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  Discussion on BOWED KNEE
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Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Saturday, Aug 21, 2004 - 10:12 am:

We have 19 yr old Arabian mare who we've had for over 13 yrs. About 3 yrs ago, she began showing signs of lameness, left front. It's been an off and on again type lameness, never completely disappearing, but at times being hardly noticeable. We were told by vet it was her digital flexor tendon, maybe some arthritis. I've had her on various types of joint supplements and natural pain/inflammation supplements.

A couple of weeks ago, she started stumbling at a walk, almost falling to her knees. My farrier was out 4 days ago, and pointed out that her knee was really bowing out. (I was always watching her from the side, thought she was just over on the knees more) From the front, the left leg was really bowed out, and even at a slow walk in the barn she stumbled. After trimming her, she was/is better but the knee being out is still obvious, as is the weakness.

My farrier used some sort of heat seeking device, and found about a 3 to 4 degree difference in temp on that leg, with the higher temp was on the inside of her knee cap.

This mare has been ridden lightly by my little girl at a walk and some trotting in an arena only, for the last 3 yrs. My farriers advice was to not ride her again, as that leg could go anytime. Let me add that this mares only foal broke his front leg while doing an easy canter around the pasture one day. So I am thinking this may be a hereditary condition.

From what I read under lameness, knee problems, it appears that there isn't much to be done that gaurantees results concerning knees. At this point my husband feels we should put her down, instead of waiting for her to shatter her leg and then having to put her down.

We haven't done any x-rays or any type of diagnostics being IN MY OPINION that the answer is pretty much the same when it comes to lameness with horses; you give them something for pain/inflammation, and to rebuild the joint/tendon etc. After rest and immediate therapy of course. I am not interested in "blocking the pain" to keep her useable, because I am afraid she could still go down and someone get hurt.

What I'd like to hear from others is:

A) Would putting her down be the best idea? Does
it seem a knee bowed out would indeed shatter
eventually?

B) What kind of conformation problems would cause
leg problems such as this?

C) I would be interested in finding out about
Massage/stretches to help her be more
comfortable.

It is my belief that as with humans, a knee problem isn't a just a knee problem. A weak/bad knee is the result of that knee compensating for a hip being out, leg muscles being weak, etc. I understand that for people, but am not sure how to apply it to horses. I would like to know how to help her strengthen the right areas to take pressure off the knee

Of course, this ol' girl is a sweet as can be, taught my husband and 3 of our children to ride. Perfect personality, bomb proof, always did anything asked of her. She is a little crabby now, so I know she is hurting because that's so not like her.

Angie


Member:
Mrose

Posted on Saturday, Aug 21, 2004 - 12:18 pm:

Hi Angie-Sometimes in humans, and I would assume horses, a knee problem really is just a knee problem, although what you say can also be true.

Have you had any x-rays done? Could this be arthritis? a bone chip? I would sure look at all the alternatives and not give up on her yet.

We have a mare that had to have surgery for torn ligements in the knee and although her knee is ungainly looking, she does pretty good on it. She runs and bucks in pasture, and is sound to do easy trail riding. She has off days, as do I, but generally does good. I'm glad we spent the time and money on her and didn't have her "put down."

btw-I'm also glad no one "put me down" when my knees gave out!!
Member:
Sparky

Posted on Saturday, Aug 21, 2004 - 1:13 pm:

Angie - our dog physio lady who has K9H2O - indoor swimming therapy for dogs - has just recently become the distributor for a horsebrace product - I have not seen it or used it but she just gave me a pamphlet. It may be worth checking out this site? https://www.horsebrace.com
Have you heard of this Dr. O?
It is very hard to make the call as to what amount of pain is tolerable or "normal" before we consider putting our animals down. I have made the decision twice now to give my horse and my dog a chance at recovery and they have both been worth it. During the time I questioned myself daily as to am I doing the right thing. Our 12 yr old lab mix is back chasing balls and playing with the kids after rupturing a disk and becoming paralized.
good luck
Janet Schmidt
Member:
Sparky

Posted on Saturday, Aug 21, 2004 - 1:18 pm:

Angie - do a search for NTD Equine Brace and there are a few sites that have some more pictures and information
Janet
Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Saturday, Aug 21, 2004 - 5:46 pm:

Janet,

the NTD Equine Brace looks like an ideal product. I will check in to it more. I have been trying to wrap her knee, but everything keeps falling off. Between my lack of skill for bandageing her leg, and her skill as an escape artist, it isn't working too well!!

