|
|
Discussion on Back sagging
|
| Author |
Message |
Member:
Pfdusty
|
Posted on Friday, Nov 26, 2004 - 10:23 pm:
My appy is going to be 16 yrs old in February 2005. Over the last 1-2 years I have noticed that his back keeps sagging and the spine is sticking up. It extends all the way to the tail and I hate to say this but he starts to look like a dairy cow. He feels well, acts normal and doesn't seem to be in pain.
He has not been ridden very much during the past 3 years but is in the pasture at least 12 hrs per day or weather permitting. Right now he is outside 24 hrs since we just moved and have to have a barn built. He plays and runs with the other 2 but looks worse than the 24 yr old we have.
One thing keeps crossing my mind: could it be that Equinyl CM with MSM could have something to do with it? I have been feeding it for 3 years now.
Both of my Vets took a look and said they have no idea, must be genes.
Any ideas?
Thanks.
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Saturday, Nov 27, 2004 - 9:16 am:
Monika do you have a picture you can post? If not how about assessing your horses over all condition?
DrO
|
Member:
Onehorse
|
Posted on Saturday, Nov 27, 2004 - 10:10 am:
Monika,
It's hard for me to truly understand or vision what you are describing, but perhaps your horse is not using his muscles along his back which is causing the 'sagging.' Perhaps you could stretch and excercise these muscles. I know of three such excercises/stretches that can be used to build and flex these muscles (I'm sure there are others):
1. Using your fingers or the 'blunt end' of a hoof pick handle (or other such non-pointy instrument) put upward pressure along the underbelly of your horse's torso causing him to 'arch' his back. This causes the horse to stretch and build his back muscles in the opposite direction of his normal movement and gravity.
2. On level ground, hold a carrot chunk (or some other yummy) between your horses front legs, behind his shoulders and under his torso about six inches off the ground. As he goes for it, he'll stretch his neck muscles, poll, as well as arching his back and stretching his spine.
3. On level ground, take a carrot chunk or treat and stand to your horse's side by his hind and hold the yummy an inch or two from his side about two-thirds of the way back from his chest towards the rear. In going for the treat he'll stretch his poll, neck, shoulder muscles (opposite side of where you're standing) and back/spine. Repeat this on the other side.
These stretch/excercises will help build the back muscles, keep him flexible, and reward him for his exertion; and, if the 'sagging' is caused by atrophy ...help reverse the problem.
I do these excercises with my 18 year old gelding almost everyday (along with other stretches) and he is very flexible and holds his confirmation and straight back. Hope this assists you.
Rick
|
Member:
Pfdusty
|
Posted on Monday, Nov 29, 2004 - 1:23 pm:
DrO
I uploaded some pictures of his back to: https://www.affordablewebpage.net/Dusty.htm
Over all he seems very happy and content, in the mornings when I feed all horses he stretches like a cat with his front feet way extended and bending his back. He is also still the alpha horse.
Rick, thanks for the info. I think these are good excercises and will try that too.
|
Member:
Lisamg
|
Posted on Monday, Nov 29, 2004 - 4:50 pm:
Monika;
I just looked at your horse's pictures. My 9 year old gelding had a bad neck/back injury. (thread started in August..."tramatic neck injury" if you're interested). He ended up with muscle atrophy in his back on the side that was injured. It looked an awful lot like your horse's back. My horses atrophy was caused by injury to the nerves and did eventually fill in. Maybe you should get a second opinion on this.
Incidentally, I did all the stretching exercises with my horse that were listed in the previous post. They seemed to help a lot.
Good Luck.
Lisa
|
Member:
Alden
|
Posted on Wednesday, Dec 1, 2004 - 8:25 pm:
Monika,
Can you post your feeding program, weights and food stuff? Barring a medical cause it looks like he isn't getting enough groceries, or isn't getting enough out of those groceries.
I'm curious what DrO's take is on this, maybe he missed that you posted pictures.
Good day,
Alden
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Thursday, Dec 2, 2004 - 7:20 am:
Thanks Alden,
I did miss the posting. The biggest difference in the photos from 2002 and 2004 represents a loss of condition: both fat and muscle. The multiple muscle bellies up and down the back and hips and the symmetry make traumatic neurogenic atrophy as in Alden's case unlikely. A generalized neuropathy like Equine Diseases » Nervous System » Incoordination, Weakness, Spasticity, Tremors » Equine Motor Neuron Disease (EMND) might be possible.
The question is does this represent a easily correctable nutritional deficit (likely and should be assumed until proven different) or is this the first signs of some disease / toxicity problem. For evaluation of this see, Equine Diseases » Colic and GI Diseases » Weight Loss in Horses » Diagnosing Chronic Weight Loss. Besides posting the diet I would like to have seen a whole body picture.
