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Discussion on Unknown diagnosis
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New Member:
Gwen
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 21, 2004 - 9:34 am:
I have a seven year old quarter horse gelding who has been baffling several people for the last few years. I have owned him since he was 2 and have spent a lot of money on attempting to diagnose him. I have had several different vets/chiropractors look at him and noone can really say a specific cause or treatment for him. I have read several topics on this website and found that he could possess about five different conditions discussed! 
Here is some of his history:
I bought him as a two year old. He was broke, but hadn't done much. I gave him a year off, then started working with a trainer in dressage. After several months, he began to show a subtle "hitch" in his hind end occasionally at the trot(usually his left hind traveling to the left). This continued from time to time, and eventually I had my vet come out because he also began swishing his tail and showing displeasure with moving forward). I believe the first one put him through a battery of tests and found his neck to be stiff, so put him on muscle relaxers. Nothing. Next, someone came out and xrayed his stifles to find that he was "OCDish". So he injected him. Nothing. He also had accupuncture done on the right side of his back which sent him bucking. Slight improvement, but nothing sustained. Next, I had chiropractors out who said that yes, his back was out of alignment and needed work. He came out frequently and we saw minor improvements, but later found out (through a third party)that this person thought that the horse never had much chance of improvement-he thought that he may have had a previous injury. Next, I had a woman come out who found that his front end is very sore, so she recommended corrective shoeing and time off. For another opinion, I took him to another vet who first lunged him (he looked great), then I jumped on and he began to "hitch" on figure eights. This vet said it was his long back/ and sort of sickle-hocks. He recommended the horse be a trail horse/lawn ornament. He later mentioned that maybe the horse had wobbles. So I decided to try the eight months' rest. We put him on the lunge line after the eight months and he came out HOPPING on his left hind!! ANY ideas? I have always wondered if it was me.. I am so strong on my right side and he always leans on that and is so stiff in the clockwise direction. I am sorry to be long-winded, I just wanted to provide a thorough history. I know that some things sound so inconsistent, but that is part of this FRUSTRATING situation! Thanks.
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Member:
Gwen
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 22, 2004 - 7:01 pm:
So apparently no one is jumping at the chance to offer ideas-completely understandable. This is a mishmash of imformation. As a follow-up, I spoke with the vet who mentioned wobblers and he restated that yes he does feel that it would be wise to go ahead with further testing in this area. So without knowing which vertebrae are affected, I can only speculate what his prognosis will be. However, the fact that his symptoms have not worsened in the past few years makes me believe that they may not ever. Is that a reasonable statement? Also, how safe is he to ride, with what seem to be fairly mild symptoms-if he is safe at all? And is he even safe enough to be a companion horse in my back yard? Lastly, could someone tell me roughly how much a myelogram(sp) costs? I have read the postings regarding this condition, but seemed to have missed discussions related to these questions. Sorry if I am being repetitive. Oh, and one more thing-some people on this website seem to have spent so much money on their horses! How do you convince a nonhorse husband to go for that?!!! Thanks for any info.
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Member:
Jcsmoon
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 22, 2004 - 11:49 pm:
Hard from here to make a judgement about wobblers but if he did have that, the vet should have identified what degree of neurological symptoms he felt he was seeing. Dr O can correct me, but I believe most use the Mayhew Scale. At Oregon State universtiy the Meylogram was about $900. They ususally take neck xrays first and have them evaluated for possible spots of compression. If warrented, they may do the Meylogram and usually a Western blot at the same time.
If this were me..... I would haul him to the closest University teaching hospital and let them have a go at him. You really get a biger bang for your buck. If they can't find the problem then probably no one can.
I tend to wonder if he perhaps needs some surgical intervention for hock OCD. You haven't said anything that jumps out as things that I have come to associate with wobblers.
As for the $ aspect, yes, most of us are out of our minds when it comes to our horses. I have taken out 2nd mortgages to pay for vet bills... As for the husband, if you have a REALY good vet he/she will kick down a little sedative for the hubby while you write out the check 
-Emily
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Apr 23, 2004 - 7:19 am:
Hello Gwen,
Emily is right on here. The vets that have been out should have at the very least made as attempt to objectively describe what they saw. Our biggest problem is that we can't see the hitch. Without seeing it we can't make an evaluation of a basic cause, neurological or muscoskeletal. We only know what you tell us.
If instead of subjective terms like "sore" or difficult to visualize terms like "a hitch" if instead we get a description of what the body parts are actually doing that make one think he is lame we could perhaps do a little more. Your next best step is to get to a referral institution that has lameness specialist. Some causes of chronic hitches are very treatable. Let us know what you find out.
