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Discussion on Is this a symptom of sore hocks?
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Sunday, May 16, 2004 - 4:52 pm:
Hello Dr. O and all,
I have a horse of course with bone spavin in his hocks and caudal heel pain in his front feet.
He does have underrun heels on all four feet. Farrier is keeping toes short and rockered and shoes on front feet with extra support in the heels.
What I do notice on a regular basis is that my horse will stand parked out like a rocking horse. I have also noticed that he likes to lean his butt against the fence for support.
I do have the vet coming out Thursday for yet another lameness exam, but I was wondering if the parking out stance and leaning his butt on the fence is a symptom of hock soreness? Should I be looking for something else?
I will be discussing these symptoms with my vet, but I am hoping to gather some more insight for this troubling symptom.
Hope you can help,
Susan B.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 7:03 am:
Parking out of the front feet is usually a sign associated with founder however the back feet are usually up under the horse. I do think this horse is trying to find a more comfortable position.
DrO
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 10:56 am:
Thanks Dr.O,
Usually my horse will put his front feet out slightly when he first gets up from lying down.
I always check him for pulses and can't seem to find anything elevated. His feed has been changed from timothy hay to alfalfa cubes because of heaves. I am still searching for a good grass forage cube.
He was treated about a month ago with Azium and Ventipulmin for heaves. This soreness or stiffness seamed to improve with the Azium and it was present before the heaves medications.
I am beginning to wonder if this is mild tying up episodes.
Would checking my horse for elevated muscle enzymes be useful at this point?
I will have my vet start with the nerve blocks from the feet up and go from there, but this has been very frustrating in terms of shouldn't his hocks have fused by now.
Hope you can help.
Susan B.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 11:21 am:
Hi Susan,
You poor thing....they just love to drive us crazy don't they (;)
Here in California, they don't cube grass hay, it doesn't stick, however they DO have grass/alfalfa cubes...maybe you could look for those?
While I don't know the details of Laser's problems, on the hocks fusing...unfortunately, I've heard that the fusion process varies from horse to horse...Dr. O will correct me if I'm wrong on this.
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 12:46 pm:
Hi Aileen,
Yes.... they do drive us crazy! A riding instructor and friend told me that most horse people are nuts. I guess we all come by this honestly  .
I did find a source for alfalfa/timothy cubes but was not really satisfied with the guaranteed analysis that the girl gave me over the phone.
She said the cubes were 13% protein and I asked from what and she said timothy alfalfa mix. I did inquire as to what the other ingredients were and she said that the Total Digestible Nutrients were 55%. So what is the other 45%? Dryer fluff maybe?
I have been reading the articles on hock fusion/arthrodesis and have discovered that maybe hock injections would be slowing down this process? He has had his hocks injected 3 times with cortisone, antibiotic and something else mixture.
On another note, the manufacturing of horse cubes has been another learning experience for me. With heaves and possibly laminitis, I am getting very picky about what he eats.
Will wait on Dr.O for comment on fusing and muscle enzymes.
Thanks Aileen 
Susan B.
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 2:16 pm:
Susan,
Check out Denge Hi Fi. Excellent heat cured chopped hay (they have an alfalfa mix, too). It is dust and mold free and horses love it. There are other brands, too--Nutrena also makes a good one. Ask your feed store aobut it.
Best of Luck. Erika
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 5:09 pm:
Thanks Erika,
I am limited to Canadian sources sooooo.....the cost of shipping/handling and not to mention the ordeal of getting it over the border is beyond my reach.
I will keep searching.....
Susan B.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, May 18, 2004 - 7:46 am:
There is nothing in your posts that make me think tying up particularly Susan but let the vets history and physical exam direct further testing.
DrO
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Tuesday, May 18, 2004 - 10:06 am:
Hi Susan,
I'm thinking about injecting Brave's hocks, then treat with Adequan IM...hmmmm...slowing down the process doesn't sound good to me AT ALL. Where did you read that it might?
He's going sound now and is a happy boy...rode him yesterday after being off for a month and he was the perfect gentleman! He took the correct leads and everything...so I'm sure he's feeling pretty good (;)
I'm wishing the same for you and Laser!!
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Tuesday, May 18, 2004 - 10:59 am:
Hi Aileen,
If you go to the top of this page and click on Diseases of Joints, then scroll down to Arthrodesis and Joint Fusion for Arthritis. It is in this article under Indications that this is stated for natural fusion. Excercise is good for Brave, but don't do anything silly....I know you won't.
Laser's hocks were injected last fall with some improvement, I think, but then winter set in with a vengeance and limited riding and excercise.
I think your plan of IM Adequan is good, but I read somewhere else that the Intrarticular injections were creating problems.
What Laser got in his hocks was a cocktail of cortisone, antibiotic and possibly hyaluronic acid. I am going to ask on Thursday when the vet comes out.
Laser has also had IV injections of Map 5, which is an equivalent to Legend.