DrO
|
Member:
Pfdusty
|
Posted on Thursday, Dec 2, 2004 - 9:05 pm:
I will try to get a full body pic tomorrow.
We moved to Alabama in August but this started already in Ohio so I really rule out poisoning from plants etc.
In Ohio they were out for about 12 hrs per day on a "pasture mix" seeded pasture. Mornings and evenings he did get:1 1/2 flakes of alfalfa/timothy hay, 1/2 coffee can sweet feed with 1 scoop of lifestock supplement and the maintenance dose of Equinyl CM (with MSM).
Now in Alabama:
They are outside all day (only have a car port roof  but will get a barn in January with 12 x 16 stalls), we just signed the contract.
They live off the pasture (3 horses on 10 acres)
which has Johnson, bermuda, bahia, dallas and some winter fescue. If the weather turns nasty to where they stay under the roof i also feed about 2 flakes of costal hay. Also mornings and evenings he gets the same as in Ohio.
I am really wondering in the glucosamine or the MSM could have something to do with it.
i'll try to post more pictures tomorrow.
Thank you!!
|
Member:
Nisquy
|
Posted on Thursday, Dec 2, 2004 - 9:18 pm:
I was just wondering if your horse is also on a daily wormer? I had a problem with a mare on a daily wormer when I added MSM to her diet. She began to lose weight and condition and my vet told me to stop the MSM, which I did. I had 4 horses at the time, and she was the only one who had this reaction, but I haven't used MSM again on any horse.
|
Member:
Liliana
|
Posted on Thursday, Dec 2, 2004 - 9:18 pm:
NO ADVICE, BUT I LOVED YOUR COLAGE ON YOUR PROFILE
|
Member:
Pfdusty
|
Posted on Friday, Dec 3, 2004 - 12:02 am:
Buffy, mine get dewormed every 2 months not daily.
Liliana, thanks for the comment 
|
Member:
Pfdusty
|
Posted on Friday, Dec 3, 2004 - 12:17 pm:
I added more full body pictures, I hope they are good enough.
https://www.affordablewebpage.net/Dusty.htm
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Sunday, Dec 5, 2004 - 8:43 am:
Good photos Moni if you have no symptoms of weakness you can DrOp off the EMND stick with the article on weight loss and I think I would focus in on the Equine Cushings reference but consider all the possibilities in the article.
DrO
|
Member:
Pfdusty
|
Posted on Sunday, Dec 5, 2004 - 1:06 pm:
Thank you DrO,
do you think I should stop the Equinyl CM in a 2/3 oz scoop it has:
Copper 13 mg
Zinc 65 mg
Manganese 50 mg
Vitamin C 1575 mg
Glucosamine HCl 2500 mg
ChonDrOitin sulfates 875 mg
Bromelain 550 mg
Methylsulfonylmethane 750 mg
If I stop the Lifestock Supplement (minerals) what kind would you recommend?
I will also discuss this with my Vet of course.
Thank You!!
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Monday, Dec 6, 2004 - 8:06 pm:
Hello Moni,
What are your current rationales for supplementation of each of the above nutrients. Do you provide a trace mineral block? You cannot evaluate a food stuff, supplements included, in a vacuum.
DrO
|
Member:
Pfdusty
|
Posted on Monday, Dec 6, 2004 - 9:01 pm:
DrO,
I divide the 2/3 oz scoop of Equinyl CM for a.m. and p.m. feeding. (btw He is the only one of the 3 horses who is on Equinyl).
And they get the same amount a.m. and p.m. of the lifestock supplement but i'm not sure what all is in it since I don't have the bag anymore.
They have 3 large mineral blocks (brown) right next to their food bowls.
My Vet is out of town right now and I was wondering if I should stop the Equinyl?
Thanks
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Tuesday, Dec 7, 2004 - 7:22 pm:
Moni,
Why do you use this supplement on this horse? If you have no good reason for any of these ingredients, then yes you can discontinue it. The brown (trace) mineral block has the minerals needed that are in the supplement.
DrO
|
Member:
Pfdusty
|
Posted on Tuesday, Dec 7, 2004 - 7:42 pm:
Dr O,
I assume you mean the lifestock supplement. I will discontinue it. Now what about the Equinyl Cm?
I started feeding it because my horse was always ouchy and it was very painful for him to get his shoes (which are Olef - 2/3 rubber with a metal core) off or on. Since I started feeding it he really improved and actually stands still for the farrier. It did seem that the glucosamine helped. But now I am wondering if it is causing all this or maybe the MSN that's in it, or the bromelain??
Sorry to keep you tied up with this post  .