DrO
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Member:
Gwen
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Posted on Friday, Apr 23, 2004 - 8:36 am:
Thank you Emily and Dr.O for getting back to me. In my hesitation to go on and on, I guess I have left out a few more clues. My horse shows difficulty getting down and up when attempting to roll. He also twists his head to turn and look at you from the side or behind. He also can not get off of a slant load trailer turning left. We have to push the dividers way over so that he can turn to the right(and that is stressful to watch!). The way the vet describes his hind end movement is how he doesn't pick up his feet in a typical way. For example, when he lunged him, he moved pretty freely. However, when I got on and asked him to sort of round through his neck and back he does anything to keep from stepping straight through with his hind legs. The motion the vet makes is almost like he is paddling. He had me attempt to back him up a hill(just yesterday), which is when he just sort of dragged his hind feet. Also, I don't know if this is related, but when being ridden or doing stretching excercises, he taps his lips together. I have called my local veterinary school and found that I will spend between $500 and $2500 depending on how the exam is going. I have spent so much time, energy and money on his vet bills, so I would love to resign myself to not ever diagnosing him and just taking it day to day. But now with the possbility of wobblers, I feel that that would be irresponsible. Thanks again for your responses, and I will let you know of any resolution.
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Member:
Paul303
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Posted on Friday, Apr 23, 2004 - 1:49 pm:
I doubt very seriously that this is a possibility, but since the feedback on this site is always helpful, I'll throw my experience into the mix. I raised my QH mare from birth. She was bred with a heavy reining/performance background exhibited great athletic ability and balance in her baby antics in the pasture. As a yearling, I began gentle lunging. This was only walk-trot, and never more than 10 - 15 minutes. Somewhere along the line, I was positive I was noticing a "hitch" in the rear end. The frustrating thing was, no one: vet, trainers, farrier, could see it. I did not break her to ride until she was well past 2, and then only very gentle light riding. She preformed well, was exceptional on trail rides, and did everything asked of her in the arena - but was not happy about arena work. Everyone said it was a "mare thing" and to quit being paranoid. I had two different vets check her out ( one a lameness specialist ), more that once and became known as the "overprotective mother". X-rays were never taken because no one could see anything, or feel anything when she was ridden. She won in halter, her futurity, and her early pleasure classes - so, judges watched her go, and saw nothing.
She remained exceptional on long trail rides, had a consistently sweet nature, but continued to be ornery in the arena. This began to turn into a reluctance to go forward. To me, her major symptom in the arena was a swishing tail and pinned ears. Again, I was told I was too easy on her, it was a mare thing, and to "get after her". I knew something was wrong.
At about 4 1/2 years old, the head bobbing turned up. Again, the vet said it was nothing and the farrier said it looked like she just stepped on a stone. This time I insisted on x-rays. The x-rays showed lollipop lesions ( at least, that's what they were called then ), on the RF and changes on the LF. She was navicular.
Her show career was over, but she will be 24 on May 2, and with diligent treatment with my wonderful vets and farriers, she has remained a perfect trail horse. I don't fault the vets or the farriers - her symptoms were so slight and nebulous that only someone who was with her constantly could feel the "sense" of something "off".
It all started with the "phantom" hip hitch.
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Member:
Gwen
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Posted on Friday, Apr 23, 2004 - 7:17 pm:
Hi Elizabeth,
Thanks for the input! I love this website. I have gotten so much information in such a short period of time. That makes me feel so much better that there is another "hitch" out there. It is interesting too, that she had problems in the front end. I actually had my horse xrayed in the front end and found problems. His feet were being trimmed at an inappropriate angle for his fetlocks, so there were changes in the bones of his feet. However, there had not been navicular-type changes yet. It was more of little bone spurs forming as a result of the incorrect angles. We started corrective shoeing and gave him about nine months off. After the break and fixed feet, we threw him on the lunge line again. Hitchy again. Maybe we didn't give him enough time, or maybe by then there had been irreversable changes behind and in front as a result of compensating.? I do think it is very interesting to hear that your horse's issues ended up being a result of the front end.. Thanks again.
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Member:
Jcsmoon
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Posted on Friday, Apr 23, 2004 - 7:40 pm:
Gwen- That starts to explain your vets thought of wobblers, ie: paddeling, toe draging, dificulty riseing, and what may be a head tilt.
The following is from my experiences: The thing with Univ. is that for hard to diagnose problems they are great. You have many experts in specific fields who are close to the most recient information all looking at the same thing at the same time. The first thing they will do is a nurological exsam, IF they feel he is showing nero signs they will outline a testing plan. This is likely to first include xrays to see if there is any spots that look like they are possibly compressed in the cervical vertibra. If yes, they can go on to a meylogram and usually do a western blot at the same time. If no, they may still recommend a meylogram, or western blot, or some other appropriate test.
