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Discussion on Alopecia ?
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 11, 2004 - 8:58 pm:
Hello Dr.O and all,
I have a 15 year old quarter horse gelding who seems to have developed alopecia in the last 6 to 8 weeks. This is also the time that his winter coat is growing in thick. I don't blanket unless absolutely necessary nor do I house him indoors. He is kept in a paddock with a shelter and water supply at all times. His feed since April of this year has been Alfalfa cubes slowly introduced and summer pasture (COPD issues). His paddock mate since May or June is also on the same diet because of the same issues (COPD) is not displaying the same symptoms.
My gelding has sustained some "War Wounds" from some hormonally challenged horses in the past but these lesions are different in appearance and on spots not likely from bites.
The spots where he is losing hair is around the indentation just under the hipbone. There seems to be spots around his ribcage as well. I can locate a few areas of crust or scurf but they are not oozing or painful that I can tell.
I will be calling my vet tomorrow about this and have her come out to do a skin scraping and/or look see.
I am a little worried because of winter conditions and how to treat.
Hope you can help.
Susan B.
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 11, 2004 - 9:23 pm:
Worried Mom forgot to ask question.
Can Alfalfa cubes cause such a reaction or should I be asking another question?
Was dewormed 2 months ago with Eqvalan (Ivermectin) and the bugs have since died off or gone into hibernation with frosty nights.
Susan B.
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Member:
Kcovell
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Posted on Friday, Nov 12, 2004 - 4:41 am:
Susan
Several years ago my quarter horse mare developed alopecia. It first started as a small place (about the size of the tip of your finger) that I assumed was something she had done in the pasture.
A couple of weeks later I went out to brush her and she had a spot (in the same place) about the size of a small dinner plate where the hair was missing and the skin was white (she also had some smaller areas on another part of her body). I took her to my vet at the time and he took some skin samples to send to LSU and gave her a shot of something (it was so long ago I don't remember what).
He called me a few days later and had talked to a dermatologist at LSU (the skin samples were normal) who told him it sounded like alopecia.
He sent me some information he had gotten out of a vet. medical book on alopecia.
Basically there is nothing that can be done for it it's like baldness in men, but is supposed to be rare in horses.
The hair grew back, but a few months later it happened again. This time I took her to the dermatoligist my vet had spoken to at LSU. She took some more skin samples, but the diagonsis was the same.
At no time did she have any sores in the areas of hair loss, just no hair and white skin. I don't think in alopecia there is any thing other than the hair loss and change in skin color.
The hair grew back and it happened several more times, but it's been about 6 years since it last happened.
Let me know what happens.
KC
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Nov 12, 2004 - 8:25 am:
Whoa guys, you are treating alopecia like it is a diagnosis: it is not. It is a symptom, hair loss" and caused by many conditions and each has a different treatment and prognosis. Crusts that then come out with the hair and most likely dermatophillus, see Equine Diseases » Skin Diseases » Rain Rot and Rain Scald: Dermatophillus. I don't think this has anything to do with your diet.
DrO
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Friday, Nov 12, 2004 - 9:38 am:
Thanks Dr,O
I have been going through your articles and it is possible Rain Rot fits the description. My vet had a cancellation this morning and can come out to see. Whatever it is, the challenge will be in treating this as we are going into winter. Will post back with results and treatment. The weather here has been unusually wet this spring, summer and fall.
Susan B.
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Friday, Nov 12, 2004 - 3:37 pm:
New development in this skin horror. My vet was out this morning (God Bless Her) to have a look. It didn't look like anything that could be easily diagnosed so she had to take some skin biopsies. Looked like he had been shot with bullet holes after they were done. What was new this morning and wasn't present last night is that the spots where he is loosing hair are all caked and matted like he was oozing something. There are also these spots right on top of his withers where there has been no hair loss just wet and oozyish.
As I was describing this onset to Julie (Laser's other barn Mom) we decided to check some of the other horses that may be having this patchy hair fallout. This is something that now seems to be affecting most of the herd. The only new thing that they have all been exposed to is straw bedding for their shelters. My horse and his pal promptly ate all of theirs as they are both on cubed diets. Could it be something in the straw?
The only other thing I can think of at this moment is the weather we had 2 weeks ago which was wet and soupy. Couple of foggy mornings or days with no sunshine, just a mist on horses growing thick furry coats.
