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Discussion on Huge crack in rear hoof (pic)
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 12, 2007 - 4:16 pm:
Well Hank was doing well. This crack has now shown up. It has been developing for awhile, I think it is from when the vet dug out his white line and his wall was compromised. He is not lame on it. I stopped riding him. The farrier is coming Tues. Will he now require back shoes? The crevice is huge, and seems to be about ready to get into sensitive tissue. I don't have a hoof nippers, but my husband did cut off the bottom part to take off the upward pressure on it. It hasn't got worse since. We were not able to comfortably get the rest off. Are our riding days over again? How do you fix this?
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 12, 2007 - 4:48 pm:
When were his rear feet trimmed? The hoof wall is so long it's very likely to break off like this. That's how the horse gets rid of the excess--sort of self trimming--but would have not taken so much had the walls not been so long. I don't think it will cause a problem other than losing a big chunk of wall. Good thing the farrier is coming as he has too much excess hoof wall beyond the sole. This is bad, because when it breaks, it breaks too short and then there's pressure on the sole. Come on Diane--you're going to have to learn to rasp his feet in between trims. I'm sure you could do it! Hope the feet with shoes don't grow this fast!
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Member:
amara
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 12, 2007 - 4:51 pm:
hi diane!
you just dont seem to catch a break huh?
normally when i see a crack like that its overlong hoof breaking off to where it wants to be... in his case it broke off a little deeper than it should, but it was definately overlong and i'm not surprised it broke off like that...
i'd go and fix the rest of those feet before they do the same thing... i'd also fix the rest of the hoof-heels are too far forward and breakover way too far back, which just puts extra stress on the overlong toe...
as far as the broken piece i'd get the rest of it off before he hurts himself on it.. do you have a pair of nippers you can use to cut it off right at the level of the ground?, then use a rasp to file any sharp edges... otherwise you may just have to work at it awhile till it comes off...leaving it like that could only make things worse...
unless he's lame i wouldnt worry too much... i've seen horses with a whole lot worse that are still fine...
good luck
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 12, 2007 - 5:18 pm:
Diane, you can nip the hoof flap off from the top while he is standing on his foot . . . and then just rasp the surface of the hoof to make it fairly smooth. If there is a sharp corner where the other wall touches the ground, you can round that corner so it won't be tempted to break off more before the farrier comes.
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 12, 2007 - 6:21 pm:
Diane, sorry to interrupt this post , My horse has been having flaps of hoof wall like yours break off. Difference being my horses hoof walls are already very short. It is defiantly not because they are trying to self trim, nothing to trim. He is basically walking on mainly sole as the walls have broken most of the way off around the hoof. I am able to file it nicely etc. I am contributing mine to to much wet and too much dry in a day. I started putting durasole on the sole as its bearing so much weight and then covering the hoof with a wax-oil mix to keep the moisture from getting in and stop it from drying out to fast. So my question is for Julie Mellissa or Dr O or Holly, (hope it helps you Diane if you have wet /dry) Do you think what I am doing will help. I know all the shod horses are losing shoes left right and centre with this heat and night time wet grass. Also heels too far forward. What does that mean? Too long? Someone else said that having the heels to far forward can make the toes chip badly. I am not sure what this means? Can you explain?
Again sorry Diane I didnt want a new post as this is realy the same problem we are having with the difference of very short feet verses long>
Katrina
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Member:
amara
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 12, 2007 - 6:45 pm:
katrina,
could you post a pic?
when heels are too far forward and/or breakover too far back it puts stress on the toe. this can cause the white line to stretch and weaken the hoof...eventually the hoof wall can break off, even in what may seem like a real short hoof...
in a shod horse a heel too far forward can slow the breakover such that the hind feet step on the front feet and pull off the shoe...
certainly wet/dry conditions can weaken the hoof wall... my horses have lived in wet/dry conditions all their life and i've never had a problem with chipping as long as i kept their feet properly maintained... i've never used any hoof care products...
if you're sure its the environment that's causing the problem any way you can stabilize the footing environment at all? put them in a dry lot in overnite when dew gets the ground wet?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 12, 2007 - 7:16 pm:
Do remember pictures can be deceiving...his hoof wall is long, but not as bad as it looks in the pic!