If you decide to go here are some tips:
1. Have your S**t togather, have all pertinant records copied and compiled. Include test results and exam findings from any of the vets who have seen your horse for this issue. Bundle it by visit and put in chronological order with a log. Include a symptom log stateing when and to what degree symptoms appeared or significantly changed as you abserved them.
2. Pictures say alot more, make a vhs video of your horse being ridden by you in his normal environment. Try to capture his full frame from the side, front and rear. As you ride, speak out loudly when you feel him do his hitch thing so it can be heard on the tape.
3. Plan ahead, this can be an incredible learning expereince for you. When you make the appointment find out who the overseeing Vet will be. If he/she is availible ask to speek to them. Keep it short and sweet tell them you are scheduled to see them thus-n-such date for an undiagnosed hitch and possible Wobblers. You would like to send them the pertinant records and a video in advance for them to view.
4. Know your limits, decide in advance what you can and are willing to afford. Express this to them and I am sure you will find they explain the cost/benefit of each recomended test.
I have done this my self 3 times now with diffrent horses and each time they would thank me as it made their job so much easier. Each time they had a feel for what they were going to look at and I usually had a pack of students who had already been geared up for the case.
As for the responsibility issue, well only you can decide that. As Dr O. said, hitch things may be correctable. There is a suregery for some wobblers but that is in the $5K range. Just realize that 1000lbs of hay burnin' attitude is dangerous enough if they are healthy, if you add neurological issues into that equation they can unitentionally become very dangerous animals to be anywhere near. Be extra cautious untill you know what is going on.
The other thing I will add is that you could be pleasently surprised, they may not find any neuro stuff.
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Member:
Gwen
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 24, 2004 - 12:21 pm:
Emily, thanks so much for the tips! Unfortunately, I don't think I will be able to utilize them. My husband has put his foot down and said,"No more." It is difficult to argue with him when we are putting up a barn in the backyard as I write this. So until that miracle scratch ticket falls into my hands, I will have to live with the way he is. Here is a question that I don't really want to know the answer to... Is he in pain(the horse not my husband)? Should I bute him?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 25, 2004 - 10:28 am:
I would do all I could to make him comfortable but there is a slight risk. Pain is what might keep the horse from further hurting himself especially with Wobblers.
DrO
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Member:
Jcsmoon
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 28, 2004 - 5:59 pm:
From my experience, my filly did not seem to really be aware of her problem untill the very latest stages. In hindsight, I realize how dangerous she was to be around while she was blissfully unaware. Please be carefull and on your toes.
I did hear of another horse that had difficulty riseing and mangaged to cause a brain injury thrusting himself over backwards trying to rise.
I was glad that we were smart enough, when the time came, to restrict our filly to a small paddock that was the easiest to remove a downed horse from. That is something to consider if you are builidng a barn, can you disassemble the face of the stall within 15 miniutes? Can the overhead structure support the weight of a full grown horse being hoisted? Chain sawing through your barn wall to get a horse out really kinda bites.
Please keep us updated on the horse.
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Member:
Gwen
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 29, 2004 - 7:24 am:
Hi Emily,
Thanks for sharing your experiences. It is so difficult to imagine that my horse is a danger when he appears to just be kind of stiff in his everyday functioning. But it is so scary to think that he is a danger to himself. My last horse died of a brain anuerism (sp) in front of me at the age of ten, so I can't bear to witness something so sad anytime soon. (I seem to have a black cloud over me!)
The barn we are building will have run-ins, so the openings will be large. As for the paddock area, we are getting the electric tape, which can be sectioned off easily. Having watched him in the paddock lately, he seems to avoid getting into the running around games. He went from being the instigator to kind of giving the others dirty looks as they play. I guess this kind of confirms Dr.O's thoughts of his discomfort protecting him.
This is so frustrating. I absolutely hate the thought that he is either in pain or danger.
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Member:
Miamoo
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Posted on Monday, May 3, 2004 - 2:48 pm:
If you come up with any answers I would love to know what they are. I also have a 7 year old Quarter Horse with exactly the same issue. A hitch in her hind end. She has been through it all - including a trip to Tufts for a bone scan that told us about nothing.
She drags her back toes and gets muscle stiffness. She has a very difficult time with canter departures. She can't lift in to it. She has to trot into it. I have been through the acupuncture route with questionable improvement and I had a biopsy for epsm done last fall. It was negitive. She has been on muscle relaxers and has had a front ankle injected (sore from taking weight off back end?)
