| HorseAdvice.com » Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Overview of Diagnosis and Diseases of the Foot » |
| Discussion on Still a mystery... part 4 ... | |
| Author | Message |
| Member: sunny66 |
Posted on Saturday, Sep 22, 2007 - 6:44 pm: For those of you reading this thread that haven't read it before, there are Parts 1 through 3 under Overview of Diagnosis and Diseases of the Foot... this has been a very long journey and I hope to stop taking up Dr. O's bandwith soon!Ok, here's the saddle:  Diane, I tried to put the saddle back farther but he's still to fat and the girth just went to the sweet spot! Then one of my boarders came by so I saddled him again real quick, should have kept the fleece pad back farther:  Feet: Right front    Left front    Front feet  Feet are due to be trimmed this Wednesday. Vet has approved barefoot until spring when xrays will be taken and most likely shoes will be put back on if he goes back to real work. Any input is greatly appreciated! |
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Saturday, Sep 22, 2007 - 7:29 pm: WELL here's my opinion and you can take it for what it's worth. I'm with Ann on this one, if Brave has thin soles why put him thru the sore feet thing just for the sake of barefoot. Why not make him comfortable while rehabbing his hoof? Shoes really aren't a bad thing From my experience with Hank anyway, his whole body was "breaking down" from the sore fronts. I didn't know what hurt anymore if you recall, you helped me thru that! I have 2 barefoot horses, but I just don't think it is for every horse. I have removed every supplement...except his hoof one since the shoes, and weight reduction. I had him on joint supps., mag/chromium, and was considering legend! I too thought his joints were falling apart, or he was neurological (shoeing bruised feet 4}...he was so bad behind. Since the routed out wide web shoes and equi-pak (just 2 shoeings) The horse is now awesome and his wall and sole look better than they ever did barefoot...I know hard to believe. I am not a shoe and pad advocate, but as my farrier said we can take them back off if they don't help I am not trying to sway you either way...but maybe Brave just isn't ready for barefoot yet. I will try it again with Hank but when he is ready. |
| Member: sunny66 |
|
| Member: dres |
Posted on Saturday, Sep 22, 2007 - 7:44 pm: I could not tell you if a western saddle fit or not.. but you sure have it padded up.. I would think if you are only walking, and not asking for him to do anything but walk around your arena, that, that saddle should not be a problem..If you were doing a lot of seated trot work and hitting him hard on the back, then i would persue the saddle fit.. But by that photo ALONE looks fine.. its well off his shoulder and i don't see any push on his loin.. BTW.. your leg looks like a dressage rider not a western saddle rider.  I only say what i say on part 3, becus you want to ride so much and frankly I want you to too..And now the summer is ending and the shorter days are upon us.. On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painte them with spots.. |
| Member: kthorse |
|
| Member: sunny66 |
Posted on Saturday, Sep 22, 2007 - 8:02 pm: Thank you Ann, yes, padded to the hilt! Only walking, but usually once he warms up he likes to trot a bit so I will be sitting still in the saddle to bring him back to walk...right? I know and I thank you for everything... but you know that I hope!
|
| Member: sunny66 |
|
| Member: juliem |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Saturday, Sep 22, 2007 - 8:53 pm: I agree just because it helped Hank doesn't mean it would help Brave...however they do have quite a few of the same symptoms. To me the fact that he is better on soft ground indicates his feet are sore...no matter the pathology. I think Dr.O. commented in one of my posts about frog support.I don't think shoes eliminate any support and actually with a pour in pad helps support it. If you look at Hanks frog in his last shoeing they are big and plump. I think there is a pic of them in the derotation post. Only you and your vet can decide what is best for Brave. Good LOOKING hooves don't necsasarily mean they are sound. I've seen horses with some pretty ugly hooves that were sound, and some very "pretty" hoooves that were lame...the inside counts too. Aileen it is up to you what you do to Brave I am just bringing up the shoes and pour in pads as an option. It just seems anymore that people think shoes are bad....they are not! They are a needed tool in helping some horses. I am not trying to start a barefoot vs. shoeing argument if a horse can go barefoot they SHOULD, but not all can all the time for varying reasons. I remember some said Hank would be no better with shoes and BOY they were WRONG . You just never know until you try. He has been barefoot for quite awhile now....and seems to have more bad than good days.MY thinking with Hank was IF shoes would help him why let him have sore days when it is avoidable.
