|
|
Discussion on Allergic reaction?
|
| Author |
Message |
Member:
Sparky
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jul 7, 2004 - 11:46 pm:
our 4H leaders 15 month cold got into something and his nose swole up 3 times its size. The vet treated him for an allergic reaction. His nose is now peeling off! and his three white legs are breaking out. The 3 white legs swole up but the brown one did not. They are now oozzing and crusty. Is there any truth to the weak white hoof theory?
thanks
Janet \
|
Member:
Sparky
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jul 7, 2004 - 11:48 pm:
more pictures
|
Member:
Sparky
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jul 7, 2004 - 11:49 pm:
|
Member:
Jerre
|
Posted on Thursday, Jul 8, 2004 - 12:02 am:
Oh! the poor baby!!! Please keep us updated.
DrO, can a horse recover from this kind of tissue loss?
What could cause this kind of reaction?!?!
|
Member:
Mrose
|
Posted on Thursday, Jul 8, 2004 - 1:03 am:
Oh, the poor guy!! I hope he recovers o.k.
Do you know what he "got into?" Was he eating clover by any chance? There are some plants, esp. some clovers that can cause a severe photosensitivity, but I don't know if it can get this bad. There is a site here under Poisonous/Toxic plants that might be a starting point. How long before his owner noticed his problem? btw-this has nothing to do with "weak white hooves." Oh..he makes me hurt just to look at him. How is he being treated now? What meds, etc.? Do keep us posted.
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Thursday, Jul 8, 2004 - 6:29 am:
Janet, I do think white areas are more sensitive to some things and particularly prone to sun damage. Do they know what caused this?
Yes, if the cause of the problem is removed or treatable he could recover. The nature of the recovery depends on which skin layers are left behind: the deeper the damage the more the scarring. From these photos I cannot determine which layers we are seeing exactly but it looks pretty deep.
DrO
|
Member:
Sunny66
|
Posted on Thursday, Jul 8, 2004 - 11:12 am:
Poor thing! Yes please do keep us posted.
|
Member:
Jillmike
|
Posted on Sunday, Jul 11, 2004 - 1:28 am:
I dealt with something similar in South Central Texas about 8 years ago. We went out to feed one morning and our two horses with blazes looked like someone had painted a red stripe down their faces. Any areas with white were swelled up and oozy. The vet came out and said it was a weed common to that area that caused extreme photosensitivity. He reccommended we keep them in during the day and pasture at night. Their symptoms eased and they went completely away by the end of summer.
|
Member:
Sparky
|
Posted on Monday, Jul 12, 2004 - 12:49 am:
The best we can figure out is that he got into a hornet's nest. They must have gone for the white/light on his nose and his three white legs. The brown one has absolutely nothing! Here are a couple of pictures of the three white legs and the nose from today. He is finished his antibiotics and she is trying to put cream on his nose but he is not happy with any of the treatment except for the hose on mist that he sticks his nose into.
thanks
Janet\popjpeg{20144,}
|
Member:
Sparky
|
Posted on Monday, Jul 12, 2004 - 12:53 am:
|
Member:
Sparky
|
Posted on Monday, Jul 12, 2004 - 12:55 am:
|
Member:
Pbauer
|
Posted on Monday, Jul 12, 2004 - 2:00 am:
Janet,
Should this colt be in a hospital? The injuries look so severe...I'm worried about this little one!
I don't know if you've ever been stung by a hornet, I have, the pain is horrible. This baby had many, many bites...I cannot imagine the pain
this colt has been through, and is still going through...
Please let me know if I can help.
Keeping this baby in my prayers,
Tonya
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Monday, Jul 12, 2004 - 9:56 am:
I do not like the hornet theory and if only white skin areas are effected (I thought in the pictures above dark skin on the nose was effected) I would pay a lot of attention to the ideas of sunlight damage probaby secondary to a skin sensitizing agent. For a list see the article Equine Diseases » Skin Diseases » Overview of Hair Loss & Irritated Skin.