He was trimmed 4 weeks ago, that is why I am scheduling the farrier every 4 weeks. That boy grows unbelievable hoof FAST. His fronts have already over grown the shoe. I hung over the farriers shoulder when he trimmed Hanks backs and they looked good when he was done...REALLY!
I don't know if you recall Hank had an abscess in both rear hooves. The vet basically dug his whiteline down about 1/4 of in in. all around one side of his rt. hoof...that is the one that cracked. I am pretty sure that is what caused it.
Will he need a shoe to hold that hoof together?
Correct trim or not I am afraid it is going to keep splitting it is pretty deep. I couldn't get a good enough picture to do it justice.
It is very dry here and my other horses hooves are chipping ...but not like Hanks. They have NEVER had chips before this year. We have sixes in. of rain then DrOught, then another 6 in.
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 12, 2007 - 7:37 pm:
Diane Its also extremely dry here and the other barefoot horses are chipping too. Coincidence?
I think its great he is trimmed every 4 weeks, its just my horse is so short compared to yours. I am going to make another post so as not to keep interrupting yours and take pictures tomorrow. Hopefully we can work this one out. I also have never had this problem. Melissa I will take pictures tomorrow and make a new post. Please know that his hoof shape is because of extreme wall breakage and not my trim. They are funny looking. He is totally sound landing heel first but does not like to hold his feet up for long.
Diane, I don't think this is a reason for shoes. If you had shoes on they can still split and lose shoes.
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 12, 2007 - 7:45 pm:
PS Diane, my horse also looked like he had a little white line and I was also thinking that this might have caused it to break away. I never dug it out as it wasnt bad. I just started treating that also.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 12, 2007 - 8:22 pm:
Thanks Katrina, I am starting to be suspicious of WLD, I have been tapping his hooves lately to see if they sound hollow and they do seem to sound different than the other horses. I hope it isn't WLD of I am done. The vet nor farrier can't handle that! They both think WLD and seedy toe are the same thing.
When I went out to feed tonight I bent that piece hanging off back and forth and it broke off. The inside looks weird to me. I will go see if I can get a pic.....but it does look rather "hollow" in there.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 12, 2007 - 8:37 pm:
Someone PLEASE tell me that looks ok for loosing a big chunk of hoof. What is that hanging inside? dead laminae? If he has white line I am royally you know what. Here's a pic
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Member:
mysi
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 12, 2007 - 9:24 pm:
Diane,
Before Moose was in hind shoes he use to get cracks like that in his hind hooves and they looked exactly like that. It was never anything to worry about (And he's not in shoes because of that). It never posed a problem and he never had to be "too long" for it to happen, but right about 4 weeks after the farrier came it would happen.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 12, 2007 - 10:04 pm:
Thanks Melissa, I don't quite understand did shoes help it? Hank hasn't had hind shoes since he was 3... he's 10 now and I really don't want to start unless it would help.
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Member:
amara
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 12, 2007 - 10:32 pm:
cant tell from those pics if he has white line or not.. need to get a closer shot...clean the hoof first too if you can....
between the earlier pictures and what i can see of the hoof in the latest pictures i have to say i doubt the pics are deceiving us and that he really has a very long toe... there's far too big a space from where the toe currently is and where he's chipped the wall off from...
also, there's no deceiving with breakover and heels out of whack...
when were these abcesses? that 1/4 inch should be grown out within 2 months or so...i do agree that it could weaken an area, but remember the hoof wall is not what's getting dug out, but into the sole area...but i guess it is possible that the hoof wall got weakened...
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 12, 2007 - 10:49 pm:
Diane, I'm of the opinion that when the WL was dug into it separated the wall and as healthy hoof grows out he won't continue to have this problem. I'll be interested to see what Dr.O and your farrier have to say.
Re: the wet to dry. Our farrier and vet have both said that where we live a lot of horses go from flooded fields to very dry, hard clay like dirt because a lot of people flood irrigate here. This, according to them, is hard on the horses hooves. I don't think going from wet to dry like you would with rain wetting a field would cause any problems unless the field were flooded for awhile. Just my opinions from what I've seen and been told.
