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  Discussion on Laminitis-Founder Mare with foal at side
Author Message
Member:
Deggert

Posted on Thursday, Jun 3, 2004 - 12:47 pm:

Hi Dr. O
I decided to re-post with new updates and any thoughts are appreciated. To re-cap:
my pregannt mare is having complications from a sore foot over the last 8 weeks. She has a healing crack around the frog that my farrier supported with a shoe called the Tennis shoe (alum core with plastic tread in a egg bar design). Long story short, When the baby arrived, in her effort to stay no further than 12 inches from him at all times, she beat her good foot up trying to keep up with him. in a 24 by 15 foaling stall. In hindsight, I realize she has been compensating for quite a while. 3 days post foaling I realized she was using the bad foot and the good foot was very sore. X rays show 3 degrees rotation in the cracked foot and 5 degrees in the right, which was her good foot. He searched lightly for abscesses yesterday just in case but nothing turned up so far. Ketofen on the first day did little to alleviate her pain. We tried ketofen because it apparently is not transferred to the milk. Yesterday we put her on Bute, DMSO IV, Ace, The vet did not want to use
Nitro for the sake of the foal, Could it be damaging to the foal? I read all the articles and they were very informative, esp on rehab. I hope she is through rotating and stays where she is.
The regimen yesterday greatly improved her comfort. The 5 degree foot has the "BLue foam"
and we left her tennis shoe on the other being that frog pressure on the cracked frog created a lot of pain when we shod her with equithane a few weeks ago. We dont need any more pain at this point and this is her supporting foot at this time. Last night after the current treatments she was weight bearing on the bad foot most of the time and her demeanor was improved - walking to the water bucket. Its very hard with an active foal that I was hoping we could turn out in a bigger paddock, but not at this point. She would follow him around regardless of pain.
Any comments, suggestions or experiences welcome. This is a very scary disease with so many gray areas in diagnosis, treatments and most scary is prognosis as we won't know for a while if she has stopped rotating. She is on the fat side which we are addressing probably body condition of 7.
In your articles you mention high Ca and protein,
Also, the article mentioned good clearance from the tip of P3 to the sole, what is good? I believe she has .5 inch. Again, we don't know when the rotation occured, over the last 6 day, 6 weeks or years. This is alot of info, sorry for the loooong post.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Jun 4, 2004 - 8:54 am:

Concerning what is good clearance this has to be evaluated depending on technique: the pictures have magnification and distortions depending on distance from the plate when exposed and angle of the shot. It can be a subjective evaluation unless the shot is very standardized.

The problem with the nitro is we do not have any research into whether this may be detrimental to the foal and considering the experimental nature I agree with your vet, I would only use it if the founder proves to be worsening.
DrO
Member:
Deggert

Posted on Friday, Jun 4, 2004 - 11:30 am:

Thank you for the comments Dr.O and I agree the radiographs in the field are tough and dodging a foal to boot! She is still improving, she wants to move about the pen more and not pointing as much and weight bearing quite a bit of the time.
We put the foal on Ranitidine, I can find articles on foal ulcers but nothing about the incidence of ulcers from mares milk. I am going to ask my vet today, but how about Prolosec otc?
It is gastrogard I believe, omperazole?(sp) I wonder if this would be the best preventative. Is lip curling in foals of any significance, he is eating well and does not roll on his back but are there any definite early symptoms of tummy upset? Also, due to the mares slight fleshy condition we have decreased her alfalfa to about
3 lbs a day and she has access to bermuda and orchard ad lib ( but she eats this but more of a grazing type eating) She is also getting Triple Crown Lite as she has through this last year. Its made for horses on decreased calories, no sugar and restricted grain. Highly fortified with vit and minerals and you only feed 2 lbs a day. Thanks again
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Jun 5, 2004 - 8:54 am:

Hello Debbie,
For the early symptoms and best treatment (which would also be the best preventive) of ulcers in foals see Equine Diseases » Colic and GI Diseases » Gastric Ulcers >> Gastric Ulcers in Foals.
DrO
Member:
Deggert

Posted on Monday, Jun 7, 2004 - 12:01 pm:

Hello Dr. O
Foal seems fine so far. Mare has been on bute for 6 days. 4 grams the first 2 days then 3 since then. The dr. is coming to re check her today. I have seen a steady improvement in that she is weight bearing on the bad foot 99 percent of the time. She sometimes shifts weight but when she walks around the stall she does put weight on it. WE are using the blue foam pads on the bad foot. I added a pad on Friday evening ( its Monday now) left the old smashed one in place. She actually was pretty comfortable on the collapsed one but we know she needs more protection. PUt on the the new one which is now 2 inches in height. It seems the biomechanics alone make it a little deceiving as to how she is walking or standing in that she has this huge "thing" on. She compressed it somewhat by the next day but the heel was still very high. I think the angle forces her on her toe (ouch) Yesterday we took it off and trimmed it to the old pad and we also trimmed the heel down from 1 3/4 inches to about 1 1/4 evevation. Taped it back on and I think she was more comfortable. Anybody have experience with this? I know each case of laminitis-founder is individual. Any cases out there of primarily single leg laminitis?
I think the DR will have me cut her back again on Bute, she is on Ace. Any neutraceuticals you would recommend? She is on an extra 5000 E , MSM
Glutithione (Immusyn by Vita Flex)Thyro L (from about 2 mg to 4-5, 1/3 of the little blue scoop)
Forco a prebiotic, 2lbs of Triple Crown Lite and
4-5 lbs of alfalfa and 6 lbs of mixed bermuda and orchard. So far, even lactating, she is maintaining her weight. Ideally she is going to lose about 50 lbs eventually. Thanks, anybody who has experience with this. Baby is doing great, the confinement is a little hard on him but he is speeding around the stall to expend energy.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 8, 2004 - 6:57 am:

Founder in a single foot should be continually examined and probed for more common causes of moderate to severe lameness that localizes to the foot and toe in particular.