DrO
|
Member:
Sparky
|
Posted on Monday, Jul 12, 2004 - 12:10 pm:
Unfortunately this is not my colt he is only temporarily staying at my dad's farm. I have learned from other posts on this site when people try to help an owner that has their own agenda it does not always work. All we can do at this point is offer her a place to stay - my dad feels so sorry for the colt that he is putting up with a lot! My dad is 82 and does not need the stress and strain either so I am worried about both! Apparently the vet is coming out again today so I will update if I can find out anything. In one of the first pictures you can sort of see a dollar size spot on the center front of his nose. This was the first place to really change color and blister and then was a small crator and then if bubbled out from there.
thanks
Janet
|
Member:
Mrose
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 13, 2004 - 12:11 am:
Janet,are you saying that the nose was all white and then it blackened? I guess I missed that part. I know that some spider bites,like the black widow, brown recluse and hobo,will cause this type of reaction but he would have had to run into a whole lot of spiders to look like he does. Rattlesnake bites will do this,too. But again, if it were a snake there'd probably be just one bite. Poor little guy! He does look like his condition is improving, however. If you could get the colt's owner to ask why he thinks it was wasps as opposed to photosensitivity or something else it would be great; but I totally understand your relunctance. Too bad you can't be there when the vet comes, and just ask " out of curiosity" and for your own information.
Please continue to keep us posted. btw-are flies a problems for him? Seems like they would really be drawn to his injuries. I'm amazed at the healing that appears to be taking place, though.
|
Member:
Kathleen
|
Posted on Thursday, Jul 15, 2004 - 3:39 pm:
Hi, I was very concerned about this colt and showed this post to a herpetologist and the following is her opinion:
Kathleen
That poor little colt!
As for the hornets: they would go for dark spots, not light (same as their kin - bees and wasps)
As for spider bites: black widows carry a neurotoxic venom. While some localized tissue damage may occur, the widow's venom targets the nervous system, not the blood. Typical symptoms of a widow bite are tremors, abdominal cramping, tingling lips, etc. - and this is in an adult human. (Very few deaths have been caused by widow bites.) In horses, you would probably attribute the symptoms (if any in such a large creature)to colic. As for the recluse spider: they do have potent hemotoxic venom. The venom causes necrosis in tissue and breaks down the blood's ability to clot. (BTW, recluse bites are now easily treatable with nitroglycerin patches.) In rare cases, the recluse venom triggers a reaction in the victim that, as of yet, seems untreatable and is not fully understood. It causes even the slightest injury to ulcerate and take months, or even years, to heal. This reaction continues for years and can effect any part of the body. Since white legs seem to be more vulnerable to "scratches" and other problems, these would easily ulcerate in reaction. (The only thing that may rule out a recluse is that their "fangs" are so tiny that the spider has to literally be pushed into the skin - which is why people are usually bitten in bed or while dressing.) As to "hobo" spiders - there are only two spiders in the US that can cause damage to any human (much less a horse): the widow and the recluse. Also, allergic reactions to spider bites are much over-diagnosed. The proteins carried in their venom is much different from insects (such as wasps and bees) and very rarely trigger an allergic reaction. (This information comes from a renowned entomologist and arachnologist.)
As for snakebite: the powerful hemotoxins carried in viper venom could indeed cause the tissue damage shown and may eventually cause fluid to gather in lower extremities. Like the recluse, the hemotoxins in most vipers' venom impedes the bloods ability to clot, causes fluid to leak into the tissue, and causes necrosis - basically, the flesh is being "pre-digested". However, the necrosis and swelling would start out as localized and spread out from that region, not target random points on the body. The only viper in your region is the Northern Pacific rattler (Crotalus viridis oreganus), found in south-central BC. Coral snakes wouldn't be a viable suspect since they are only found in the southern US.
What concerns me the most (besides how painful and uncomfortable this must be for this poor colt), is that if hemotoxic venom was introduced into the system, and no steps were taken to halt its progress, that internal organs such as the kidneys and liver could be damaged - possibly severely. A vet would have to test for any damage.
I realize that this was quite wordy and long, but I hope it helps.
|
Member:
Canter
|
Posted on Friday, Jul 16, 2004 - 8:06 am:
Excellent info, Kathleen, and very interesting. Nice of you to look into this on behalf of this poor little colt.
I think we are all keeping our fingers crossed for him.
Fran
|
Member:
Sparky
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 20, 2004 - 3:32 pm:
Update - the vet has now said that it is a reaction to his injesting something that has made him sensitive to the sun - Just as you said in the beginning Dr. O - They have done a blood panel to check his liver and kidneys and the rest of the white areas on his body are slowly peeling off. The vet came out and they sedated him and cleaned up the legs really well. He still looks a mess and you can see where the skin is lifting right up to the color change in the hair. The colt has now been moved off our property so I will no longer be able to update with pictures but will try to get info from the owner if possible. Thanks for all the input.
Janet
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 20, 2004 - 5:39 pm:
Well Sara said it first, but it is a common problem in horses and at the top of the list, but not the only thing. There are some much rarer conditions that have a predilection for the white skin like some types of autoimmune skin diseases.