|
| Member: sunny66 |
Posted on Saturday, Sep 22, 2007 - 11:28 pm: Thank you Julie, I really did try to get the saddle farther back, it just kept sliding up. I went to ride another horse today and used the fleece on him and he just didn’t like that at all. (didn’t end up getting on him because he was BUCKING with his owner on him) I’ll try a different setup.From what you can you tell from the pictures, does it look like his underrun heel is getting better? Considering it’s been almost 5 weeks from the last trim? I know the heels need to come back, but I was wondering if any of you think four weeks would be ok for him now. I have a feeling she’ll just balance and bring the heel back. I like him having a bigger foot to give some space between the coffin bone and the ground. Thank you Diane The vet is willing to try things that I ask him to, but I think he thinks Brave shouldn’t be ridden and just be retired; however, after seeing the improvement barefoot has made in his hoof form I know he was surprised. Brave would have never changed his hoof form that quickly if he was shod. This I do know. My vet agreed with me that if we can just make it to the rainy season he should be fine barefoot I just need to watch Brave and make sure he’s ok with it (which is hard to do when he’s not giving me any straightforward lameness. For instance, my chiro vet saw left hind on the 13th…) What I’ll do is ask the farrier to hoof test him everywhere, but particularly the coffin bone area. If he has a reaction, I’ll ask her advice then call the vet and discuss it. One thing I noticed lately just in pasture and at rest, as well as from the pictures is his stance is better, his front legs are straight down, not under his belly, so I think that’s a good, positive change... right? But the picture of me on his back, his legs do not appear to be straight down, but underneath. So what I’m getting at is that you could definitely have a point and I’ll pursue it
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Sunday, Sep 23, 2007 - 7:28 am: Good Luck with Braves hooves Aileen...just follow your head and heart you know what is best for him.His saddle does look a little forward. When I saddled Hank to get the saddle back a little further, I would set the saddle where I wanted it and maybe even a little further back, then cinch him. The saddle seemed to stay back where it should be, and he was much more comfortable. "chunky" horses are a challenge to saddle.
|
| Member: lilo |
|
| Member: hwood |
|
| Member: ekaufman |
|
| Member: frances |
|
| Member: scooter |
|
| Member: sunny66 |
Posted on Saturday, Sep 29, 2007 - 2:05 pm: Yes, she trimmed him pretty short. He didn't react to hooftesters, but he was on equioxx so she wouldn't have any trouble with his hind feet. She's coming by the next couple of days to hooftest him again and she'll be prepared to put glue on shoes on his front feet. I'm going to ask her if she has to trim him that short to balance him (which he is, he looks good, just short) if that's the case, the shoes are going on, then he'll go back bare when the ground softens up if he doesn't react to testers. Thanks for asking
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Saturday, Sep 29, 2007 - 3:37 pm: Yes I have made the mistake of Hank being on bute and no reaction to hoof tester. Once the bute wore off he reacted! Sounds like you have a good plan
|
| Member: sunny66 |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Saturday, Oct 20, 2007 - 11:50 pm: Aileen I am glad Brave is doing so well!!! You probably will have to "starve" him like I did Hank for the weight thing. These easy keepers are just too hard and of course the fat is hard on hooves and joints .
|
| Member: sunny66 |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Sunday, Oct 21, 2007 - 11:00 am: LOL Aileen the head shaking while hand walking brought back some unpleasant memories. Hank did the same thing when he finally started feeling better and wanted to GO. So Brave must be feeling pretty good about himself anyway.Good luck with the "starving" and stay tough. Hank is holding his own on about 6lbs. grass hay a day, a little grazing, and 3 alfalfa cubes AND getting ridden 3 times a week for an hour or 2. He finally don't think he is starved and his metabolism seems to be accepting it finally. The changes that have taken place are quite remarkable. I should update his diet thread. Keep up the good work!
|
| Member: sunny66 |
Posted on Saturday, Nov 10, 2007 - 6:31 pm: Brave is doing quite well, but I'm curious what you guys think about his feet. It looks like he's doing worse as far as his angles are concerned on the left front. He's now very sore for at least 7 days after a trim on both feet, so the last time she trimmed she was very conservative and he was not nearly as sore but still sore for 3-4 days.Sept. 07 Left front    Nov 07 - two weeks after trim Left front    Right front looks ok, I think...   I'm looking for opinions on whether you think he's still moving in the right direction. He's telling me one thing, but the pictures are telling me another. I need to educate my eye again. I am riding him twice a week at the walk in my arena and he's pretty happy about that, so far at least! Sorry to bother you guys again, thanks in advance. |
| Member: scooter |
|
| Member: kthorse |
|
| Member: sunny66 |
Posted on Saturday, Nov 10, 2007 - 8:17 pm: Thank you ladies!Diane, I hope we're right so I only have to worry about ONE foot now! He's turning tight correctly again, doesn't care about rocks (never has unless they were sporadic - but that was a concern because of his thinner soles), but even walking up or down hill... doesn't matter. Thank you Katrina, thank you and I hope you're doing ok. Yes, he's uneven and I'm 99% positive it's because I asked for a conservative trim. I did ask if she went conservative if she'd be able to balance him, I guess I have my answer... he started chipping his feet last week. He did have a couple of rodeos, so that could be why but I doubt it. I think it's because he's unbalanced as you stated. I really want him to have a bigger foot and it's just not working out. He's being trimmed every 3 weeks now so she can keep his heel back...at least that's working for the right foot, but not the left. It's supposed to be wet this winter here, so I guess I'll just keep on trying different things -- longer trim period -- shorter trim period... Oh and she did hoof test him all over with just a slight response on the left front in front of his frog, so she did it again but got no response the second time. |
| Member: juliem |
|
| Member: sunny66 |
|
| Member: sunny66 |
Posted on Saturday, Nov 24, 2007 - 1:01 pm: Hi all, I hope each and everyone of you had a fabulous Thanksgiving!Brave was trimmed on the 21st, but just for fun, I wanted to put some pictures in from Sept of 06 for comparison. I feel better after talking with my farrier that he can indeed wait until at least Spring for shoes. He's doing well, I've been on vacation the last couple of weeks and riding him every day at the walk in my arena for 20 minutes. Right Front Sept 06  Right Front Nov 07   Left front sept 06  Left front Nov 07   Thanks again to all of you
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Saturday, Nov 24, 2007 - 6:11 pm: Hi Aileen, Can't comment on the feet...it's all to confusing to me. Looks like they have widened up. How's he doing as far as soundness?
