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  Discussion on Chronic Laminitis abscess
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Member:
Bluesman

Posted on Sunday, Aug 8, 2004 - 6:50 pm:

I have an 11 year old arab cross mare that was first struck with acute laminitis on the first week of June this year. Since then she has been boxed in a large stable with a very thick bed of shavings. The vet has made several visits. She has had xrays twice now. The first set showed her off fore to be much worse than her near fore. A large amount of rotation had occured around 18% and 9% in the other. After initial treatment with styrofoam pads and bute she became stable. We then had her specially trimmed and shod with a wide shoe and equithane half pads to give support the the frog area but leaving the toe of the sole open so no pressure was on them. All was well for 3-4 days then she became very intolerant of the off fore shoe. Not weight bearing at all. The shoe was removed and after a few days puss was visible in the bulb of her heal. This the vet released and we polticed until clean. She became a little more comfortable. Then she became very lame again. The vet came and xrayed her again last wednesday. He found the pedal bone was now stable and the degree of rotain had actually reduced to 9% due to the trimming of the toe and the heal area of her hoof. Indeed nothing had changed or worsened. A small dark shadow was laying directly infront of the point of the pedal bone. Very gingerly my vet examined this area and carefully rasping back the toe, puss came through the white line. Obviously he did not want to compromise the sole further by digging around. He dressed it with dry animalintex politice and asked me to change it twice a day. This I have been doing and puss is now coming out of the point of the frog. My quetions are, 1. how can I draw out this abscess quickly and efficiently without doing anymore damage to a very damaged foot. 2. Is there anything else I can do to give the frog support that it needs, we use a rolled up bandage as a support at the moment and I think this is causing pressure bruising. I am soaking the foot twice a day for 5 mins in a warm disinfectant solution to try and get it clean. She is on 2 sachets of bute per day and this is having little effect.3. what if anything can I do to help the near fore leg that is taking all her weigth at the moment, I do have a support bandage on the leg and she does have her shoe and pad on this one. This mare does very little work only light hacking and we just want to make her comfortable again. I know her prognosis is not good but am not willing to give up on her yet.
update:-
I posted this last evening only in the wrong place. This evening I have re tubbed and re dressed the hoof, however the area at the back of the sole towards the heal is very soft and spongy looks very like frog degeneration to me, maybe due to the constant pressure of the frog support. I have changed the shape of the rolled bandage so it now goes across the whole of the back of the foot from bar to bar to possibly help with the weight displacement and comfort factor.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Aug 9, 2004 - 6:54 am:

Hello Jan,
I am sorry to hear about your horse, I know how just a few days of working with such a horse can be exhausting. Taking your questions in order:
1) If soaking does not draw it out, you must pare out horn to allow the infection to drain. To fail to make this foot comfortable risks further and possible catastrophic rotation on the other foot. What are you using for a disinfectant? If the location is suitable draining through the wall is a method that does not further put holes in the sole, but the location of your abscess around the frog may not drain well to the wall.
2) For our suggestions on support see the article on founder. I am not a fan for extra pressure on the frog.
3) Support bandages do not help. Really the only thing you can do while the other foot is so painful is to get an equine sling to remove weight from the legs and feet.
DrO
Member:
Bluesman

Posted on Monday, Aug 9, 2004 - 9:30 am:

Dr O
Thankyou for your reply, I have in fact read now the article on founder re the support situation.
I am using epsom salts as a disinfecting solution when tubbing her and then applying a solution of 10% iodine to the total sole area and areas that have puss draining from them. Since I wrote to you first the puss is now coming out from under the tip of the frog. The area at the back of the frog is very soft and spongy still, possibly thrushy. I therefore feel that a frog support is doing nothing but hindering her as she is not bearing weight through it anyway so will keep it off for the time being. Hoping this will help to bring her sole back to normality. My vet feels that she may be growing a second sole (under run sole) not realy sure what he means. He how ever says he will not give up on her yet as he has had a worse case then her come right. Can you please explain under run sole!.
The good news if any is that she is bearing a little more weight through the leg today and that the point of pedal bone to sole measurement has increased between the 2 sets of xrays from almost nil to 7mm ...heres hoping.
Jan
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Monday, Aug 9, 2004 - 11:55 pm:

I'm not sure this is applicable here, but sugar mixed with water used as a poltice on the foot really draws out pus and infection. I got this from an old (in yrs. and style) vet. He also told me sauerkraut (sp?) works really good to.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 10, 2004 - 9:05 am:

Epsoms is a poor antiseptic. You should be using betadine for soaking as described in our article on foot abscesses. I would not use iodine in contact with sensitive tissue, betadine is as effective a antiseptic without the tissue toxicity. Sugar mixed with betadine ointment makes a fair poltice but not a very effective soak.