I turned her out for the winter and have just started her back (Yes, out for 8 months) and guess what - The hitch is still there. The only difference between my horse and yours seems to be that mine does not have trouble getting up. I have been told that she would make a great lawn ornament or to put her in the ground. She is a gorgeous mare with a wonderful disposition but yes, not breeding material as she also is a bit sickle hocked. (I wonder if the hocks are the real link) Similar aren't they?
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Member:
Canyon28
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Posted on Monday, May 3, 2004 - 3:36 pm:
She is a gorgeous mare with a wonderful disposition but yes, not breeding material as she also is a bit sickle hocked. (I wonder if the hocks are the real link) Similar aren't they?
***************************************
i would not be afraid to breed this mare , as long as you breed her to a horse with a good leg set. I had a mare that was somewhat cowhocked and bred her to several different stallions with more ideal conformation , she had four foals while I owned her, only one of them had the slightest cow hocks, and he was gelded.
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Member:
Gwen
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Posted on Monday, May 3, 2004 - 9:44 pm:
Hi Ella. Funny that you should mention Tufts because that is where I was going to take him! I guess I don't have to save up that money now, huh?
I was talking to a friend the other day about my dilemma, and how I just can't afford to pursue this any longer. She mentioned maybe doing some alternative therapies on him. Like some stretching and strengthening excercises. I guess it is worth a shot, right?
I actually rode him today and he was pretty supple and comfortable! I really don't feel too threatened by the possibility that he will fall, because he doesn't stumble. (Hopefully Murphy's Law doesn't find me!) Could this all be a bridle lameness excaserbated (sp) by his conformational faults????
What type of riding do you do with your mare? Does she have a long back?
When I say that he has a hard time getting down and up from rolling, he is just tentative and shaky. He gets up with one try, but he seems to get worried about it or something.
Anyway, I don't know that I will find any answers that will help you. If I do, you will be one of the first to know. If you learn anything, please let me know too. Thanks!
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Member:
Miamoo
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Posted on Tuesday, May 4, 2004 - 8:26 am:
Gwen,
She is slightly long in the back but her real conformational weakness is the hocks. When I got her I was aware of the hocks but she was sound and the hocks exrayed clean and so I took her based on her amazing personality. For my mare I would not be surprised if the hocks are the basis of her problems. Just too much strain on her body. Good luck and let me know if you find any solutions.
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Member:
Gwen
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Posted on Tuesday, May 4, 2004 - 12:05 pm:
Ella-There is a posting from 2002 that I found interesting. It is called "Body Bone Scan-Syntography". A woman wrote in about a warmblood she had that was showing some vague, inconsistent funkiness behind. She explained all of her efforts to have the horse diagnosed with something, then finally had someone work hard to strengthen her in all the right areas and her movement improved a ton. It gets a little tricky to read at times, but it was pretty interesting because her mare was sickle-hocked too. MAYBE we are on to something...
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Member:
Miamoo
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Posted on Tuesday, May 4, 2004 - 2:12 pm:
Hi Gwen,
I read the article. The hocks do seem to keep popping up, don't they. I will keep working my mare lightly (actually I have a teenager who is lighter than me who will be riding her). I did not keep going with her last year once she was sore so I don't know if keeping going and building muscle will help or make things worse. I've spent most of the money I can on her diagnostically so now I will experiment a bit.
Dr. O,
What is your thoughts about breeding a Mare with conformation issues in her hocks (my vet calls them sickle hocks but they look more bowlegged to me). Neither her mother or father have these issues. I've seen her maternal grandfather and he had great conformation. Her paternal grandfather was Seattle Slew. I have not seen him but his confirmation has to be good or he wouldn't have been such a race horse. I have debated breeding her (she is gorgeous and beautifully tempered) but am concerned about passing along her issues.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, May 5, 2004 - 7:30 am:
I would avoid breeding horses with poor confirmation Ella.
DrO
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Member:
Gwen
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 2, 2004 - 7:47 am:
I have a sort of update/follow-up question regarding my QH gelding. I actually am starting to think that his neck stiffness may be related to the incorrect angles and shallow sole in his front feet. He seems to be somewhat more flexible and willing to stretch as I work with him now that his farrier is making great changes. Also, the texture just seems more elastic in his neck now. We will see.
Anyway, I am looking for information on yet another symptom he is showing. He lifts his hind right leg as if he were a dog urinating on a tree. He does it only occasionally. This is actually the leg that SOMETIMES appears funky when being ridden. As I have mentioned in prior posts, he sometimes hitches with it. (I actually think that I mispoke and said that it was his left leg.) It is usually traveling to the left, on a circle or in a corner. Also, he sort of twists/flares that hind hoof a bit. Man, I could go on and on about this darn horse!
