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Discussion on Opinions on farrier work
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Member:
Shanson
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 24, 2004 - 9:43 pm:
Hi,
I need feedback on the farrier work on my quarterhorse mare. I'm uploading a series of photos. Farrier has been doing this mare for about 1.5 years. Several days after shoeing in mid-August, she went dramatically lame on left front. She had sometimes been short-strided and sensitive on rocks after shoeing previously, but never went lame. Her front feet at the toes had been trimmed really short. This farrier does a 4-point trim and the front feet in particular are quite short & squared off. Mare has shoes on all 4 feet.
Farrier pulled shoe and checked for hot nails. No problem there and hoof testers negative. Same findings from vet with hoof testers. Vet blocked the lameness out to the foot, but xrays showed no problem. Vet's opinion was that she was being trimmed too short in front. Advised farrier to allow her more toe and heel. Farrier is very cooperative and is working with me on this.
It's 2 months later and she's coming sound. I had shoe put back on the foot last weekend. After more than 2 months out of service, I want to be sure that current work is good quality. Length of front feet in photos that follow are after 2 months of growing out. She's a healthy young mare with typical foot growth between shoeings. This shoeing job was done 8 days ago. I have tons of photos...will start with just a few.
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Member:
Shanson
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 24, 2004 - 9:45 pm:
View of front feet
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Member:
Shanson
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 24, 2004 - 9:47 pm:
View of left front from the right side
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Member:
Shanson
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 24, 2004 - 9:49 pm:
Left front
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Member:
Shanson
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 24, 2004 - 9:53 pm:
Here's front feet from the rear
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Member:
Shanson
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 24, 2004 - 9:54 pm:
Rear feet from the front
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Member:
Shanson
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 24, 2004 - 10:00 pm:
Rear feet from rear. Last photo for now. Thanks!
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Member:
Bluesman
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Posted on Monday, Oct 25, 2004 - 4:27 am:
Hi I am no expert here, but from first impressions its looks like your farrier is trimming the hoof to fit the shoe, not making the shoe to fit the hoof. Does he hot shoe or use factory made shoes??
regards Jan
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Oct 25, 2004 - 8:36 am:
The clearest problem is in the left front from the right side view the shoe is too small for the foot. I don't tnink it is because of a "mistake" but that the farrier is doing this intentionally as his view of "4 point shoeing" and moving breakover back to the front two pillars. Instead the shoe should be larger to fit the foot and a rocker used to move breakover back to the pillars in my opinion. To achieve the rocker may require a bit more foot length, but this is hard to judge from here.
DrO
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Member:
Shanson
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Posted on Monday, Oct 25, 2004 - 10:48 am:
Thanks Dr. O. You're right about this not being a "mistake." This farrier trims the foot, then carefully shapes the shoe to fit. What you see is what he intended. Except that in this case, he's agreed to allow a longer toe and has switched to an eventing shoe on front feet that has a more "traditional" shape. She still has to grow out some before we can attain that. What would you advise that I do here? I assume that a too-small shoe should be pulled? And that it will likely to be difficult to reshoe with correct size right away?
Do you see any other problems? I can post other views if necessary.
Again, many thanks for your expertise!
sharon
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 26, 2004 - 3:03 am:
Hi, Sharon,
In the left front from the right side picture, I think the tubules of the hoof are a bit misaligned with the pastern line, ie the hoof is broken back.
Rasping the toe face makes it appear as straight, but I think it is not.
I'd try to raise the heels a tiny little bit, but keep in mind that I'm not a farrier and pictures can be misleading.
Christos
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 26, 2004 - 8:17 am:
I agree with Christo's post. My farrier always stresses that the hoof angle(?) has to align with the pastern angle. I think Christo has the right technical terms for it. Whatever is wrong, it just doesn't look right to my inexperienced eye.
My farrier is coming today;, maybe I can print a picture or two and see what he thinks. He might tell me that he'll have to see the horse move before making a judgment call, and that may be something to ask your farrier. Is there something about the horses way of moving that he is trying to correct,or compensate for? It of course shouldn't cause lameness....
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Member:
Shanson
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 26, 2004 - 9:06 am:
Thanks all. Angie, he's not correcting for anything. This mare has good feet and good conformation. Very healthy and, with the exception of a period of lameness last summer when I tried to go barefoot with her, she's been completely sound. I appreciate any and all comments. My inclination, based on Dr. O's comment above, is to try another farrier. I've hesitated to make a change because this farrier is very reliable and professional, and has a quiet patient way with horses.
