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  Discussion on Chain reactive problems & back issues!
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New Member:
aspencr3

Posted on Friday, Oct 5, 2007 - 10:23 pm:

Hi there –

I apologize that this is going to be multiple categories but ultimately one story:

I have a 5 1/2 year old Kentucky Mountain Horse. My horse has always been a sound horse since I’ve had him for about 1.5 years until now. I’m going to do my best, but ultimately I don’t know where to start.

I've just recently decided (about 6 mo. ago) to start condition for 25 mile Endurance/CTRs. Once I decided to do this sport, I’ve been going through the agonizing saddle hunt, because once I found that I rode for longer distances his saddles didn’t fit. I had thought my search was over when I bought a cheap Wintec English saddle after trying many saddles ranging anywhere from $150 - $4000..

Ok, so I decided to do my first 25 mile ride on what I thought was a well fitted saddle. We finished in time, and my horse showed no signs of lameness or issues during the ride. Let me also add, that I was very upset to find that during the ride the terrain was very rocky while I was riding a barefoot horse. After the ride, my horse became very lame and began to develop multiple issues quickly during his 1 ½ hour rest prior to final vet out. He had severe heat bumps along both sides of his spine, his back was so sore that I still cringe when I think about how I could just touch his back with no force and he would DrOp like a ton of brick weight landed on his back. While walking around, I saw how my horse would tip toe over any slight debris on the ground because his feet had become so sensitive. During the exam, my horse began limping on his front right. The ride vet thought he had a sore suspensory on his right front. My friend came and looked at him a day later (who seems to be very knowledgeable, owns multiple horse, and has been doing this sport for many years) thought it was more tendon than ligament.

I brought my poor guy home and poultice wrapped, and iced him 2 x a day for several days until I brought him back to my vet for an exam and he dx with a medial splint on his front right. He advised me to rub DMSO magna paste, Bute and give rest for a least another week. Let me also add that I took him off his regular electrolytes because I figured he wasn’t working. ((He had been on the same electrolyte for over a year until I began the long distance and that’s when I switched him to an endurance electrolyte.)) Once that week was done, my horse seemed like his old self again.. No back soreness, no lameness, no foot tenderness, etc.

I got back on him at a walking pace to bring him back slowly over the next 2 weeks as prescribed.

Once I got about 1.5 miles away from my barn, my horse started to tuck his head in, act up and took off bucking like a rodeo horse. I think he was just feeling good from all the rest and being well conditioned. I was using a western saddle on this ride that I knew fit a little better, but I know not “perfect”. Needless to say, he dumped me and took off for the barn in a panic. When he got there, the employees were attempting to catch him while he was panicking to either find his stall or his pasture mate. He found his stall which had his night feed and began to gorge himself as if he had never eaten (at least this is the way I found him). Once I dusted myself off and got back up to the barn, the barn owner insisted that I get back on him to end on a good note. So I did and began trotting him in the arena with the thought that if he can lope back sound, he’s sound to trot and expend more energy. I suddenly then started feeling a bounce on his left rear. He then started to slow down drastically and began quivering. He started to “tie up”.

I called the vet in a panic, gave him Banamine, pasted him with electrolytes and crushed 10 tabs of Soma. There were a few times it looked as if he collapsed and hesitated to get up. I’m not sure if he was trying to roll while stiff and hard, but he acted a little colicky from gorging himself. Anyway, once he urinated he seemed loosened up, and hours went by when he seemed to get better and better.

The next morning I went out and it was like nothing had happened. He was fine. I gave him another dose of above and called it a day while monitoring his urine to make sure it was clear/yellow.

Ok, so here is the real dilemma.

I went out a couple of days ago (about a week since the tie up) and noticed that my horse’s rear rump over his left hind was very bumpy/lumpy and tender muscular and not so much to the touch. It seemed like his rump was concave almost like he had lost muscle overnight. He was favoring to rest off that left leg no matter how many times I would shift him.. I rode at a walk/minor trot and really couldn’t find any lameness, but more so rather just thought it was cosmetic and something allergic. When I hosed him down, I noticed the area was real hot between his hip bone and pelvis bone on his rump or soft tissue area.