A noteworthy piece of his history is that a vet found him to be "OCDish" in his LEFT stifle about two years ago. His right stifle was never Xrayed but incorrect angles were found by Xray in the right hind foot. Just curious to see if anyone has had horses doing that stretch thing. Thanks. -Gwen
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 3, 2004 - 5:47 am:
I have seen my horses do this but only very rarely. This hind limb stretching has been associated with EPSM see, Equine Diseases » Lameness » Diseases of the Upper Rear Limb » Tying Up, Rhabdomyolysis, and Shivers (EPSM).
DrO
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Member:
Gwen
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 3, 2004 - 6:29 am:
Hi Dr. O,
I refered to the article, as had I when I initally started asking about this horse. There are some definite red flags related to him. Do you know of any documented info. regarding these horses showing gait problems such as my horse's? I have read posts about this, but don't think there were any mentioning that.
It is my understanding that they do some sort of muscle biopsy to diagnose it.? And it seems to often be treated with nutritional changes. I know you have probably talked about this a million times, so I understand if you don't want to get too detailed. Thanks. -Gwen
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Member:
Zane
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 6, 2004 - 2:03 am:
Gwen I am pretty new to horses so this may not make sense but could this all be the result of the stiffle? We have a quarter horse that has a weak stiffle from a previous injury. He urinates like you described. He also has a little "pop or hitch where the stiffle moves. He has some trouble getting up sometimes. He drags his back end a bit and pulls himself with his front which makes him hold his head a bit high and stiff. He has trouble picking up a canter on one side and moves better in certain directions than others. He has trouble on steep hills and I can see how backing down a ramp would be hard for him. My horses stiffle is not that bad and when it acts up the symptoms get worse. When his stiffle is good the symptoms dissapear. Often after going on hills or deep mud ,which we try to avoid, he will get more of a "hitch" in the stiffle. The best way to treat it is to strenghen the sourounding muscle with conditioning and the muscle supports the stiffle. I hope this is the problem and nothing nerve related,good luck.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Jun 7, 2004 - 7:37 am:
Gwen, I am not sure I understand your question about documentation. Are you asking does EPSM cause lameness? The answer is yes and the characterization of the lameness varies from a stiff short gait (tied up) to some rather odd stringhalt like motions. A horse with a straight forward weight bearing lameness on a single hind limb does not look like an EPSM but your posts above suggest a problem that looks more vague.
DrO
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Member:
Gwen
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Posted on Monday, Jun 7, 2004 - 9:09 am:
Dr.O, I am all over the map with this horse! I guess I was wondering if what I described with regards to his hind end issues (asymetrical "hitching") sounds like anything you have heard relating to EPSM. I am really starting to wonder though, as a result of hearing the feedback on this site-if he has had several different isolated problems that together looked liked something else. I am thinking that maybe I should focus on his stifles now, and building up that hind end to see what I get. He has always been weak back there. Just curious, how often do you see horses with a bunch of different isolated problems? Would this be just a fluke?
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Member:
Miamoo
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Posted on Monday, Jun 7, 2004 - 10:13 am:
Hi Gwen,
Remember me? I have the 7 year old mare that mirrors your horses issues. Well, I needed to make a decision as to whether I was going to find a use for my mare or find her a home as a lawn ornament so I took her for another opinion with a new vet in my practice and believe it or not - he found the issue.
What looks exactly like a hind end hitch is coming from the front. The hind end is just uncomfortable taking weight off the front. She has navicular synDrOm. My vet said that when he went to inject her coffin bone the fluid coming out was as thin as water.
I am now going through the process of corrective shoing and medication for a navicular horse. I don't know if it will be successful or not but I sure am glad to know where my issues are coming from.
I guess I am writing this to say that just because it looks like a hind end hitch, it might not be. My mare fooled the best. I guess when they compensate they can show problems anywhere.
Good luck... I am going now to investigate more on the site regarding navicular synDrOm. 
Ella
Dr. O,
Does Navicular SynDrOm tend to be hereditary?
Thank you,
Ella
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Monday, Jun 7, 2004 - 11:14 am:
Hi All,
This might not mean anything, but it is interesting to note that the issues talked about by Gwen and some of the other members all relate to Quarter Horses.
Is it just the way that they are built that predisposes them to these problems? I wanted to comment on this because it seems that Quarter horses are more likely to get "Navicular" or "EPSM" or "Arthritic Hocks"
I have a Quarter Horse who has both front and back end issues, so some days it is hard to judge which end is bothering him.
Food for thought,
Susan B.