I'm glad your farrier is coming. You are understandably on such "pins and needles" re: feet with this guy. I wish you could just buy him some baggies to tape on and forget him; you need a break!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 12, 2007 - 11:08 pm:
Thanks the digging was done about 3 weeks ago and he did take quite a bit of the white line out, starting about where the crack is. It did separate the wall quite a bit. He did not dig into the sole just the white line. His white line wasn't really "chalky" but there was a black thrush like ring going around it and it was pretty deep. The weird thing was he had a rubber band type thing and it was stretched white line. You could pull it up and it would snap right back very weird. Has anyone ever seen that? The vet said he hadn't.
I too will be curious what Dr.O. thinks. I hope it is just a small bump in his recovery...he's been so sound I knew something had to go wrong. I do wonder too if shoes would be a good idea until it grows out. Thanks
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 12, 2007 - 11:52 pm:
Here is a pic of his back hooves 1 week BEFORE his last rim are they really that bad looking before the vet dug? Considering all his problems
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Monday, Aug 13, 2007 - 2:47 am:
Diane, my horse had a nasty vertical crack in her front toe a few weeks ago, and it looked a little like Hank's in the first pics - as if the wall was trying to lift up. The farrier said it was seedy toe (like your farrier he thinks it's the same as WLD) and cut a triangle out. I'm putting betadine in the hole daily, and she seems fine. Never was lame on it. It's small, though, compared to Hank's.
She had a very slight crack in the other front toe too, which he also cut out.
I told him that she'd had the same problem some years ago, and he said that some horses have a slight "bump" in their coffin bones which makes them prone to have chronic seedy toe, and it's no big thing. Is this true DrO??
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Aug 13, 2007 - 8:09 am:
Hello Diane,
This appears to be a simple, traumatically induced break but may have been contributed to by lack of support by the horny laminae behind it. What you see in the back of the defect is the insensitive laminae which does appear to be degenerated but this is unclear. The wall around the defect needs to be cut / rasped back to where it has a healthy attachment to the surrounding horn. As this is done the tissues need to be assessed for possible WLD.
LL, I am not sure I understand what your farrier is saying but I am unaware of a bump in the coffin bone that leads to persistent seedy toe.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Aug 13, 2007 - 8:33 am:
Thanks Dr.O. If we don't find any WLD should he have shoes put on for riding, or shouldn't I ride until it is grown out? Also the next 6in of rain is due tomorrow does this need to be kept dry? Should I wrap it when it is muddy? Thanks
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Member:
mysi
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Posted on Monday, Aug 13, 2007 - 10:26 am:
Diane- I didn't put hind shoes on Moose because of that but yes it did alleviate that problem. Moose had never been in shoes before I bought him at 12. I had him for about a year and we had to put him in front shoes due to him wearing them down too fast. Then about 6 months ago I had to put him in hind shoes after a stifle injury as he was wearing really bad on the outside so the shoes stabilized his hind end (and that it did). It also resolved the chipping issue. I completely understand not wanting to put a horse in shoes if unnecessary. In my case the farrier felt it was unnecessary for the chips/breaks. Your situation could be different as I read Dr. O did have concerns with the underlying structures. I'll keep my fingers crossed that it's noting serious.
Best Wishes - Melissa
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 15, 2007 - 8:11 am:
If the farrier can get a stable shoe on the foot I see no problem with riding.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 15, 2007 - 8:37 am:
Thanks Dr.O. the farrier got it cleaned up well, however this morning he seems very sore on it. It did not appear as tho he had WLD. There in no heat or pulse in it at this time. I did give him some bute this morning. Finally get the fronts sound and now this. If he doesn't show improvement in the next few days I think he will need shoes on the hind...I hope not.
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 15, 2007 - 10:57 am:
Oh geez Diane! I'm sorry... hoping Hank feels better soon!!
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 15, 2007 - 10:59 am:
Diane, my horses crack was the same as yours. I am staying barefoot. I am keeping a wax mix on the walls to keep dryness away and I paint durasole on the sole. It toughens better than anything I have ever seen. It was recommended to me by the barefoot endurance site. Miracle stuff. Plus please remember that dry hooves can crack with shoes still. And worse then they lose a shoe and you will have an even more ouchy horse.
