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  Discussion on Runny nose - no other symptoms
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Member:
Dwinans

Posted on Thursday, Nov 18, 2004 - 3:13 pm:

Hello,

My T-bred gelding came down with a runny nose with no other symptoms (no fever or cough, eating normally). After 2 weeks of runny nose the vet came out and looked at him and said that he thought it was allergies and gave him antihistamines. He also said that if it persisted then he might have to drain the glands in his throat.

I just read that Dr O said that allergies don't normally cause runny noses.

3 days ago his nose started bleeding very slightly during exercise. I thought this might be because of the antihistamines drying up his nasal passages but the last 2 days he has not been given his medication.

I have left a message with my vet but I was wondering if anybody has had any experience with a runny nose with no other symptoms? Has anybody had experience with draining glands?

Thanks,
Dawn
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Nov 19, 2004 - 6:57 am:

Dawn, did your horse run from one or both nostrils and what was the character of the discharge? How about the blood: one or both nostrils?
DrO
Member:
Dwinans

Posted on Friday, Nov 19, 2004 - 12:04 pm:

Dr O,

Thanks for your response.

It is primarily out of 1 nostril - it is creamy colored and when he is active it streams out (not just drips) - although it doesn't stream every time he exercises. The blood is a very small amount out of the 1 nostril.

I spoke to my vet last night and he said that he wants to scope him and see if his gluttoral pouches need to be drained. He is coming on Monday. When I mentioned that there was some blood my vet was a little perplexed as to why that would be.

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention one other symptom - he has slightly swollen glands in his throat.

Am I ok to continue riding him or should I be giving him time off until we figure out what this is?

Thanks for your help,
Dawn
Member:
Dwinans

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 23, 2004 - 5:40 pm:

Hi all,

Just a quick update - the vet came and scoped Remy - it was very interesting seeing the inside of his throat. Everything looks fine in there. He took radiographs of his head today. In the meantime we have started him on antibiotics.

I made a mistake about what the vet gave me on his first visit - I thought it was antihistamines but it was actually antibiotics.

I am waiting to get the results of the xrays this afternoon.

Thanks,
Dawn
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 24, 2004 - 7:35 am:

Hello Dawn,
Guttaral pouch, sinus and/or tooth root infection are your rule outs. The bleeding is because the infection is destroying the mucous membrane. I am not sure why things should look fine: where is the puss coming from or has it responeded to the antibiotics?
DrO
Member:
Dwinans

Posted on Thursday, Dec 16, 2004 - 2:25 pm:

Hello Dr O,

I have definitely learned something in the past few weeks. Remy had been on the Tucoprim for several weeks and still after moderately hard exercise his 1 nostril still bled. So my vet decided to send the xrays to the university. The specialist there said that definitely there is a pocket of infection in his sinus. So then my vet put him on Metronidazole. His symptoms have improved dramatically.

My vet is coming out on Monday to do another xray to see how much it has improved.

I didn't realize you can see infection in radiographs. I trust my vet pretty much, but I am wondering how imperative it is to do the next xrays. I guess it's better to know if it has cleared up rather than just guess by the absence of symptoms.

He said that he will probably be on the Tucoprim and Metronidazole until mid January.

Good news that it's nothing serious.

Thanks for your input.

Dawn Winans
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Dec 17, 2004 - 6:28 am:

YOu cannot see "infection" per se on the radiograph but you can see fluid and when you put it together with purulent nasal dischage you assume th fluid you are seeing is more puss. Also infection can cause a destructuve/proliferative bony response that is visible radiographically. I am not sure about the indication of taking more radiographs not knowing exactly what he might want. It strikes me a set following cessation of treatment might be logical. Hope the metronidazole does it for you.
DrO
Member:
Dwinans

Posted on Friday, Jan 14, 2005 - 3:26 pm:

Hi Dr O,

I am still in the middle of fighting this infection. After a couple more sets of radiographs (one of them digital) it looks like although there is fluid in the left sinus (the side where the discharge is more prevalent) there seems to be three teeth affected on the right side. As there has been improvement using the antiobiotics we have decided to give it a few more weeks and see if it improves without surgery. My vet said that if it doesn't improve and he needs surgery he will try just amputating the roots as opposed to pulling all three teeth.

I'm a little concerned about the extended use of the Tucoprim (double dose) and the Metronidazole but we are just keeping an eye on him and so far he seems to be handling it ok.