The skin and hair biopsy will not be ready for another week so we won't treat until we know what to treat. Is there anything else that would produce such symptoms besides skin diseases Dr.O?
Very worried Mom
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Member:
Kcovell
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Posted on Friday, Nov 12, 2004 - 7:19 pm:
Susan & DrO
Susan my vet did the same thing with some kind of instrument that looked like it punched holes in my horse. A stich was put in each one and I had to take them all out later. I thought I was going to be sick watching that, but they healed up fast.
I looked up my letters from the dermatologist at LSU and my horse was originally given Azium by the first vet.
The dermatologist at LSU states that she has "suspicions of alopecia areata or some other immune-mediated disease that is also potentially attacking the melanin and causing the skin to lose pigment."
Apparently what my horse had (what is was I'm still not sure) is different from yours.
Let me jump off of a tree limb, but 2 of my horses get what we call rain rot here in Louisiana and I found the perfect thing (for my horses). It's called Shipley's M T G.
A friend of mine swears it helps a horses tail grow, but it smells kind of bad so I haven't tried that yet.
However it does work wonders on my horses when they get what we call rain rot.
Susan I think after your vet gets back to you things will look much better then they do now.
KC
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 13, 2004 - 9:49 am:
Hi KC,
We still don't know WHAT we have either. Whatever IT is seems to be affecting some of the other horses as well. Something contagious or something in the bedding coupled with the Soupy weather conditions. It looked like something out of a Steven King novel.
I looked up the Shipleys MTG. It is actually Shapley's MTG. I have never heard of that stuff before. Available at www.shapleys.com for those that want to go have a look. It is interesting to note that they don't tell you what the active ingredients are that makes this product work.
Best I can do at the moment is sponge off some of these spots with warm clean water.
It is going to be a long week or two waiting for the results and then the challenge of treating it  .
Susan B.
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 13, 2004 - 5:34 pm:
Hi ,
I have used the shapleys MTG. Unfortunatly it did not work for my horses skin condition it actually made it worse. I can tell you it does have pine Tar in it. Each horse is different so I am glad it works for some horses.
Katrina
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 14, 2004 - 8:19 am:
Hello Susan,
I don't think this is likely to be the straw unless the horses are itching. The article is pretty specific on the diagnostic characteristics of dermatophillus, does this accurately describe what you are seeing?
DrO
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 14, 2004 - 12:33 pm:
Hi Dr.O,
The horses don't appear to be itching or scratching, so that could be a relief to the barn owner.
This condition has been a slow onset that I can recollect. I think it even started before the soupy weather hit. All of the horses have been growing these lovely winter coats prior to the onset of bad weather.
The paddocks that they are kept in are mostly dirt. They were once grass, but what horse is going to leave grass around  . If it is Rain Rot and there are scabs laying around the environment, how does one go about cleaning this up? I would hate to have to go through all the trouble of bathing and treating only to have him reinfected.
No one shares their grooming brushes that I am aware of, nor do they share tack, saddles and blankets. I would like to think that their environment is fairly clean, but how do you go about sterilizing dirt? My horse does get a good bath in the late spring/early summer and then is hosed off periodically throughout the summer with just water. He is groomed on a regular basis and I don't use a lot of grooming conditioners or softeners. Good old fashioned brushing is what makes him shine.
I will try and post some photos later for everyone's consideration  .
Susan B.
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Monday, Nov 15, 2004 - 12:29 am:
Hello Dr.O and all,
Photo session did not go so great, but I managed to scrunch down one for the size limitation.
The top lesion is a recent burst open and ooze.
The lower lesion is from a skin biopsy taken 2 days ago.
This particular skin condition is located just below his left hip/pelvic bone.
A new question....How long does rain rot take to manifest itself?
Thanks and sorry about the graphics.
Susan B.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Nov 15, 2004 - 7:37 am:
The trick is to either dispose of the picked off scabs or when shampooing be sure they are exposed to antiseptic soap. There is not much you can do about the organism on the ground. Dermatophillus can either appear rapidly or slowoly over a long time.
DrO
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Monday, Nov 15, 2004 - 10:11 am:
Oh geez Susan, if it's not one thing it's another...I'm sure this is hard on you...I know under your care he will be cured of this soon!! Good Luck!!!