|
| Member: sunny66 |
Posted on Saturday, Nov 24, 2007 - 8:00 pm: He's doing ok, if anyone else saw him that didn't know him, they'd just say he was being a turd. lolBut I see his high headedness at the trot, so I can tell he's not 100%, but I couldn't pinpoint it for you. The reason I say this for sure is he had bute the other night for the trimmer and I put him on the lunge so she could watch him move and he was just beautiful - perfect even strides walk/trot/canter. Did the same thing yesterday and his high head was back at the trot and bucking like a fiend at the canter, granted this was one day after a conservative trim, I'll try him again next weekend. I'm 90% sure if he got the right shoes... the ones that have even more concussion than barefoot (need to find those shoes so I can order them) ... he'd be sound after a long warmup for his arthritis But since we're just walking until spring, there's no reason to hurry, he's perfectly sound at the walk over all terrain, long even strides. Vet's coming at the end of December so I'll get his concurrence then. Thanks Diane
|
| Member: juliem |
|
| Member: scooter |
|
| Moderator: DrO |
|
| Member: sunny66 |
Posted on Sunday, Nov 25, 2007 - 9:14 am: Thank you Julie! It's due to all of your help here. Same farrier but she told me I know a lot... lol... and she said that she waits for me to tell her what and when to trim... I told her I've gotten a LOT of input! The barefoot trimmer that has actually seen Brave helped her the most, but that was just once, you all have been the constant input. He's landing heel first unless he's being lazy in the arena, and he lands heel first in turnout 90% of the time; hence the fat frog . Diane, re: shoes, there are some shoes out there, have to find them, that state they hold more concussion than even a barefoot horse. When I find them I'll post. If he does get the shoes, he will for SURE be barefoot at least 3 months out of the year every year to let his feet breathe, no exceptions. This is one thing I didn't do before and should have. He needs more movement to help his arthritis, not less. While he does walk a lot, he needs to get his heart rate up and run and play which he does not do a lot of. I'm still battling his weight. We will be taking xrays before shoeing in the spring just to see. If he has more sole depth and can handle trotting under saddle barefoot and plays more in turnout, I will wait on the shoes
|
| Member: sunny66 |
|
| Member: cheryl |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Sunday, Nov 25, 2007 - 10:26 am: That's kind of what I thought when I looked at them...rock catchers. Good idea tho.Aileen if he is doing good barefoot why not just boot him for riding? I am too lazy to boot and Hank is also going to be shod in the summer when I ride, if he can be barefoot in the winter (6 mos.) I would be very happy. Do you not want to use steel or aluminum shoes? The equipak seemed to stimulate Hank's hooves and he improved in leaps and bounds with it. The farrier and vet were even impressed. The big caveat was you didn't have to pick their feet and when he came out of them his sole seemed much better.
|
| Member: sunny66 |
Posted on Sunday, Nov 25, 2007 - 10:32 am: Thank you Cheryl I'll keep looking, but they do look good! One of the testimonials mentioned the rocks being a small issue so I'll certainly keep it in mind. Here's another one: https://www.eponashoe.com/products/EponaShoe.html |
| Member: sunny66 |
|
| Member: dres |
|
| Member: cheryl |
|
| Member: dres |
Posted on Sunday, Nov 25, 2007 - 11:23 am: Cheryl K.. we use the normal 'dental' packing from the EDSS system too.. and I have found that the third week the packing seems to start to slip out, even with the holes drilled into the pads.. I was looking at the epona packing and wonder if it would hold better.. ? Have you used it? The shoe looks interesting too.. If you have used them how many resets did you get..???Good grief Aileen, see you got me looking at these 'plastic' shoes now.. Dr. O.. do you have any experiance with 'plastic shoes helping a tender footed horse? On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.. |
| Member: scooter |
|
| Member: sunny66 |
Posted on Sunday, Nov 25, 2007 - 11:53 am: LOL Ann My farrier uses plastic shoes on a couple of her endurance clients. She loves them! But if I can find something even better, that would be great. Ok, from my inexperience: Pads cause the soles to soften so I want to stay away from them at first at least... because if the shoes don't work as I hope, he'll be back barefoot, only walking under saddle, and still on a pony diet. I also want to stay away from clips because they aren't great for the hoof. But I do want frog stimulation if we aren't able to get that with just a normal shaped shoe. So the shoe must be thin enough to not have to change the foot too much at all and still have the frog in contact with the ground. If I can't find that, the ground control type look like my best bet since they support the heel and promote growth, as a pad would, but lets air in to keep the sole from getting too soft. Diane, there are special pads that decrease concussion, ask your farrier about them, it's highly possible that is what was put on Hank when he started going so well Cheryl, which shoes did you use? I think I'm going to go with glueons first, if they work, then nails... that way if they don't work he won't have nail holes to grow out. Ok, off to look for a black marker and try to measure his feet. |