Also, it seems a little peculiar that the discharge is most out of the side opposite the infected teeth. Have you seen this before?

Who would ever think that a snotty nose could be such a hassle?

Thanks!
Dawn
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Jan 14, 2005 - 9:39 pm:

No I have not seen nor can understand how this would drain from the oppisite side. I bet the problem is on the side he is draining from. How do you amputate the roots?
DrO
Member:
Paul303

Posted on Monday, Jan 17, 2005 - 12:40 am:

Wow! I'd love to know that too. In humans, they do apicoectomies, but it's really involved...and should the roots ( I'm assuming that the three teeth are molars )protrude into, or end anywhere in close proximity to the sinuses the complications could be very tricky to manage. I'd also expect that, as in humans, any remaining nerve tissue, if present, would have to be removed, the canal sterilized then filled with some non-reactive substance to seal the canal. Add to that the poor access that the mouth of the horse affords the practioner, and the difficult task of post-op care......WHEW!
Member:
Dwinans

Posted on Monday, Jan 17, 2005 - 10:38 am:

He said he would have to go in through the outside and cut the molars' roots off. I didn't ask for any more details right now because I'm really hoping that the antibiotic treatment is going to fix this. Plus I also think that the infection is on the side of the discharge. To top it off Remy came down with a quarter crack - this is year is starting off great!
Member:
Dwinans

Posted on Thursday, Feb 10, 2005 - 1:14 pm:

Well, after weeks of antibiotics we took more radiographs and the teeth are not getting worse but are not getting better either. The decision has been made to take him to the hospital to do a sinus flush. They will drill a hole in his face and sew in a catheter and flush it out with antibiotics for 5 days.

Fingers crossed that this works.

Has anybody had any experience with this?

Thanks,
Dawn
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Feb 11, 2005 - 8:13 am:

Pretty standard Dawn. The sinuses of the horse are so convuluted and deep they are not explorable with a endoscope.

I would not limit this to a small hole for flushing however. It needs too be big enough for exploration and possible culture and biopsy of the lesion. I guess you could wait to see if the flushing does not work then do a sinus flap...

Someone has asked for images of the sinuses. I will see if I can get them up in the next week.
DrO
Member:
Dwinans

Posted on Friday, Feb 11, 2005 - 12:42 pm:

Thanks Dr O.

The xrays do not show a lesion - just infection around the roots of 3 teeth. Does this constitute a lesion? They are planning on putting the antibiotic directly on the roots.

Thanks for your input.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Feb 12, 2005 - 8:46 am:

Are theses the teeth on the opposite side of the nasal discharge?
DrO
Member:
Dwinans

Posted on Monday, Feb 14, 2005 - 11:42 am:

No - although initially the vet thought it was on the opposite side it turns out that the teeth are on the same side as the discharge.
- Dawn
Member:
Dwinans

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 16, 2005 - 6:13 pm:

I guess this should be moved to the Dentristry section since it turns out that it is the teeth causing the problem.

Remy had his surgery on Monday morning and so far it is looking successful. The surgeon said that the skull was very easy to drill through - she said it was paper-thin which indicates that the infection had started to affect the bone (although the bone is not infected). They are flushing the teeth roots and placing the antibiotics directly on them once a day.

I am trying to figure out what caused the roots to be infected. I was reading the latest article on equine dentristry and it mentions that "power floating" might not be such a good thing. Last year I had a dentist float his teeth and he used power tools. Is there a possibility that this could have caused this problem?

Who knows how long this was brewing before the symptoms displayed. Also I don't understand why he didn't go off his feed or lose weight and there was no bad smell at all.

So now the question is whether just placing the antibiotics directly on the teeth roots will clear up the infection or if he will need a root canal. Also, if it is successful another question is is this just a temporary band-aid fix because there is something wrong with the teeth that caused the infection? Can you tell by looking at the teeth if something is wrong with them?

Of course, I will be asking this of the vet when I pick him up on Friday but I was hoping somebody had any input for me to think about.

Thanks.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Feb 17, 2005 - 8:36 am:

Wow that is quite a thought. Horses were having these problems commonly before power tools came along..hmmm. If a simple floating of points was all that was done, this is unlikely.

If large amounts of tooth were removed I think the power tool use should be on the list of possibilities. Did the effected tooth receive a lot of attention? Is there more than one tooth involved? The involvement of multiple teeth might be more supportive of being caused by a procedure that involved all those teeth.
DrO
Member:
Dwinans

Posted on Friday, Feb 25, 2005 - 4:03 pm:

Although I'm not positive how much tooth the dentist took off I have feeling it was a lot because he said they needed to be done badly. (Which I was a little surprised about because my vet had hand-floated his teeth only the year before.)