Just my thoughts.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 15, 2007 - 6:04 pm:
Looking at the photos and hearing about the various problems, I sincerely must wonder whether this horse's feet are properly balanced laterally and medially. If so, shoes will help short term but not solve the problem.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 15, 2007 - 6:55 pm:
I think his major problem is he foundered and has thin soles now I am dealing with the fall out.
The farrier has been doing a pretty good job, Hank has a difficult foot to deal with, that has gone thru a lot of "trauma" the last 6 mos. His new growth is coming in very good and we are trying to keep it going the right direction. The rt. rear pictured above is kind of out of balance now because he lost a good chunk on one side. As it grows back I think it will be fine. Honestly I am not sure it is his foot bothering him, no heat or pulse and that is the side he has stifle issues on since he was very young. It may have gotten sore while being trimmed. I am going to leave him barefoot behind until I have time and better weather to determine what is sore for sure. Thanks
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 19, 2007 - 9:54 am:
Now what? Got my vet bill yesterday and the left rear diagnosis was sub solar abscess and the rt. rear (pictured above) was diagnosed as white line disease. Vet never said that to me!
The farrier cut and rasped away the diseased horn and the rest seemed to be ok, but I didn't pay real close attention. He has been "off" since the trimming. It has been raining "buckets" and of course his hoof is muddy and wet. I have been cleaning and drying it nightly and putting strong iodine on his sole and the remaining "hoof wall".
They are locked in the dry lean-to at the moment. Should this hoof be wrapped for turn out? The WLD appears to be gone. Matter a fact his white line and wall is gone on that side!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Aug 20, 2007 - 5:54 am:
Hello Diane,
You should now treat the good horn as described in the article on white line disease in the Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » section.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Aug 20, 2007 - 7:07 am:
Thanks Dr.O. I did read the article. I didn't open my bill until yesterday and Hank has been tramping around in the mud for a few days. I got it as clean as possible and it really does look good, there are no cavities in his hoof for mud to get in....the farrier rasped it all smooth.
When the vet dug it all out he never told me to treat him as if he had WLD, he told me to soak it in epsom salt. The way he talked the day he examined him I thought it was an abscess.
Your article doesn't really address turnout. It does say to keep it dry. It has been raining and is suppose to continue to rain all week. How do I turn him out in the mud? wrap it? or keep him stalled until it is dry out (which he won't appreciate). I will call the vet and see what exactly his diagnosis was! Hank is "off" on hard ground, but on soft ground he is 100%. The farrier didn't think it was WLD, he thought the separation above was caused by the vets digging and the wall pulling away. It did clean up nice and what is left is good solid wall, he is walking on his sole on that side. I suppose that is why he is "off" on hard ground. Thanks
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Member:
srobert
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Posted on Monday, Aug 20, 2007 - 9:42 am:
Good Morning: Until Dr. O responds, all I can tell you is if this is WLD - and you want to get rid of it as quickly as possible and keep it away - stay from ANY moisture. We did stall our horse nearly 24/7 unless there was absolutely no chance of getting his feet wet. No turnout at all if it is muddy. In fact, he only went out AFTER the dew had dried on the grass. If they did get wet, I would dry carefully and disinfect immediately. DRY is your friend - WET is the enemy! If the feet are wet you are providing the environment that supports more WLD. Yeah - its a pain, but it was worth it in the long run.
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Member:
hpyhaulr
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Posted on Monday, Aug 20, 2007 - 9:56 am:
someone had, in the past, suggest a toddler's diaper called SWIMEES for protecting the hoof... I bought 4 packs the other day as they will disappear fromt he shelves shortly for the year.... there are too many opportunities for wet to be the enemy of the hoof during the rest of the year. WHo knows??? We may even get rain again some day when I least need or expect it!!!!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Aug 20, 2007 - 3:25 pm:
Well talked to the vet and he said it was seedy toe, but he calls seedy toe and WLD the same thing... sigh.
From what I saw him dig out it didn't seem to fit the WLD description. under the stretched white line there was a solid BLACK line going around that side of his hoof, but I have never seen seedy toe like that either. I guess either way it seems to be gone! The lean to lock in didn't keep his feet dry because of the blowing wind. I wouldn't think it would be a good Idea to wrap it. When I wrapped for his founder his sole and whiteline would get boggy just from hoof moisture. I really don't know what to think, at this point I am cleaning his hoof every night and putting iodine on his sole and where the hoof wall is missing.