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Monday, Nov 15, 2004 - 12:33 pm:
The challenge will be in treating with a bath. My gelding does have quite a thick winter coat and there is no indoor wash rack with heat. I suppose I can have him hauled somewhere with that kind of facility. I could maybe spot treat for now until I get a diagnosis from the skin biopsy.
What I don't understand is how my gelding can come down with this but his paddock mate is showing no symptoms. How contagious is this besides the scabs? The other two horses that are showing symptoms are nowhere near Laser and his pal. The only thing that seems to have escalated this problem was the very wet weather and thick winter coats. These horses all have run in shelters so they can get out of the rain/snow/fog.
Hi Aileen, I sure hope so. It seems there are a few more than usual cases of skin conditions showing up this fall according to my vet. I will probably be going back to stable management 101. I hope others will be doing the same.
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 17, 2004 - 12:08 pm:
Still waiting for biopsy results to come back, but I would like to add a new note about his symptoms.
The patchy hair loss and oozing lesions are symetrical on his body. One on either side of him at the top his withers and one on either side just under his hipbones.
Does this sound like rainrot? My vet doesn't think so at the moment.
If this is a systemic allergic reaction, what could possibly be the culprit?
Thanks Dr.O and all
Susan B.
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Member:
Kcovell
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 17, 2004 - 5:38 pm:
Susan
Two of my horses get rain rot in different spots all over their body (back, butt, etc)and I've had to give baths in the middle of winter (no snow here of course).
My other two horses only get it on their legs.
I know you'll feel alot better when the biopsy results come back, which hopefully will be soon.
KC
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 17, 2004 - 7:03 pm:
No, patchy rainrot is usually not bilaterally symmetrical.
DrO
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Friday, Nov 19, 2004 - 12:31 am:
KC,
There is nothing that I would love better than to give my gelding a bath and wash away all that troubles him. The challenge will be in getting him to an indoor facility where we can wash and thoroughly dry before returning him outdoors. His winter hair coat is about 2 inches long and probably still growing or thickening. Winter weather where I live can get very cold and conditions have been known to change within hours  .
At the moment I cannot treat until I know what to treat. I can only keep the sores clean and be on the lookout for any other new developments.
I hope the biopsy comes back soon so I can get on with what needs to be done.
Susan B.
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Friday, Nov 19, 2004 - 12:41 am:
Dr.O,
Would the bilaterally symetrical lesions be indicative of an allergy? Could it be diet related or something he ingested?
Thanks
Susan B.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Nov 19, 2004 - 7:02 am:
Allergies do not cause lesions like you see in the photo Susan, allergies cause skin lesions by causing itchiness and the itching causes the lesions. Dietary deficiencies and poisons do not tend to cause focal lesions but generalized problems. The photo above appears to be an infection, trauma, or rarely an autoimmune disease.
DrO
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 23, 2004 - 2:24 pm:
Hello Dr.O and all,
The skin biopsy came back and this is the diagnosis: Necrotizing Neutrophillic Dermatosis
My vet described this as being a very rare condition in horses. It has been seen but not often. The cause is unknown at this point. We had a discussion about what my horse may have ingested to bring this on or any other topical treatments that have been used. Nothing out of the ordinary comes to mind.
He is wormed and vaccinated regularly
He is groomed regularly
He is bathed with horse shampoo and conditioner once or twice a year.
His feet are attended to on a regular basis
This is not a neglected horse
The closest description I can come to is some sort of autoimmune response. My vet saw my horse at probably the most acute stage with the lesions illustrated in the photo above.
The treatment protocol for the moment is to apply Hibitane Cream to the open sores and to administer 40mls of Raw Linseed Oil orally.
If things get worse or don't seem to be regressing, then steroids may be the answer.
We have not done any blood analysis yet. Should I ask for this, and if so, what do you look for?
I am feeling a little out of sorts with this diagnosis and what the treatment and prognosis will be .
I am hoping you can offer more information or where to start looking Dr.O and thank you in advance.