DrO
|
Member:
Kthorse
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 20, 2004 - 9:04 pm:
I had a pinto mare about 30 years ago who was white half of her body. She was a chubby pony mare. We put her to stud one year and they put her in a 20 acre knee high clover paddock. Every white inch of her body which was at least 1/2 blistered and all the hair and top layer of skin came off. She also foundered slightly. Her head was black so that wasnt affected. It did not look quiet as bad as these pictures but was very similar. She was kept out of the sun for a few months till new hair grew back. Lucky the stallion owner paid for her care because of their putting her in that situation. I will never forget it. My mare was totaly fine after treatment. I have no idea if this is similar or not. It just made me remember way back when.
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jul 21, 2004 - 10:11 am:
Hello Katrina,
Many people confuse alsike clover, which can result in photosensitivity, with the typical clovers found in pasture: white and red. It may have been with the forage was so high that the constant wetness caused a reaction on the white parts of the skin.
This entire episode outlines the importance of being able to identify the plants that grow commonly in your pasture and to know if they may be toxic.
DrO
|
Member:
Kthorse
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jul 21, 2004 - 11:04 am:
Hi Dr O,
This happenned in Australia. They do have different types of grasses, weeds etc. I was only a kid at the time and did not pay much attention to types of grass's. I left that up to my parents. It looked like the regular clover. If I remember correctly the vet said it was a reaction from the extreme rich forage( new spring pasture) and her over eating and the hot hot ausie sun. She also foundered slightly. Who knows . It was frightning as a kid watching my ponys hair and skin peal off in clumps so that half her body was pink skin.
I am only learning about all the toxic plants in this country. You would not believe how different the plant life is between the two countrys. There are so many more different plants here. I wonder if I will ever learn all the toxic ones there are so many.
Katrina
|
Member:
Lesali
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jul 21, 2004 - 8:06 pm:
Dear Janet,
Sorry to hear about your horse.Pictures look dreadful but there appears to fresh skin developing underneath along with fresh hairgrowth. This is by the way, very painful and irritating for your poor baby! How do I know? my horse Ali has the same problem in the summer months during bright sunshine, July-August in England(never in winter). I am convinced it is photosensitivity with your colt too,which can be caused by various factors, but the main task is to remove the irritant i.e. the sunlight! One of Ali,s hind pastern is mainly white, and there is a dividing line where the dark skin pigment fades and becomes pink. This is the area that becomes affected. Ali's leg last summer were so bad!I tried everything Janet, plus it got infected and had to have antibiotics. The onset is so quick and starts by oozing of plasma fluid causing yellow crusting. My vet diagnosed photosensitivity. It was the first year that I had owned Ali and there appeared to be no previuos scarring. Ali had another medical problem at the time...Jaundice from eating mouldy straw and this made it more pronounced. However, Ali is well now but is having sensitivity problems one year later (summer again).
I have to be careful to keep his leg area covered/ shaded with a sock with the toe cut out. Have tried walkers gaiters which are stiffer and allow air to circulate whist providing shade. Turnout socks are good but cause sweating in hot weather which agrevates the condition and delays healing. Not much helps in the way of creams really. Sudacreme (nappy creme) helps a little. Suncreams offer little protection. Best thing is remove irritant and in your case get your horse out of the sun and keep it there. (Turn out at night?) Bathing areas with saline (salted water) is best by far! Had Ali's leg in bucket of water for 30 mins per day, difficult but very soothing.Could use hose pipe? Took 6-8 weeks to heal last year and left deep tissue scars with no hair growth on, so even more cautious this year! Lots of things can trigger photosensitivity but definately suspect liver function first...is your horse jaundiced (orangy gums and eyes). Can be caused by a breakdown of chlorophyll in grass and plants (phylloerythin).Can be congenital and you will have to deal with it as I do with Ali. I have been told that it may subside within 5 years or so. Only time will tell?
Hope this helps or reassures
PS GET HIM OUT OF THE SUN!!
Lesley Jayne
|
Member:
Sparky
|
Posted on Thursday, Jul 22, 2004 - 12:07 pm:
Lesley - the colt is not mine - he belongs to my daughters 4H leader who was moving and was stuck for a place to put her horses for a bit. He has now been moved from our farm so I don't have access to anymore pictures but will try and keep updates going.
thanks for all your input - I am passing all this information on to the owner.
Janet
|
Member:
frances
|
Posted on Sunday, Jul 22, 2007 - 7:41 am:
Hi Janet. I've just come across this old post, and wondered if you ever heard whether the colt recovered? The photos are truly horrifying.
|
|
|