| Member: sunny66 |
Posted on Sunday, Nov 25, 2007 - 1:26 pm: Ok, I don't think I did it right... but here goes. Both feet were 5.5 inches in width.Left front had two inches from buttress of heel to widest part of the hoof:  Right front had 1.5 inches from buttress of heel to widest part of the hoof:  Is this good or bad? I mean I know it's an improvement, but can we improve more? the left front is still my nemisis, but it looks like the right front shouldn't have the widest part so close to the heel? Or should it? Off to read Dr. O's articles
|
| Member: cheryl |
|
| Member: cheryl |
|
| Member: cheryl |
|
| Member: juliem |
|
| Member: juliem |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Monday, Nov 26, 2007 - 11:50 pm: Hmmm Julie as you know I am all for barefoot....prefer it actually, but your statement as to "probably wouldn't shoe a moderately sound horse" is exactly why I would shoe one. Why have a moderately sound horse when you may have a 100% sound one with the correct shoe and perhaps pad? I would consider it a risk worth taking at least for one shoeing to see if it helps. I know you are not completely anti-shoe and I can also see your side of it, but Us people with moderately sound horses desperately want them 100% sound. I agree that a horse that is shod with wrong angles, long toes, underrun heels, tall heel, etc. can make them sore all over, yet all that can make them sore barefoot also. I just have a hard time swallowing that shoes are evil, I have seen so many lame barefoot horses come sound with corrective shoeing over the years...mine included. ex. I am almost positive Hank would still be moderately sound had I not put shoes and pads on...He was able to be 100% sound with them and now has transitioned back to barefoot with no problems (so far). Boots are just such a pain when the horse needs protection 24/7 and in my case anyway softened the sole up...which was no help in the long run. IMHO anyway shoes are a wonderful tool when horses have certain pathologies that require 24/7 protection or support. |
| Member: juliem |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Tuesday, Nov 27, 2007 - 6:30 am: I know Julie and Thanks for the links
|
| Member: dres |
|
| Member: sunny66 |
Posted on Tuesday, Nov 27, 2007 - 10:55 am: Julie, I too thank you for the link, I won't be able to look at it until this weekend though... I do hear what you're saying, but in reality, are there not certain shoes that are better for horses than steel?I know studies show aluminum is definitely better than steel, but I'm not sure about the plastic studies... other than what the ground control horse shoe website states. There has to be more alternatives out there, I will keep looking. He moves ackwardly with boots on. Pads or no pads.... it's the boots. Unfortunately I can't spend $100 per pair of boots to figure out which ones enable him to have his natural gaits. This all be a mute point since he cantered to me from pasture Sunday night... in full balance and HAPPY, then trotted with no high head or bob... but I STILL want to know of alternatives
|
| Member: sunny66 |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Saturday, Dec 22, 2007 - 10:12 am: Hi Aileen, glad Brave is doing ok. Hank also got those black tracks, his was/is caused by the stretched white line. I finally got rid of them, when the farrier/ vet/ me kept digging them out and dousing them in iodine/betadine daily. Went to preventative treatment of every other day. His hasn't returned, I still dump iodine on there once weekly, twice if it is wet out. My guess is it is some kind of deep thrush....Hank did get sore from his. I'd guess the drier his feet the better. Impossible to do here.
|
| Member: sunny66 |
|
| Moderator: DrO |
|
| Member: scooter |
|
| Member: sunny66 |
|
| Member: sunny66 |
Posted on Monday, Dec 24, 2007 - 9:45 am: Thanks Diane I can scrape most of it out with my hoofpick, then the treatment does the rest... it's gone already. Vet told me the last time he visited to keep on top of it because if left to brew it could be very bad, so I understand your freakin' Hence my question on underlying reasons... ok, off to read Dr. O's articles.
|
| Member: sunny66 |
|
| Member: sunny66 |
Posted on Monday, Dec 24, 2007 - 11:49 am: Ok, here we go... Maybe not too upright? I know he's not standing perfectly square... but... opinions please?Left front:    Right front:   
|
| Member: juliem |
|
| Member: sunny66 |
Posted on Monday, Dec 24, 2007 - 1:08 pm: Thanks Julie!!! Does anyone see any hint of underrun heels? Dr. O, If the seedy toe is mild and is eliminated easily, would more frequent trimming be the proper way to take care of it? I've asked the farrier to come back in three weeks, instead of four. I must admit I had a fright when I saw the seedy toe under the founder topic, but his xrays did not show founder and he doesn't show any symptoms other than the black tracks. Is there anything more I should ask my vet? Thanks so much and Merry Christmas
|
| Member: scooter |
|
| Member: sunny66 |
Posted on Monday, Dec 24, 2007 - 1:59 pm: Thank you Diane I think I'm on the right track then
|
| Moderator: DrO |
|
| Member: sunny66 |
Posted on Wednesday, Dec 26, 2007 - 8:49 am: Thank you Dr. O, will do I would love to get your opinion on his feet, so will attempt more correct lateral pictures later today. Hopefully the sun will come out.
