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  Discussion on Two new (reluctant) believers in Chiro
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Member:
Parfait

Posted on Saturday, Jul 17, 2004 - 12:29 am:

Dr O.

I'm the last one to jump on the band wagon but I had a horse that was profoundly back sore due to the podiatrist that I was so big on lately and I (in deperation) took her to a vet who is a "great Chiropractor" in WA.I need to make it clear that I have never ever been to a chiro because I don't think they can get results but my horse was sore and she is silicone sensitive so accupuncture was out of the question.

My local vet, who poo poos chiro as well, checked my mare the week prior and we discussed alternatives such as cortisone injections etc. He also checked her just today. I didn't tell him What I had done and He guessed accupuncture. He said she was a little tender, not sore, probably 70% improved and when I told him that she had chiro he LOL. I have to say, I had him check her because I had felt the improvement under saddle and I wanted confirmation. The vet /chiro did such hocus pocus you wouldn't believe it. But, My horse was better. Not 100% but she was able to lift her shoulders and round up and make little circles and bend to the left...The chrio said get 60-70% now and another 20% in 2 weeks. I might just be a new believer.Just FWIW.

Kerry
Member:
Sully

Posted on Saturday, Jul 17, 2004 - 6:27 pm:

I think it is like most things, if you get a good chriopractor, they can do wonders(for people also). If you get one not so good, they can make things worse. In the cutting horse world, there are two that travel together and are considered the best. I would never have believed you could put a horse into some of the positions these two men do and the horse not act up a bit. I have tried chriopractors in my area, but not found them to be anything like these guys. And some of the things they do, take both of them to manipulate the horse.I know they are used by many of the top cutting horse trainers and live outside of Weatherford TX. They travel to all the major cutting horse shows and also to different parts of the country a couple times a year. I am just hoping they get up my way some time!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Jul 18, 2004 - 10:25 am:

Hello Kerry,
70% improved may be a little less than what you might expect with time alone on a injury but that depends on the nature of the injury. The problem is that we don't know what would have happened with no treatment or something more traditional.

It is not that we simply poo-poo equine chiropratic Kerry, it is that it is not based on any, how do I say this kindly, scientific foundation. I have seen what I would call "magical" and improbable diagnostic statements being made followed by equally unlikely treatments.

That said you are not the first to find benefit from chiropractic. What we do not know is what is the nature of the benefit:
1) Are the results better (or worse) than no (or traditional) treatment.
2) If there is an improved response with chiropractic, what is the cause of this response.

Nancy you should note that, other than terminology, there are no similarities between human and equine chiropractic. Human chiropractic is based on humans reporting their own symptoms and radiography, neither of which is done in equine chiropractic.
DrO
Member:
Deggert

Posted on Monday, Jul 19, 2004 - 12:17 pm:

Dr O, Nancy and Kerry
don't you think horses "report" their own improvement or lack of? It would seem more genuine in horses if they immediately feel better as they are not telling themselves, "wow, I just had the chiropractor (for $100) and do I feel good!"
Like us humans might do. And maybe time will heal most problems but in the case of horses or their owners who cannot afford 6 months off and the re-conditioning time may choose to speed up the process, just a few thoughts. Thanks
Member:
Parfait

Posted on Monday, Jul 19, 2004 - 2:17 pm:

Debbie,

I had been messing around with her back problem for a few months and it was really surprising to get results so fast. When my vet checked her it was only 2 days after the chiro work and she has steadily improved since then. I believe that it got her out of the pain cycle enough to start proper carriage in her work. The stiffness to the left is now gone and that took a few days.

I won't use it on every horse but next time I come upon some persistent stiffness that doesn't make sense for the level of training, I will try it--I wish that I had tried it sooner as it would have saved me some aggravation. I *did* check her for primary physical problems and I used a DVM chiro who was very gentle--used just his finger tips on her back but bent her neck around--not like the ones Nancy mentioned. I'm sure they all have different techniques. I have heard to be careful in selection of practitioners!

Kerry

Member:
Deggert

Posted on Monday, Jul 19, 2004 - 3:38 pm:

Kerry
I have had good luck in the past with chiropractic. Don't have anyone (horse) working that hard now. We have a couple good DVM chiropractors here in town although before we had to use human Chiropractors that specialized in horses because that is all that was available. Chiropractic is very popular at the big shows, horses can't take drugs and still show so you see alot of alternative at big events. Good luck with your mare. Debbie
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Jul 19, 2004 - 3:51 pm:

Because all causal relationships are also temporal, we tend to think temporal relationships are strongly suggestive of a causal relationship. But we can so easily be fooled when we believe this. Let me tell you a story that happened just 2 weeks ago. I was scheduled to go out and vaccinate a horse late one afternoon when an emergency occurred that caused us to have to reschedule for another day. The owner checking the horse before going to bed that night found the horse broken out badly in hives and very agitated.

Now stop and think for a moment: the horse had never, in years, had a case of hives before and there was no apparent cause for the hives. What if I had vaccinated that horse just hours before the hives? How many of you would have believed it was the injections that caused the reactions? I know I would have, not only would it have been very closely related in time but logical as this is the type reaction you might expect from vaccines. Temporal and logical yet the conclusion would be completely wrong.

Concerning the idea that horses are like humans when they report their injuries. Horses do not report that they feel pain, where the pain is located, and how it happened. We can only go by our interpretations of the clinical signs displayed by the horse. The range of normal say to something as simple as pressure down the dorsal midline of the horse is so great that any reaction requires careful investigation before significance can be assigned and even then must be carefully reinterpreted as time goes by. For instance repeated pressure and manipulation extinguishes the normal reactions.
DrO
Member:
Parfait

Posted on Monday, Jul 19, 2004 - 4:05 pm:

Gotcha, Thanks Dr. O.

Kmb
Member:
Deggert

Posted on Monday, Jul 19, 2004 - 4:27 pm:

Hi Dr O
you are right and I think that is why we need more than one incident to start to think there is a relationship. It's funny you mention vaccine reactions but the one mare I have reacts, it was about the third time she had various eposodes of hives or swelling that we knew. Same with Larry's Natural fly repellent. Every time I came home and my farrier had shod my mare she had hives. Then I noticed the spray pattern, after a few episodes I asked him what he used and he told me Larrys Natural,, Please, just use insecticides on her she does better. Cheers
Member:
Cowgrl

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 20, 2004 - 10:02 am:

Kerry, Hi. Would that be Dr. Mike Salewski you took your horse to?
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