Under-run sole is not exactly the right term. What your vet means is that the abscess seperated the horn of the sole from the sole corium (the tissue that forms the horn). The corium will form new horn, in effect creating a second sole.
DrO
Member:
Bluesman

Posted on Friday, Aug 13, 2004 - 6:48 pm:

Hi,
Today the vet visited again, mare still very lame and none weight bearing on her off fore. He examined the foot and cut away the pocket at the heel that had been the initial abscess breakout. He then examined the toe of the hoof where we were poulticing out the puss (still coming out) and cut a large channel in the toe, 75% in the hoof above the white line and 25% in the hoof below the white line, The puss squirted out and the mare had great relief. I have managed to get from him a whole bottle of Benadine liquid to use as a soak and have been advised to plug the hole in the toe with cotton wool soaked in neat benadine solution between soaks. (having been to pharmacists, feed merchants and the like, this stuff in the UK is hard to get hold of). He again says the mare is growing a 2nd sole. He was very please with the way she was standing on her front feet and said we would get these set backs but looks favorably on her. He was in a great rush to go to an emergency....Horse and Car (dont get on to well when they meet). Questions I didnt get to ask.
1. Could you tell me how long it will take the mare to generate this 2nd sole?
2. Will the old sole it is replacing just flake off?
3. He mentioned the high dose of bute she is on may well be stopping the abscess from clearing quickly....she is on 2 bute per day and he wants to reduce it to 1 as of monday if she can cope with it. Can you tell me what he ment? I know that anti-biotics will hinder the clearing up of puss in the foot is this the same for bute??
Thankyou in anticipation.
A useful tip.
This mare has a great hate of water....will walk 100yrds around a puddle as opposed to through it so tubbing was quite a problem.
Resolved by the use of a strong plastic carrier bag. Slip the foot into the empty dry bag and loosly wrap a tail bandage around it at the pastern leaving the tie ribbons undone. Fill a bottle with your soaking solution and gently pour it into the top of the carrier bag above the bandage. The liquid will flow into the hoof area. Tie the ties tightly around the bandage to stop as much leakage as possible. The horse will figit with it and eventually the bag will pop and the solution drain away, by this time however 5 mins or so will have elapsed and the foot be bathed. I then remove the carrier bag and place the foot on an old clean towel to prevent and debris entering the open wounds and drain holes. It worked for me, maybe it will help someone else out there rather then fighting with a bucket!.
Member:
Onehorse

Posted on Friday, Aug 13, 2004 - 7:21 pm:

Jan,

I'm glad to hear your vet returned and relief for your mare has been attained. I wish to comment only on the soaking problem and the adversity your mare has to the bucket. May I suggest....

Instead of a bucket use a wide based (perhaps 18" in diameter) grain feeding rubber pail/bucket. They are readily available in most tack shops, feed stores, or hardware stores. They are about 5" tall. Because they are wide and fairly flat they have enormous stability and most horses should find it acceptable. Though I commend your resourcefullness in the plastic bag application, this might be easier and a lot simpler. Basically, it appears that your mare is not comfortable with the 'space' her foot has to be in with a bucket ... so try changing the 'space.'

Best of luck with the foot and the soaking.
Member:
Dres

Posted on Friday, Aug 13, 2004 - 8:03 pm:

i read on this site that someone used old inner tubes from large tires. that was a great idea too..

Ann
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Aug 14, 2004 - 9:08 am:

Taking your questions in order:
1. Could you tell me how long it will take the mare to generate this 2nd sole?

She is doing it now: what you really want to know is how long before this sole is strong enough to walk on. It depends on how much exposed area it is spanning. But a completely new sole will take several months.

2. Will the old sole it is replacing just flake off?

No it will peel away.

3. He mentioned the high dose of bute she is on may well be stopping the abscess from clearing quickly....she is on 2 bute per day and he wants to reduce it to 1 as of monday if she can cope with it. Can you tell me what he ment? I know that anti-biotics will hinder the clearing up of puss in the foot is this the same for bute??

The bute will have no effect on healing. It also has little effect against the pain caused by an abscess. I don’t use it with abscesses as proper treatment gives the horse relief in 24 hours.
DrO
Member:
Bluesman

Posted on Friday, Aug 20, 2004 - 4:44 am:

Hi
I had to tell you the good news. The mare is so much more comfortable now. Almost sound, reduced to 1 bute per day and full weight bearing through the off fore.
Her condition improved greatly when I started tubbing the foot with benadine and sugar. I read it on this site that this mixture draws well. In fact it works wonderfully. To 1.5 pints of warm water I add 1.5 dessert spoons of benadine and 2 dessert spoons of sugar. Still using the plastic carrier bag I soak the foot every evening. I then poultice this with a dry animalintex dressing but use black agritape (this is wide thick sticky tape)as the backing. The mare has three drainage points in the hoof now. 1 at the toe, 1 at the point of the frog and 1 at the heel. To each of these points I stick the poultice. Keep it all in place with some vetwrap bandage and then add the rubber sole that I have made for her. This is made from 5mm thick black pliable rubber. I cut out a shape that will cover all of the sole. I then cut a horseshoe shaped peice that I have stuck on the inside with super glue to carry the weight through the hoof walls and not the sole. I added two strips of this same rubber about 1 inch wide to give a raised effect across the bars and the back of the frog. This I stick to her hoof with duck tape. In the morning when I remove the dressings the poultice is saturated with fresh yellow puss not the horrid black/dark grey type. I then clean the drainage points with a weak solution of benadine and plug these points with cottonwool soaked in neat benadine. Put the rubber sole back on and she is much more comfy again. This mare is still in her box and has been now for 8 weeks, but this morning she had a tiny little walk outside and really looked well, striding out through her not so bad leg and walking well on the padded one. The vet is over the moon with her progress and says that once the puss is gone and the foot settled we will be able to re shoe that foot again. He says the puss is coming from the dead areas in the hoof especially from under the point where the pedal bone rotated and sqwashed the live tissue. A complication of this dreadful desease. So onward and upwards. A big thank you to the person that mentioned the sugar in the benadine...it may only be coincidence but I believe it works.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Aug 20, 2004 - 6:05 am:

Hello Jan,
There is only one reason a foot abscess gets better: the abscess began draining. But you did change several things to improve your chances of a good outcome:
1) you began using a effective disinfectant in the soak (I presume Benadine is a 10% povidone iodine solution like Betadine).
2) You quit using a caustic substance (the iodine) under your bandage.