I check the next day (yesterday) and it had drastically gone down, but still he was resting his left leg. This time he seemed tender to the low back region and again between his left hip area and pelvis on his rump. It wasn’t hot but just warm.

Today, I went and saw him.. He doesn’t seem to favor resting that leg any longer, but now he’s really, really tender to the touch right along his pelvis bone. It’s really weird. It’s like he reacts to his lower back all along the profile of his pelvis on the left side. Again my friend came out to look at him and she thought maybe he somehow did something to his sacroiliac or even could be developing “hunters bump”.

Overall from what you’ve read, what are your thoughts??

Could his soreness be a result of the tie up or could it really be an allergic reaction to something? I’ve also heard that his muscles could have suffered some atrophy therefore an explanation of the concave affect of his rump. Do you think the electrolyte change by taking him off had a factor in the tie up? I’ve also been getting advice to take him off the electrolytes all together.

Is this something I should try and ride him through by walking or give him rest? Could the saddle be a result of EVERYTHING? I’ve heard that when the saddle doesn’t fit, it results in continuous lameness because they compensate everywhere else. I want to add that I’m back on the saddle hunt, except this time I’m trying gaited horse saddles vs. English saddles.

Also, I need to add that he’s loosing his hair fast where those heat bumps were. Will that ever grow back to his normal color? It seems to be coming in white.

I just want my horse back before I ever tried to do a 25 mile ride!! Please give me some advice.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Oct 7, 2007 - 11:50 am:

Welcome Caterina,
You present a very complicated picture and some subjective evaluations but if I read carefully the current problems are the skin is bumpy feeling, very sensitive, and now there is hair being loss. Does that accurately describe what your currently are seeing? If so I would look to see if your horse has developed a case of dermatophilus along with his past problems. For more on this see Diseases of Horses » Skin Diseases, Wounds, and Swellings » Hair and Coat Problems / Itching / Irritated Skin » Rain Rot and Rain Scald: Dermatophillus.
DrO
Member:
ellab

Posted on Sunday, Oct 7, 2007 - 12:21 pm:

Dr O,

I am very sorry if I am being insulting and I apologize to anyone I offend with this post but here goes.....

When I joined this site I really liked it because you would get very involved in discussions and help members sort out the concerns and issues that they have.

More recently I have found you referring very distraught and concerned members to simply check a specific spot on your articles.

Yes the articles are helpful but are often written in language that is not easy to follow for a layman. Also if I am reading Caterina's post correctly she is concerned far more by the numerous things that have happened that are traumatizing to her and her horse than by a few bumps. I think she is worried that they are a symptom of something much more. We are here to get your thoughts and beliefs both from your professional knowledge and your experience. Reading the articles is an extra benefit.

EllaB
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Oct 7, 2007 - 7:22 pm:

Hello Ellab,
You are not being insulting but you do misunderstand how this site works. I have been doing this since 1994 and receive this complaint about once every 3 years but I have not changed the way this site works Ellab. I am surprised I do not have an article to refer you to on this however. Let me explain how this site works.

The purpose for this site is to educate you about horse management particularly in health and disease, to solve specific horse problems you have, and to do this for a reasonable fee. The number of questions HA deals with on a daily basis requires that I find ways to relay large amounts of information quickly. Including our now defunct earlier bulletin board which stopped with 100,00 discussions HA has addressed well over 300,000 discussions which certainly translates to well over a million posts. I have read every one, though I admit to skimming some of the non-health related questions.

The articles allow me to cover this amount of ground in a tolerable amount of time. But I don't look at the articles as a short cut, in fact just the opposite: how could I remember and rewrite all the information available in the articles in every answer that I respond to? Not only do the articles prevent me from having to cover the same information over and over but they cover the information in far more detail and accuracy than I can in a response.