Have you read our comments about the diagnosis of hypothyroidism in easy keeping older horses, most of these are more likely suffering from Equine Metabolic SynDrOme, see Diseaeses >> Endocrine for more. Also both the MSM and glutathione are at best experimental for this condition and I do not know of any scientific work to support their use here.
DrO
Member:
Deggert

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 8, 2004 - 12:09 pm:

Dr. O
We are continually examing her foot, we re-xayed yesterday, and I am waiting to hear results. From everything I have read single leg lameness is almost always from excessive weight bearing on the good leg. I know you have alot of posts so in recap we have been treating a cracked frog in the other foot for 8 weeks. Supportive shoes and limited bute as she was due to foal. I have learned a hard lesson about supporting leg and hoof strain. I will get some weight off of her but she does not appear classic hypothyroid, Trying to ascertain if she has peripheral cushings or EMS during a laminitic attack is not good right now, but I did take her and the other horses off any sugary products over a year ago. She does not get grain but Triple Crown LIte. The small amount of thyroid she is on was started after she lost a 60 day pregancy 2 years ago. I know that is controversial and "unproven" also.
I did just get great news from my vet that she has not rotated over the 5 degrees we saw 7 days ago. She is very comfortable in the gel booty he formed to her foot yesterday. Thanks for the info, I will put a quote down from another good friend and veterinarian regarding equine medicine and scientific data. Msm and glutathion are respectively antiinflammatory and antioxidant, free radical scavenger, sounds good to me and they cannot hurt. Have a great day!
"The main reason for the lack of scientific studies is MONEY!!!!! There are no drug companies that will support this kind of research. The other problem is TIME. Most people who practice do not have time to do research. They do it as they go through their daily practice just like we do with other stuff. The Mineral oil has no scientific backing what so ever. Oh yes, it has been given for years - that does not hold water when it comes to scientific results are concerned. Heck, acupuncture on horses has been used for many more years and oh by the way, they have been adjusting horses for close to 100 years. The first chiropractors did chiropractic on horses (and other animals) to debulk the claim of "placebo effect" in humans. Neither Banamine nor lactated ringers have been approved for colic. So, if a vet. wants to "scientifically" treat a horse for colic, they can only come out and do an examination on the horse and either wait to worm it or put it to sleep.(these 2 have been tested with double blind studies) Oh by the way, he can not sit there with the owner and pray that the horse gets better because that has no scientific proof either!"
Have a good one!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 9, 2004 - 7:38 am:

You paint a fairly bleak, and inaccurate, view of the current state of equine medicine Debbie. The beneficial effects of IV fluids and Banamine in horses is well established and the effect of mineral oil on fecal consistency and bowel transit time are also well established along with its ability to decrease absorption of some toxins. As for prayer, I know it helps me and I will pray for your horse too.
DrO
Member:
Deggert

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 9, 2004 - 12:15 pm:

Dr. O
Thanks for your prayers and I believe with the great veterinary care she has had, my prayers, and my husband's and my vigilance in care, my mare's prognosis is looking good.
I know its not guaranteed but the lack of any more rotation in 7 days was great news. She is bright, eating and walking on the foot, taking good steps and then lame step esp. if she hits unveven ground. I hope my excerpt from my veterinarian friend did not sound bleak, we are all quite the opposite. He has a great practice and also is highly involved in acupunture and chiropractics and sports dentistry and he has spoken at the AAEP and internationally quite often, his point was that a large majority of what is used on horses in not "scientifically" proven, its proven in the field, especially for him who uses conventional medicine and alternative therapies when needed. When I add neutriceuticals I always check with my vets first, but I do believe as horse owners we have to do some of our own research. The horse community, including veterinarians, is a hopeful and helpful group, i.e. this site is an example. People share experiences and they are not all text book, but little things that work. Particularly when we are desperate to save a horse, we find ourselves pushing the envelope, searching the internet and being an active participant in the outcome. ( I found alot of articles on MSM, Glutathioan Vit e etc as free radical scavengers and antioxidants being helpful in a disease process such as founder) The vet on this case said the good vibes pass to the horse and who knows, maybe it helps. Thanks again for your prayers, the picture is looking brighter.
Debbie
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 9, 2004 - 9:32 pm:

The problem with proof in the field Debbie is that it is no proof at all: after all a thousand years of such proof was used to justify bleeding patients and giving what we know now are very toxic substances for treatment. It was not until the scientific method was started that medicine began to move forward.

Concerning glutathione and MSM though there are many lay articles that postulate such possible effects there are no clinical studies (at least in the largest scientific/medical/veterinary database in the world) in horses suggesting any beneficial clinical effect from the supplementation of these chemicals in horses. I could say the same for all species except for the one, and only one, article in an alternative medicine journal on treating allergies with MSM. But the results were not conclusive there either and it was suggested a effect may be demonstrable in a larger study.

On the other hand, neither chemical appear to be very dangerous. I do not believe you are doing harm, except to perhaps your pocketbook. You can choose to ignore this and I always advise members to not stop anything that you really think is helping. After all science tells me, I could be wrong. If you are interested in more discussions on this topic see, Member's Services » The Lounge: Kick back and relax. » Alternative Medicine and Epistomology.
DrO
Member:
Deggert

Posted on Thursday, Jun 24, 2004 - 7:13 pm:

Dr. O
Since this mare is at 4 weeks lactation and dealing with her laminitis/founder in the front foot, I have found no articles on how I can address her nutritional needs. She has lost weight and is in a 5.5 or 6 body condition and losing slowly. Won't she give all to her milk and then whats left over for herself and healing her foot? I have her on 5-6 lbs of alfalfa and same of orchard. In addition she gets 2-3 lbs of Triple Crown Lite.(high in Vts and Minerals.) I Know this is way below what most mares would be eating during lactation. Help, I am afraid I am starving her or her milk, although the foal looks fat and happy Thanks ahead
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Jun 25, 2004 - 7:56 am:

It is not unusual for lactating mares to loose weight the first 2 months of lactation but if the cause of the founder is controlled it will continue to heal with a balanced diet.