Susan B.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 24, 2004 - 9:01 am:
Hello Susan,
Sorry to hear you have an interesting case. I cannot find any report of such a disease in horses though there are several such synDrOmes that are reported in humans. There are some necrotizing neutrophillic vascualitis's reported in horses that exhibit as a ulcerative skin disease. In humans dapsone has been proposed as a first line therapy. Not only does it have antiinfective properties, it has unique anti-inflammatory properties that make it partiuclarly suited for neutrophilic diseases. Unfortunately the drug is almost unknown in equine medicine but has been used in a foal this past year:
Use of dapsone in the treatment of Pneumocystis carinii pneumonia in a foal.
J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2004 Feb 1;224(3):407-10, 371.
Clark-Price SC, Cox JH, Bartoe JT, Davis EG.
Department of Clinical Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine, Kansas State University, Manhattan, KS 66506-5606, USA.
A 6-month-old male Quarter Horse was evaluated for chronic respiratory tract disease. Diagnostic investigations revealed pulmonary inflammation; Pneumocystis carinii was detected within macrophages. Lymphocyte subpopulation phenotyping and immunoglobulin concentration analysis were performed and results suggested immune suppression. Trimethoprim-sulfamethoxazole administration was initiated; the colt was discharged but was reexamined 8 days later because of profuse diarrhea and endotoxemia. Bacterial culture of feces recovered Salmonella spp resistant to trimethoprim-sulfamethoxazole, and a diagnosis of antimicrobial-associated colitis was made. Bilateral fibrinous hypopyon developed and was treated with topical medication and intracameral injections of human recombinant tissue plasminogen activator. Dapsone (3 mg/kg [1.4 mg/lb], PO, q 24 h; dose extrapolated from human data) was administered for treatment of P carinii pneumonia (56-day treatment period). The colt recovered from the pneumonia and diarrhea. Dapsone may be a useful adjunct to traditional treatment for P carinii pneumonia in horses or as a sole medication for horses that cannot tolerate other treatments.
Would it be possible to post the complete biopsy report here and do you have any recent photos?
DrO
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 24, 2004 - 9:35 am:
I am going to the office today to pay the bill. I will see about the written report from the dermatologist.
The HIBITANE OINTMENT for those that don't know is an Antibacterial/Antifungal. Active Ingredient: Chlorehexidine acetate B.P...1% w/w
At least for now I don't have to give a full bath but I am still careful in grooming as I don't want to further irritate his skin. He does not appear to be itchy, but I think the sores are a little sensitive.
I will try and get more photos today or tomorrow.
With your permission, I would like to print out the report on DAPSONE and give it to my vet for her consideration.
Thank you as always Dr.O and will post back with updates.
Susan B.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 25, 2004 - 9:27 am:
Check out the medication / antibacterial section for more on chlorhexidine. Of course you have permission to print it and discuss it with the vet. The only question in my mind is if this is a autoimmune condition would the dapasone be prefereable over steroids.
DrO
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 25, 2004 - 1:01 pm:
I have a copy of the biopsy report. I have edited out names and numbers, but have typed this word for word. Photos to follow later.
I would like to comment about what vaccines and drugs he had prior to this incident.
August 26: (Dewormed with Ivermectin) and given 2 vials of Map5 I.V.
October 12: Teeth power floated plus sedation, trailer ride 1/2hour each way without incident.
Intranasal flu vaccine also given
October 26: Map5 I.V. injection 2 vials given
No stressful incidents or injuries that I can recall unless there was some alien visitation in the night leaving crop circles.
I have had discussions about the Map5 before in another section of this forum.
The only other thing I can think of in terms of something being ingested is a Lick-It ball. This is a device for horses to lick on instead of eating the fence posts. My horse and his pal tend to consume one of these in a day. He has been on a cubed alfalfa diet since April plus pasture grasses and such.
Thanks for looking at this Dr.O.
Susan B.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Nov 26, 2004 - 9:59 am:
I don't think any of these likely causes. The report sounds a bit like the descriptions of necrotizing neutrophillic vascualitis which is most often secondary to bacterial infection. Eosinophils are more common with allergic reactions. The lack of finding pathogens is perplexing unless treatment had begun before biopsy. Also the bilateral symmetry argues against primary infection. Since the pathologist thinks this thing is passing I would likely start with simple topical corticosteroid/antimicbial therapy like Panalog before considering any systemic therapy.
DrO
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 27, 2004 - 6:20 pm:
Thanks Dr.O,
I have some technical problems in posting pictures, hope to get sorted out soon.