|
| Member: rockin |
|
| Member: sunny66 |
Posted on Wednesday, Dec 26, 2007 - 9:45 pm: Thank you Erin, what a great tip You should put that under the 2007 Tip section!! The rub question has been asked quite a bit and I'll be sure to give it a try Dr. O, maybe these are a bit better? Vet had to leave town for a family emergency, so we are rescheduled until January 5. Left front  right front 
|
| Member: sunny66 |
Posted on Sunday, Jan 20, 2008 - 10:44 am: Vet came yesterday (more family emergencies pushed back the appointment) and watched Brave go, he said he's never seen him go better Very impressed with my farrier and said his feet look great. I asked him if I could ride/show him this year and he said absolutely, just bute or equioxx, along with his adequan, conquer and recovery eq. My goal is intro level and, if he holds up well, training level by fall I figure it's now or never since his arthritis is getting progressively worse... but at least now he has two good legs to stand on! He wants to test for insulin resistance, but I'm putting him off because we had a very nasty storm last week so I dosed Brave with ulcerguard and fed Brave a LOT of hay to keep back his ulcers (and it worked - didn't have to call the vet out); however, he did gain 15 pounds... but I'm going to try (with his permission) a supplement called D Carb balance. Product Description: Since high carbohydrate levels (found in grain and rich alfalfa hay) are often restricted in IR diets, it is important to provide essential mineral nutrients, necessary for nutritional support. D-Carb (Balance) is designed for diets consisting of approximately 15-20 lbs of Timothy or Bermuda grass type hay, no grain, or small amounts and/or similar low carb feedstuffs (beet pulp) to provide calcium, phosphorus, vitamins, and trace minerals that would be lacking, given the restriction of grain and alfalfa-type hay (both high in carbohydrates). Hay is normally administered at a rate of 1.5% of ideal body weight, Example: 1,000lb horse x 1.5%= 15lbs hay (Hay should not contain more than 10% starch/sugar). Over starvation may often cause greater increase in Insulin Resistance. Given many variables and conditions, consult your veterinarian for specific ration and administration levels. D-Carb (Balance) is pelletized and flavored to enhance palatability. Vitamin A 25,000 IU Vitamin D3 2,500 IU Vitamin E 500 IU Vitamin C 500 mg Niacin 1000 mg Riboflavin 65 mg Thiamine (B1) 25 mg Vitamin B12 0.2 mg (200 mcg) Pyridoxine 20 mg Direct Fed Microbials 50 million CFU's (colony forming units) Calcium 5,100 mg Phosphorus 2,500 mg Salt 1,134 mg Magnesium 5,330 mg Copper Proteinate 112 mg Iodine 2.8 mg Manganese Proteinate 320 mg Chromium 4 mg Selenium 2.2 mg Zinc Proteinate 450 mg |
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Sunday, Jan 20, 2008 - 12:57 pm: WOW Aileen such good news. I am so happy for you and Brave! Why does your vet want to test for IR? Actually I had hank tested also and the porker tested not IR. hard to believe. I tried the d-carb for awhile it is made by med-vet? Didn't help Mr. piggy at all . Even on his minimal rations his blood tests were all wnl. including the vitamins. Strange for what an easy keeper he is. At least I don't have to deal with ulcers that would make it very hard to figure out feeding. I hope you have a fun show season, keep us updated. |
| Member: sunny66 |
Posted on Sunday, Jan 20, 2008 - 1:38 pm: Why test for IR? Because he's a porker ... lol...Thank you, that's good to know, I'm going to give it 30 days then put him on what the vet thought was good too, it's from Smartpakequine and it's a vitamin for easy keepers. His CBC and panels are normal...but just...so I'm going to give Dcarb a shot. What I thought odd was that both the Dcarb and the easy keeper vitamin both have very high levels of Vitamin A... I forgot to ask him why that would be so significant.I'm so excited to have permission to "really" ride and it may just fix his weight issue
|
| Moderator: DrO |
|
| Member: sunny66 |
Posted on Monday, Jan 21, 2008 - 10:33 am: Thank you Dr. O! I guess I was confused because the other vitamins I looked at didn't have as much Vit A, but the ones targeted for easy keepers/IR did. My hay is GOOD, soft and green so I didn't think it was necessary, but now that he's going to go back to work next month I want to boost him up a bit. Vet did say to supplement with Vit E (as per your article) with the dcarb.In case anyone is interested, following is the list for the multi vitamin for easykeepers I'm going to try next, my vet rolled his eyes a bit at the herbs but thought it would be ok: Flax Seed Meal, Calcium Carbonate, Calcium Ascorbate, Monosodium Phosphate, Potassium Chloride, Magnesium Oxide, Magnesium Proteinate, Magnesium Silicate, Salt, Zinc Polysaccharide Complex, Zinc Sulfate, Zinc Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Copper Sulfate, Copper Polysaccharide Complex, Manganese Polysaccharide Complex, Manganese Sulfate, Manganese Proteinate, Iron Polysaccharide Complex, Iron Sulfate, Cobalt Carbonate, Cobalt Polysaccharide Complex, Ethylenediamine DihyDrOiodide, Chromium Yeast, Sodium Selenite, Selenium Yeast, Vitamin A Acetate, D-Activated Animal Sterol (Source of Vitamin D3), Vitamin E Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Niacin, Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine HyDrOchloride, Biotin, Vitamin B12, Folic Acid, Inositol, Choline Chloride, Ascorbic Acid, Menadione Sodium Bisulfate Complex, Beta Carotene, L-Threonine, Creatine, DL-Methionine, Yucca Schididera Extract, L-Lysine, Grape Seed Pumice (Seed and Skin), Distillers, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Enterococcus Fermentation Product, Active Live Yeast, Dried Aspergillus Oryzae Fermentation Extract, Dried Bacillus Subtillus Fermentation Extract, Dried Aspergillus Niger Meal, Cold Processed Vegetable Oil, Dried Kelp, Natural and Artificial Flavors, Mannose Oligosaccharide, Fructooligosaccharides. Crude Protein 11% Fat 8% Vitamin A 17000 IU Vitamin D 3250 IU Vitamin E 750 IU Vitamin K 15 mg Vitamin C 575 mg Thiamine (B1) 85 mg Riboflavin (B2) 85 mg Niacin (B3) 425 mg Pantothenic Acid (B5) 85 mg Pyridoxine (B6) 85 mg Vitamin B12 425 mcg Folic Acid 30 mg Biotin 3.5 mg Inositol 125 mg Choline 70 mg Calcium 5.00% Phosphorous 2.00% Magnesium 2.40% Potassium 2.5% Salt 6.00% Silicon 0.50% Iron 137.50 mg Manganese 150 mg Copper 100 mg Zinc 400 mg Selenium 1.5 mg Cobalt 12.5 mg Iodine 1.5 mg Microbials 350 million CFU Yeast Cultures 0.625 Billion CFU Lysine 1500 mg Methionine 600 mg Threonine 350 mg Chromium 350 mcg Creatine 150 mg This one doesn't have as much mag/chromium, which is why I'm trying the dcarb first and he's staying on a separate hoof supplement. Thanks again Dr. O for indulging me through the years, I have my horse back and I have you and the wonderful members here to thank.