The decision to refer to an article is made on whether it clearly answers the question asked otherwise I write a response. By studying the article important points and questions you have not thought about are often raised. If you have trouble understanding the article Ellab please start a discussion, if you are having trouble others also may need clarification. But I try to write these articles with a non-medical person in mind.
DrO
New Member:
aspencr3

Posted on Sunday, Oct 7, 2007 - 1:18 pm:

My issues go well beyond skin issues.

Ultimately I'm asking if the chains of events are related and/or if the saddle could have resulted in every issue that I have.

To simplify things a little more the chain of reactions goes like this:

- Ride 25 miles which lead to:
1. Possible suspensory injury that ended up being Dx to a medial splint and foot bruises.
2. Rode in the wrong saddle which led to heatbumps and now hair loss on those areas.
3. Severe back soreness
4. Rx given of rest.

- rode after the rest which resulted to:
1. Tie up and colicking

- Now, post all has led to:
1. bumps on a rump which has since gone away completely but the perimeter on left side of PELVIS on the rump is very tender (muscular) to the touch.

Here are the questions:
1. Is this all related or one problem after the next?

2. Is the saddle causing this from the initial ride?

3. Could the "tie up" atrophy his rump muscles and therefore causing his now tenderness OR could it been an after affect from an UNK allergy since initial bumpy/lumpy squishy skin was present?

4. There is a separate question of if I should have him on electrolytes? Could not having him on the electrolytes for the week during rest could have caused the tie up?

5. Where there is hair loss has nothing to do anything but the saddle pressures.. My question is.. Will the hair ever grow back to its original color rather than now white?

I really appreciate anyone's help at this point.. I think my initial 'story' above didn't get down to the point and I hope I've explained it a little further now.

My underlying concern is that I've never had a problem with my horse for a year and half and NOW all of the sudden I'm getting these chains of reactions that has led to pelvis muscular soreness.

Thanks - Cat.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Sunday, Oct 7, 2007 - 2:32 pm:

Cat,

My thoughts:

Was this horse conditioned for the race? Is this something you were experienced in before riding this horse? Not to be insulting in any manner, please don't take it that way. It just sounds to me like an over worked horse in a saddle that caused problems, for part of it anyhow.

I only know about endurance riding from what I've heard from my now moved outa state farrier and one of his pet peeves was horses not conditioned as well a lack of qualified people at the check points. He was very into the sport himself for many years, rode Arabs, and Arab Appy crosses and used the Wintec Endurance saddle.

Just throwing some things out there...maybe give this horse the rest of the year off and keep monitering him? Is it possible he got hurt in the pasture and you never knew about it? Like he flipped over?

Sometimes we see so many things and it just snowballs and those things end up being nothing; and go away. And all we can do is wait it out while we worry and question everything, and blame ourselves to boot! Been there, done that, many, many times...just the last few days I thought all my horses were sick, their nostrils were flaring. Well, hello, winter coats and the temp and humidity had climbed into the 80's & 70's respectively! Maybe they were just warm!

Not to downplay that your horse is having problems. Just sharing for some humor. I hope you get some answers.

Best of luck.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Oct 7, 2007 - 7:06 pm:

Caterina I really cannot answer questions about your specific horse as I cannot examine him but I can talk about the diseases your horse has been diagnosed with, how to diagnose them, treatments for specific conditions, etc. With this perspective in mind and taking them in order:

1) It is hard to figure how Tying Up would be related to a suspensory desmitis and be related to the skin disease you describe.

2) A poorly fitting saddle can certainly cause back pain.

3) A horse that has tied up to the point that it creates muscle atrophy most often would have by now developed serious complications with the kidneys. It is possible but I would want more evidence than you have for more on this how you measure muscle damage see, Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Muscle & Tendon Diseases » Rhabdomyolysis: Tying Up, Shivers, PSSM, EPSM. Allergies would be unrelated to muscle atrophy.

