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  Discussion on Use of flexion test in pre-purchase exam when selling a horse
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New Member:
Ebaumgar

Posted on Sunday, Aug 8, 2004 - 12:01 pm:

I have a 5 y.o. TB that I have owned for three years. He was started lightly at 2, but really did not get put into work until he was 3.5. He was never raced. He has never had any lameness issues. I bought him as an investment horse to sell into the hunter/jumper market. I recently found a family who fell in love with him and I reluctantly allowed him to go on trial to a nearby horse show for four days and then two weeks later I allowed him to go to their barn for another two week trial. They had him vetted last Thursday. I get a call that everything checked out great except he was given a score of "3" on both front legs during the flexion exam. I know the vet they used is extremely tough on pre-purchase exams and has a reputation for "passing" very few horses. I'm of course quite disappointed. I have no reason to believe that this horse has any soundness issues and did not show any other indication of unsoundness during the pre-purchase exam. What would you say to the prospective buyers in this circumstance? I called my vet and he was very surprised that the vet performing the pre-purchase would discover any sensitivity to the flexion tests especially on both front legs. The potential buyers are trying to interpret the results of this vetting and decide what to do. They are looking to buy him for their 13 y.o. daughter who will be jumping him and doing some competition. He will not be heavily campaigned. You referenced an article that you wrote in one of the emails I read regarding the use of flexion tests and false positives on sound horses. Could you please tell me where to find that article? I found in your long article on "The Diagnosis of Lamesness in the Horse" a short discussion by Dr. David Ramsey on this subject. Is that the article your email is referring to? I know I read an article in either Equus or Practical Horseman on the legitimacy of flexion tests but don't know how to locate it again quickly. Is there any way to legitimately discount the flexion test? I was going to suggest a second opinion but I obviously would want someone outside of the practice that did the original vetting and I'm sure they would discount my vet's opinion. This horse is priced quite reasonably already and I've been told by other trainers that I had him under priced given his training and looks disposition and movement. That all assumes the horse is sound which I felt confident that he is. As a side note, this same vet cost me a sale about two years ago by failing another horse I had for sale. In his case he didn't fail flexions though, he was slightly lame on tight circles on hard gravel. So, any help you can give me I would truly appreciate. I am traveling at the moment and will be leaving the East Coast early Tuesday morning and will be back home in Oregon later Tuesday afternoon. Although you probably would prefer not to communicate by phone, since I'm not going to be email accessible for a couple of days, if you have anything you can tell me over the phone that would help me, please feel free to call me on my cell phone (541 990 0919).
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Aug 9, 2004 - 8:39 am:

Yes Ellen the article you reference, whose summary appears as a insert in the article, is the best information we have on the lack of the ability of a flexion test to predict future problems. Your best response is to print this out and use it to support your argument that there is nothing wrong with your horse.
DrO
Member:
Cowgrl

Posted on Monday, Aug 9, 2004 - 11:14 am:

I'm no vet but the insert mentioned pretty much sums it up. Hopefully the sale will go through as planned.
Member:
Ebaumgar

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 11, 2004 - 3:59 pm:

Thank you for your answers. The people decided to not buy him based on the vet telling them that he had a 70% chance of not staying servicably sound even with injections in the fetlock joints in the next 5 years.

I just talked to the vet who did the pre-purchase and I mentioned that this is what these people based their decision on and according to her that isn't exactly what she said. I guess it really doesn't matter as they have "Moved on" now that they have made their decision. I will get my vet involved after I get him home and get his opinion on what he thinks his flexion score is and if its still bad, I guess I need to make some tough decisions. I have come to the conclusion that this is really a nasty business and I'm seriously considering just donating all my horses and be done with it. This is the second horse in two years that I've spent years of training nevermind thousands and thousands of dollars on horses that have everything going for them and people who want to buy them to have the pre-purchase exam kill the sale. I'm really quite depressed and upset over this whole business and really don't know what to do.
Member:
Stina

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 11, 2004 - 4:58 pm:

I feel your pain and frustration and have been in a similar situation. In my case, folks DrOve 5 hours to see the horse after a recieving a lengthy video of the horse being shown for an entire day. He was a terrific all-arounder and the video proved it since he was 1st or 2nd in all his classes. They rode him two days in a row, loved him and decided to take him home with them (always a good sign when they show up with the trailer). Prior to their arrival, I had the horse vetted as a matter of precaution and assurance for the prospective buyers. Nothing came up in flexion or hoof testing so no radiographs were taken.