The weight loss is a benefit for the foundered foot: it is less stress on the laminae. Since your founder is not related to metabolic problems I recommend you feed her just like you would any lactating mare with an eye to keeping her condition on the light side of a 6: 5.5 sounds just right. If that is where she is and she is still loosing you should increase the amount of alfalfa by a couple of lbs. twice daily to slow the loss, the demands on her will continue to grow through the second month before leveling off as the foal starts taking more feed. So without adjustment this is likely to get worse before this gets better.
DrO
Member:
Deggert

Posted on Friday, Aug 6, 2004 - 1:39 pm:

Dr. O.
I wanted to update and get any feedback if possible. I re-read the founder articles. The mare is in a 5 or maybe 6 body condition. 2 months post foaling and laminitis founder. Baby is a hulk so he is getting plenty. She continued to improve barefoot and at 8 weeks she is still on 1 gram of bute a day. Her last x-rays were 4 weeks ago and she had not changed from original set. She does have some coronary depression in the front of the foot. Spoke to my vet and we decided to try a shoe on her. Barefoot she is moving well but not perfectly sound, if she hits a hard spot or very uneven ground she will flinch. I have a lot of faith in my farrier and she said lets start simple, if needed we can get into more creative shoes. She glued a steel shoe and put in 4 small nails, setting the shoe to just in front of p3, rolled toe and extending out the back a normal amount for heel support. We
took a little toe off and just leveled the foot med/lat because she tends to stand with her weight on the inside quarter. She seemed comfortable with the shoe on for a few days, she was at least as comfortable as barefoot and maybe slightly better. After about 3-4 days, she seemed to be winging it a bit, she will walk pretty good in a straight line but sometimes she will try to use her toe. Farrier is coming again tomorrow and I have a call in to my vet. I also tried lower bute to half a pill but in one day she was a little uncomfortable. Put her back on 1 gram. Should we try to take the stress off the walls, do you think at 9 weeks post founder with about 5-6 degrees rotation that she is within normal... if there is such a thing. 9 weeks of bute is a long time. Baby and her are still on ranitidine. Any thoughts on this would be great. I know in all I have read and heard that each case is different. We all agree that she probably had some late gestational low grade laminitis going on, like a metabolic synDrOme, and then the cracked frog and then the supporting leg issue. I believe those issues are addressed with diet, no sugar, small amt of thyroid supp.
ps. I read bute can suppress t-3 t-4. Thanks ahead for your input.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Aug 8, 2004 - 11:04 am:

1 gram of bute daily in a normal size horse should be well tolerated. You are right, "every founder is different" so there are no hard time rules. 6 degrees of rotation is a lot of damage however and the fact the horse is still tender is no surprise.

Without examing the horse I cannot guess at what may need to be done Debbie, the winging does not suggest pain on weight bearing to me but a change is foot flight, possibly do to the way the foot contacts the ground as it lands and leaves during a gait.
DrO
Member:
Deggert

Posted on Monday, Aug 9, 2004 - 2:23 pm:

Thanks Dr O
Saturday the farrier took her shoe off, walking her before hand on hard ground to see how bad. Ouch! She creates med/lat imbalance in one week even with a shoe on. She tends to weight the inside quarter and the outside gets long or the inside jams up into the coronet? We saw some bruising at the point of p3 when she (farrier) trimmed the toe back a little. We taped her in a Lilly pad for now as we thought a little heel elvation and frog support might help instead of barefoot, at least till the soreness caused by the shoe is relieved. Still on 1 gram. Turning is difficult but walking straight is ok. I think she wings it some so she doesn't roll over at the toe. Does that sound logical? She still has cup in the bottom of her foot, But spoke to my vet today and I think we will re-xray just to see where she is. I saw the new laminitis post from Jan. Its so frustrating because we want to know the outcome but time and care are all you can do till the foot shows us how bad it is.
When I read the shoeing portion you mention when the horse is sound then de-rotation can begin. In your experience are we prematurely trying to put her in a shoe when the foot is just not stable enough? Or how do you feel about the sole support systems like on horseshoes.com? Also, I know this is a hard question but can the foot recover with alot of damage to the circulation or can that repair itself. Can the attachments at the heel and quarters support the foot if so much has been damaged at the toe? She has not had abscesses like Jans horse, at least nothing yet.
thank you for any info
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 10, 2004 - 10:30 am:

I know it is frustrating but patience and time will be rewarded. I can't really tell why she wings but the important thing is she is still lame. If you are attempting to derotate while still painful, yes you are starting to early. Yes a foot can make a substantial recovery from mild to moderate rotational damage if the cause of the founder is controlled.
DrO
Member:
Deggert

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 11, 2004 - 1:17 pm:

Dr O
Thanks Dr O, if patience and diligence are rewarded she will be ok, I know there is no guarantees. I had to remove the Lilly pad to change the tape and air out yesterday. She seemed as happy without it and I pressed on the foot and the only response is in the frog area esp. when I squeezed her heels together. Its such a guess but I left the pad off and let her be barefoot last night. You had mentioned you aren't a fan of frog support. Can you elaborate a little. My vet is coming tomorrow to recheck and re xray to make sure things are stable. She has not returned to her previous comfort level when barefoot since we put a shoe on it about 12 days ago. It was a plain shoe set back but if her lamina are still loose the foot can't be supported by the hoof capsule can it? and either she doesn't like frog support or the heel is sore for some other reason. If the DDFT in pulling would she be sore in the toe or the heel? Any thoughts, she is about 10 weeks post. She is happy otherwise, she moves around and I did not put the lilly pad back on this am. She is still in a 40x40 pen with deep shavings.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Aug 12, 2004 - 10:56 am:

I think the coffin bone is best supported evenly by the natural sole shape on soft ground. The shoe and lily pad removes support from much of the sole and shifts it to the wall or the frog respectively. The pulling by the DDF is not directly painful: it is the diseases laminae and the pressure of the tip of the coffin bone down on the solar corium that hurts. So it is the toe that hurts the worse in founder. The pictures in the article with the hot zones in red illustrate this.