Dr. O, I'd appreciate any further comments you might have. I assume that I should have the too-small shoe pulled ASAP? ...sharon
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Member:
Alden
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 26, 2004 - 3:58 pm:
Sharon,
I agree with the others that the left front shoe is set back too much and he rasped the toe off to fit the shoe. She could be re-shod with the shoe more forward and under the toe. It would look a little funny, but the hoof will grow to the shoe.
I've seen this on a couple other horses that were also pretty sore. The all improved with a basic normal shoe fit full to the foot. I'm not a farrier, but I've spent many hours watching my friend fix this kind of problem. Unless the foot flares I want the shoe full to the toe.
As a side my friend and farrier basically follows a book called "Practical guide to horseshoeing", it is a reprint of a U.S. Calvary manual. It has worked for him for dozens of years and is a good reference for us horse people.
If your farrier is not willing to shoe any other way, then a change seems to be in order.
Good day,
Alden
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 26, 2004 - 4:58 pm:
Hello Sharon,
In looking at the sole view of the left fore, is it possible that the farrier is trimming a little too much frog? Maybe a little too much sole in order to dump the toe?
The back of the shoe looks like your farrier has allowed enough room for heel expansion. If you feel that the shoe is too small then by all means go for some bigger ones.
You said that the vet took some X-Rays but could not find anything wrong. If they were a side view, perhaps the alignment on the hoof pastern angle might be revealing and would assist your farrier in shoe placement.
If you are ready to change farriers you could ask your vet who they recommend.
Susan B.
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 26, 2004 - 5:35 pm:
Sharon,
My farrier looked at the pictures a few minutes ago and his comments were:
He'd have to see the horse standing with his feet even to be able to tell if everything is lined up first of all. Meaning the whole leg and horse. He'd measure the hoof length from the hairline. He thought the heel was a little low. On the picture with the sole showing the shoe, it looks like the shoe is too small, and not all together straight. Like it should be shifted 3 - 5 degrees. Unless the back feet were clipping the front, there's no reason to have the shoe end so far up. the front foot almost looks like a club foot from the way the picture is taken, and with the shoeing and trim it has. Possible that the outside of the hoof is longer than the inside, again looking at the picture of the shoe/sole.
Now, I am not explaining this as well as my farrier did, so please just consider these as other possibilities. I was cold, hungry and trying to take some notes on the pictures as he was looking at them and talking! And all my horses had been brats today for some reason, so I was about "horsed" out.
Another thing to remember; is there are alot of reasons why a horse can go lame. And every farrier may do things a tad different. I think if she was short striding after trimming and being shod, that's not a good sign. He could roll her toe without having it be too short. and that's my opinion, not my farriers, though he most likely said that too.
Other things like do you post on both diagonals, what type of riding you do, does the horse canter on both leads etc, all could be affecting this lameness problem. (In other words, my farrier was saying don't blame the farrier first...grin)
I'd have another farrier look at the horse soon.
Good Luck
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Member:
Shanson
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 26, 2004 - 7:46 pm:
Thank you all very much! I have lined up another farrier to take a look at my mare later this week. I'll provide updates from time to time so you so you know how this turns out.
sharon
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 27, 2004 - 7:03 am:
Hello All,
Sharon if the horse is comfortable the shoe can stay until you get another farrier out.
If the only shot we had was left front from the right side I would be more agreeable with the comments above about the hoof angle being too low. But the first photo looks pretty good to me and being able to evaluate the way the horse is standing when evaluating ap balance is important. The apparent misaligned pastern may be the horse not standing square. The farriers coment above, about being there and being able to see the horse standing square from the side is critical. For more on this issue see the article on Care for Horses » Hoof Care » Care of the Hoof: an Overview.
