). Then this winter I gave away an appy mare that this horse was very attached to. He still has his QH buddy but he does seem to be kind of unhappy. Any ideas? BTW He's going to the vet Saturday for mouth work. Thanks Doc and Emily |
| Member: Jcsmoon |
Posted on Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 6:52 pm: Holly-If he is off kilter your vet may suggest a CBC. The PTH and PTHrP that I had done, that I am aware of, are only really only being done in in a couple of Universities on a regular basis. I know that U of Michigan is one and UC Davis may be the other. As I found out, the prep on these samples is crutial. But if your vet wants a CBC then that is were we started and it would probably be the most logical place. -Emily |
| Member: Jcsmoon |
Posted on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 12:00 am: Here is the latest email from Dr Toribio. It does contain some surpriseing suggestions for diet but I believe where we are at at this point is that it is a waiting game.My only question at this point is preparations for necrotic samples of the parathyroid. There seems to be some reported difficulty is locateing the tissue? Any thoughts DrO? "There are 2 cases of primary HPT. One well documented and the other, no good, as the authors did not find the parathyroid gland to document adenoma or hyperplasia. Peauroi JR, Fisher DJ, Mohr FC, Vivrette SL. Primary hyperparathyroidism caused by a functional parathyroid adenoma in a horse. J Am Vet Med Assoc. 1998 Jun 15;212(12):1915-8. Frank N, Hawkins JF, Couetil LL, Raymond JT. Primary hyperparathyroidism with osteodystrophia fibrosa of the facial bones in a pony. J Am Vet Med Assoc. 1998 Jan 1;212(1):84-6. I believe that the case by Dr. Sojka is of primary hypoparathyroidism. It is very difficult for me to believe that the hypercalcemia in Diablo is from renal disease. I can speculate of a renal condition (with normal creatinine and BUN) that can result in high PTH concentrations, but it would be just that, speculation. It is important to keep in mind that the increase in calcium concentrations can be from increased renal reabsorption of calcium (can be evaluated, as I stated early on, by measuring calcium in the urine at the same time in serum, together with creatinine concentrations) and from increased bone resorption (no good), which may predispose him for lameness and fractures. Thus, it is important to give him good quality hay and alfalfa (this may be controversial to some people as alfalfa is rich in calcium). The oil is fine, but do not exceed 20% if his needs from oil. He can also get some sweet feed, unless contraindicated by someone because of risk of laminitis/Cushing's disease. With regard to your other horses, if they are getting a well-balanced diet it is unlikely to be diet related. As it is well known, Ca:P ratio > 1.5:1. I would have expected this horse to be normophosphatemic-hyperphosphatemic if that was a high phosphorus diet. Diet should be a concern if you have some plants/weeds with high oxalates. I wrote a chapter in the Equine Internal Medicine 2nd Edition (Reed/Sellon/Bayly) 2004. describing calcium metabolism/regulation in horses during health and disease, if you have access to this book. Ramiro" |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 7:17 am: Emily, with normal Cr you can rule out renal disease in my opinion. Since your previous post I have been trying to garner information on the treatment of hyperparathyroidism in horses, and it just isn't out there. Perhaps we need to turn to other species for suggestions but I too saw that reference that suggests that surgury may not be a viable option. I see the logic in a high calcium diet: try and minimize the loss of calcium from the bone.Holly, though Emily's problem is unlikely you should have a good physical exam done and let that direct the testing that is to be done. DrO |
| Member: Jcsmoon |
Posted on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 2:12 pm: Dr Ramiro has offered to evaluate the parathroid glands, provideing we can locate them at necropsy. He told me horses have 4 of them and their location varries?????As to treatment I have read in two places about surgical removal of affected glands though I find this confuseing if there is only one or two cases doccumented, not that I am considering this as an option. I have had a long talk with my husband about the increasing possibility that we may come home to find Diablo with a broken leg (this is his baby). In another month we will rerun the labs here and see to where he is at. So what I am hearing is that it is the secondary damaged caused to the body by the high ionized calcium (and its sources)that is kicker here. I have been facinated at how the calcium regulation thing works in horses. Do you know of any good refrences on horse anatomy that would explain why the location of the parathyroid would vary? |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 7:50 am: The problem is the parathyroids are small, vary in their position on the thyroid, and embedded in the fibrous capsule surrounding the thyroid.DrO |
| Member: Jcsmoon |
Posted on Sunday, Jun 6, 2004 - 3:27 pm: Well the update on the Appy... two nights ago we sat in the pasture saying our goodbyes to him, this morning he is hollering at me to hurry up with the hay...My husband went out feed and found him in a violent colic, throwing himself down in the barn ally, growning, no gut sounds etc. I called our vet and had a brief converstation that was just a confirmation that this was the end and determine if he (the vet) could make it out to euthanize in time or try to treat the colic. I opted to have him hold off heading out while I gave the horse the one dose of oral Banamine to see if he responded. I gave the banamine, and for 15 min the horse layed flat out, eyes fixed and dialated, shallow intermitand breaths, and generally looking like he was pretty much dead. THEN he sits up, guts makes a huge gurgle and lets go with a huge fart. A couple more of those and up he gets and promptly marches to his stall and demands his dinner. Go figure.... He is still holding his own though does require more feed that normal to keep his weight. We know there is still something off but he seems generally comfortable still. This month I will rerun the blood to check Ca levels again. |
| Member: Hwood |
Posted on Sunday, Jun 6, 2004 - 9:51 pm: Emily,My old Appy used to get gas colic, and his response to banamine was exactly as you describe it. After administration of the banamine, he would act as if he were dead . . . and then the gas would pass and he would be happy and pain free for many months . . . I figured it was because he survived on a large volume of complete pellets and could only quid grass and hay . . . I started adding a prebiotic from ADEPTUS (Invigor, I think) and his colic episodes almost disappeared. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Monday, Jun 7, 2004 - 7:46 am: Sounds like you are doing a great job managing what is a difficult situation Emily.DrO |
| Member: Jcsmoon |
Posted on Tuesday, Apr 5, 2005 - 11:16 pm: Just though I would post a quick update ont his horse since it has been a year... Darned if this ol' bugger has made it another year. He maintained his weight through the winter and has not gone off his feed in a long time. He still will not move any faster than a walk and has some interesting diet demands. He flatly refuses anything haveing to do with alfalfa, grass hay only. He has perked up quite a bit since we added sweet feed and that seems to keep him interested in eating, even on his off days. I do notice that he dosen't lay down as often as he used to, and when he does lay down to sleep it is for an unusually long time. But in all he is still fairing reasonably well. |
| Member: Marroon |
Posted on Wednesday, Apr 6, 2005 - 9:33 am: Emily, Happy Anniversary! Congratulations on keeping him going! I read your post this morning and what a path you have been down. Very interesting to me and so glad you could share it. Wish you all the best luck this year! |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Thursday, Apr 7, 2005 - 9:38 am: Thanks for the update Emily, how have your last lab tests looked?DrO |
| Member: Chohler |
Posted on Thursday, Apr 7, 2005 - 3:45 pm: Will power is an amazing thing it kicks in when you don't expect it to.Makes me laugh he turns up his nose at alfalfa and loves the grass, usually it's the other way around. Good luck! |
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Helping Thousands of Equestrians, Farriers, and Veterinarians Every Day
All rights reserved, © 1997 -
is The Horseman's Advisor
Helping Thousands of Equestrians, Farriers, and Veterinarians Every Day
All rights reserved, © 1997 -