4) No it seems unlikely that no electrolytes for a week assuming good nutrition otherwise would cause a second episode of tying up. For our recommendations on electrolytes and symptoms of deficiency see, Horse Care » Equine Nutrition, Horse Feeds, Feeding » Electrolytes and Dehydration in Exercising Horses.

5) Hair that has become depigmented from chronic irritation like that created by saddle pressure usually remains white though it may improve some if the irritation removed.
DrO
New Member:
aspencr3

Posted on Sunday, Oct 7, 2007 - 9:01 pm:

Thanks Angie & Dr. O..
I really appreciate the input.

I trailered him 2 hours away to a gaited horse breeder/trainer, etc. person that I found on the internet while desperately seeking a solution this evening. She has 67 Rocky Mtn/KY Mtn…. So I felt her opinion was qualified, but who knows…..

This is the conclusion she drew, and please tell me if you agree of disagree with the minimal information you know about me and my horse.. I know it's difficult without seeing him in person or knowing our history:

1. You’re right Angie. This horse was unconditioned for the 25 miles. She said that due to the fact he's gaited, it take more energy for a horse to 4 beat gait then all other gaits including cantering. The fact that I may have thought he was conditioned for 25 miles on him may hold true for a trotting horse but not him. Ultimately, he needs to be conditioned for what most horses can do a 50, he can only do a 25.

2. The saddle, saddle, saddle... My saddle bites. She fixed that problem in less than 10 seconds. She put a saddle that fits 80% of gaited horses and it fit him.. It’s not English, but I’m going to have to just get over it.

3. The fact that the saddle didn't fit and the terrain was rocky and our soil is wet causing his feet to be soft led to rock bruises and a suspensory inj. The fact that he had to compensate in every which direction by having a poor fitting saddle and being barefoot led to the most of his problems.

4. The tie up was just like you said Dr. O. Very difficult to know what caused it, but maybe being off the electrolytes for that week before he over exerted himself had something to do with it.

5. As far as the pelvis pain. I could feel a lump on each side that she showed me, and she feels those are muscle spasms he's having as a result to having a poor fitting saddle & atrophy. She said that his muscles have certainly atrophy but not because of the tie up, but more than ever because he was never able to use those “correct” muscles being under a poor fitting saddle.

6. As far as the bumps on the skin, she felt completely unrelated to anything but they are just ant bites from lying on an ant hill or rolling on it.

So, I'm not sure if it's all "true" scientifically, but it made all sense to me, and I'm desperate so therefore, I'm going to try the new saddle, shoe him, put him back on electrolytes and hope that all goes away.

I'll keep you posted!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Oct 8, 2007 - 7:32 am:

Caterina, here at HA you are stuck with good science and medicine and as others will be reading your post for help with their problems, let me correct some of the notions above:

1) It is true the average gaited horse will not be as good at distance than the average Arab.
However we ride only gaited horses (TWH's and Pasos) and the occasional 25 mile ride, albeit at a more relaxed pace, is not much of a problem, except for my derriere. The important question is why did your horse not perform well. Yes more conditioning does seem indicated but that is just the ying. The yang is no matter how poorly or how well conditioned your horse is you cannot override his conditioning. There are many gaited horses that are performing well at 100 mile rides so to simply say this is because he is gaited and not a trotting horse in no way rings true to me. For more on aerobic conditioning see Training & Conditioning Horses » Muscoskeletal Conditioning » Exercise Physiology and Conditioning.

2) Our family rides our gaited horses in dressage or endurance models without any problem and we do have a wide variety of back conformations. This does not mean that your saddle was not a problem but I want everyone to know that just because it is gaited does not mean a english style does not work. For more on saddle fitting see Training & Conditioning Horses » Tack and Training » Types of Saddles and Fitting.

3) Soft feet ridden on rocky terrain will bruise. Rocky terrain can certainly predispose to suspensory problems. For more on caring for soft feet see Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Poor Horn Quality: problems with the wall and soles.

4) Overfeeding electrolytes prior to a time of heat stress impairs a systems ability to conserve electrolytes. The article I reference above covers this and how to deal with times of increased water and electrolyte stress.