Sara,

I am glad you weren't put down for having bad knees!

Unfortunately, my husband, (who brings in the paycheck) doesn't believe in putting money into animals when it comes to vet visits. (he lets me spend on supplements though) I am working on him !! We both agree that if the supplements haven't been helping, and in fact she got worse, it seems there's not much else to do. Though I would like to do an x-ray to see if there is a bone chip.

Maybe if I can gather enough ammo here to warrent a visit to the vet, my hubby will change his mind.
For example a bonechip, how much chance of it showing up on an x-ray? Isn't it possible to be missed also?

I think she's just had 19 yrs of stress on this leg and if supplements haven't helped, putting out lots of money for tests wouldn't serve much purpose. After all, besides something for pain/inflammation and to rebuild, what else is there? That's why I asked about massage/stretching etc.

Also my farrier felt the same way; as a former endurance rider and farrier for rides I respect his views. If anyone around here is gonna know about lameness and legs, he's the one. He knows what she's been on for supplements, and her way of moving, having been her farrier for the last 8 yrs.

I did just start her on a new supplement with the Hyluronic Acid in it. In fact she started that the day he was here to trim her so I won't know results for awhile.

If I have my way (and my daughters way) she will live out the rest of her life here, I'll probably have to sell other horses to be able to afford to keep her comfy is all.
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Saturday, Aug 21, 2004 - 6:06 pm:

Wow! That equine leg brace looks almost exactly like the one for humans. That's great! I'd be interested to know how much it helps an adult horse. It looks like it would be especially good for foals. Of course, the people ones help a lot, so would suspect the equine ones do too. Very interesting.

Angie- We have our mare on glucosomine and Hyluronic Acid also and I think it really helps her. If she goes very long without having any she seems much more uncomfortable and stiff.
Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Saturday, Aug 21, 2004 - 6:07 pm:

A note here;

On the website https://thoroughbredsonly.com/horseman_services/ntd_equine_brace.html I found the NTD Equine Brace. There are 3 pictures of a horse named "Peanuts" who is wearing the knee brace. My mares leg looked pretty close to the first picture before she was trimmed, looks a little better after farrier trimmed her.

I plan on checking on this brace 1st thing Monday morning.

Thank you Janet!!!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Aug 22, 2004 - 8:49 am:

First let's address the thought that "there is not to be much done for knee (carpus) problems in horses. This is just not so, as always it depends on the nature of the problem:
  • If infection in the knee is not addressed within 24 hours permanant arthritis results.
  • If a chip of bone in the knee is not removed permanant arthritis results and the time frame can be from a few days with a big chip to several years with a small chip.
  • If there is blunt trauma resulting in inflammation, oral medications may not be able to calm it out quickly enough and injections into the knee may prevent arthritis.


An accurate diagnosis, treatment, and prognosis does depend on a thorough exam and radiographs. If I understand Angies post above the knee sounds like it has a collapsed carpal bone either from primary fracture or secondary to arthritis. This collapsed bone is what causes the bowed out when looking at the front. In my experience this will worsen without splinting that "pulls the knee" back to the midline and the NTD brace above may just be the ticket to prolong this horses comfort at pasture, if the arthritis is not so severe that the knee is going to freeze up soon.
DrO
Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Sunday, Aug 22, 2004 - 9:59 am:

DR.,

Thank you for responding. I will print out your reply and show it to my husband, and discuss your ideas. I guess we both thought it was just a tendon problem and it would heal in time. In fact it did seem to get better at times, and this new "bowing" problem seems to have come up suddenly. I say that based on my farrier saying she got really bad since he last saw her.

This is really scary; my 2 yrs olds are both showing signs of lameness too. Just a little bit.
Which leads to my next question:

How would a horse get an infection in her knee? Or anywhere in a bone? from a sliver, or wound, or can it be something that starts in the inside? How does one test for that?

I never saw swelling or felt heat in this mare, nor do I see anything in my 2 yr olds that are gimpy at the trot. (Beginning to wonder what's in the water!!! Maybe my guys' idea of selling the horses and buying another 4 Wheeler is a good plan!!!)