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Member:
Zane
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Posted on Monday, Jun 7, 2004 - 1:56 pm:
More food for thought ...we also went through a period when we suspected wobblers. We have dealt with all sorts of front end bruises and soreness related to the stffle. I know the problem in our horse is from the stiffle because all the other symptoms show up if we have inadvertently strained his stiffle. The suggestion to video tape him is a good idea . You may be able to show it to a vet who recognizes something. Also have a vet do an "extension" test like they do on a prepurchase. On our horse if you hold his leg high and tight to his stomach then trot him out you can see the stiffle strain and how he compensates. Hope you can narrow it down.
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Monday, Jun 7, 2004 - 3:10 pm:
So....the million dollar question would be.
Do horses that first go lame in the hind end because of various pathologies eventually end up with problems in the front end?
Normally, a horse gets all the power from the back end and the front is kinda just for steering.
Horses do carry about 60 to 65 percent of their weight on the front end. So...is it reasonable to assume that if the back end has some issues that the front feet are going to take a pounding?
Gosh, I hope no one is going to get ulcers, digesting my food for thought.
Susan B.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 8, 2004 - 6:09 am:
Gwen you do see multiple lameness problems in horss occasionally. You also see single problems that seem to cause several different changes in gaits. When faced with mixed signals I always take the problems one at a time starting with the most obvious. Many times once the most obvious problem is dealt with the other issues go away, but not always.
DrO
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 8, 2004 - 6:14 am:
Ella, to the degree that a long toe and low heel or rotational deformities of the foot are hereditary I would say yes. But then again many of these horses just suffer from poor or too little trimming early in their life.
DrO
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New Member:
Jennyg
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 8, 2004 - 6:29 am:
Regarding the hitch in the hind leg. Upward Patellar Fixation seems to consistent with your horses symptoms. I don't know whether this has been explored yet?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Jul 9, 2004 - 7:00 am:
When I read her description Jenny, it really did not sound like UFP. UFP causes a horse to drag a hind foot behind though when the ligament pops off the leg sometimes has a exaggerated forward motion. For a better description see Equine Diseases » Lameness » Diseases of the Upper Rear Limb » Diseases of the Stifle » Stifle Lock: Upward Fixation of the Patella.
DrO
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Member:
Gwen
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Posted on Friday, Jul 30, 2004 - 7:59 pm:
I had a thorough examination done today. Vet came out and blocked his stifle to find him 75% better. So she ultra-sounded the joint and found nothing. She then x-rayed and found nothing. She also looked at and compared the old x-rays from when another vet diagnosed OCD. She said that that was not the issue in her opinion. She reported that she had looked at everything she could within that joint, without being able to perform the surgical procedures. She said that by default, it must be an old injury to his ACL, which completely limits him to being a lawn ornament. Very depressing. Just wanted to follow up with some closure! By the way, the vet and I discussed how bothered he is to not have a "job"-does anyone know of ways to teach horses tricks? I think that would help him feel important.
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Member:
Eoeo
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Posted on Friday, Jul 30, 2004 - 10:11 pm:
A friend of mine is teaching her horse to play a key board while he is on stall rest for a knee injury. She has taught a couple of her horses to do this plus other tricks. One is really into jazz. EO
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 31, 2004 - 12:07 pm:
Bummer Gwen but after several years of lameness, not a surprise. Check out Training Horses » Training Your Horse's Mind » Topics Not Covered Above » Teaching Tricks.
DrO
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Member:
Gwen
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 10, 2004 - 7:54 pm:
I can't believe I am writing this, but my horse is traveling soundly. A friend of mine has gotten into massage therapy as a result of an injury to herself, and has taken the knowledge to work with my horse. She found several "hot spots" in his muscles, that seem to be causing him much pain, discomfort and stiffness. He has been looking awesome on the lunge line thus far. Interestingly, we tried to put a saddle on his back the other day and he immediately went like a newly broken baby! Bucking all the way around the circle. We are taking it very slowly and I don't want to get too excited, but even his expression has improved. I swear his eye has softened. Anyway, I thought some of you might be interested to hear about the latest developments.
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Member:
Gwen
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 1, 2005 - 8:31 am:
I apologize again to perseverate on my horse's condition without seeking veterinary advice. As I have mentioned, I can't afford it so am utilizing some alternative measures and am seeing positive results. He still however, twists his head to turn and look in back of him. I just wanted to mention some observations I have made lately and maybe get some thoughts. As I look out into his paddock, I very often see him playing with either a bucket he has found or halter and lead rope he took from its hook. He is flipping it up and around in circles with the objects in his mouth. I can't help but think that he wouldn't be able to do that with a neurological problem. Could he have an issue with the ligaments on the top of his neck that make him so stiff? I am just asking out of curiosity!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 3, 2005 - 7:17 am:
I am afraid the play behavior does not rule out neurological conditions nor is the nuchal ligament associated with clinical disease even rarely. It appears to be very tough.