I am hoping his diet change to cubes, which we are doing slowly hasn't upset his tummy... .
Laser is going to get a full going over by the vet as this seems to be an on again off again lameness. It is frustrating because, I am wondering if these symptoms are from the same old diagnosis or if there is something new developing or that hasn't been found.
I can't wait until Thursday....
Thank you for your good wishes Aileen and I am glad to hear your boy is well, must be those new shoes that have kicked in (pardon the pun)
Susan and Laser
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Tuesday, May 18, 2004 - 11:21 am:
Hi Susan,
No I won't do anything silly, but the poor guy is raring to go off property. I've just worked him in my arena...just to be sure...you know, paranoid (;). I think that whatever was wrong with his feet (road founder or bruising or whatever) must of grown out, it just took two shoeings to do it. OR it was his hocks giving him issues and instead of his left front, it was his right hind....who knows!
Are you getting xrays? I still haven't gotten a response from the other vet on the xrays...but my friend knows this vet really well and said he would have called if something needed to be changed. However, I WILL be hounding him come the end of this week (;)
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Tuesday, May 18, 2004 - 1:31 pm:
Hi Aileen,
I think Brave and Laser surely have to be related...LOL.
Yes, I will get X-Rays if nerve blocking produces something.
I hope I don't have to pull his front shoes for this, he just had them done 10 days ago.
I hear ya about wondering if the front end is sore or the back end is sore causing all this grief.
When riding Laser, he tends to be front ended. Is that because his hocks are sore sooo....he uses his front end more to get around causing pain up there as well.
It seems like a vi
cious cycle.
I am going to see if I can get a picture of him standing like he does from time to time and post.
It is difficult to decide where to post these symptoms as there are a bunch of things going on. Maybe we need a general body soreness section...hehe.
Depending on the X-Rays taken on Brave, would they be able to assist your farrier in shoeing? Perhaps that might be a good reason to prompt your vet for some results.
My vet and her students are certainly going to get an earful Thursday.
It's funny that these problems seem to manifest themselves in the spring. Is Laser so smart that he knows how to get out of work? 
As of just now a report from his barn mom, is there is no change. So, he isn't getting any worse. This founder stance if that is what it is, does have me worried.
Will be checking him later today.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 7:36 am:
Concerning the fusing Susan, it is a very variable process that only can be followed crudely with radiographs. I have seen joints that radiographically looked fused but there was still pain in the joint, and others that radiographically did not look completely fused but the horse had come sound after years of DJD in the joint. Be patient and yes I believe the antiinflammatory drugs will slow down the process but do what you have to do to keep him comfortable as possible when ridden.
DrO
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 10:12 am:
Thanks Dr.O,
I am a little confused. Would nerve blocking be more definitive than X-Rays? Laser does have a visible bony distention in his right hock, lower joint. When we were first seeing this problem 2 years ago, there was a definite hitch in his right hind and he walked like he had a diaper on. He no longer walks like this and tracks up much better in the hind. There is still I think, a definite hip hike in the hind end, hence a new evaluation. He is getting a little fussy when the farrier picks up his hind feet for trimming. I would just like to clarify by what you mean by antiinflammatory drugs slowing down the fusing process. Do you mean the intrarticular injections or oral phenylbutizone slowing down this process?
Right now he is not on any medication or pain killers, because the vet is coming for evaluation.
Thanks for answering my questions.
Susan B.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 6:45 am:
For localizing the pain, yes intraarticular anesthesia is much more sensitive at localizing pain. What we know and conjecture about the potenetial long term effects of all the antiinflammatory drugs used in arthritis is explained in the article on arthritis.
DrO
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 12:01 pm:
An update on the vet visit yesterday. After poking, flexing, prodding and some running up and down the arena, My vet has come up with nothing new. In fact, he was in the nicest condition she has ever seen him. Moving very well and full of beans. Is it the new diet of alfalfa cubes giving him more energy, his recent shoe reset or because the weather is cool and there are no bugs yet?
The prescription my vet gave me is to warm him up slow and to take him up and down the ditches along the country roads. We will maintain his joint health with Map 5 IV (Legend) every 6 to 8 weeks and start him on an oral joint supplement. I can give him Bute for the sore days. We will save the hock joint injections for when he gets really bad. I asked about the joint injections slowing down the fusing process and my vet said they will actually speed up the process because the horse is moving better and more freely. We ruled out laminitis and founder because of the way he was standing. I explained that he usually does this when he gets up from lying down but will walk himself out of it. She explained that the parking out stance is a way for him to take the weight off his heels. His recent shoe reset has better support in the heels and he has been getting steadily better with them. He still has issues in the right fore, related to the heels and issues in his right hind hock, visible bone spavin. I understand these are conditions we can't cure but there are a lot of things we can do for him to make this fusing process more comfortable. Sooo...we have a reasonably clean bill of health, given his pathologies and we will just pay scrupulous attention to his diet, feet and medications.
Thanks Dr.O
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