There was no treatment given to my horse that I am aware of prior to the skin biopsy, systemically or topically. The only thing that I can think of is his care giver put a rain sheet on him for a day or two prior to the outbreak of lesions.This is his own rainsheet and is not shared with other horses that I am aware of. He may have worn this for 2 days at the most when the weather was at its worst and this was the middle to end of October. The photos, when I can get them uploaded almost looks suggestive of blanket irritant, because of the bilateral symmetry. I have heard of a similar reaction to neoprene boots from a very close source.
My vet is suggesting that this may be something related to the Endocrinology Department or something internal. Would it be prudent to have blood work pulled now or when this thing goes active again. He does seem to be in remmission at the moment although I might not see evidence of new hair growth for about a month.
Thanks Dr.O.
Susan B.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 28, 2004 - 8:46 am:
You mean the areas effected correspond to the pressure points of the blanket? That is interesting and I certainly would not put it back on until healed.
I cannot really think of a hormonal issue other than Cushings predisposing to infection. Liver disease can cause skin problems. Yes a good lab work up is useful in inexplained health problems to help rule out such issues.
DrO
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 28, 2004 - 11:54 am:
Thanks Dr.O,
Will call the vet tommorrow about a good lab workup.
Trying to upload picture again.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Nov 29, 2004 - 7:57 am:
Good Morning Susan,
If the lesions are resolving and there are no other symptoms of disease I would wait to see if it reocurrs before spending the money.
DrO
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Monday, Nov 29, 2004 - 12:06 pm:
Top of the morning to you also Dr.O  .
As of yesterday, Laser did look much better. The above photos were taken on Thursday of last week.
Two other horses in this gang had some similar stuff going on.
One grey arab mare that has a tinier version of what Laser has and 1/4 horse, paint draft cross has tiny little scabs on both sides of his rump.
All they had in common was intranasal flu vaccine and straw bedding in their shelters. These three horses of which one is mine do not reside together in the same paddock, nor do they have access over a fence or watering system.
I suppose any other symptoms that he has that could be related to endocrine disorders is a voracious appetite and he is sensitive to having his front feet shod. We do keep him on the thin side, although he does look bigger in photos with his fur coat on. Maybe sensitive to vaccines and eating hay can make him cough.
My vet knows all of his ailments as she sees him on a regular basis.
We will give this a month to resolve and if it gets worse or some other symptom comes along, I will get blood work done.
I will keep everyone updated on this condition. I really appreciate this site for all the sharing of symptoms and information. It has helped tremendously getting through all of the scary ordeals.
Thanks Dr.O
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 7, 2004 - 1:42 pm:
An update:
As of Saturday there were new areas of alopecia on my gelding. It seems that things are the worst on his left side. The area where this new development is on his forearm. It is about 2½ inches across. His fur or lack of it did look wet around the edges. It almost seems like this guy is breaking out in blisters and his hair is falling out. On the other side in the same place is a little bump that feels scabby and may be brewing the same thing.
I have not put a blanket on since this thing came about, but he has been brushed with clean brushes. I hope I am not spreading this around by doing so.
My vet is off at the American Association of Equine Practioners right now and I can't have her come out to do blood work. Given all the info I have provided does this sound like an emergency situation?
Thanks.
Worried Mom
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 7, 2004 - 7:20 pm:
Well Susan, I never like to leave things that are getting worse. Though currently this is not life threatening, what if the rate of worsening speeds up? Does the veterinarian have someone to take his calls? On the other hand your vet should be back home by Fri, as Wed is the last day for presentations.
DrO
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 9, 2004 - 3:30 pm:
My vet is coming out Monday to pull blood for a workup. Given the inconclusive diagnosis from the skin biopsies, is there anything I should ask for specifically? Certain testing may require a period of fasting or someother withdrawal of substances. Right now he is on alfalfa cubes and water plus his Farrier's Formula. He did have a 3 day course of Bute when the Farrier came out 2gms, 1gm and 1gm respectively. The new lesions happened about 5 days later....hmmm.
Will try and get some pics of these new crop circles to post.
Thanks,
Susan B.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Dec 10, 2004 - 6:55 am:
Rereading all your posts Susan, particulalry that several other horses are effected by something similar, the moist edges and scabbiness, it again sounds like you could be dealing with rainrot or some other less common infection. The biopsy would be consistant with a resolving bacterial infection.