Will wrapping with vetrap help this til the brace can be obtained? I will be outa town from Tuesday til next Sunday, so I am probably looking at 3 weeks til I can get this brace, and even that depends on vets here, and if I can find someone to trailer her, and the actual cost of the brace. My 16 yr old son will be here, but he isn't real keen on horses. I am giving him orders to keep her stalled while the rest are on pasture, then she can be out in the holding area with hay over night with the rest of the herd.

DrO,

you refer to arthritis several times in your reply; wouldn't the glucosamine/joint supplements have helped this? and wouldn't that mean that the collapsed bone came from a fracture? Could you elaborate more on what you mean abut the collapsed carpal bone from arthritis? Would the heat on the inside of the knee also indicate what you are referring to? Remember my farrier said it was about 4 degrees warmer there.

If I am understanding what you are saying, you say this horse will at best be able to be keep comfortable as a pasture pet. And that may be iffy also.

Thank you for your time.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Aug 23, 2004 - 6:04 am:

For adult horses infection usually is from penetrating wounds but occasionally occurs by way of the blood stream.

The Vetwrap would not give this support that is needed. But if it is changing rapidly splinting might help, but I would get a veterinarian to help with this.

Arthritis is always the sequelae to a unstable joint or joint environment. With a knee joint that is bowed in the manner you describe above (again: all of this depends on whether I understand your post correctly) it is unlikely that glucosamines are likely to be of benefit.

The knee is made up of lots of little bones. If there has been a degenerative or inflammatory process going on for a while one of the bones may have become weakened and fractured or collapsed, causing the deformity you describe.

An accurate diagnosis, treatment, and prognosis does depend on a thorough exam and radiographs, Angie. I really am imploring you to get professional help with this problem because I can only make guesses at what is happening.
DrO
Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Monday, Aug 23, 2004 - 9:46 am:

DrO, I do consider your advice professional btw!! /Seriously, I do understand what you are saying that it needs to be looked at and accurately diagnosed. We need to decide on our end if we wish to pursue this, and in all likely hood end up with lots of money put into a horse that is just a pasture pet. Or maybe not.

Thank you answering my questions in more detail. I do so appreciate it.

I am not able to keep the knee wrapped, although I will try again, following pictures from an old book. Fancy seems to be comfortable, stands with that leg more under her chest, so she's compensating.

I will update when I know more, or something changes.

Respectfully,

Angie
Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Monday, Aug 23, 2004 - 9:57 am:

An added note here; I looked again at the pictures of the horse on the website link I posted above for the equine brace. Fancys knee is turned more to the outside, and if I remember correctly, her foot facing more forward, and maybe points out also. Still adds up to a very weak knee, just thought I'd put this out there.









Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 24, 2004 - 7:45 am:

UPDATE:

I decided to have my regular vet out yesterday to get her take on Fancy's knee. My vet does not have an x-ray machine, which I knew, but I wanted to hear her opinion before I leave town for the rest of the week. (to see my new grandson!!)

She said the same as my farrier: the knee will continue to get worse. We can spend to do all kinds of things to pinpoint what the problem is, but it won't change the fact that it will continue to get worse. She has seen this many times before. Fancy may be good for a few weeks, or a couple of years before the knee either gives out and she goes down, or the knee freezes up as DrO said above. My vet said there is fluid on/around the knee too.

Fancy still looks pretty "fancy"...her spirits are good, appetite just fine, in fact she could loose a few pounds. Other than standing with the bad leg under her more, to apparently take the pressure off the inside knee, she looks good. She hitting the other foot now as she moves around trying to favor the sore knee/leg. So that will eventually be another problem.

I believe that the supplements she's on for pain/joints, is helping her some. Once those are gone, I suspect she will break down more, at least spiritually because she will feel pain more then.

A friend reminded me of the story of her mare, who at a very young age showed signs of arthritis. She was pretty good for many yrs, then when she started to break down, she went fast. And she was younger than Fancy even.

I have no desire to watch this sweet mare suffer, so as long as she's like she is now, we'll have her with us. But we will put her down as soon as she gets worse.

And now, I am going to get ready to make the trip to visit my new grandson!!! A new baby, new life, and try to put the taking of an old life outa my mind!!

Angie
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 25, 2004 - 6:44 am:

Congrats on the new grandchild! Angie did the veterinarian give you a diagnosis?
DrO
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