Note I would use enough Benadine to color the soak water a very dark brown.
DrO
Member:
Deggert

Posted on Friday, Aug 20, 2004 - 2:12 pm:

Jan,
I have been following your mare's situation since I have posted on (mare with foal at side and foudered in one foot) My mare also started her laminitis around May 29 to June 1. I have made a copy of your description on the creative rubber shoe. My mare just started some soft spots on her frog this week, and I also have taped on a 1.25 cm rubber pad (working on the conversions)to protect her foot because the coffin bone is very close to the sole. Vet said about a 1/8 inch, I think in mm it's abut 7-8 mm. I have a call in to my vet regarding soaking because I was concerned about creating too much softness in the sole. The area you mentioned at the point of the frog and the very back of the frog is where my mare has soft spots. Last night the one at the point was powdery, and it seemed when I removed the rubber pad there was some moisture on it, very smelly.
She started a little more sensitivity over the frog about 2 weeks ago. I have been wondering if she would break with any abscesses. I am not convinced these are small abscesses yet but the moisture and spongy areas are suspect. When I carefully removed some of the flaky stuff with my finger, I could see nice looking white hoof under it. Anyway, Jan I will follow your posts to see how it goes with your mare.
ps. she has been on 1 bute now for a month and I stopped it yesterday to see how it goes.
Talk to you soon
Member:
Bluesman

Posted on Friday, Aug 20, 2004 - 3:00 pm:

Hi Debbie,
I only started the soaking of my mares foot after the confirmation of an abscess being present. It became eveident firstly in the bulb of her heel. The vet lanced this and we dry poulticed it. Then on re xraying her there was a large dark shadow lying just in front of the rotated pedal bone. He then exposed the toe and made a good drainage point for this puss to come out. It was only then that he suggested tubbing the foot. The general treatment for foot abscess is to pare out a good drainage point, but this in a founder case I feel would be very detremental, as to compromise an already pressurised sole would be foolish indeed.
I was tubbing twice a day, but now only once a day as I dont wish to soften the sole to much.
My mare did have a very soft highly smelly frog around the bar area. This was very sqwishy and i could easily rub of the surface and it also seemed to be quite tender around this area. I removed her frog pad as she wasnt weight bearing on it anyway. Eventually the whole of the frog came away...this I was worried about, but now a nice new one, smaller but healthy lays underneath. The smell has gone. Could have been trush. I am delighted that you have been able to reduce the bute your mare is on, Does she have a foal at foot?? that must be troublesome in itself, getting enough nutrients in the mare to feed the foal.
If your mare has puss in the foot it will make itself evident eventually like it did with mine, but when it broke out at the back of the heel who would have thought it would have been 3 solid weeks of continual poulticing and tubbing to get to the result we are now at. Hope all goes well for your mare and hope to speak again soon.
Regards Jan.
Member:
Deggert

Posted on Friday, Aug 20, 2004 - 3:42 pm:

Jan
she does have a foal, and her's was not so much a metabolic founder as it was a supporting leg founder, Her other hoof during last trimester was sore due to a crack in the frog. So, other than to reduce her weight some, she does get to eat well, just less. All my posts are under
Laminitis-Founder Mare with foal at side. I have the call in to the vet just to see if I should keep it covered or let it air out and what the squishy flaky stuff might be. Thanks, we can keep each other posted. Debbie
Member:
Bluesman

Posted on Saturday, Aug 28, 2004 - 4:52 pm:

Hi there,
Well its now 10 days since my mare has her pain killing bute reduced to 1 sachet per day and she has remained un changed. Thats great news. The vet yesterday said to reduce it further to 1/2 a sachet per day. This I did this morning and although it may be a little on the early side, touch wood she still remains the same. Sound on her bed of shavings that is about 12 inches thick.
I am still sticking to my routine of poulticing and tubbing and applying the false sole that I made her. Still the yellow puss comes out, but her comfort is most important and that has returned to normal. Indeed she even let me pick up her near fore and bore all the weight down on her off fore. The sole of her foot is changing however. If you can imagine a piece of plywood...made up of many layers, the surface layer seems to be raising and where it took quite a bit of pressure to flex the sole between fingers and thumbs it now doesnt take much pressure at all to make it rise and fall ( and watch the puss seep out of the drainage points under pressure). If this were due to pressure radiating down from the pedal bone above surely it would be causing her a great deal of pain??? Do you think this is in fact the mare producing a 2nd sole. If the surface layer comes away, can you tell me what to expect to see underneath and how I should treat this sole....pressumably it will be open to the elements and vunerable to infection. I am also pressuming that once this happens the nice quantity of yellow puss will start to dry up??? I am pleased with the results so far but just a bit worried about the future treatment.
regards Jan.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Aug 29, 2004 - 9:06 am:

Jan, if puss is still forming there are areas that are still not draining well: I would start at where the puss is draining from and remove the undermined horn until all the undermined horn is gone.
DrO
Member:
Bluesman

Posted on Saturday, Sep 4, 2004 - 3:28 am:

Yesterday the farrier came along with the vet and re shod the mare. The farrier being much more forth right said we have to see whats going on under the sprung sole so parred it away. Under was fresh yellow corium with an area very close to the point of the frog that was granulating. This indeed was where the puss had been coming from. So all the under run sole has now been removed. The mare has been re shod with a wide shoe and a 1/2 pad made of equithane. The strange thing is that she is now on 1/2 a pack of bute per day and seemed to be un effected pain wise when this was parred away and the new shoe replaced. Standing very square and comfortable. The good front foot was even better when the shoe was removed and parred ready for the shoe replacement the horn growth has been great, the sole lovely clean and fresh in colour. no sign of bruising or pressure. She showed no resistance to standing on her bad foot whilst the other was dealt with. They were both really pleased with her progress as am I. We have to now watch for the next crucial few days to see if the intolerance to the shoe returns. The pain killers have to continue for a few days as she undoubtedly will be a bit sore after the proceedure. But good news all round I think. I have been advised that she will still have to remain on box rest for a very long time...but things are looking very good. I am keeping my fingers crossed as its been a long time of twice daily poulticing and tubbing. I realy have just posted this to let other owners of bad rotation cases know that all is not lost and not to give up.... our hard work seems to be paying off. Of course the advise I have been given from this site has been invaluable. For this I thank you.
regards Jan.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Sep 7, 2004 - 8:53 am:

That's just super Jan.
DrO
Member:
Deggert

Posted on Wednesday, Sep 8, 2004 - 4:23 pm:

Jan
Good to hear your mare is doing well. How is she doing with the new shoe? We haven't gotten a shoe on my mare yet but we did get her off bute all together and she moves well in the paddock with shavings. Still very sore if on hard ground. I tried your rubber shoe cut from a piece of neoprene saddle pad material. I beveled the toe a little. I just use it if she has to come out for a bath or to have her feet done so she has a cushy surface to stand on. I am weaning her next week (slow method) and I will put the rubber pad on in case she gets overactive. She has never produced an abscess yet, the soft spots she had were from having the rubber pad on continuously for a few days. I also have used a little tamed iodine, 3% on her sole a couple times a week. It is so true that each horse is a new story with founder. I have read it but its amazing, you just have to try things to see what makes them happy. glad things are going well for you.
Member:
Bluesman

Posted on Thursday, Sep 9, 2004 - 6:21 pm:

Hi Debbie,
You are correct in saying each founder / laminitic case is different from the other. After all the horses havent read the books. I was desperate to get my mare comfy and working with improvisation and the vets expert advise from on here and locally we have got to this stage. Tonight she is great, skitting around her stable and sound. Still has a very soft sole but that will harden in time I beleive. I have been told I cant put her out for a very long time in case she does further damage to the foot. She will be re xrayed after the next set of shoe refits...so about 10 weeks. I hope you do manage to keep your mare calm whilst you wean the foal. This will be a testing and stressful time for her. What do you mean by the slow method.?? I have never heard this term before and generally just take the foal away to a neighbouring farm out of earshot, rather then have several periods of panick with the mare, surely its better to get it overwith in one go!, but then I am no expert.
I hope all continues to go well for you.
regards Jan
Member:
Deggert

Posted on Thursday, Sep 9, 2004 - 7:37 pm:

Hi Jan
slow method is moving the mare next to the foal so they can touch and see but not nurse. On the other side will be his grandma who he adores more than him mom. He is somewhat independent. I cannot take him away as it would be the end of her. She would run on that foot for sure and the trauma would do her in. It takes longer but is quite easy on both. I think she will be happy not to nurse anymore and he is rough on her. Then I will begin small outings for him with grandma, if she starts to really panic I can bring him back. I have to do it this way or risk loosing her for sure. Talk to you soon.
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Friday, Sep 10, 2004 - 11:39 am:

Debbie(and all) I wish to appologize. I was re-reading, and saw I posted "sugar mixed with water" to use as a poltice or soak. I meant to say "sugar with betadine" I must have been tired when I posted. Sorry. Good thing Dr. O. reads these posts and offers his good advice and keeps us straight!

Re: weaning. If the foal is doing o.k. and the mother isn't loosing weight, I don't think there's any reason to hurry with weaning. In the wild a foal will often nurse until a year or two old even. They gradually nurse less and less and when they're eating "real" food, will do it as much for comfort as anything else, until they either outgrow that need, or another foal comes along. Often the mare won't even have milk anymore, but the foal will "go through the motions" when it feels a need for reassurance. In many other countries, interestingly enough where humans are allowed to nurse for much longer also, foals are not weaned until much older than we do here.
Member:
Deggert

Posted on Friday, Sep 10, 2004 - 12:01 pm:

Hi Sara
Due to the mare's foundered foot condition since the birth (may 28) Her and the foal have been confined to a 30 x 40 pen heavily bedded for the mare's foot. I normally don't wean for another 6 to 8 weeks but the colt is not able to get out and exercise either. He has spent his whole short life in this pen. He needs a life and to exercise and socialize. Also, her weight is within normal limits but I have to keep her on the light side due to her foot again and she is ravenous. It's best for both of them to manage them separately. Her milk is declining in quality at this point so it is strictly "emotional nursing". If he were a mild mannered filly I might leave them a while longer and deal with the feeding issues but this guy is full of it and is the most studdish colt for his age. That brings me to the other item which is as soon as he is stable and weaned and happily independent he will be gelded. I will keep you posted on how it goes!
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Friday, Sep 10, 2004 - 2:07 pm:

Understood! If the little guy is like some I know, he does need to get out and run! It sounds like you are really doing a good job. It's so hard to meet everyone's needs. I admire your patience with this mare. Without all your efforts she wouldn't be getting better. As it is, it sounds like she's doing really good.
Member:
Bluesman

Posted on Friday, Sep 10, 2004 - 4:29 pm:

I also admire your patience coping with a founder case is bad enough, but one with a foal at foot is double the trouble. Debbie I now umnderstand what you mean about the slow method and think it advisable to do it this way too. I have been told several times by my vet that keeping the horse comfortable and restricted of movement will lessen the damage in the foot until de rotation is complete, but understand that to restrict her and the foal to such a small space would restrict the excersize needed for healthy foal formation and growth. You do seem to be stuck between a rock and a hard place. Hope all goes well, do keep us posted i am very interested in her progress.
regards jan
Member:
Deggert

Posted on Friday, Sep 10, 2004 - 5:35 pm:

thanks Jan & Sara
The lack of room to exercise for the colt is the biggest factor in weaning him now. He runs and bucks, rears, plays with his toys as much as he can with 40 feet across, but when he gets to the turn out area it will be a whole new world. I will probably graduate him to bigger arenas so he doesn't hurt himself. I am really pleased with the mare so far, its funny in the last 2 weeks 3 people have told me how happy and bright she looks. She is off bute and at this point we are fairly certain nothing catastrophic will happen, like her foot falls off or she sinks. Just a long recovery for the foot to grow and be reshaped. Thanks for your thoughts and encouragement.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Sep 10, 2004 - 7:00 pm:

We have more information on weaning including early weaning at Equine Reproduction » The Lactating Mare, Nursing Foal & Weaning »
Weaning Foals from Mares. I agree that this little guy needs to get out!
DrO
Member:
Sully

Posted on Saturday, Sep 11, 2004 - 12:37 pm:

Debbie....Have you considered gelding him while he is still on the mare? This would slow him down quite a bit, but he would have his mother to comfort him.
I have also heard of mares with foals that due to foundering spent alot of time off their feet. Foals nursing while they layed down. One I read about (Doc O'Lena)opened a place in the fence so the foal could get into the next pasture if he wanted to run and play.
Weaning them side by side also works well for me, but without another little buddy to be weaned with might not make it your best choice. Most mares I think are open to not having to deal with a playful foal, and as long as they can see each other it might keep her from running the fence line wondering "where" he is.
Best Wishes that all goes well.
Nancy
Member:
Deggert

Posted on Monday, Sep 13, 2004 - 12:52 pm:

Nancy
I might have gelded him with the mare but like the vet said after gelding he needs to exercise some and get used to the hose to clean him up. Again, since the mare is stuck in her pen so is he until they are weaned. He will have his mom on one side and his grand mother on the other but I have no other weanlings. I have weaned lots of foals alone in their own pen but they get lots of attention. I will somewhat pass the torch to grandma as he adores her more than mom. They won't be together but they will go on walks together and go to the arena together etc. She is a great role model as he will be seeing the "real world " of other horses and hot walkers and cattle and nothing bothers her, been there dun that. Thanks for the thoughts
Member:
Bluesman

Posted on Monday, Oct 11, 2004 - 4:08 am:

Well since my last post things have improved very much. The mare has been shod, tolerates her shoe well and is sound on no bute at all. We continued to have a problem with the draining abcess areas. In fact a crack appeared in front of the point of frog and after a few days red granular flesh was seen issuing from the crack, now that worried me and I called the vet. He said I have nothing to worry about, if this was due to the bone still rotating and pushing down she would be lame, this in fact is proud flesh that is just keeping growing as it has nothing to attach itself to. 10% Iodine mixed with sugar, soak a pad of cotton wool and strap it to the underside of her sole over this area and it will soon harden. Change it twice a day he said. So worried was I with the tought of using this toxic solution again...but I did. The area is now almost hard, the proud flesh gone and the mare is still sound and very happy. So its a long drawn out process, but we continue. Next week more shoes and xrays. The vet is very very pleased with the amount of hoof growth, but I am feeding her a lot of farriers formula to promote this. The odd thing, she was a mare that suffered quite badly with sweet iche, we have had none of this, this year and for the first time ever she has a beautiful mane and tail. Could the reason for her laminitus be something to do with her not getting sweet iche this year?? we will never know.
regards Jan
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Oct 11, 2004 - 6:57 am:

What did you do to prevent the sweet itch?
DrO
Member:
Bluesman

Posted on Monday, Oct 11, 2004 - 8:45 am:

Hi,
I am not quite sure of your question, do you mean have I done anything different this year to prevent the sweet iche....or what methods have i used in the past to prevent it.
The answer however is simple, I this year havent had to use any preventative measures, it just didnt happen. In previous years when she itches I use (forgive the spelling) Benzl Benzoate just rubbed on the mane hair roots and the top of the tail. Although a mare that would rub the hair off, never did she rub her skin raw, to the point where I had to bring her off the pasture. My feeling on this is that she possibly got laminitus because she never itched...but thats only a thought.
regards Jan
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 12, 2004 - 7:28 am:

I was wondering if you had used a medication that might be associated with causing founder, but see that you have not now. I don't think there is a relation between a good year of no itching and a predisposition to founder.
DrO
Member:
Gafarm

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 12, 2004 - 11:47 am:

Jan,
I found your last post very interesting. I had an arab mare that broke out in hives every spring for 4 years and had to get an allergy shot. The one year she didn't get hives, she foundered instead. I always thought the founder was some how related to her allergy too.
Member:
Bluesman

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 12, 2004 - 3:25 pm:

Donald, how nice of you to take an interest in this situation. Yes I truely think that there is a link between this mare not having the itch but getting a serious case of founder instead. We call it laminitus over here in England. How did your horse fair through the founder??
regards Jan
Member:
Gafarm

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 12, 2004 - 4:14 pm:

She recovered from the founder initially but a year later we found she was developing many cushing symptoms and was not shedding. We kept her going another 4 years (5 years from initial founder) and had to put her down when she foundered on all 4.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Oct 14, 2004 - 7:39 am:

Let me be sure I have this correct Don and Jan, you believe the horse foundered because they were did not get itchy the year they foundered? Any thoughts on why this might be or how this might work?
DrO
Member:
Bluesman

Posted on Thursday, Oct 14, 2004 - 8:44 am:

Hi Dr O,
I feel that maybe the reaction the horse had to the midge fly this year, rather then manifesting itself as sweet iche reared its head in the form of laminitus. The sweet iche is caused if I am correct by the toxins injected into the animal from the midge fly that blood sucks. Normally this would cause the itching to start. The spring and summer this year have been both warm and wet creating the humidity need for midges and we have had loads. Surely the toxins from these flies must go somewhere in the horse. Is it possible that there is a link.
Regards Jan
Member:
Gafarm

Posted on Thursday, Oct 14, 2004 - 9:43 am:

I don't think they foundered because they didn't itch that year but I do think that the allergic reaction may have been an initial sign that the horse was starting some body chemistry changes that caused it to become hypersensitive. I know with my own allergies that once my allergies are triggered if I just treat the symptoms and don't or can't stay away from the things that trigger it I start getting other symptoms like stomach upset, diarrhea, muscle cramps in my legs. So I believe the founder may be an effect of us not being able to locate and remove the "trigger" from their environment. Hope I explained that clearly??
Member:
Deggert

Posted on Thursday, Oct 14, 2004 - 2:38 pm:

Hello again
I was looking yesterday followig Jan's thread and Donald. But in printing out all the founder info there is an interesting report, this sounds like Chronic Lam Horses are more
Prone to be hyperimmune but maybe also the reverse? What do you make of this Dr O? My mare is and always has been prone to be sensitive to certain allergens and vaccine adjuvents, During this last pregnancy we had to stop Fort Dodge Rhino after her 5th month shot, she is allergic to “natural fly sprays” like Larry’s Natural Fly Repellent and gets hives from intense heat and humidity (spores?) Interesting stuff huh!
REPORT - Am J Vet Res 2003 Mar;64(3):279-83
Evaluation of systemic immunologic hyperreactivity after intradermal testing in horses with chronic laminitis
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Oct 15, 2004 - 12:55 pm:

The biggest problem (and not the only one with the comparision) Debbie is that the horses DIDN'T have hyperreactive reactions the year they foundered. The year they didn't founder they DID have hyperreactive reactions. I think it would better support their hypothesis if it were the other way around.
DrO
Member:
Bluesman

Posted on Friday, Oct 15, 2004 - 2:53 pm:

Indeed I agree with you Dr O,but and there is now a big but, If my mare desides not to itch next year, ( all beit if we actually get her to next spring-summer) I will certainly be on my guard for founder once again. Not much concellation however for the horse owners that could have to deal with this problem in the future.
regards Jan
Member:
Gafarm

Posted on Friday, Oct 15, 2004 - 4:34 pm:

Dr. O, since allergies cause inflammation, could not the founder have been a hyperactive reaction to the same "trigger" that had previously been manifesting itself as hives or itch? It's been my experience that once your allergic to something, it just doesn't miraculously go away one year especially when you know what the trigger was and know it is still present??
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Oct 16, 2004 - 1:07 pm:

Hello All,
Jan, after having foundered once you should be on guard for founder whether or not your horse itches next year.
Donald, yes the same trigger might induce laminitis but the lack of other signs of hyperreaction suggest there was another cause. Said another way founder is not currently recognized as a primary clinical sign of a allergic reaction.
DrO
Member:
Pinkapp

Posted on Saturday, Oct 16, 2004 - 9:57 pm:

I've been reading this thread with interest as I lost one of my mares this Spring to the affects of Chronic Laminitis. I was especially interested in the hyperreactivity you've been mentioning. My mare would break out horribly from any type of insect bites. She also had systemic reactions from her Rabies and West Nile vaccines last year. Thankfully, it wasn't full-blown anaphylaxis, but the golfball-sized hives all over her body certainly gave folks a fright!