I cannot safely comment on your horse in particular Debbie as I cannot examine it. But our suggestions are in the article and though we provide guidelines for application, you must consider these in light of a good exam of the horse and along with your vet and farrier decide what might be best for your horse.
DrO
Member:
Deggert

Posted on Thursday, Aug 12, 2004 - 12:22 pm:

Thanks Dr O
I think she is happier barefoot, she is better today and the soreness I palpated at the frog is better. I think we irritated the whole foot with the shoe and then the lilly pad. But she gets new xrays today, her last set was at 30 days and now she is about 70. I'll keep you posted, thanks, Debbie
Member:
Deggert

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 17, 2004 - 4:16 pm:

Dr. O
The x-ray showed the rotation to be about the same. His words were possibly a slight bit more but not remarkable, she is still in the 6+ area. He noted that p1,2,3 are in alignment with each other, but of course not with the hoof capsule. His biggest concern right now is that the tip of p3 is so close to the ground.
She had about 1/4 in on last xrays and a little less now. My farrier when she put the shoe on did pare some sole- My vet was not happy about that and we will get with her on what he wants done before we attempt a shoe again. I don't know if she was having a bad day or why she took sole.
I experimented with foam this weekend. She seems to like the foam I cut out of a saddle pad that is 1/2 inch closed cell (rubber)and I cut it to encompass the whole sole and duct taped it. It has give but also has memory. She does not like the harder foams like the blue foam or styrofoam.
Do you have any ideas or recommendations, since she still has soreness, on how to protect the sole other than what I did with the foam and the deep shavings? or ideas on how to get some sole to grow, or what impedes growth of the sole. I have been changing the pad every other day if it looks crushed, but this foam is quite hardy. it takes on a little shape in the frog area but remains spongy. She walks well on the straight line but turning in a pivot on that foot is tender. Thanks ahead, Debbie
ps her foot is not growing at the rate of her other feet. It is quite slow. Is this common?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 17, 2004 - 9:41 pm:

We offer many suggestions in the article on founder Debbie, you have to choose which fit your particular situation. It is normal for foundered feet to grow slowly for a period but other than keeping the horse as comfortable as possible there is little you can do at the level of the foot but the article does outline some nutritional ideas however to promote faster growth.
DrO
Member:
DeeDrOtt

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 18, 2004 - 10:55 am:

Hello Debbie
I have been reading your posts for a while now and have hesitated to post since I respect all veterinarian opinons - since not everything works for everyone and we all need to do what work best for us individually. Since you were still looking for some suggestions I thought I would post my story.

We have a 6 year old Hanovarian gelding that went lame on right front late summer of 2002.
X-rays showed rotation and the vet said his xrays showed signs of a foundered horse. Although he did not call him foundered he referred to him as having laminitis. Then he ran a test and put him on ThyroL. He also recommened that I read up on laminitis and founder so I would understand all that was going on. While doing this I ran across a product called LAMINA SAVER.

In the mean time the horse was on stall rest with lots and lots of bedding, special shoeing every 2 weeks, on bute and not getting much better.

I ordered the Lamina Saver, and started him on it.

Not long after we changed farriers (not because of him) and went with an amish man that took an interest in this horse. He asked if he could take him to his house pasture board him so he could keep a daily eye on him and re-shoe him every week. We agreed but he was to keep him on the Lamina Saver and the ThyroL. So he went to the Amish farm for 2 months. When he returned he was not lame. What the amish man did was square the tow (as usual), however he put the shoe on backwards. After he was home for a while a friend of ours was looking for a pasture companian and a horse to do some light trail riding. He went there for a couple months. Did just fine on the trails and has not taken a lame step in quite a while. He was recently tested and is off the ThyroL and off the Lamina Saver - there appears to be some reversal in the rotation and he is a much happier horse. His original career was a Jumper - although those days are gone he still has a useful life doing the trails and we hope next year he will be going to a trail resort to enjoy carrots and treats from all the people that visit there.

I am not saying that the Lamina Saver would help in your situation but I do believe that is played a great part (besides the shoeing) in getting this horse back to a much more comfortable situation. Just another suggestion.

OH - he did not need the bute when put on the Lamina Saver. We do not like to keep any of our horses on bute for a long period of time.

Oh another product that we used for our Stallion who had a quarter crack and needed to promote growth was Biotin 22x sold by United Vet Equine. It worked great for him.