DrO
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Member:
Mosttime
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 14, 2004 - 7:41 pm:
Hi Sharon,
I just happened upon this discussion and it is exactly what I've gone through this past summer! My horse, 19-yr old TB doing 1st-2nd level dressage has been trimmed for 4 years by a farrier who uses the 4-point shoeing. Several horses at my barn were his clients. My horse has never had lameness problems until he came down with what we think was white line disease during the summer. To make a long story short, another owner at the barn used the same farrier for only 8 months; fortuitously she had her horse X-ray'd before she started with him. After the 8 months and the horse being lame on and off, she had her X-rayed again. X-rays showed significant rotation of the coffin bone (the back of the coffin bone becoming lower than the toe part) and her vet explained it this way: by moving the breakover back the angle of the hoof is actually decreased, but then the toe is chopped off so the hoof looks to be a normal size. If the toe was left intact, it would be way too long. It is an illusion that it looks right. In her case she switched farriers and within a couple trims the problem had corrected itself. In my case, I switched farriers, partly because of this information and partly because the white line disease was being mis-managed. My horse has never gone better, there was an immediate change in his balance and stride. I used to be a proponent of the 4-point shoeing, having understood that it more closely cooresponded to the way a natural, wild horse's feet grew. But no more. Good luck, I hope things are working out.
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Member:
Redmare
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 14, 2004 - 11:46 pm:
Hi Sharon-
Lots of good advice already but my 2 cents worth as a barefoot trimmer:
It is difficult to say exactly what's happening from even good photos, as things may look different in real life and in motion. That said, her feet look odd. I can see from the file marks that the toe was aggressively rasped. When I trim, I roll the toe but do not attempt to change the angle. Her heels appear long and underrun, sometimes mistakenly called "low heels." This can create unnatural pressure and discomfort.
There's nothing wrong with a "natural trim," but it works best without a shoe. Barefoot horses who get adequate exercise wear their feet in a way that expresses their ideal shape. When you apply a shoe, that wear does not occur so improper growth can get worse and worse.
I am posting a picture as an example of a correct forefoot. You can see that the angles flow and that the toe is rolled but not dubbed.
Sorry the image is so small -- I don't know any other way to make it fit the 64kb parameter.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Nov 15, 2004 - 7:45 am:
I do disagree with Carole's assesment that 4 point trimming results in abnormal coffin bone position if done correctly. Carole I suggest it was the farrier incorrectly applying the technique if it caused the front of the coffin bone to tip up.
DrO
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Member:
Shanson
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Posted on Monday, Nov 15, 2004 - 9:06 am:
Thanks all. Fortunately, in my case, xrays showed no abnormality in coffin bone. Redmare, thanks for your insights. I decided to change farriers and this week my mare looks like she will have finally grown out enough for the new farrier to reshoe her correctly. She is sound again, but I'm not riding her until shoes are changed out.
Redmare, this mare did not do well barefoot. She has great feet, but they are no match for the hard and rocky ground I ride on...sharon
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Member:
Alden
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Posted on Monday, Nov 15, 2004 - 9:20 am:
Redmare,
If you resize and save your images in the JPEG (JPG) format rather than GIF you will get a much larger image for the file size.
Good farriers can read the wear on a pair of shoes and will trim correctly for the horse. It is true that it is easier to see how a horse is wearing when there isn't a shoe. But it still comes down to each horse and situation will be different and some sort of hoof protection mahybe necessary.
Good day,
Alden
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Member:
Redmare
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Posted on Monday, Nov 15, 2004 - 11:00 am:
Hi Sharon-
Glad the xrays were good. The hoof is an amazingly resiliant structure which can grow out and heal from improper trimming, injury, etc.
There is nothing wrong with using shoes as needed, and I wasn't saying you shouldn't. The problem with shoes is that, when applied improperly, they prevent the hoof from wearing into its normal shape so it can grow quite long and crooked. If you see unshod horses overdue for a trim they will wear in a variety of ways -- some flare, some chip, while some (like Arabs) get long and cylindrical. In most cases, however, correct shape can be attained in 1-2 trims. It takes a good farrier to know what a hoof is supposed to look like, and to adjust to the individual horse rather than to a picture in a text book.
I guess what I'm saying is that it takes a heckuva lot more skill to be a farrier than a hoof trimmer because you can do a lot more damage with the incorrect application of shoes.
Thanks for the tip, Alden, as you can see it worked! I reduced the file size and saved in .jpg
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Member:
Mosttime
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 16, 2004 - 6:22 pm:
Dr. O,
You are most likely right about the farrier and the 4-point shoeing... although I know of at least 4 people who changed from this particular farrier and all saw significant improvement in their horses. Perhaps it's the farrier and not the method. Thanks for the reply.
Carole
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