I did let him out between rain storms. I will see if I can get a clean pic of it..maybe that would help give Dr.O. an idea on how I should treat this....if at all. My vet said I didn't need to do anything and leave him out.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Aug 20, 2007 - 4:47 pm:
OK here is pics of it. Dr.O. I know you can't tell from pictures what exactly this is. There is no gap I can feel in his wall. He is walking much better on hard ground now. Any ideas at all? Is there anything in the pics that concern you? Thanks
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Monday, Aug 20, 2007 - 6:44 pm:
Diane the crack looks just like mine after filing. Gosh he has a nice big frog. His feet do look soft. Dont put too much iodine on the frog or it will dry up too much and shrivel. Barefoot people would love there horses to have a frog like that. I have heard great results from 2oz lysol in a gallon of water soaked for 30 minutes 3 times a week to get rid of white line, seedy toe thruch etc etc. Never tried it though. Good luck with what you are doing. I am treating mine as well just in case.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Aug 20, 2007 - 7:43 pm:
Thanks Katrina, I am not putting the iodine on the frog...just on the sole and the part that is missing the wall. It won't stop raining here and their feet are getting soft. The grass is growing like it is spring, so they are back on very limited turnout.
I actually decided to buy a hoof nippers and rasp so I can keep after that crack if I have to.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Aug 20, 2007 - 8:11 pm:
One more question can I ride Hank with his hoof like that? I was hoping soft ground would be ok until the crack is gone and the wall has grown back. Thanks
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Monday, Aug 20, 2007 - 9:00 pm:
I am, never stopped. He is a little tender on that side being that he is walking on sole also. Mine has tough feet. Maybe the iodine will toughen yours up.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Monday, Aug 20, 2007 - 9:42 pm:
For WLD suggest you look for the product Clean Trax. There are loads of sites (do a search) that tell about the product and believe that you only need to soak one time for effectiveness. Equine podiatrist KC LaFierre developed the product, I believe, and it is being used around the world with great success.
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Monday, Aug 20, 2007 - 11:23 pm:
Wow, Diane, his frogs DO look great! I don't think Brave's will ever look like that! I second Vicki's suggestion, here's a link:
https://www.equinepodiatry.net/hoof_care.html
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 21, 2007 - 7:12 am:
Remember Hank won't soak . If it was a front hoof i would consider it, but I'd probably get my head kicked in trying to do a back hoof....for as long as you have to soak with that.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 21, 2007 - 7:31 am:
In general horses do best when pastured vs stalled Diane, but if there is WLD the foot should be kept clean and dry until the infection eliminated. It it is dry outside the pasture will be fine, I don't know of any way to wrap it so that it will stay dry in wet, muddy conditions. However it is beginning to sound like your horse may not have WLD from your description.
DrO
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Member:
annes
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 21, 2007 - 11:38 am:
Diane, will he soak in a medicine boot? I have not re-read your earlier posts so maybe you mentioned that he wouldn't do that either. Just a thought...
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 22, 2007 - 7:20 am:
Dr.O. would it be ok to ride Hank on soft ground? He isn't "off" anymore on that hoof. He even seems ok on hard ground, but I am afraid I could encourage that crack to get worse or bruise his sole.
Ann the soaking boot is what caused him to not like soaking. I had it on once and it sloshed and scared him...broke the halter and ran sideways down the road with it chasing him. Since then soaking has been....welll interesting.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Aug 24, 2007 - 7:41 am:
Diane, if you have good reason to suspect that riding may worsen the crack or bruise the sole I don't have any contravening information to say this is not true. If you are uncertain, I would engage the farrier and/or veterinarian who last examined the foot, they will be far better at judging this.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Aug 24, 2007 - 8:45 am:
Thanks Dr.O. I haven't any reason for anything with this horse! . It has been raining so much I can't ride anyway, but we are suppose to have a nice weekend and the ground will be soft so I guess I will try him out. When I had talked to the vet he said to do whatever I want he'd be fine either way.(big help). Hank just has me too paranoid now I think.
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