|
| Moderator: DrO |
|
| Member: sunny66 |
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 22, 2008 - 4:09 pm: Thank you Dr. O, I do understand your frustration with me. I reread your articles and I do think that once he can get on a consistent exercise program he'll be ok. I was mistaken with the thought that if I jumpstart his metabolism now, when he goes back to work in 3 weeks under saddle(soonest I can do to keep him on a consistent schedule) it may be easier on him. The dcarb was ordered and it's arriving tomorrow; but he'll go on the last vitamin listed above in 30 days... it's only $14 a month and yes I realize I could do it for less.I really do think going back to work is his best chance at losing weight, as you state in your article; I'm thrilled that I'll finally be able to really work him because it will help his arthritis and his weight. Once I have him back fully, I'll reassess. For instance, I was finally able to put him on just the maintenance dose of recovery eq instead of the loading dose, Adequan shots are every three weeks (will most likely go back to bimonthly when he starts work), so far he still needs 10ml of conquer a day, but he is doing just great, he cantered to me today from pasture... and this is cold weather, I'm sure I'll be able to make more adjustments once it warms up... so thanks again!
|
| Member: sunny66 |
Posted on Saturday, Mar 22, 2008 - 6:23 pm: Update...He's ouchy on the left front and very stiff in his hind end; vet came out yesterday and took xrays of his feet knowing that shoes will be put on. He's been on weekly adequan for the last 4 weeks and he seemed to get worse... his right hind was shaking last week when I went to clean his foot. Vet thinks it may be because he only has 11mm of sole depth. He didn't block him, but did examine and watch him move and examined him again. No soft tissue issues, but very sensitive to hoof testers along the bars and the bulb of his heels. I did tell him that my farrier has not been working due to injury, so he's at 5 weeks now without a trim. I'm afraid being barefoot is actually exacerbating his hind end arthritis and the vet said it's possible because he's loading the hind more to take weight off the front. I asked the vet if he thought I made a mistake by taking him barefoot and he said no. His hoof form is wonderful and to get to that with shoes would have taken MUCH longer. He does not believe navicular is an issue any longer as long as his hoof form stays correct. The good news: we've fixed the front feet, he believes that putting on Epona shoes on the front will help a lot and that I will be able to ride/show him this year. I asked him if he could be barefoot in the winter months and he said absolutely. I think he looks really good but he's telling us something different. On the xrays, you'll see a nail on the bottom, the tip of the nail is the tip of his frog. Vet said the toe could come way back: Left front:    Right front:    Just thought I'd finish this out and I want to thank everyone again for all the valuable input over the years!
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Sunday, Mar 23, 2008 - 7:57 am: Good Luck Aileen, let us know if the shoes help. My arab gelding has some pretty bad arthritis in his rear fetlocks. Once I started shoeing him in the summer...when I ride. It made a huge difference in his comfort level. He is able to be barefoot in the winter and pretty comfortable. Hows the diet going?
|
| Member: sunny66 |
Posted on Sunday, Mar 23, 2008 - 9:53 am: Thank you Diane, I will let you know about the shoes, farrier is working as we speak to find someone competent to put them on since she can't for at least 3 weeks. Vet prescribed surpass for his hocks and I think it has already taken the edge off.Re: weight. He's certainly not thin. 1170, but no cresty neck, minimal fat deposits. Sometimes I can get him to 1140 and I can feel ribs but he doesn't stay there I'm sure due to the growing grass in the pasture. But you remember that he has ulcers so I'm hesitant to pull him from the grass. So instead he gets 2 pounds in the morning and access to the pasture, then 1 pound for lunch. At night he gets 5 pounds. Vet wants to test him for metabolic issues, then if it warrants put him on a thyroid med... but I asked if it could wait until he's in regular work because I honestly believe that if he can just stay in an exercise program he'd be ok, not thin, but ok. I told the vet that he was on a thyroid med when this first started and that he lost his brain... now when he hurts he'll stop rodeoing, when on the thyroid med he was relentless... even tho he looked great. Vet thinks that the dosage may have been too high but he agreed to wait and see. Hopefully the vet won't need to come out until July and we'll see what he says then. This was yesterday, yes, vet did say I could ride him at the walk for 15 minutes a day but just in my arena. Once the shoes are on and he feels good we get to really ride: 
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Sunday, Mar 23, 2008 - 11:25 am: Well at least you are able to ride so you have come a long ways. Nice pic! That grass puts weight on them so fast it's almost scary. Riding should help... I HOPE, as long as we can keep the boys sound. I have cut the hay way back on my pigs in anticipation of the green grass. Right now it is not growing and still brown.