After the lengthy journey home, the horse had swelling on one knee (probably bonked it in the trailer) and they took him to their vet. This vet radiographed EVERYHTING and pronounced him unsound. Claimed there were arithritic changes in his knees and hocks.

The buyers called and provided me this information. As respectfully as possible, I stated that if one tries hard enough, a vet can find something wrong with every horse and declare them unsound. I then asked them if they liked the horse or were looking for a way to back out of the sale and they said they absolutely adored him.

So... I said "get a second opinion," which they did and indeed there were minor indicators of eventual joint problems, nothing major at the time. I asked them what they wanted and they weren't sure, so I suggest an adjustment in price. They responded with a ridiculously low number and I countered, and they were happy with the number.

With all this said (sorry for rambling), I have had friends with similar circumstances and we all agree that very few horses pass a vet check, but if the detected problems can be explained and discussed, most people can come to grips with what is found. And if they truly like the horse, asking them point blank if they are still interested and willing to accept a lowered price, many will still go through with the sale.

Sorry you are so frustrated and I hope your vet's finding don't support the one who performed the pre-purchase exam, and that your horse is sound. Having been on both sides of this (returned a horse and had to pay shipping both ways) even after a vet check pronounced the horse sound, I know how dissappointing this all can be. Monday, I had an extensive work-up on a horse for insurance (8 radiographs in total) and was scared to death I would learn something I never wanted know. Thankfully, all news was good news.

Dont' get too discouraged.
Member:
Erika

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 11, 2004 - 9:43 pm:

Oh what a sad, familiar story. Horses, like any athlete don't come with a guarantee. Anything can happen at any time.
In our litigious society, unfortunately the vets have to cover their tails, too. If anything no matter how slight goes unmentioned it can come back to them later.
You're right, very few horses could pass a complete vet check with a green light. If we could only convince buyers that the horse is really sound NOW...
Good luck, sounds like he's a nice horse. Hope he goes to the right owner.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Aug 12, 2004 - 10:36 am:

Besides findings on flexion of a sound horse being of questionable significance the story gets worse. NC state did a retrospective study on prepurchase exams done at the school they looked at how well their recommendations predicted what actually happened several years down the road.
  • In the catagory of "horses deemed suitable for their intended use and purchased": 70% were still able to do that work when surveyed.
  • In the category "not suitable for the intended purpose but the horse was still purchased": 70% were still able to do that work when surveyed.

There are a lot of particulars here but the take home message seemed to be: When obvious health or lameness problems are found do not buy the horse. But when a prediction of future problems is made from some ancillary test finding in a otherwise healthy and sound horse, often these predictions are erroneous.

Erika I think the vets have brought this on themselves to some degree. If they believe they can predict future problems, as the vet doing Ellen's prepurchase above has done, it strikes me when they do not predict a problem they have failed in what they claim they have the potential to do. Vets need to get out of the "predicting the future" business and just determine whether a horse is healthy and sound and leave the rest to God. I do health and lameness exams but no longer do prepurchase exams in the traditional sense.
DrO
Member:
Green007

Posted on Thursday, Aug 12, 2004 - 12:55 pm:

I propose that sellers start asking perspective buyers to go through extensive personal fitness exams to see whether they are worthy candidates to be able to ride the sellers horses offered for sale.

Then, if the buyer ends up being too arthritic, too unathletic, too stiff or too sore, the buyer can decline the sale or give the perspective buyer the option to buy the horse at a premium price.

Problem solved!



Member:
Erika

Posted on Thursday, Aug 12, 2004 - 11:39 pm:

Dr. O, of course,I agree. nobody can predict the future. Vets do what they can to tell what is obvious, who knows what the future brings?
Pre-purchase is prudent. Just not a tell-all for what's down the line.
We only know where any being stands right now.
Member:
Ebaumgar

Posted on Friday, Aug 13, 2004 - 2:14 am:

I really appreciate the feedback. By necessity I've taken a step or two back and am trying to determine what my choices are given what my own vet finds next Tuesday when he flexes him for me. I got the impression when I talked to the father of the girl that they felt that they would be opening the door for potential heartbreak for their daughter should he end up unsound in the next five years and that it was far better to disappoint her now that have her invest years of experience with him and then have him become un-usuable. I guess if all you have a horse for is to show and ride, maybe that would be considered devasting. I guess I don't understand that logic as riding is just one small reason why I have horses. And I stopped showing a very long time ago as I considered hunter classes pretty artifical and political, nevermind hugely expensive. These people portrayed themselves as wanting a horse their daughter could bond with and have a relationship with and the showing was minor. The trainer wanted them to buy a fancy hunter that would win at all the "A" circuit shows so I suspect that is part of the problem in this transaction. I can appreciate wanting a guarantee when you buy a horse but we all know the sad facts that horses tend to be pretty fragile and anything can happen. I've bought many horses with just a common sense approach and have done very limited radiographs and if the horse was sound and nothing concrete showed up in the pre-purchase, I bought the horse. And I really haven't been too burned by that approach. I've only had one horse that after six years, he hyperextended his knee and fractured it in too many places to fix. But even then he healed enough to be usable for some young kids to walk and trot around in the field.

I just can't but help but think that this was a really good home for him and they genuinely seemed to want him until they looked at it statistically and felt the odds of him staying usable in the next five years was only 30% and didn't have enough horse background to know that was a number this vet pulled out of no where. She even told me as much. She claimed they kept pressuring her for a number and she admitted she didn't know what that number really was so she she should have declined to answer in my opinion or at least qualify it with some statistic on the odds of a horse passing all the vet tests with flying colors and still being usable in five years. My gut feel on any horse would have been about 50%. It is quite interesting that Dr. O quoted the NC study at 70% either way. Anyway, thanks for the observations and personal experiences. I'll let you know how that goes next week.
Member:
Green007

Posted on Friday, Aug 13, 2004 - 11:09 am:

All kidding aside, I cannot tell you how much this situation aggravates me and how many times I have seen it. It is especially frustrating when first time buyers ask me whether they should buy a horse that has "flunked" the vet with minor infractions that would only come into play if the horse were asked to jump 4' or something else they are not even going to do with the horse. I always ask them what they want to do with the horse, and to base their decisions on suitability.

Buyers need to be educated to the market and manage their expectations accordingly. A previous trainer of mine, Steve Wolgemuth, is a well respected agent who is also very good at managing buyer expectation. His website is helpful for both buyers and sellers in pricing horses, narrowing down what you want or, more importantly, what you need. His website is dressage based, but the articles offer good food for thought for the horse market in any discipline.

Here is the website link. I wish you and your horse the best of luck. Don't give up on him. This is just one buyer, and there are more out there.

https://www.graemont.com/index.htm


Member:
Ebaumgar

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 17, 2004 - 3:11 am:

Debbie: Thanks for your link. Steve Wolgemuth's information makes a lot of sense. I printed it out and perhaps I can pass it on to the potential buyers. I picked my horse up this AM and my vet is coming out tomorrow morning to do his own accessment of his response of the flexion test. I did get a phone call from the potential buyers yesterday asking me to let them know what my vet thinks. They love him in all respects except for the flexion test. As a side note, I had the trip from hell bringing him home. All I can say, is thank God he is so good about hauling. Roughly 25 miles from home, my older pickup started making a screaming sound and pretty quickly it started smoking badly and I pulled over on a skimpy shoulder of I-5. I had my sister and her son who just flew in a couple of days ago from the East Coast and my two boys, ages 16 and 13 in the pickup with me. I struggled not to freak out as it wouldn't help matters. My sister has AAA coverage and they sent out a tow truck within an hour. Meanwhile, we should as far away from the vehicle as possible on a 3 foot shoulder and kept praying that the three lanes of traffic would continue to pass on by without hitting any of us. We were quite fortunate that nothing bad happened. The horse seemed relaxed and quite fine even though I knew it was heating up in the trailer. He never pawed or got nervous or whinnied and just waited out patiently throughout the entire ordeal.

Tomorrow I'll have a better idea on where I'm going with this horse. I didn't do anything except turn him out and feed him. I didn't even move him around my indoor arena to see how he was moving.
New Member:
Mirada

Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 12:23 am:

I am currently experiencing the rigors of a PPE on a TWH gelding that is 11 yrs old, about 16.2 and 1100 lbs. He has been used for pleasure/trail, which is what we are going to do with him. His owners are getting divorced, and even though the wife used to be a ferrier, when we first saw Rocky, his feet were quite overgrown. They were trimmed before the PPE. He has just come off a long New England winter with little or no activity for the past 5 months or so. He normally wears shoes, but was vetted bare foot. He is also quite flat footed.