A standard CBD and blood panel which checks out the liver, kidney, and electrolyte status would be a good start. Repeat biopsy of new and untreated lesions would also be warranted.
DrO
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Monday, Dec 13, 2004 - 8:11 am:
Thanks Dr.O,
My vet is out this morning and we will revisit all of the symptoms. Two new pictures to post of the new lesions. These are located on his forearms. Again, bilateraly symetrical and the left side being the worst .
Left side forearm:
Right side forearm:
Will post back with any new findings.
Susan B.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Monday, Dec 13, 2004 - 3:44 pm:
Poor Laser, but at least he's got a great mom who's determined to figure this out!!
Hang in there Susan.
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 14, 2004 - 12:26 am:
Thanks Aileen .
We are hanging by loose hairs and threads . My vet should be able to tell me something in a day or two as she pulled blood for a lab workup. We went over again all the things that he has had in terms of spring and fall vaccines, his diet and supplements and any traumatic experiences or illnesses. Nothing out of the ordinary comes to mind. He is actually quite relaxed and calm when the vet comes to visit.
I am hoping that all blood work comes back normal and we can chalk up this weird skin thing to the unusual weather we have had. My vet did say that she has had more than her share of skin conditions this fall.
All in all his hair coat is very healthy and shiny with the exception of the crusties and hair loss. No indication of rubbing or scratching that we can see. It is a mystery....
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 14, 2004 - 6:47 am:
Susan, what is the white powdery stuff in the pictures?
DrO
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 14, 2004 - 8:00 am:
That is a good question Dr.O and I do remember you making reference to this scurf that is difficult to brush out. Darned if I can find it though. I will assume it is flaking skin from the little crust underneath.
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 14, 2004 - 2:27 pm:
Hello Dr.O and all,
All blood work has come back normal, just as I suspected. My horse's behaviour has not changed in any way with this, he is his usual gobble up everything in sight self. We still don't know what caused this in the first place and suspect there might be an allergen involved. What the allergen is who knows. I will keep treating the lesions with Hibitane and give orally the raw linseed oil as my vet instructed. She did give me a script for Panalog creme and I can use that when the Hibitane is gone or apply it to a new lesion. She did say that these things can take some time to resolve and to let her know if things start getting really bad . My vet was very certain that we weren't dealing with rain rot or ring worm based on the initial skin biopsies. I will see if I can get a copy of the blood work.
Susan B.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 15, 2004 - 6:35 am:
Thank you for keeping us appraised Susan. OK let's assume this is an allergic or autoimmune reaction: the daily cleaning is logical but why do you not use medication (in this case the topical steroid in the panalog) that is likely to counteract the reaction more diligently? Panalog does come in a large more economical bottle or you could even try the cheaper over the counter topical steroids. The steroid in the Panalog however is more potent and it also contains antimicrobials.
DrO
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 15, 2004 - 10:00 am:
In checking my prescription, I have two 7.5gm tubes of PANOLOG CREAM. Is this different from PANALOG?; (note the spelling). The ingredients taken from the product insert is:
Each gram of PANOLOG CREAM and each ml of PANOLOG OINTMENT contains:
Nystatin.................100,000 units
Neomycin Base (as Neomycin Sulfate)......2.5mg
Thiostrepton............. 2,500 units
Triamcinolone Acetonide.. 1.0mg
Panolog Cream is available in 7.5 and 15g tubes
Panolog Ointment is available in 15ml tube, each with an elongated tip for easy application, and in dispensing package of 100ml.
The cost to me was $8.50 Canadian plus tax for a 7.5gm tube. If I were to treat all of the lesions, I could be going through a tube every day. My vet did say to use this very sparingly and she will buy back any unopened, unused tubes.
Sorry about getting a little off topic here, but I wanted to clarify on the PANALOG/Panolog® discrepancy  . I am not sure if I can get a generic like this over the counter, but will check. I still might need a prescription.
Thank you for bearing with me on this long post and will keep everyone updated. Hopefully we can figure out what brought this on in the first place.
Susan B.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 16, 2004 - 6:25 am:
The only difference is that you have spelled it correctly.
DrO
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 30, 2004 - 1:41 pm:
Hello Dr.O and all,
I am happy to report that my geldings fur is growing back in the bald spots. I would guess to say it is about ¼ to ½ inch in length. He may never grow the winter hairs in those spots this year but you never know.