Anyway, there are at least 3 teeth affected (maybe as many as 6).

I believe I am never going to have a power-float done again, just in case this was the cause.

Thanks,
Dawn
Member:
Paul303

Posted on Sunday, Feb 27, 2005 - 3:30 am:

Hi Dawn, Hope Remy is doing well. I can't quite understand what they are doing. Did they remove the apex of the affected roots? Or did they expose the roots and flush and medicate them daily? Could they have already removed the nerves from the teeth and are sterilizing the canals and packing with antibiotics? Are there systemic antibiotics involved also right now? This is so very interesting....

Teeth get infected, or abcess, when the nerve tissue in the pulp chamber ( canal ) begins to die. The decaying tissue gives off gasses which causes immense pressure. As the infection progresses, the pocket of pressure seeks release along the path of least resistence. This means it might have fistulated ( created a drainage opening ) into Remy's sinus. Or, it could have come out along the gums right by the roots of the infected teeth. As long as it was draining, there would be no real pain. The pain starts up when the drainage gets blocked. Then, the pain builds from the pressure of the building gaseous purulent material. See, if you have an abcess on your skin, it will blow up, and the skin will stretch to accomodate the swelling. Abcesses of the teeth become unbearable ( worse than anywhere else ) when blocked, because the bone doesn't swell or "give" to the pressure.

If the nerve of the tooth is infected, that means it is dying. I don't think antibiotics alone will do the trick in that case. The tissue should have to be removed and the chamber filled and sealed. But if the infection is not in the roots of the teeth, then maybe medication alone will work.

The power float could have been involved. As Dr O's article discussed, the heat build-up can be wicked, especially if done at too high a speed, and without adequate H2O flushing. Another possibility, would be a blow or trauma to that side that could have taken place at any time in the horse's life. The complications can take years to rear their ugly heads. This is a good thing for PEOPLE to keep in mind also. Anyone with insurance that has an with injuries to the mouth should have their dentist write a statement advising that future complications are likely.
Member:
Dwinans

Posted on Monday, Feb 28, 2005 - 1:41 pm:

Thank you for your reply, Elizabeth.

So far, all they have done is put a catheter to the roots, flushed out the sinuses and placed the antibiotics directly on the roots for 5 days.

Today is his last day of oral antibiotics (10 days after the last day of flushing). He still has discharge from his nose although it is better than before. It's mostly clear but there is a little creamy discharge there also.

It's nice to know he is not in pain as it is draining.

I will know in a week or so if this flushing has worked. If not, I believe I will probably extract the most infected tooth and see if that works. Unfortunately, I have to take finances into consideration and am unable to do the root canal that I would like to do.

Fingers crossed that it is clearing up!

Thanks!
Dawn
Member:
9193

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 1, 2005 - 12:53 pm:

Hi Dawn,

I have been following your post with empathy and relative understanding for your concern for Remy. I posted a question shortly before yours regarding my horse's snotty nose discharge at the beginning of February. His discharge was on the same side of a broken tooth he sustained in October and I was concerned there may have been a connection.

My vet laid out all the possible scenarios, including sinus flushing if antibiotics did not clear up the problem. A thorough mouth exam under sedation by a dental specialist and my vet did not reveal any tooth/root issues.

We just finished a twenty day course of SMZ/TMP 16 tabs twice a day and will now wait to see if his nose stays clear for the next 30 days. I am hoping that all he had was a horse size head cold, but I sure would like to know what triggered it in the first place.

I wanted to send you my most heartfelt wishes for Remy's recovery and I truely hope that this will resolve for you quickly and that Remy is restored to high health in short order.

Hugs,
Debra

PS: Dr O- I was the one wondering if there were any pictures in HA showing the sinuses of the horse.
Member:
9193

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 1, 2005 - 12:58 pm:

Hi Dawn,

I have been following your post with empathy and relative understanding for your concern for Remy. I posted a question shortly before yours regarding my horse's snotty nose discharge at the beginning of February. His discharge was on the same side of a broken tooth he sustained in October and I was concerned there may have been a connection.

My vet laid out all the possible scenarios, including sinus flushing if antibiotics did not clear up the problem. A thorough mouth exam under sedation by a dental specialist and my vet did not reveal any tooth/root issues.