He was found to be unsound in this exam, due to the fact that he exhibited pain with both the hoof testers and trotting off after the flexion tests. The vet specifically mentioned that he lowered his head in the turn while trotting after the flexion. Of course, he said he knows that TWH's do a head nod, but he insisted that his head movement was due to pain. He moved as if his feet were ouchy, and his frogs and heels were quite tender while being manipulated.

I am wondering if all the aforementioned conditions (newly trimmed feet after being quite overgrown, no shoes, lack of conditioning, etc) he finds himself being tested with might have set him up to fail. The vet did a block of the heel (and frog ?), but got the same result. He took radiographs of the two fore feet, and was able to eliminate navicular disease, but mentioned that the spaces between the coffin joints were narrow (ring bone ?). We took a trainer to ride and evaluate him before the PPE, and she did not recall any lameness in him whatsoever.

We are going to have him shod, and give him a few weeks to stabilize, as well as having him lightly conditioned. In two weeks time, he will undergo another flexion test, and of course we are hoping he will be greatly improved. The vet we are using is a lameness specialist, and I am not sure if this is a good thing or not ! We love this horse, and he is an almost perfect candidate for us. We also have a TWH mare, and really love this breed. The floating gate is just dreamy.....appreciate anyone's input, especially Dr. O, who seems to be a gaited horse fan.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 8:30 am:

Hello Elizabeth,
What I am hearing is you do not trust the vet's judgement on this and some of the fact's you present certainly give me pause: lowering the head in the corners is a odd way to describe lameness problems and the reaction to flexion tests is, by itself, a questionable way to pronounce a horse lame. It can be difficult to diagnose TWH lame that have irregular gaits because the normal head bob will change as the footfall timing changes so even experienced TWH vets occasionally have problems with such horses. The trick is too look for a pattern associated with changes in footfall, which requires much experience. You might also consider getting a 3rd opinion if there continues to be conflict between the experienced gaited horse trainer's and vet's opinion.

For more on these subjects see:
1) Equine Diseases » Lameness » Localizing Lameness in the Horse (this article is associated with this discussion and can be reached by selecting it off the navigation bar above).
2) Care for Horses » Particular Situations & Procedures » Prepurchase Exam of the Horse.
DrO
PS you should review the posting rules before starting a new discussion but we will finish this one in Ellen's discussion.
New Member:
Mirada

Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 9:53 am:

Thanks, Dr. O. While the trainer I took with me to see this horse is not a specialist with TWH's, she used to own one. At the time of our first encounter with this horse, the trainer rode him with the overgrown feet, and found him to have lovely gaits. Mind you, he had not been ridden in months, and was barefoot on grass. I am not sure how I will react if this horse's second flexion test does not show improvement, but a 3rd opinion is certainly a consideration. He is well worth a little extra time and expense, but we will move on if he has a condition that would make him a risky prospect. We did not listen to a vet that declared one of our first TWH mares to have moderate Ataxia. A second vet disagreed, and to make a long story short, after a lot of stumbling, tripping, and falling with my husband on her back, we had a 3rd vet corroborate the opinion of the first. Luckily, the previous owners bought her back.

I agree that the unique gaits of the TWH make a lameness diagnosis difficult, but here in New England, finding a vet who specialized in this breed is not easy. Lonnie Kuehn, TWH guru of Tennessee, knows the horse and told me she was confident the horse was sound when he left Tennessee two years ago, and that the course we are taking was the best way to re-evaluate this sweet guy. I will be sure to let you know how this works out. Thanks, again, and sorry for messing up on the posting rules !
Member:
Imogen

Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 4:29 am:

I use a vet for prepurchase exams who is well-known as being quite tough but who always asks the purchasers what their intended use is and gives a view based specifically on that intended use, not on predicting the future.

I think this approach works well and I know people trust this vet because he won't "fail" a horse in a black and white way - he gives a view on anything that's wrong and whether or not it is significant given the intended use. I think this is a good approach and would like to see, where the prospective purchaser is paying for the exam, a field on the standard prepurchase form used here in Ireland where the buyers agree to state their intended use.

All the best

Imogen
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