5) Disuse atrophy under the conditions you describe seem unlikely as horses standing around in a paddock don't develop disuse atrophy in a few weeks time.

6) Ant bites on the dorsum of the horse from lying (upside down I would guess) on a anthill? Is this a commonly reported problem in your area? Antbites will certainly cause tiny wounds that may develop a bump around them. There may even be hair loss.

Remember Caterina that science is nothing more than man's attempt to discover what is true, and therefore sensible, in the world around us.
DrO
Member:
ellab

Posted on Monday, Oct 8, 2007 - 12:16 pm:

Thank you Dr. O for not being frustrated with my concern. It just seemed that Caterina's issues went so far beyond bumps and then seeing her referred to the skin section of the articles just seemed like a brush off. I thank you for your reply and for your thoughtful response to her further questions.

EllaB :-)
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Oct 8, 2007 - 6:05 pm:

Ellab, maybe you did not read her post well or understand what you read so I will quote from her post:

"Ok, so here is the real dilemma.

I went out a couple of days ago (about a week since the tie up) and noticed that my horse’s rear rump over his left hind was very bumpy/lumpy...he is real tender to the touch"

This is a classic description of dermatophilus which can be very painful. The rest of the descriptions were somewhat subjective and nebulous. I thought it a very likely cause of what she wrote as her real dilemma. The later responses were in response to direct questions. I do not see my first reply as a brush off or my later replies as more complete. They are all directed at trying to help her understand and solve her problems in a logical stepwise manner.
DrO
New Member:
aspencr3

Posted on Monday, Oct 8, 2007 - 6:49 pm:

I clearly don't want to ruffle anymore feathers or cause anymore rebuttles.. But, as I've said before in my prior note, this matter (I thought) went well beyond just some skin bumps. I truly believe that I did a poor job attempting to explain my problem or bolding my questions below the post. At this point, what matters is that I found a solution and a root of the problem..

Great site, great info and I appreciate everyone's input.

Thanks!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Oct 8, 2007 - 7:23 pm:

Caterina where in your first post, the post we are discusssing, do you state that? And though you ask about other possible factors and how they relate to the skin problem first we need to know what the skin disease is. Without knowing this we can't answer the other questions of relationship.
DrO
New Member:
aspencr3

Posted on Monday, Oct 8, 2007 - 8:53 pm:

"Ok, so here is the real dilemma.

I went out a couple of days ago (about a week since the tie up) and noticed that my horse’s rear rump over his left hind was very bumpy/lumpy and tender muscular and not so much to the touch. It seemed like his rump was concave almost like he had lost muscle overnight. He was favoring to rest off that left leg no matter how many times I would shift him.. I rode at a walk/minor trot and really couldn’t find any lameness, but more so rather just thought it was cosmetic and something allergic. When I hosed him down, I noticed the area was real hot between his hip bone and pelvis bone on his rump or soft tissue area."

Not to press the issue, but if you read on you will see that I clearly state how the skin bumps have gone away, but that the soreness remains. I go on to ask the question, "Could his soreness be a result of the tie up or could it really be an allergic reaction to something?"

My underlying issue was to why he's sore at his pelvis area and if this was caused from allergy, tie up or even saddle. This was my issue, so I know what I was attempting to ask. I clearly believe it must have been a simple missunderstanding whether it be on mine or yours, but I'm accepting the responsibility. I should have better explained.

I do believe that (now he's been seen and not read) we've found the problem and a solution regardless of what notions need to be corrected. I certainly do not have the time to explain further as this is not MY full time career.

I can only hope that different opinions will be allowed on this site at some point in the future. I think that's so important to have second opinions while finding your root problem. From my few days of being a short lived member, I have to say my experience has not been memorable one.

