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Discussion on Difficulty walking downhill only.. Sound otherwise
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New Member:
Lccsi
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Posted on Monday, Nov 1, 2004 - 12:02 pm:
Hi
I have a 12yo dutch warmblood 3rd/4th level dressage horse who I purchased last April. We have been working alot to get him in better self-carriage. About 3 months after I got him I noticed that he seems to have difficulty going downhill and will almost leg-yield on the way down. He is sound when I ride him in the arena and out on level trails. There is no swelling or heat anywhere that we have found. I have him on Equinyl CM which he started in April when I got him. Any thoughts about where we should be looking. He is game when you ride him but this avoidance of hills is getting worse.
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Monday, Nov 1, 2004 - 1:03 pm:
Lori, in your prepurchase, had you x-rayed the front hoofs..? i only ask as I have a young horse that did not walk down small hills well, he seemed to loose his balance or head bob.. I really thought it was a young horse not balanced issue IGNORED it.. later when we started him going under saddle, he tripped out of the trailer hit his front hoof hard in the fall, and was dead lame.. a few months later still lame so I had him x-rayed.. the clinic found an OLD fracture of the coffin bone.. he had never been lame ( I raised him ).. but the fall out of the trailer must have put enough pressure on the old fracture to cus the pain etc.. but .. it explained why the going down hills was difficult for him.. as it put pressure on a weak spot.. he is sound today, i ride dressage too, BUT he still can't do any incline/decline changes on the ground.. bobs his head, seems out of balance ... thus he will ONLY be an arena horse that requires perfect footing...
just throwing out thoughts.. and experiences...
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with SPOTS..
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Member:
Lccsi
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Posted on Monday, Nov 1, 2004 - 2:42 pm:
His pre-purchase was fine. I bought him from a reputable trainer who I have know for several years. I had the x-rays reviewed by my vet here as he was an import and they all came back fine.
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Monday, Nov 1, 2004 - 6:09 pm:
Hello Lori,
Welcome to HorseAdvice  .
I have a thought that you might want to consider.
Has there been any changes in farrier work or shoeing methods, changes in the footing that this horse works on? Does he have difficulty going downhill with or without rider, new saddle?
You don't have to answer my questions, but maybe some things to consider.
While you are waiting for Dr.O to answer, have you read Equine Diseases, Diagnosis of Lameness etc. etc.? Good starting points for some answers or raising new questions.
Susan B.
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Member:
Lccsi
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Posted on Monday, Nov 1, 2004 - 9:54 pm:
Hi Susan.. Just a little more info.. Everything is relatively new for him since he was imported in April..new farrier,new footing, new saddle and new rider, new trainer.. Lot's of variables. I noticed the difficulty after 3 months. He has the problem walking down hill both with and without a rider.. He sort of swings his hips to the side almost like a leg yield on the way down. From his training it seems that his previous rider held him together and we have asked to to be more of a ladies horse and hold himself together.. so I'm thinking it has to be due to some sort of soreness related to the work but we can't figure where.. It does not really seem like hocks as his normal arena work is ok and he is willing most of the time although at times he will lock his neck against you.. he is very driven by the seat and you need to be just right.. I guess I'm asking what to check on him..hips/hocks/stifles??
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Monday, Nov 1, 2004 - 10:40 pm:
Hi Lori,
I think you will need to get the vet out for a hands on look at your horse. Perhaps concentrate on the front feet first and work your way up. X-Rays alone can't always diagnose something, you will need some well placed nerve blocks to localize where the lameness is coming from. I will take a wild guess at saying that it sounds like something in the front end but you will need your vet to tell you that.
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Member:
Imogen
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 2, 2004 - 1:36 am:
Just a bit of reassurance. I have a mare that does this (sort of waggles and leg-yields on steep downhills, lead and ridden). She's a halfbred hunter but I also do basic (novice and prelim) dressage on her.
I was always worried about it mainly because I thought I would fall off her hunting going downhill but she had been vetted sound including X-rays. In fact it's just a sort of cautiousness, she's actually brilliant at steep fast downhills (enormous ass which means she can really balance on her hocks...) and she has not been lame apart from a kick injury once in two and a half years.
Mightn't be relevant to your case but then again... I find the only problem is if I am riding the other horse and leading her and we get to a steep downhill, she will stand at the top and winge for half a minute before she starts down if it's pointing "away from home".
All the best
Imogen
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 2, 2004 - 8:35 am:
Hi, Lorie,
Are you sure that he knows how to go downhill ?
You may be surprised, but there are several dressage horses that in their 10+ years have never seen a slope.
If that's the case, it will just take a few sessions to build up his confidence and all you need to do is to make sure none of these first attempts is unpleasant or too much for him.
Christos
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Member:
Lccsi
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 2, 2004 - 8:43 am:
Hi Christos
He's been going down this hill since April when I bought him.. so it's not new. It's not really much of a hill either just maybe a 20 foot slope in and out of our indoor. We also have some very gradually grades on the property and out to the paddocks and they are a problem too.. A question to Susan.. why would you think it's the front end not the hind end? His conformation is very slightly croup high and he is long through the body with a long neck but the body and neck are in proportion. He did'nt show this until after about 3 months after I got him so thats why we think it's related to training.. Thanks for all the thoughts so far!!
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 2, 2004 - 9:55 am:
Hi Lori,
You did DrOp a few clues in your postings that this is something new. In fact, your horse has had a lot of new things, new saddle, new rider, new farrier, different footing etc.
Why do I think it is in the front end?....Because horses do carry about 60 to 65% of their weight on the front end. When travelling downhill, I am sure more of that weight is going to shift to the front legs. It could be nothing Lori and just something quirky that Imogen and Christos pointed out.