My vet did run a complete blood panel on him checking out kidney, liver etc. and all came back normal. We may never know what caused this in the first place. I will make note of each substance that he is given whether it is vaccines, dewormers, Hyaluronate injections (Map 5) or whatever he does not get on a daily basis and see what happens. He has never been ill or itchy that I can think of or seen that may have brought this on. He was treated for heaves in April with descending doses of dexamethasone and Ventipulmin oral. He was weaned off the hay and has been eating good quality alfalfa cubes since. I found a local source of generic "Panolog" called "Animax". It comes in horse size containers. It is more expensive than the "Hibitane" but whatever works that will be the thing.
He received his shot of Map 5 this morning so we will see what happens with that. I am hoping nothing skin wise as it is helping him move around better. He is on no other medication otherwise. If I ever find out what the trigger of this might be I will post back.
I really appreciate this board for the live interaction with a vet (Dr.O) and all the members who have something similar going on.
Happy New Year! 
Susan B.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 1, 2005 - 8:08 am:
That's great Susan. Let us know if anything changes.
DrO
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 26, 2005 - 8:09 pm:
Hello Dr.O and all,
Just an update on my buddy. His fur is growing back in the bald spots and he still has some crusties around the edges of the hair loss area. I can spot treat these with a bit of spray on Betadine.
He wore a very clean blanket for a couple of days when it got really cold but that was it.
His diet is alfalfa cubes because of hay sensitivities.
The new development is the barn owners mare; who has two bilateral spots of hair loss on her point of hips. The size is about 6 inches across. Just fell out. Looks identical to what my gelding had in the fall.
I am starting to entertain the idea of chronic selenium poisoning. Whether this is from the hay that is being fed and harvested from a local area, or from the grass and pasture that grows on the ground itself. We have had some DrOught years in the past.
If this is a good hunch to follow, how does one go about testing for this via bloodwork?
Thanks Dr.O and all
Susan B.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 27, 2005 - 5:12 pm:
Wow Susan, your boy is ok though, right?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 27, 2005 - 9:50 pm:
Susan, my thoughts are that the lesions in your descriptions, though symmetrical are a bit focal or at least confined to the skin. Horses with selenium imbalances (either way) are generally sickly looking with overall poor coats and kind of stiff, maybe a little depressed as it advances. Your horses do not seem systemically ill. For testing see Equine Diseases » Respiratory System » Selenium Toxicosis.
DrO
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Monday, Feb 28, 2005 - 1:32 am:
Thanks Dr.O
Nobody seems to be sickly looking. I have read your article on selenium toxicosis and it doesn't quite fit the picture. The hair loss would be more confined to the mane and tail.
It is still a mystery as to what the cause is. My horse and this mare are on different diets. No one seems to be itching with this condition.
Odd that two horses have this unexplained hair loss .
Is there some other substance that would cause this? Something in the drinking water maybe?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Feb 28, 2005 - 7:43 am:
I hate to say it after all you have been through but as I review the case above Dermatophillus still seems on the top of the list and is contagious.
DrO
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Monday, Feb 28, 2005 - 10:09 am:
Yup . That about sums it up...funny that the initial skin biopsy came back negative for that.
I will tell the owner where she can get the Panolog without the script.
Patiently waiting for spring .
Thanks Dr.O for all of your advice.
Susan B.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 1, 2005 - 7:29 am:
Heck, I would start with cheap old betadine or chlorhexidine and the recommendations in the article on rainnot.
DrO
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Friday, Jun 24, 2005 - 11:11 pm:
Hello Dr.O and all,
Moving my discussion from the Medications and Dewormers back to here as this seems to be the problem. See thread https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/5/42164.html
Will do a link at the other end so as not to leave this open ended and unanswered.
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 26, 2005 - 3:24 pm:
Hello Dr.O and all,
It seems we are having a new round of crop circles. I am quite sure he is not rubbing on something to cause this hair loss. You can pull the hairs out quite readily and there is no scabbing. The biggest patch which is shown in the picture under his mane is usually where he gets a patchy sweat. I have had this biopsied but still waiting for results. Vet doesn't seem to think this is rain rot or ringworm .
Any ideas ?
Thanks,
Susan B.