DrO
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Member:
Gwen
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 23, 2005 - 6:16 pm:
So I went to a new vet (whom I met while she worked for an old one) and found some interesting information! She x-rayed his neck and pulled some blood. The xrays showed some calcifications in his spine AND elevated enzymes in the blood work. So basically, he has been tentatively diagnosed with TWO conditions. We will put him on an EPSM related diet to start and will see how he progresses with that. After several months, we will reevaluate his comfort level and judge whether or not we will need to maybe inject his neck. The vet said she wasn't sure if his neck was a result of a traumatic injury or something that he was born with. What is interesting to note is that they observed him about a month ago and he seemed quite lame. Since then, I have started to work him and he was barely lame this time.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 24, 2005 - 11:29 am:
Why do you think the improvement Gwen?
DrO
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Member:
Gwen
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 24, 2005 - 1:19 pm:
I think that the excercise helped to soften his muscles as well as some very light massage that we have been doing since we last saw the vet the first time. Isn't that what is recommended for a horse with EPSM-consistent work?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Apr 25, 2005 - 7:41 am:
Glad to hear you are seeing improvement. For our recomendations on the treatment of EPSM see Equine Diseases » Lameness » Muscle & Tendon Diseases » Tying Up, Rhabdomyolysis, and Shivers (EPSM).
DrO
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Member:
Gwen
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Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 4:34 pm:
My horse has been doing well as of late. He is eating his new food and seems to have a somewhat different muscle texture already. He has been exhibiting odd sweat marks lately though. There are two large spots on his neck that showed up both at the end of a ride and on a recent trailer ride. I am assuming this is tied to the EPSM, but have not seen any postings on it. Any ideas?? Thanks.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 11:46 pm:
If he is behaving normal I see no reason not to think he just got hot.
DrO
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Member:
Gwen
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Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 6:35 am:
So it is common to sweat in patches like that? Thanks!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 9:42 am:
Yes, the neck is a common area for a horse to begin sweating.
DrO
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New Member:
Denise
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 17, 2007 - 2:54 pm:
I know this discussion has been over for a long time. But reading I can't help but wonder what your outcome was Gwen. I have a 2 and 1/2 year old Thoroughbred that is showing all the same signs. It started with him dragging his left toe shortly after we started him under saddle. We thought it was low energy so we increased his grain. He did improve slightly. This was last July. Then in August he got a locking stifle in his left hind. We rested him until he was better, but still dragging his toe. We had a massage therapist work on him 2x per week and it certainly helped. We felt that he had atrophy in his stifle muscles so started him on some light hill work. He improved greatly but then developed a buckling in his leg where it would sometimes DrOp out from under him. Off to Tufts we went. They did an initial exam and said they thought it was neurological. (which doesn't sound right to me as it would affect both sides) They x-rayed his neck- fine. Ultrasound and x-rayed the stifle-beautiful. Tested him for EPM- negative. After taking him to Tufts he got bad again. The massage therapist/chiropractor had another look at him and discovered his sacrum was subluxed so she adjusted him and massaged and him improved though he was still weak in the hind end. He then started getting fussy when we touched his belly. After a few weeks I had an aha moment and questioned an ulcer due to the stomach sensitivity and unusual crankiness. We started him on Gastrogard for the ulcer and his attitude has improved dramatically along with his appetite. (We began treatment 5 days ago) I rode him yesterday and he is still favoring that left hind. He also has the "hitching" feeling you were talking about. He is tracking perfectly underneath and shows no signs of stiffness. The massage therapist was out again 5 days ago and was probing around and found he had high sensitivity on his "staying mechanism" (the ligamentus that helps the horse to sleep standing)just above the pelvic bone. When palpated there was reaction in the lumbar region of his spine. It was also more prominent on the left side. You could feel it very obviously, where on the right it was barely detectable.
I know that the ulcer and the weakness are unrelated directly. Though I believe he got the ulcer from his discomfort and the stressful trip to Tufts. I am very frustrated and not sure where to go next. I hope your situation has been resolved and you can report good news.