If anything you could have an extended chat with your farrier and ask him/her about what changes they may have made in hoof balance etc. Maybe if your horse is set just a little to high in the heel, he might feel like he is going to tip over going downhill. Just some more guessing on my part  .
My gelding does have known front end problems, which may not be yours and difficulty going downhill was one of the symptoms. Shiny shoes and muddy terrain will also produce the same effect.
Hope this helps .
Susan B.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 3, 2004 - 8:41 am:
Hello All,
I guess the question is whether this guy is just clumsy or is there a disease problem that only shows up going down hill. I tend to agree with those above who suggest clumsy. I would guess front limb lameness could be a possibility but I think it very unlikely if the horse is sound in a circle at a trot on hard ground.
You could hypothesize a spinal lesion that "engages" when going down a hill so causes pain or actual neurological deficits. To rule this out it would be good to have a pair of experienced eyes watch the horse come down the hill several times. While pain might be difficult to seperate pain out, neurological disease would be evidenced with unusual and irregular leg abductions (swings outward), adductions (swings inward), and knuckling over.
DrO
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Member:
Lccsi
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 3, 2004 - 10:49 am:
Thanks Dr O.
Clumsy I can deal with..He has such a great temperment and work ethic that not doing hills is just fine. I am going to have the vet take a look next time he is out to the barn. Since I do dressage his lacking on hills does not affect how I use him and I can usually find trails that have a limited slope that he can deal with. Thanks for your advice..
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New Member:
Turra2
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 8, 2005 - 1:05 am:
To All. I also have a mare who has a problem with downhill and also fast work in sand. Humans sufer from a problem named Ilio Tibial Band SynDrOme which is activated by "downhill". In the horse the corresponding tendon is, I think, the extensor carpi radialis tendon. Question: Do horses suffer from the same problem. (enter 'Ilio Tibial Band SynDrOme' on Google for more info) Regards Alan
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 8, 2005 - 7:31 am:
We are unaware of this as a disease in horses Alan but many cases of hind limb lameness go undiagnosed. There are important differences in the anatomy of the horse and human that make a similar disease unlikely in the horse the most important of which is that at rest there is a remarkable angle of the femorotibial joint.
DrO
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Member:
Lccsi
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 8, 2005 - 8:32 am:
Just to let you know the end result of the difficulty downhill.. My horse was an import from Holland as such we are guessing he did not see to much "down hill". Right after I posted this we switched Berle's field to one that had a moderatly steep hill on the side. Over the last few months he must have learned how to go "down hill" because he is able to Gallop with a vengence both up and down the hill and has not had problems with the hill out of the indoor anymore..
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Member:
Paardex
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 13, 2005 - 7:55 pm:
Lori,while we are living and breeding horses in Holland,we have occasionally sent horses to France to grow up. The one year old horses mostly reacted rather normal to the sloping French pastures, but the horses sent at 2,5 or 3 years old had often problems. I saw a2,5 year stallion slide on his side down the hill only to be stopped by a few bushes. Be patient Dutch horses are used to small and VERY even pastures and often to being stabled when young very much,which in my opinion often makes them a bit clumsy because they miss months of training themselves with their friends in how to stay upright in different circumstances .And most dressage horses are big which doesn't help either. If you would post the name of his father and mothers father perhaps I would be able to tell a bit more about his family background,which sometimes is helpful in diagnosing why horses do things.
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Member:
Lccsi
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 13, 2005 - 8:44 pm:
Hi.. He is by Damiro out of Euphasia (Armstrong). I will tell you that before he went out to the slope field he was erronously turned out in a small hilly paddock where we believe he went to roll and slide down the hill and popped his hips out. The Chiropracter had to put him back together.. He was 12 when I got him and I would say it took 3 months out in the sloping paddock to become proficient with the hills. Now he just loves to run up and down them (I need to close my eyes for that!!) Any info you have would be great..
Thanks
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Member:
Paardex
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Posted on Monday, Feb 14, 2005 - 11:43 am:
Both Damiro and Armstrong were sons of Ramiro, who was a big sweet German stallion from Raimond who is also the father of the mothers fatherof Armstrong which was Rigoletto. These were very reputable fathers of mostly showjumpers and the occasional dressage horse. Clumsy is with a combination like this very well possible but perhaps it would be better to say this kind of horse[assuming he is a bit like these familymembers]doesn't like to make mistakes and if fallen once and perhaps even hurting himself, taking his time in deciding how to prevent such a mistake wich would account for awkward behaviour.Both stallions are NOT well known for problems in lets say the hind end of the horse problems mostly with their front feet are more common though very unlikely in your horse[the inbred problems I mean] because they are x-ray visible in young horses mostly and with these problems they are virtually never exported to the US.According to his family he should be a big horse with a real good working attitude but not very handy on his own by nature and therefore perhaps schooled by a rider who took much control. If you want him [to oversimplify] to walk on his own feet without help it would take time for him to adjust and at 12 perhaps as long as 1 year to 18 months.Real big changes in way of living, riding and terrain. But these are only possibilities for you to consider, other problems ofcourse are possible. Greeting from Holland to your horse!
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Member:
Lccsi
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Posted on Monday, Feb 14, 2005 - 12:48 pm:
Hi Jos.. Thanks for the background. My horse is a big strong guy at 16.2 and I've had him about 10 months. He has a WONDERFUL temperment.. which is true to his breeding (as you described) and excellent work ethic.. He always tries even if I'm not clear.. He is schooled 3rd/4th level dressage and I ride him at about 1st/2nd.. He can jump 3'6" and is very honest to the fences..(but I don't jump him at all other than some cavelleti work.. I can see you are right about the time needed for him to adjust to his new environment as every passing day he seems to settle in more and more. It's nice to hear background about his family history. Thanks!!
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