We just finished a twenty day course of SMZ/TMP 16 tabs twice a day and will now wait to see if his nose stays clear for the next 30 days. I am hoping that all he had was a horse size head cold, but I sure would like to know what triggered it in the first place.

I wanted to send you my most heartfelt wishes for Remy's recovery and I truely hope that this will resolve for you quickly and that Remy is restored to high health in short order.

Hugs,
Debra

PS: Dr O- I was the one wondering if there were any pictures in HA showing the sinuses of the horse.
Member:
Dwinans

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 1, 2005 - 6:29 pm:

Debra,

Thank you for your kind words.

Remy's teeth don't show any problems when you look at them either - we had to take radiographs to determine that there was infection around the roots of the teeth.

I have done some research and have learned that a snotty nose should never be ignored. I'm glad that I caught it as quickly as I did. There have been cases where this infection is life threatening but that is when it has been left untreated for upwards of a year or so.

Right now I am imagining the worst case scenario: 6 teeth are infected and need to be extracted. I couldn't imagine a horse living without that many teeth - but the other option (root canal) will put me in the poor house.

I'm taking one day at a time and hopefully it will be clear in a few weeks.

Thanks,
Dawn
Member:
9193

Posted on Monday, Mar 7, 2005 - 2:03 am:

Hi Dawn,

Just curious to know how you and Remy are doing this week. Can you tell if there is any improvement with the antibiotics?

Debra
Member:
Dwinans

Posted on Monday, Mar 7, 2005 - 6:10 pm:

Hi Debra,

I'm cautiously optimistic that his infection is clearing up. The vet said to go ahead and stop giving the antibiotics because there is a chance that the symptoms are not a result of the infection (in other words, the infection could be cleared up but the symptoms could still be there). He has been on the antibiotics for over 3 months and there is a good chance that they have stopped working anyway.

Six days after the last day of his meds his nose is looking slightly better (at least it hasn't gone back to being gross like it was initially). I will know more in a week or so.

How is your horse's sinuses?

Thanks,
Dawn
Member:
9193

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 9, 2005 - 1:38 am:

HI Dawn,

I'll sure keep my fingers crossed for you and Remy!! When you say his nose is slightly better, does that mean he still has fluid draining from his nose everyday?

Has he been on stall rest all this time or have you been able to ride a bit?

Justin is doing fine. Thank you for asking.. Once we get past our 30 days on April Fools Day I will feel more comfortable that we have negotiated that speedbump in the road of life...

I hope you don't mind my inquiring now and again..I really hope that Remy gets well soon.

Take Care,
Debra
Member:
Dwinans

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 9, 2005 - 4:46 pm:

Hi Debra,

Yes, Remy has fluid draining all the time out of the left nostril. It is now a better consistency (it was more thick and creamy and now it is more water-like). The vet says that as long as it is clear then she is not worried about the infection.

My vet said I could ride him - in fact, it might be good for him to get rid of the stuff up there, because when he is active it comes out more.

Unfortunately, he has also come down with a quarter crack so I am unable to jump him or work him hard. For economic reasons I have moved him from the show barn to a friend's mini-farm which is quite a distance from me. So right now he is on stall rest during the week and I just walk him on the weekends.

On top of all this I believe he may have come down with viral warts on his nose. I need to do some research here on it when I get some time.

Thanks for your good wishes,
Dawn
Member:
Contilli

Posted on Thursday, Mar 10, 2005 - 3:15 pm:

I Dawn-

Wow, I just noticed that your first post about this was November 18th. Yeiks.

My mare came down with an abscessing molar and she was hospitalized for three days to remove it. The cost was 1712.50! And she lost her pregnancy (4 months pregnant) due to the stress, pain and surgery. My vet and hospital told me that antibiotics usually do not work on tooth abscesses.

I am so sorry to hear about all of your horses troubles. I hope all is well!
Denise
www.BryantFarm.com
Member:
9193

Posted on Monday, Mar 14, 2005 - 11:56 am:

Hi Dawn,

What a journey you are having with Remy! I am glad to hear that the nose drainage is clear. My vet also encouraged light riding and grazing to facilitate drainage. In fact, based on his description of how the sinus are placed in the head, I devised a couple of exercises to help get stuff going.