Good Luck
Dee
Member:
Deggert

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 18, 2004 - 12:30 pm:

Hi Dee
I remember your post when the Lamina Saver thread started about 2 months ago. Thank you for responding as any ideas are welcomed with this frustrating condition. I have never dealt with founder before and I hope it's the last. I did put her on Lamina Saver about 7 weeks ago (she's 10 weeks post now) We have still had her on 1 gram of bute but this weekend I may try to take her off since the foam pad seems to help her. She is on thyro L also, she tends to be an easy keeper and the vets put her on a very small amount when we were attempting to breed her 2 years ago. I did read that bute can suppress thyroid production so we have kept her on it now and increased it slightly. I feel the Lamina Saver is helping but it's my gut feeling and I don't know how she would have fared without it. I figure it is worth the cost and peace of mind if she is getting any benefit and from others experience with LS it appears to be beneficial. We had a small backslide when my farrier put the shoe on her. As I said we had to remove it and the vet was not happy with the placement or shoe type. I have recently added a hoof supplement with high biotin and methionine and zinc etc to help with hoof growth. We will shoe her again in the next few weeks under my vets supervision, probably a glue on to avoid nails for now. Thanks for the thoughts I really appreciate any experiences others have had.
Debbie
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 18, 2004 - 5:06 pm:

If you will list the ingredients, concentration, and dosage recommendations of the Laminae Saver I would be glad to opine on them.
DrO
Member:
Deggert

Posted on Friday, Oct 8, 2004 - 6:33 pm:

Dr O
I was searching for more info on abscess formation in foundered horses. Updating on this mare, she was going along fine, she started some hoof growth and she is 4 months post founder incident. I weaned her 2 weeks ago next to the colt so no stress. 7 days ago she seemed a little more sore on the foot, I gave her 1 gram of bute once a day for the next couple days. She has been off any pain meds for 4 weeks. On day 3 she looked good so no bute. Next morning she was 3 legged. Vet came out and thought it could be an abscess, didn't get aggressive at this point just soaked and put on bute. 4 days later he re-checked. After checking the foot again he found an area of pus when he applied the hoof testers.
He did not have a great prognosis because he feels it could be dying hoof lamina, it is in the area of the hoof that sustained the most damage, the medial quarter. What is the general idea on abscessing in these horses. He feels the location might be telling us this hoof cannot regenerate, the damage could be too great. Or, as he is hoping its a random abscess from stuff getting in to the white line area. She is not enormously better since we opened it up, but better. He feels if she if back to pre-abscess condition in the next week things might , if she continues to be lame, her foot may be to damaged and the prognosis is poor. She doesn't have horrible rotation, about 5-6 degrees, but what is your thought on abscess formation and what it means? she has not been ready for derotation or shoes yet, she stays in a padded turnout area.
Member:
Juliem

Posted on Friday, Oct 8, 2004 - 11:43 pm:

I think your vet is being overly pessimistic, but of course I can't see the radiographs. It's not uncommon for a horse that has suffered a bout of laminitis to have abcesses. Yes, it's probably the damaged or dead laminae that were deprived of blood and are now causing the abcess. That's like having a foriegn body where it doesn't belong. Treat the abcess agressively as per Dr. O's reccommendations. Pare it out, pack and bandage as he describes. My gelding foundered in the spring of 1998 and by August was experiencing abcesses that continued showing up until about January of the following year. Since then he has been sound, has even won an endurance short race and has packed me many mountain miles over all kinds of terrain. He's shod natural balance and in the winter he's barefoot. He has about the same degree of rotation as your mare. The difference is my vet and farrier didn't fool around with soaking. The longer the abcess goes unopened, the larger the pocket gets. They opened the pocket thoroughly, packed, bandaged and kept that up until new horn started to grow in the pared area--cornify. Then they forged a shoe that protected the pared area but still allowed me to clean it and pack it with iodine soaked cotton. The shoe kept the cotton in place when it's really packed in there--I used a pair of pliers that look like needle nose pliers that are bent into a sort of L shape. I'm not a vet, but all foundered horses have some damaged or dying laminae. That doesn't mean they can't recover with the right combination of vet, farrier and committed owner. Why does he feel she isn't ready for derotation yet? I'm for lighting a fire under your vet!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Oct 10, 2004 - 10:02 am:

Hello Debbie,
It is a common complication of founder and considering the information you provide I agree with Julie. The key here is to determine the cause of the abscess (there are several with founder) and correct it. We cover abscesses, why they occur, and ways to prevent it in the article on Overview of Founder, see the section on After the Pain Has Gone: Assessing the Damage, Rehabilitation, and Derotation.

For more on caring for abscesses see, Equine Diseases » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Hoof Abscesses, Bruises, and Gravels.
DrO
Member:
Bluesman

Posted on Monday, Oct 11, 2004 - 3:56 am:

Hi Debbie, its been a while since I have posted as my Mare is doing really well, but thought I would DrOp in. I am too worried that your vet is not positive enough in this situation. When my mare was stricken at the end of May, my vet said no half messure's "This is the full bib and braces approach". Talky has had abcess problems from July and still now we have a draining foot although not half as bad as it was. She is shod with half pads (behind the point of frog to support and stop further rotation) I can get to the area that is draining and now have been told to harden it with a pad of 10% Iodine and sugar solution. We have been doing this for the last week and the soft puss area is now hardening nicely. She is on no bute at all and hasnt been for two weeks and walks out sound, but that is only allowed for 10 minutes once a week. Remember my mare had 18% rotation in this foot...a great deal and some would say not corrective, but her hoof has grown well, she is due to be re shod next week along with further xrays to check out the bone condition. We are now 5 months down the line and things are looking great. I seriously think you should take a more positive approach, lots of hands on care and possibly asking your vet why he thinks her prospects are not good. As a pointer my mare has areas on her sole just in front of the point of frog that abcessed...due to the squashing of the hoof content by the pressure from the bone above. This is what died and caused the abcess and the bad area is now removing itself as Julie says...its like a foreign body. Please dont give up hope. My mares derotation started almost immediately after the acute phase was over. The worst I think is over now, that was the foot bathed in puss. Three times a day cleaned soaked and dressed for 4 months, now I have a bad back, but things look good.
Regards Jan
Member:
Deggert

Posted on Monday, Oct 11, 2004 - 4:17 pm:

Hi all
Well, the postive support is awesome and before I read all your posts I had started thinking in the same lines as all of you- that this abscess is not draining properly and I can't possibly make a decision about this till it is drained. This mare is very special and if she can just get to pasture sound I would be happy. She is that special horse we all have had. She is still hobbling around on this abscess because the pus cannot get out the small hole in front of the apex of the frog, there is a definite black line from the hole to the toe. My farrier and I spoke a few minutes ago and she will come tomorrow, I have a call in to the vet now for an update. I believe my vet's reasoning for not getting overly aggressive on her sole is that p3 is right there and she has thin soles anyway. I have wrapped and tried to express the area some to encourage draining and I was still getting small bits of pus. Her leg swells and unswells with the backup of pressure. In regard to derotation, I have read Dr O's info many times and the first item is that the horse is sound and pain free. Previous to this abscess she was off bute for 4 weeks. she was comfortably sound at the walk on shavings or deep dirt. On hard ground with no pad she’s grade 5 lame. So I don’t get repetitive most all the info on her is in previous posts. The dilemma seems that if her hoof wall is still unstable and we have sole abscesses and she does not like frog pressure, where can we put a shoe? I am encouraged by all your comments, this weekend I even made Jan’s rubber shoe, but she wouldn’t walk at all in it. She eats like a pig, (still keeping her weight down though) drinks and takes care of herself. As soon as I hear from the vet I will update you all. Again, the good feedback is very encouraging Thanks again
Member:
Deggert

Posted on Monday, Oct 11, 2004 - 7:55 pm:

Dr O, Julie, Jan
Well, I just talked to the vet, he wants to look at her Wednesday. I told him of our thoughts without (I hope) stepping on his toes, but he is a very nice guy, I do believe in his heart he thinks she will not get through this. I will sum up if I can. the pus coming out is not of the nature he usually sees with post laminitic non- life threatening abscesses. It is more serum looking and white, that he associates with dying lamina. If I can push on the sole and easily get some pus, then it has an exit area. Her pain not subsiding very much is problematic to him. He said certainly that the type of abscess that forms even on foundered horses if it pops and relieves the horse it is a good sign. In her case it did not relieve her pain. He has seen many many horses suffer with abscesses for months, to ultimately be put down, and suffered pain the whole time.
He is not saying 100 percent it is over, I know it is his gut feeling though. HMMMM. Well, now I have the farrier tomorrow, The vet said he did not feel it was in the mare's best interest to open up her sole more as the abscess is at the tip of P3.
I will just see what the farrier thinks tomorrow, and the vet is coming on Wednesday. He said he is leaving town for a week and wants to see her before. I am still going forward, we will see what happens this week.
Jan, Julie Dr O When the abscesses were found and an exit area made, were the horses immediately relieved? We opened the small hole last Wednesday, this is 5 days since. Would you have the farrier look and try to open it more? I know these are tough questions with out seeing her, Thanks again. If she wasn't having so much discomfort it wouldn't be so difficult, and she was doing so well just before this. slow progress but progress.
Member:
Bluesman

Posted on Monday, Oct 11, 2004 - 8:14 pm:

Debbie,
My mare took at least 8 days tos how releif after the abscess started to drain realy well and this was only because the vet gave it a path to drain through. Indeed her foot was bathed in puss of the yellow serum kind, not the rotten black smelly stuff. After the drainage point was made (through the toe of the hoof at the front, as well as a small drainage hole on the sole) I poulticed the foot with dry animalintex, can you get this product in america?? Its a dry gauze type dressing with a plastic backing. I just initially taped it to the mares foot (sole only) with vet wrap (self adhesive crepe bandage). Changed it every 12 hours. That drew out a great deal of the puss and I also tubbed her foot, remember Dr O put me on to your product Betadine. Its brilliant with sugar and realy draws out the puss. I soaked her foot once a day. Then repoulticed. The puss in my mares foot was visible in her xrays, have you had the mare xrayed recently?? also debbie why cant you try and get the vet and farier to visit at the same time...2 heads are better then one. My vet and farrier form part of a team with me and my daughter and we all work to the same cause. Getting the mare back on track. Good luck with the abscess, but I really think like Dr O says until the pressure is relieved by removing the puss the mare will continue to be on three legs.
regards Jan
Member:
Juliem

Posted on Monday, Oct 11, 2004 - 9:20 pm:

Debbie, I'm sorry you're having to go through this. Each time I've had experience with an abcess my vet opened the pocket so thoroughly there was no more pus. His thinking is that leaving it partially unopened allowed more damage to occur. My horses have shown pretty dramatic relief, but not total, almost from the time the nerve blocks wore off.Before the bandaging perior is over and the shoe applied, they have become sound to my eye. Local anesthesia in the form of nerve blocks enabled him to get all the dead tissue removed. I know when I see the crater he leaves I think he might be overly agressive, but each time they have improved to 100%--both the foundered and the healthy horse's feet and the crater fills in amazingly fast. I follow his instructions for after care to the letter and they are the same as Dr. O's. I know you are doing everything you can. I was fortunate to be able to haul my horse to the clinic and the farrier met with me and the vet each time.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 12, 2004 - 9:07 am:

Debbie, check out the article on Abscesses again, I have greatly expanded the treatment and prognosis sections to better answer these questions.
DrO
Member:
Deggert

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 12, 2004 - 3:50 pm:

Dr O, Jan and Julie,
I checked the updated abscess section and printed, thank you. I was going to see if the farrier could come tomorrow when the vet is there but she is in another part of the county then. So, she is coming today, mainly because I hate to hold off another day as the mare even on 2 grams of bute is not putting much weight on it, I am fearful the other foot is going to be in jeopardy of supporting leg founder if I don't get some even weight bearing very soon. I don't think we will do any radical hoof cutting but I want her to look and maybe help open it up a bit as there is a black track from the hole to toe now. It may be nothing
I found some Animalintex at Stateline tack here in the Petsmart store. I will get some today if I can. I printed all your soaking and poultice experiences. I have been soaking with Betadine and alternate Epsom, but Dr o's post on one of jan's questions said the betadine is better for this. My vet did nerve block her on last Wednesday to help with working on the foot and to try and isolate the pain. I think he plans to x-ray tomorrow, (maybe more for me than her)
thanks for the support, I will update tomorrow after the farrier and the vet. thaks again for the support
Member:
Deggert