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Member:
Gwen
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 18, 2007 - 6:52 pm:
Hi Denise,
I wish I could tell you that all is perfect with my horse! It has been an ongoing struggle with him, trying to get/keep him sound and comfortable. At times, it has been overwhelming. The biggest component to his discomfort seems to be the EPSM. When that is treated well (with diet and exercise), he is much better. I am currently contemplating getting a chiropractor out again, as he hasn't seen one since I got this EPSM diagnosis. I noticed you went to Tufts. Where are you located? I am in southeastern MA. I don't even have any words of wisdom for you! Sorry to disappoint! Best of luck with your guy. }
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Jan 19, 2007 - 8:07 am:
Rereading the above posts Gwen, it seemed clear that your horse had (or has) a diseased left stifle. If someone would give me 2 to 1 odds I would bet OCD that was not radiographically demonstrable. and probably some other problem on top that was characterized by generalized stiffness and possibly incoordination.
Rather than pay a chiropractor you should work the horse good then 24 hrs later measure the CK level in the blood. It may give a clue if you have uncontrolled EPSM and then perhaps we can attack that more aggressively. See EPSM for more on this.
If there still is left hind lameness there are certainly therapeutic avenues that I don't see pursued in the above posts. Of course the prognosis for 100% sound is poor but since you are still looking at alternative therapies I wonder if you have pursued all of the better documented veterinary avenues.
DrO
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Member:
Gwen
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Posted on Friday, Jan 19, 2007 - 9:11 am:
Thanks Dr. O. His left hind lameness has decreased significantly in the past few weeks, which made us think that it was related to the EPSM. Apparently, this is a symptom which is seen in EPSM horses, sometimes a one-sided lameness. He did have some lesions on his stifle several years ago when he was xrayed, but it was very mild and the vet at that time thought that it didn't seem to correlate with the lameness he saw. Anyway, I am at the point where I feel that I have exhausted all of the avenues of diagnostics, and feel that he has responded very positively to the EPSM diet and consistent exercise routine. Out of curiosity, what tells you that it is a diseased stifle? Thanks for revisiting this sort of redundant thread I created!
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New Member:
Denise
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Posted on Friday, Jan 19, 2007 - 9:43 am:
Hi Gwen and Dr.O.,
I am located in southwestern NH. Have either of you heard of successful acupuncture treatments for this lameness? I have decided to put him back to a regular work out schedule of about 1 hour per day at walk/trot doing mostly straight work and see if his lameness improves with muscle toning. With the thorough exam he had at Tufts I know that it is not skeletal, more likely ligament/tendon or muscular. Gwen I am sorry to hear that you continue to struggle with this. I had a client use Cocoa oil and beet pulp for EPSM and it seemed to help. Have you heard of this DR. O?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Jan 19, 2007 - 8:23 pm:
Gwen, there are many small indicators but it was the 75% improvement when the stifle was blocked, you wrote about in an earlier post, that strongly suggest a stifle problem.
Denise I do not know any acupuncture therapy that has a clear indication for a specific lameness or disease. While there are some experiments that show a lessening of pain in poorly defined conditions invariably when put to critical double blinded tests there is not have a remarkable effect.
We still recommend acupuncture under certain specific back pain conditions but the interesting thing is it does not seem to matter where the needles are stuck or how they are stuck to get the poorly defined benefit.
Oil (it does not have to be cocoa) and beet pulp can have a place in the treatment of EPSM, for our recommendations on EPSM see Diseases of Horses > Lameness Muscle & Tendon Diseases > Rhabdomyolysis: Tying Up, Shivers, PSSM, EPSM.
DrO
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Member:
Gwen
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 20, 2007 - 10:36 am:
Thank you for clarifying, Dr. O. For some reason, the left hind gets more sound when he is worked more. I am going to go with what is working for now. If/when it pops up again, I will probably pursue that avenue.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 21, 2007 - 9:34 am:
Hmmm....let me reemphasize my point. Though you say a horse with what appears to have a weight bearing lameness could be do to EPSM this is quite rare in my experience and never a clear diagnosis.
It is sometimes made when there is a undiagnosed rear limb lameness and EPSM suspected. But since many causes of lameness go undiagnosed in horses without EPSM you can see that the combination of undiagnosed lameness with EPSM does not mean it is do to EPSM. Your case actually goes one better with a indication of specific joint lameness.
Think about this I find a common scenario being an undiagnosed lameness leading to an iffy diagnosis of EPSM and Dr Valberg specifically warns against this in her lectures on EPSM. The problem is the true cause of lameness is being ignored.
Why ignore the stifle lameness, see Arthritis Overview for recommendations on treatment. There are economical things you can do to make riding better and perhaps increase the useful time of your horse without a dime of further diagnosis.
DrO
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Member:
gwen
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 19, 2007 - 7:18 pm:
I just wanted to share that my Jack is feeling so good that he stood quietly while the farrier put hind shoes on today. He used to almost fall over when they would try to TRIM him... He is doing so great.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 21, 2007 - 10:29 am:
Congrats Gwen.
DrO
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