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Member:
Tangoh
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Posted on Monday, Jun 27, 2005 - 10:58 am:
Hi Susan,
This looks very much like what most of our horses look like when they're out on pasture...one or more always have war wounds either from horse biting or rubbing on fence posts or trees. Is it possible these marks are caused simply from rubbing on trees, etc.
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 28, 2005 - 3:30 pm:
Hi Sherri,
I am not sure what to make of this. The pasture has no trees, but the fencing is all the same. Some sort of undressed logs or branches from large trees. The peculiar thing is that you can readily pull hairs out of this area. I do not see him rubbing and scratching.
I have seen war wounds and rub marks from blankets, but my boy is not wearing a blanket or sheet and the area where this is wouldn't apply to a blanket.
Sticking his head way under the fence to get at grass perhaps?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 29, 2005 - 5:58 am:
Susan, when I wrote before I had forgotten about the past history and thanks for moving it back to here. At this point the thing to do is wait for the biopsy to come back to see if you have the same condition: is it bilateral as before? I would be treating as you did for the prior incidence.
DrO
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 29, 2005 - 11:46 am:
Thanks Dr.O.
It is not bilateral as before. I won't have any biopsy results until next week. This hair loss also seems to be on spots around the base of his ears. It seems to correlate to where his mane is or used to be. It has been pulled and shortened.
Vet did say I can do a dilute solution of Betadine rinse.
I have not noticed this thing getting any worse, but I will post back biopsy results when they become available.
I have not put a blanket or sheet of any kind on this guy since our first incident.
Susan B.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 30, 2005 - 7:00 am:
Since this is the skin, why not full strength and why not chlorhexidine that is much slower to evaporate compared to the Betadine?
DrO
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 12, 2005 - 3:02 pm:
Hello Dr.O,
I have a report on the skin biopsy, which shows nothing.
It is interesting to note that this hair loss on his neck coincides with patchy sweating. The hair is growing back in.
Susan B.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 13, 2005 - 9:34 am:
No Susan your conclusion on the biopsy is incorrect, the biopsy show exactly what is there: normal skin and hair follicles in the resting phase (telogen) which would be normal for this time of year: these hairs were rubbed or scraped off it would appear by the biopsy. I guess it would be possible to suppose premature loss of the hair shaft (telogen effluvium) but the pattern looks more like that from rubbing.
DrO
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Member:
Bucky
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Posted on Friday, Nov 18, 2005 - 6:37 pm:
As this seems to remain an unsolved mystery I wanted to add a question here. Could this be a late response to a vaccine? My horse has had a history funny skin reactions in the fall (Equine Diseases » Skin Diseases » Bumps / Nodules / Warts / Tumors » Hives, Wheals, and Urticaria in Horses »Discussion on Hives that ooze ) and recently I heard that it could be a late reaction to spring vaccinations...even 6 mos later. I haven't been able to talk to my vet, Dr 0?
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 19, 2005 - 1:34 am:
Hello Mandy,
I did ask that question (about the vaccines) to my vet and the answer was no.
Spring vaccines would consist of Rabies, Tetanus and Mosquitoe born viruses; EEE,WEE and WNV.
The only thing I can chalk this up to is the WEATHER. Horses grow in these nice winter coats and then it RAINS when it should be colder and snowing. Normally, where I live, it is a dry cold. The last two winters have been humid. Go figure.
My vet did say that skin conditions were at the all time high last fall/winter. It has been unusually wet here. Spring and Summer pastures were in abundance.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 19, 2005 - 10:23 am:
I agree with your vet Susan, while hives can result within hours or maybe a day later, no way 6 months later at least not as a simple reaction.
DrO
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 20, 2005 - 10:19 pm:
Thanks so much Dr.O  .
We have come full circle (1 year), since the onset of this skin condition. To date, I have not seen a repeat of last fall. The weather where I live has not really been typical or normal ( a lot wetter than usual). I do realise that the organism or bacteria that causes rain rot can remain dormant in the soil for a long time and perhaps the weather has just brought this out.
I still give him his "Wormers" and his vaccines and watch for any adverse reactions. So far so good, but the weather has been dealing out some wild cards . This weekend for example has been glorious. 12 degrees above freezing today and the sun is shining. Laser looked a little sweaty/oily under that winter coat.
Susan B.
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