|
| Member: sunny66 |
Posted on Sunday, Mar 23, 2008 - 2:32 pm: Thank you! I have a lot of work to do on me, but he hasn't forgotten and still teaches me even at the walk I'm afraid if I cut him back any more he'll start eating shavings again this seems to work so we'll see what happens!
|
| Member: quatro |
|
| Moderator: DrO |
|
| Member: sunny66 |
Posted on Monday, Mar 24, 2008 - 10:33 am: Thank you Dr.O! I do appreciate your confirmation that his feet look good Suz, how are you and Levi doing? I've been busy myself and not able to read the site too much at all. I hope all is good! It is hard with the highs and the lows, but I agree that we must think positive
|
| Member: sunny66 |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Saturday, Apr 5, 2008 - 7:30 pm: He looked REALLY good Aileen!!!! Free through the shoulder...good sign. I'm glad he is finally sound. Thin soles are hard to deal with, especially if you want to do any kind of riding. YAH
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Saturday, Apr 5, 2008 - 9:06 pm: PS how about a pic of the new shoes I would love to see them applied. Are they glue ons?
|
| Member: sunny66 |
Posted on Saturday, Apr 5, 2008 - 9:11 pm: Thank you!!! That was without a warmup or surpass I don't lunge him on a regular basis, just to see how he's moving and for the vet. Since I spent my morning weedeating I'll start riding him at a walk tomorrow, vet said I could add 5 minutes trot after two weeks and see how he does Thanks again for all your support
|
| Member: sunny66 |
Posted on Saturday, Apr 5, 2008 - 9:15 pm: No, she nailed them (I wasn't there)... I'm heading back down to feed so I'll take a couple
|
| Member: sunny66 |
Posted on Saturday, Apr 5, 2008 - 11:00 pm: OK, some may be a tad disappointed, because I was when I saw that they were nailed ... I'm just glad he's happy with them.For comparison purposes, I've also included pictures from March 22:      He was done this last Thursday, wondering if I should wait a week to ride? Does it look like a big difference? |
| Member: scooter |
|
| Member: dres |
|
| Member: sunny66 |
Posted on Sunday, Apr 6, 2008 - 10:16 am: Thank you Diane Hi Ann, the quarters were beveled a bit so it appears wavy, without the full weight on the shoe it does look like that. Brave needs his quarters done because he gets black lines that start there and doing this helps. I hope the shoes work! |
| Moderator: DrO |
|
| Member: sunny66 |
Posted on Monday, Apr 7, 2008 - 10:43 am: I think I'm going to wait a couple more days, just handwalk him until then. He is standing square 99% of the time, I have caught him pointing either foot twice, but then he pulls it back square as soon as I see it. So we shall see what he thinks.What is also interesting about internet advice is that as a new horseowner, there were things I wouldn't question from equine professionals such as vets and farriers, I just assumed they knew best. Your site is invaluable Dr. O, you encouraged me to question and to balance the feet, when I asked the professionals to balance the feet, they said they were! It wasn't until I got a hold of a "true" professional that I found out he was dreadfully out of balance and that hoof problems cause 90% of lamenesses. Because of you and the members of your website, instead of four lame legs, he now only has one phtu phtu phtu! I thank you and all those provided important input immensely. If it wasn't for all the input, he would still be sore on all four legs. He thanks you too 
|
| Member: sunny66 |
Posted on Tuesday, Apr 8, 2008 - 10:20 am: Update...Last night I saw him trotting down the hill in his pasture... sound ... normally he'll trot 15 or 20 strides then walk, he trotted the entire way from the top of the pasture into the stall to me I asked him to follow me on tight circles.... he's turning like a normal horse! Crossing over in front like a sound horse, not hopping, doing it but quickly and going "ooh that hurt!", so I took him on the hard center aisle to see if the footing would make a difference (usually did), same thing! ... based on this (which I haven't seen in years) I made the right decision in taking him barefoot to reform his hooves and then to put the shoes on now that he's "almost" back to normal hoof growth I think his pointing is just getting used to the shoes and his angles adjusting a bit. Supposed to rain tonight then warm up quite a bit... so I'll wait for the warmth to come on Thursday to start riding him since he's being so frisky, need to preserve my brain Woo hoo and phtu phtu phtu!!!!! |
| Member: frances |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Tuesday, Apr 8, 2008 - 3:29 pm: Isn't it such a good feeling when we finally do something Right. Hope it continues and enjoy your rides.
|
| Member: sunny66 |
|
| Member: sunny66 |
Posted on Sunday, Apr 20, 2008 - 10:54 am: Brave is doing great!!! His movement is much better, much more willing to go forward under saddle No videos tho ;) Instead of the nickers I usually get I'm now getting full throated whinnies ... lol...