I was also interested in the comments from the person that has a laminitic mare with a foal at her side. My mare progressively worsened throughout her last pregnancy. In fact, she spent 90% of her last trimester lying stretched out flat in her stall. So much so that she started getting decubitus (bed sores) on her hips and shoulders despite the very deep bedding and constant attention to stall cleanliness. My vet and I were extremely concerned for the well-being of her unborn foal but felt that pain relief for the mare was of utmost concern. We were also hoping to prevent a pain/stress-induced pre-term labor. The labor and delivery went well but within 2 weeks the mare was decidedly more uncomfortable and rising to her feet less and less. She actually rolled onto her side, stretched her back leg out of the way and allowed the foal to nurse while she laid down. By this point, she was getting 1-2 gms. of Bute routinely per day. One morning I found her standing but her coronet band on the right front was a swollen, raw mass of flesh as though the hoofwall was separating from the leg. X-rays revealed severe rotation in BOTH feet and a large pocket of serum in the right front. We increased the Bute to 4 gms. per day and started the application of Nitroglycerin to her pulse points. The swelling subsided and the hoof never separated but the x-rays revealed her coffin bones were ready to penetrate the soles. The draining of the serum pocket didn't give her any pain relief, either. We tried desparately to maintain her for the sake of her foal but by the time two more weeks elapsed the 4 gms. of Bute weren't working, she had nasty ulcers in her mouth and the foal was no longer thriving. We made the decision to wean at only 2 months of age and euthanize the mare in order to end her misery. The foal has been raised since that day on timothy hay, a small amount of alfalfa and some sweet grain and he's thriving. I'm not advocating weaning at such an early age as a normal routine, but it can be done successfully in an emergency situation and still have an excellent outcome.
Member:
Dres

Posted on Saturday, Oct 16, 2004 - 10:13 pm:

Maureen, what an awful story.. and such a wonderful mare to hang on for her foal.. it must have been terrible to watch and administer to the mare .. both you and the mare were / are very strong souls..

I hope this foal is a keeper ...Ann


On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted the good ones!


Member:
Deggert

Posted on Monday, Oct 18, 2004 - 5:35 pm:

Maureen,
I am so sorry for your mare. I am the owner of the mare with foal. Founder has got to be one of the worst diseases for the horse and for those who own and love them. I am going to post some updates under the
“Laminitis, foundered Mare with foal at side” I can appreciate the heartbreak you have had but thankfully your foal is doing well and you have something special to remember
your mare by. My foal did well because my mare did not have acute laminitis till the foal arrived, then we knew within a day or so and she was on all the drugs etc. She did not move much or lay down. The fact that she actually foundered in just one foot gave her 3 good legs but I think she was afraid if she layed down she couldn't get up. After about 6 weeks she started laying down to rest when the baby layed down (like human moms) then I knew she was feeling better. I will post on the other thread for an update, good luck with your baby and enjoy him.
Debbie
Member:
Bluesman

Posted on Friday, Oct 29, 2004 - 12:12 pm:

Ok, Just back from the yard and soaked to the skin, where a visit from my vet and farrier took 3 hours to complete. The mare had x-rays and then shoe refits today and the team are extremely pleased with progress on all accounts.
The x-rays showed a great improvement in the position of P3 that now seems to be very stable. The near fore…the one with a lesser problem is looking really good. The off fore (this being the foot having the greater amount of rotation and the abscess) is also looking much more encouraging, indeed the depth of sole that is present is fantastic. We have had great problems with the softness in one area of the sole, that seemed to be proud flesh growing through a gap in the sole . This is still sore and indeed before the x-rays showed a good depth between the point of p3 and the sole both the experts thought this was bone. On paring the hoof sole back this granulation was more evident. The capsule of the hoof looks very healthy from the coronet band to approximately 1.5 inches down the dorsal wall. Then gaps appear in the x-ray and the integrity is lost. However the rasping of the dorsal wall to bring it back in line with P3 encompassed these areas and now good hoof is evident much further down the front of the hoof. The granulation is being treated by the sugardine solution to keep it clean and under control. The shoes have been refitted with the all important equithaine pads ( a product I found out today that was imported to England from the USA. Possibly Davies in California) so thank you USA.
My concern today was of the possibility of bone disease in P3 due to the amount of puss in the abscess, that when I looked back over my records had been present and draining for up to 10 weeks. The vet then took a further x-ray of the front of the hoof to check for any bone damage. Thankfully nothing was present, but this did indeed show up the area that is causing the granulation. So all are pleased. Especially myself. The vet says a lot of this radical treatment’s success is not only in me listening to what they are saying and following it to the letter, but also having a positive mental attitude that all of us as a team have……and I must add here, The horse.
regards Jan
Member:
Deggert

Posted on Friday, Oct 29, 2004 - 2:36 pm:

Hi Jan
so glad things are going well, since our mares foundered almost the same day it nice to have someone to follow along with on our progress. Has the abscess stopped now and I assume the equithane pad is to stay in place so you will not be treating the sole now? Are her shoes nail on or glue on, just curious. I too am concerned about bone disease and plan to have xrays within a week or so. When my farrier came a couple days ago we were able to do her other 3 legs, which means she stood on the bad one while we did her other front, that was a huge improvement. The rubber I am using is from a 3/4 inch neoprene with a carpet backing (it is a roping pad actually) The first 2 weeks of this abscess it took the pad quite a while to mold to her foot as shw wasn't weighting it much, but now this one is totally molded to her frog etc in just a couple days, I do believe the animalintex is keeping her foot as dry as it is, not getting mushy at all since it is wrapped 24/7. I have empties the shelves of it at Stateline Tack. She is walking so well, still on 1 gram of bute a day, I may back that off this weekend to see how she does. The sensitive spot I mentioned where most of the drainage is (just medial to the point of the frog)
is hardening up with the sugardine and not sensitive to touch as it was. The farrier liked how her foot looked but wants to wait till next week to rebalance it a little, she did mention that she does not see granulation tissue poking through. Like yours Jan my mare is feeling her oats a bit. I know after 5 months she wants out of there, she tries to open her gate when I leave it un hooked while my husband and I are working on her, she actually did trot the other day for a few feet, scary. Anyway, I will tell you the shoe we use on her supporting foot has done a great job - check it out at www.equithotics.com. My farrier is very happy with these on horses with navicular, arthritis, chronic laminitis, I guess lots of endurance horses are wearing them just for the support, protection and traction.
will keep in touch, all the best, Debbie

Member:
Bluesman

Posted on Sunday, Dec 5, 2004 - 5:48 am:

Thought it time for an update. The mare is great, no bute, no treatment just the shoes with equithane pads, She is doing so well. Still stabled but occasionally, once or twice a week is allowed to wander around the yard. Sound and perky and well on the way to a full recovery. I wont be able to ride her for 18 months I have been told, but thats no problem and it will be 3 years before I can breed from her, this is all due my vet says to the extra weight she would be bearing through p3 on each occasion. The sole of her bad foot has now regained a nice concaved shape too. Hard work and nursing a seriously injured horse has taken its toll on my back and bank balance but its been worth it.
Regards Jan
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Dec 5, 2004 - 8:50 am:

Hello Jan,
Excellent news. Wow, 18 months that is a bit harsh: 2 complete turn overs of the horn of the wall. I usually follow these things with periodic radiographs to assess trimming and shoeing and I use the point that the foot is no longer improving and then wait about 3 months more. Usually a year is about as long as I ever go with a acute founder with rotation but I could see where there might be exceptions. Let us know if anything interesting happens.
DrO
Member:
Deggert

Posted on Monday, Dec 6, 2004 - 1:53 pm:

Hi Jan
Glad to hear it is going well. My mare is doing well too, I will post under my thread on that. I was wondering what you felt the cause of her initial founder was? I may have missed this when I scanned the posts again.

Debbie
Member:
Bluesman

Posted on Friday, Apr 15, 2005 - 9:24 am:

Thought it time for an update. Talky the mare in question is doing great. The farrier attended her this morning is is really pleased with the soundness of the mare, the strength of new hoof and the shape that the hoof is now growing in, still being re shod every 6 weeks and have hind shoes set on the front feet with serious rasping to the toe, but it all seems to be working and she is out and grazing with the others. A long hard road we have travelled since this first episode of laminitus struck us. It will be 1 year next month. But who would have thought with time and dedication and following strict instructions to the letter we would have come this far. The grass is now beginning to grow in abundance over here in England and we are strip grazing and talky has a muzzel made of neoprene that she wears to stop the vast intake of grass that she so dearly loves. I hope this story gives others hope. I have attached two photos to this message. The first shows the underside of the sole of the near fore, which was not so badly effected and the 2nd tries to show the angle that the farrier is trying to attain with the serious rasping to the front wall of the hoor. You can also see in the 2nd the ridges growing down from the coronet band. I am sorry that these photos are not clearer for you.
Regards Jan
Member:
Bluesman

Posted on Friday, Apr 15, 2005 - 9:31 am:


Member:
Deggert

Posted on Friday, Apr 15, 2005 - 1:20 pm:

Jan
I was just thinking of you yesterday, my mare foundered almost to the day that Talky did @
May 28 '04. I am so glad she is doing great, so is my mare. It has been a long haul but so worthwhile. I am hand walking her but in her pen she trots and has a great time, very sound now and we just put a shoe on her about 2 weeks ago.
Her colt is doing great too, no ill effects of having to be confined with her for the first 6 months of his life. Isn't it a great feeling that you accomplished her recovery, with help of course, when I walk my mare around the ranch I am so proud of her.
Continued good luck, Debbie
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Apr 15, 2005 - 10:28 pm:

Thats great Jan. Are they still saying over a year to use the horse?
DrO
Member:
Bluesman

Posted on Saturday, Apr 16, 2005 - 2:24 am:

Dear Dr O,
Yes indeed it will be a further year before the horse can be ridden, and a further year before i can breed from her again. Seems a hard schedule but if it works so be it. She was boxed totally for a period of 9 months but seemed to adjust ok to this strict situation. Thank you for your interest in this case.
Regards Jan
Member:
Skeller

Posted on Saturday, Apr 16, 2005 - 10:31 pm:

Thanks Jan, reading your story really helped me as I'm going through my first laminitic episode with our gelding. (under vaccine reactions horse tucked up and trembling). Unfortunately when I was in the middle of the initial onslaught I missed reading some the past postings and am now catching up. I have Debbie E to thank for pushing me to be more agressive even though initially we thought this was mild as he wasn't reacting to the hoof testers and wasn't standing abnormally. Cody is stabilized now but it will be at least 8 months for him. Hopefully no abscesses. Talky is very lucky to have you with your dedication! Sandi
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