Thanks.
Member:
hwood

Posted on Monday, Oct 8, 2007 - 9:37 pm:

Caterina, as a long time member, I ask you to please not to give up on us. Would love to have you stay and share more about your horse's progress.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 9, 2007 - 6:46 am:

I agree this has become somewhat contentious. In the 13 years I have been running this site, we have never had a new member complain before. This discussion became sort of a "posting interruptus" and got badly off track. I apologize for that.

Please note Caterina, this site does not censor anyones opinon unless profane, and that includes the ones you posted above. Commenting on the information published here is my job. My goal is to keep information in a scientific and medical context. To the degree we can do this without contentiousness we succeed in moving members knowledge forward. This discussion, your first here, has not been a good example of this. As Holly says I hope you will give us a second chance.
DrO
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 9, 2007 - 6:53 am:

Cat,

Just a tidbit of advice: It's very hard to explain, in terms everyone understands, what you are seeing and experiencing with your horse. 10 people can look at a horse with lumps, swelling, whatever, and give 10 different descriptions! NOT saying that to apply to you specifically, just as an example!

My other advice: SIT ON YOUR HANDS!! I've read responses that annoyed me to say the least, and before typing a reply, I sit on my hands for a few days, and for the most part, end up not posting more.

I've also sent private emails to members after I posted something that I thought may have been off base, and worried it offended.

As Holly says, stay with us! We are a great bunch, DrO does a fantastic job of keeping this site up, and he does try to help all of us with our horse troubles.

With Respect,

Angie
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 9, 2007 - 7:38 am:

I should have "sat on my hands" and let DrO take care of this as he was typing about the same time I was.

My apologies.

Please keep us informed as to what happens with your horse's health. We all learn from each other here.
Member:
srobert

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 9, 2007 - 8:27 am:

Caterina: Please do give us another chance. Finding this website was the single most important thing I have done for my horses health. Anytime I have a concern, this is my first resource. I have come here to find comfort and solice after the tragic death of my wonderful walking horse and to share my joy in finding a new one. I fought and won a battle with a horrible case of white line disease, insured a 100% recovery for a severed extensor tendon in one horse and a torn suspensory in another. I've posted pictures of triumphs in the show ring and stories of "ghost horses" from Gettyburg for my friends to comment and laugh over.

Both my farrier and my vet tell me that I most likely know as much as they do (I don't, but I know where to look!) All from the information from this site.

We are like a family and, like families, sometimes we get a bit testy. But, there is also respect, and caring, and laughter, and a wealth of knowledge here.

We welcome you and hope you'll stay and learn and laugh and share with us!

Best wishes for a speedy recover of your horsie friend.

Shari
Member:
cpacer

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 9, 2007 - 10:38 am:

I second (3rd, 4th, etc) the value of this site--I joined the day before I got my first horse! I admit to posting questions to DrO that couldn't possibly be answered online and sighing as I'm pointed to an article. But usually the answer is in there and if it's not and I have doubt, then the best conclusion I draw from this site is to make the decision to contact my regular vet.

One thought on the tying up, and I don't know if this is valid, but the only time my horse has ever tied up was after he was running around in the pasture and then fed grain. Just a thought since you said he had been bucking and ran back to the barn before he ate?

I can understand how the series of events could cause alarm as I recently had something similar happen (actually need to update my post), but each has an explanation if you take the time to figure it out. As mentioned above, maybe he needs some time off?
Member:
mcbizz

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 9, 2007 - 6:23 pm:

Caterina, just to add one more person's thoughts about information on this site. I have been a member for one year now, not an "old timer" but long enough to know what I like and don't like.
We HA members are very fortunate to have a veterinarian with so much accessible information. I have not had to ask him directly for advice as I contact my local vet if I have a serious issue with my horse's health. But I have and continue to learn a great deal from other posts and the articles.
Many of us do not agree on other issues (political, religious, etc.) but can politely stay out of the conversation if a discussion goes in that direction. I have found discussions in other forums to be much more rude and far less forgiving if opinions differ. There are many very intelligent and experienced horse people on this site. Owning horses is often a quandary and certainly a challenge and we all need all the help we can get! I hope you stay on board.
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