|
| Member: scooter |
|
| Member: sunny66 |
Posted on Sunday, Apr 20, 2008 - 12:07 pm: Thanks Diane He's been perfect!!!(knocking on wood furiously) ... even yesterday and it was WINDY!!! He used to be hot and spooky at times ... I'm pretty sure that was attributed to hurting. We'll see what happens next weekend when we start trotting though. I better add... phtu phtu phtu!!!!!!!!!! |
| Member: canter |
|
| Member: sunny66 |
Posted on Monday, Apr 21, 2008 - 11:25 am: Thanks Fran!!! I trotted him yesterday only twice on the long side about 40 feet each time and he was great, (less than a minute in total trot time). It wasn't on purpose, he just wanted to go so instead of holding him back I let him. So Diane, maybe a bit frisky, but still polite phtu phtu phtu!!!!!!!! |
| Member: frances |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Monday, Apr 21, 2008 - 3:07 pm: A bit frisky, but polite LOL that sounds good.The good news is he WANTS to go .
|
| Member: sunny66 |
Posted on Sunday, Aug 3, 2008 - 10:51 am: Just thought I'd update, I've started treating Brave for lyme homeopathically, vet said it couldn't hurt but he'd rather I just give him the money... lol. We're on our second month with one more to go.I've also had a reiki master working on Brave that also does the myofacial release/Cranial therapy. He came out for another session yesterday and he was amazed at the difference in Brave. I put him on the lunge to have the Reiki see what he could see and I have to tell you that I haven't seen Brave move so well in a very long time walked OUT, trotted forward and a nice relaxed canter... however, when I switched to the right canter he was definitely off in the right hind. So then the Reiki man got to work. The last time Reiki man was here Brave could not do any front leg stretches without hopping on three legs. Yesterday he was solid and balanced and allowed the stretch up to his nose multiple times. His hind legs were light as a feather after working on his right hind and sac joint. I can't tell you how amazed I am at this. Reiki man said that he's a totally different horse from the last few times he's seen him. Farrier was also surprised at the progression the last time she shod him. I've been riding Brave 4 times a week at the walk and a bit of trot on the straight only. He's getting stronger, opens his mouth for the bit and says "let's go!" Next week I have a friend coming over to help us do real trot work, I'm going to try for his first 20 meter circle in years. I want eyes on the ground for this so if he seems lame I can stop and if he doesn't seem lame I can push him and hope he doesn't buck me off . I hope this doesn't set him back and we can continue to make progress. phtu phtu phtu
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Sunday, Aug 3, 2008 - 11:30 am: I wanna be Brave. Glad he is doing well Aileen. Hope your ride goes well and you do a beautiful 20 metere circle...Let us know how it goes.
|
| Member: sunny66 |
Posted on Sunday, Aug 3, 2008 - 2:59 pm: Thanks Diane, I will do that He hasn't lost weight, but I think he looks like he has, he's leggier somehow... what do you think? Any change? 
|
| Member: paardex |
|
| Member: scooter |
|
| Moderator: DrO |
|
| Member: sunny66 |
Posted on Monday, Aug 4, 2008 - 9:55 pm: Thank you Jos and Diane, I hope it's muscle!LOL Dr. O, I understand and I thank you and my vet for everything, you both instilled a lot of knowledge in this thick skull of mine. I have the utmost respect for both you and my vet But nothing else was working longterm... and this seems to be... time will tell!
|
| Moderator: DrO |
|
| Member: sunny66 |
Posted on Tuesday, Aug 5, 2008 - 10:40 am: Understood Dr. O! He kept having small setbacks, a week here, a week there...but since he started with this therapist he's been consistently progressing, not backtracking. That's why I said time will tell. I do realize this could be a coincidence, really! I will tell you that Brave LOVES this guy and waits for his turn with interest, so your study may be a factor there (formation of a "sustained partnership" between the health care provider and the patient can have direct therapeutic benefits). You also wrote "just because science does not understand something does not make it untrue" I have to tell you that I did not believe this "woo woo stuff", honestly.... but I just kept seeing progress. I've actually gone to reiki for humans and it's helped me immensely. I wanted to see for myself... she fixed my sprained shoulder and carpal tunnel in the first sitting. Before the appointment I could not raise my arm to put my hair in a ponytail. After, I could. I told her she was "woo woo" and she laughed. I still don't understand it, but I don't care, it's working. I won't need to do this homeopathy forever, just one more month, but I can tell you his "therapist" will continue to see Brave
|
| Member: sunny66 |
|
| Member: sunny66 |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Sunday, Aug 17, 2008 - 11:55 am: Aileen it is great to see you on Brave!!! . Is he still in shoes? What kind? He looked really good and so did you.
|
| Member: sunny66 |
Posted on Sunday, Aug 17, 2008 - 12:21 pm: Thank you Still in the epona shoes, now with the mesh covering the hole and no packing, he's still progressing! phtu phtu phtu
|
| Member: dres |
|
| Member: frances |
|
| Member: paardex |
|
| Member: sunny66 |
Posted on Sunday, Aug 17, 2008 - 5:55 pm: Thank you all, I'm very pleased with him, he's been such a good boy Ann, thanks Keep your eye open for a thread on keeping legs quiet! lol
|