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 12, 2004 - 3:58 pm:

Dr O, Jan and Julie,
I checked the updated abscess section and printed, thank you. I was going to see if the farrier could come tomorrow when the vet is there but she is in another part of the county then. So, she is coming today, mainly because I hate to hold off another day as the mare even on 2 grams of bute is not putting much weight on it, I am fearful the other foot is going to be in jeopardy of supporting leg founder if I don't get some even weight bearing very soon. I don't think we will do any radical hoof cutting but I want her to look and maybe help open it up a bit as there is a black track from the hole to toe now. It may be nothing
I found some Animalintex at Stateline tack here in the Petsmart store. I will get some today if I can. I printed all your soaking and poultice experiences. I have been soaking with Betadine and alternate Epsom, but Dr o's post on one of jan's questions said the betadine is better for this. My vet did nerve block her on last Wednesday to help with working on the foot and to try and isolate the pain. I think he plans to x-ray tomorrow, (maybe more for me than her)
thanks for the support, I will update tomorrow after the farrier and the vet. thaks again for the support
Member:
Deggert

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 13, 2004 - 6:33 pm:

Hello
Well my farrier came out yesterday. we barely open up the hole a little and got soooo much pus.
over a tablespoon. She cleaned up the area, debriding the sole that is dead, she shaped up the foot a little. We made her a rubber pad that does not cover the abscess elevated her heel some and made a frog support with wool felt shaped in a triangle. We left this back a bit from the apex of the frog since this area is involved in the abscess. The pus was also to the medial side of the frog, if you drew a cross on her foot, it is the quarter closest to the toe on the inside. In otherwords, it was fairly involved. My farrier was much more positive that this should be treatable, although the abcesses are certainly frustrating, but she felt we should not even be thinking end of the road. She has treated many foundered horses in 20 years of shoeing and worked with some great farriers on them. She did have concern that the DDFT pull is causing the pain because the abscess is from P3 putting pressure causing the abscess. She feels if we get this abscess cleaned up and continue support for her foot, that the extreme discomfort should subside. If in 2 weeks she is still as painful, we should take a hard look at the tendon. We hope to not go there and she is hoping we can not only get through the abscesses but return her to mild riding if luck is with us.
I am to soak every other day, so as not to over soften the foot but change the pad daily, she likes the sugardine. I am going to get the Animalintex today too so I have options. She suggested rotating the sugardine with dry poultice. The mare is putting more weight on the foot, seems to be testing the support to see if she likes it them puts full weight on it. She acutally did walk using both front legs, small steps but weighting the bad one. Leaving her on bute for now. Spoke to my vet today and he was encouraged that we got more pus and the mare is more comfortable. I don't expect overnight soundness, as you all said it could take a week for her to really show some healing. My farrier is coming again on Monday and the vet in the next week or so. I hope all goes well and thanks again for the encouragement. Any more suggestions welcomed and I will keep you posted.

Dr O
I only found a little blurb about the DDFT tenotomy. Any experience with this?
Member:
Bluesman

Posted on Thursday, Oct 14, 2004 - 3:06 am:

Good Morning Debbie, Its great news that the farrier has found puss and its starting to drain. This is exactly how it was with my mare. I was advised to keep the dry poultice on all the time. Changing it every 12 hours as its dry it wont soften the sole. Tubbing as required. You will be amazed how much puss will be drawn from the drainage point with the animalintex. Just cut a piece large enough to cover the toe area of the sole. It comes with the poly backing, stick it on her hoof with gaffa tape or duck tape if you have no vet wrap.(I used 4 packs of the stuff in total). It will take time, my mare was not sound for 3 weeks, but we got there in the end. I had read in a book about tendon problems associated with this condition. When I approached this subject with my vet he told me we realy dont want to go down that path, it has problems in itself and is a salvage measure. I think you will find once this abscess is cleared up things will be looking so much better.Good luck.
Regards Jan.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Oct 14, 2004 - 11:55 am:

It is not that the tendon has a problem, it is that the normal function of the tendon pulls on the coffin bone and is one of the reasons rotation occurs. Jan is right it is a salvage procedure resulting in a horse that is only pasture sound. I believe that if you have the foot draining properly things are going to get better.
DrO
Member:
Deggert

Posted on Thursday, Oct 14, 2004 - 1:13 pm:

Thanks Dr O, Jan and all, Well, the farrier is just saying if we can't get her comfortable we need to look at it and she agrees it is a salvage issue. The amount of soreness that has persisted through this 4 months is part of it. The vet does not seem concerned that this is the issue but we'll see when he looks at her again in the next couple weeks, but I guess it does "take a village" (haha- that's a U.S. thing) or at least a small group to see all the sides.
I did pick up the Animalintex last night. Her boot came off last night when she got up from a nap, so I reapplied and just changed the betadine cotton on the abscess. When she gets up she puts the most strain on the Rubber pad we made her. I used the duct tape as usual but this time wrapped Vetwrap on the outside and up the pastern to help hold in place, worked good. I am going to soak her when I get home from work, then off to school. I have a hectic schedule as most do. She is still on a total of 3 grams of bute a day. I will try to back off a little on that as she looks more comfortable. She is back on ranitidine to prevent ulcers. She is weighting the foot better than before, still slow though. As you all said it may take a week for her to show real obvious improvement, there was alot of damage, abscess and "trimming" done.
Dr. O, I caught your question a few posts ago about whatis in the Laminasaver. My mare is still on it. I am afraid it is one of those leaps of faith that I am using. "restorex" is a proprietary formula. I did call Figuerola labs a couple weeks ago to ask questions about nutriceuticals I am feeding and possibly doubling up as I don't know what is in the LS. They put Dr. Figuerola on the phone. She was very nice, I spurted out a few things that have been mentioned to me to try (I haven't) like, coenzymeQ10 and Blue Green Algae. Mostly I wanted to get her opinion or a reaction or see if I could get any info on the contents of Lamina Saver. Bottom line, she said if I feel the need to give other items, don't give them within 45 minutes as the uptake of the LS is in that time frame. She did say she is not a fan of yucca. We chatted about my mare's progress at that time. She did ask me if she had improved on the LS, I told her I have no idea since she has been on it since 2 weeks post incident, so I have no reference point. Just an fyi
Thanks everybody ;>
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Oct 15, 2004 - 1:00 pm:

Blue green algae is toxic and I would not recommend you use it. Yes I agree, Figuerola labs is very long on advertising and very short on science.
DrO
Member:
Deggert

Posted on Friday, Oct 15, 2004 - 2:13 pm:

Hi Dr O
I do not take this algae but know those who do. I have heard that you have to be careful of the sources.
Well, I soaked the mare's foot last night and applied the Animallintex for the first time. thanks Jan for tip. As I was drying her foot I could see some pus under the sole on the medial side but all in all it looked very good. The site where the worst part of the abscess is and the sole was debrided is quite sore and it looks like sensitive tissue there. She looks a little better today though, she let me clean her good foot and stood on the bad one.
Now if I could just blind fold her so the baby can go out for a walk we would all be happy. she stared to fly around the other day when we took him for a short walk by her stall and he was out of site for 2 seconds Thanks all
Member:
Deggert

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 19, 2004 - 5:58 pm:

Hello
I have been changing wrap once a day and soaking as needed. If I don’t see areas that I can push on and get pus I just clean and apply new Animalintex and sugardine. The sugardine is amazing and these 2 products seem to work well together. It really seems to draw well, I apply sugardine as a thick paste sparingly. Everyday when I take her bandage off there is so much goopy pus on the inside of the Duct tape. I noticed it is coming out of the toe where the vet had originally
Notched the toe, hoping to provide a draining tract. It is hard to believe there is so much
Drainage. The original areas are fairly dry now and she has some discharge
Towards the heel now. The groove of the frog on that side of the foot is draining some blood tinged pus. She looks so much more comfortable, not pre abscess normal yet but very good. She is crabby and demands food, that’s my girl. The rubber pad is holding up well and the vetwrap outside the duct tape is the key to keeping everything in place, even with her getting up and down. The only real sore place is the original focal point of the abscess just medial to the apex of the frog. This is sensitive tissue. The farrier is supposed to get back out today but we are having quite a rain storm.
Thanks for listening, and any more advice is welcome. Debbie
Member:
Bluesman

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 19, 2004 - 10:31 pm:

hi Debbie its great that you are getting the puss out, It will find the weak places to drain. My mare had it initially break out in the bulb of her heel. The area that we have a soft and tenderness in is the point in front of the frog, is this what you are calling the apex?? This is where the most pressure is from the rotation of the bone in previous months, and the soft tissue of the hoof underneath this pressure dies and forms debris which in turn forms the abscess. I have been encouraged by my vet saying that this will harden and start holding her weight. So I feel you are now going through the same senario that I have been through. Its a long hard slog of back breaking cleansing and dressing twice a day. Plus soft beds and low calorie food. This time 2 months ago this is where I was at. Today I have a mare still supported on the frog by the equithain pads under her shoes, but now only having sugardine painted on her feet twice a day. On the 29th of this month she is having further xrays and then a good foot trim and re shoe. My vet is pleased with her progress (I just wish I could let her out for a while). As the puss goes so does the pain and you should find your mare will get sounder as the weeks progress. I am going to ask my vet if he can email me the xrays of my mare He has them on his lap top. I will then hopefully upload some of them onto this discussion. I would appreciate Dr O's examination of these xrays and comments on the improvement or deterioration of the pedal bone angle. This however wont be until the end of the month.
Take care
Jan
Member:
Bluesman

Posted on Saturday, Oct 23, 2004 - 9:20 am:

How is she doing Debbie, I constantly think of your mare when tending to mine.
Regards Jan
Member:
Deggert

Posted on Monday, Oct 25, 2004 - 3:05 pm:

Hi Jan
she is doing pretty good, the farrier is coming today, a week late because of the rain. the pus at the heel is less now and we have more again at the original site where the bone is close to the sole. It may be all related and be one big sub solar area of abscess. I have reduced her bute to 1 a day without much backsliding. I will know more after the farrier comes, then I need to schedule the vet to x-ray her. I hope the bone is not compromised at this point, and I think the vet visit will be for the purpose of an xray only as the farrier is more involved right now. She walks pretty good with the rubber pad I make her, the bute helps with the fact that the sensitive tissue is somewhat exposed in the area just inside of the apex of the frog, its about an inch in diameter, (2.5 cm) give or take.
thanks for thinking of us, and how is your mare?
Member:
Bluesman

Posted on Monday, Oct 25, 2004 - 4:11 pm:

Great to hear that the pain is going and she is walking better. As Dr O says get rid of the pressure of the puss and things will progress well.
My mare is doing good also, She is now just having her soles painted with a sugardine solution twice daily to harden of the soft areas. The puss has stopped. She is sound and has now had no bute in her system for 4 weeks. We are all happy with her progress. The vet and farrier are due Friday morning for xrays and shoes. Fingers Crossed. I have a vey stroppy mare at present who is looking at the world in a different light, wishing to get out and about, but alas, not yet. Yep we think we might just be getting there. Good luck with yours. Shame we live so many thousand of miles apart, I would love to be able to compare notes.
Regards Jan
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