Justin would tolerate (and even seemed to enjoy) having reasonably hot towel packs laid across his face under and over his eyes. After 20 minutes or so of his "facial", I would take a carrot and standing on a booster step I would encourage him to lift his head up as high as he could from side to side. Then we would go for our stroll to walk and graze. I noticed a goodly amount of drainage after these twice daily exercises in the beginning.

I also put a big water bucket in his stall to encourage hydration to thin the fluids. He has an automatic waterer, but he loves to just put his head in a big bucket of water and just seems to drink more. I wish I could keep a big water bucket in his stall all the time, but our barn owner where I board will only let us keep buckets in the stalls if the horses are sick.

I hope Remy's quarter crack heals soon. It must be hard to not see him as often as you would like. I don't know anything about viral warts either..

Thank you for the update.. BTW how old is Remy? I will keep checking for updates.. I am looking forward to the post that tells us all that Remy is head clear and striding sound!

Denise- Sounds like you had quite a time with your mare.. I hope she is recovering from her abcess and pregnancy ordeal... Best wishes to both of you.

To Dr O- Thank you for the sinus visuals. They really helped me understand that the sinuses are a bit off-set to each other as opposed to a straight line like I had originally thought they were. Now I understand better why there was fluid drainage after the head turning exercises.

Smiles,
Debra
Member:
Dwinans

Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 5:39 pm:

Hi everybody!

I just wanted to give you quick update on Remy. He seems to be slowly but steadily improving. Although his nose is not completely dry the discharge seems to be decreasing. It is still clear.

Remy is now in a large turnout with 2 other horses so he walks around a lot. He also has big water troughs that he absolutely loves to play in. I really think a lot of the improvement came when he went from the auto waterers to the troughs.

Debra, thanks for your good wishes. Remy just turned 9. His quarter cracks have grown out enough so that I can ride him lightly and I think that has helped clear out his nose.

My vet said that this discharge could be residual and it could take a few months to clear up. Fingers crossed that it continues to improve!

Thanks everybody!
Dawn
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 8:16 am:

Glad to hear it Dawn, in further word on the how the teeth are doing?
DrO
Member:
Dwinans

Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 2:22 pm:

Dr O,

I have not had radiographs done after the flushing. I thought that I would wait until or if the symptoms worsened before I continued with further tests. My vet seemed to think that as long as the symptoms were clearing up that it indicated that the infection in the teeth roots was not progressing. Do you concur?

Thanks,
Dawn
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, May 14, 2005 - 12:45 pm:

If he is off all antibiotics and improving yes. If still on antibiotics, they may be suppressing infection that will reocurr when discontinued. Waitning and seeing seems reasonable.
DrO
Member:
9193

Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 1:56 am:

Hi Dawn,

So good to read that Remy is doing so well! What a relief for the two of you. His turnout situation sounds wonderful and theraputic.

So glad to hear that riding is happening for you too. Justin sustained a pretty good check ligament injury in February, but we didn't get it diagnosed till the middle of April. If all goes well with his rehab, we should be able to start walking under saddle in July (sigh) But he is enjoying all the attention and seems to enjoy the daily walks..

We are changing his name from "Just in Time" to "Just Be Patient"!

Thanks so much for sharing the update!

Smiles,
Debra
Member:
Dwinans

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 7, 2005 - 4:37 pm:

Hi all,

It has been 8 months since the symptoms of Remy's tooth infection displayed and I can now confidently say that I believe it is cleared up.

I can't believe it's taken this long! It took 4 months after the sinus flushing (and cessation of antibiotics) for the discharge to completely dry up. There is still a very small trickle but it is insignificant.

There may be a chance that the infection could return but at this time it looks like we've got it beat!

Thanks for the input you have given me over these months.

Dawn
Member:
Paul303

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 8, 2005 - 3:22 am:

Dawn: So very kind of you to let us know! Most things involving the mouth tend to heal quickly and well, with treatment. Unfortunately, when hard tissue ( bone, teeth ) are involved, the healing process is very slow, but it usually proceeds just fine. Best wishes for a full recovery and that all future disasters are very few, and very minor!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 8, 2005 - 8:05 am:

Great to hear Dawn!
DrO
Member:
9193

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 8, 2005 - 3:55 pm:

YEESSSSS!!

So glad you wrote to give an update.. I've been wondering how you and Remy were doing. Are you going to keep him in the same turnout situation or bring him closer to you?

Have a terrific summer riding your boy and I too hope that any health problems with Remy are far behind and nonexistent in the future..

Smiles,
Debra
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