Thanks again
|
Member:
Pfdusty
|
Posted on Tuesday, Dec 7, 2004 - 7:43 pm:
Are there actually side effects from Glucosamine?
Moni
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Wednesday, Dec 8, 2004 - 10:40 pm:
No problem with the time Moni. I was talking about both supplements. Both contain duplicates of the minerals available in the trace mineral block. I agree that glucosamine can make a horse with arthritis more comfortable and you will find our specific recommendation at . There are no ill effects of oral glucosamine that we recognize at this time. I do not think MSM is likely to be of any use and am unsure as to what bromelain is.
DrO
|
Member:
Pfdusty
|
Posted on Friday, Dec 10, 2004 - 7:48 pm:
Dr. O,
thank you for your help. We are starting blood work beginning of next week, and I will keep you posted.
I was searching the web for anything i can find on Cushings just in case.... and I found this article. If you have time to read it, could you please tell me what your thoughts are about it?
Also, isn't the tumor surgically removable (it is in people).
https://www.horse-supplies.org/equine-cushings-disease.htm
Thanks again for your patience.
Moni
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Saturday, Dec 11, 2004 - 7:15 am:
The tumor is in the brain so removal is not practical. In our article on Cushings, (Equine Diseases » Endocrine Disorders » Cushing's SynDrOme and Pituitary Tumors), we have a discussion on chastenberry extract, see the insert on Horminase.
DrO
|
Member:
Pfdusty
|
Posted on Saturday, Dec 25, 2004 - 7:40 pm:
Update: It is not Cushing's. My Vet drew blood morning before feeding and then 8-10 hrs later before pm feeding, administered dexamethasone and drew a final sample the next day 18 hrs later around noon.
I just received the call that everything looks normal but I don't have a copy of the results yet so I can't give details.
My Vet wants to do a basic blood test after next week. She also wants to check for internal parasites.
I guess it's back to guess work.
I did buy a 8' chasteberry tree, just in case... .
|
Member:
Pfdusty
|
Posted on Tuesday, Mar 1, 2005 - 9:25 pm:
Still no idea what is causing this:
I added sugar beet pulp to his diet (soaked over night) and put him on equine senior feed. I DrOpped the lifestock mineral but still have him on Equinyl CM. I upped his hay to basically free feeding. He is gaining around the rib cage but the top around the spine looks the same.
On the Blood Test for Cushings everything came back normal. 2 weeks later we did a CBC profile and fecal.
On the CBC:
AST (SGOT) 409 HIGH 180 - 380 Range
WBC 5.0 LOW 5.5 - 12.5 Range
Lymphocytes 1450 LOW 1500 - 7700 Range
Fecal was negative
In the mean time I had to put my 24 yr old mare down who looked so much better than he does right now. They found ecoli in her heart and lungs from parts of dead spots in the small intestine, she had the Univerity baffeled for a while. Her appendix was also a little twisted. We are still waiting for more results on her. But needless to say, I'm getting nervous over this.
But at least my rescued Mc Curdy Walking Horse is giving me a show in the pasture and impressing me daily with what moves he can do (everyone who sees him is just amazed).
Anyway.. sorry for the side tracking.... I am still trying to find out what Dusty's problem could be. I bought a lunging Caveson and surcingle and was wondering are there special lunging exercises we can do to work on the back muscles? Over poles? side reins? Anything ??
We are working on the above belly stretches too.
Thanks again.
Moni
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Wednesday, Mar 2, 2005 - 6:47 am:
My condolences on your older horse Moni.
The changes in your blood work appear mild and not significant. The gain around the ribs is encouraging, what can you tell me about the quality of the hay and how much he is eating?
Until someone discovers a disease process you are left with continuing to try and improve your horses condition with increased nutrition. The article that best addresses the possiblilities and the diagnostic steps would be Equine Diseases » Colic and GI Diseases » Weight Loss in Horses » Overview of Chronic Weight Loss.
DrO
|
Member:
Pfdusty
|
Posted on Wednesday, Mar 2, 2005 - 11:17 am:
The hay he gets is Bahia/Bermuda mix for the last week. Before that he was on Johnson/Clover mix for 3 months.. and pasture 24/7 for 4 months. Prior to that we were in Ohio and he had alfalfa/timothy mix hay.
He always got about 2 flakes still does but now the bale is about 125 lbs and 2 flakes is a lot, which i'm giving him intentionally. There is nothing left in the morning.
But I do remember in Ohio he had a hay belly but the top around the spine looked just as skinny.
Thanks
Moni
|
New Member:
Vickiann
|
Posted on Wednesday, Mar 2, 2005 - 4:54 pm:
To: Moni --
I am not a Vet., just a horse owner who has had a similar situation with a 13-year old Arabian gelding. His topline really deteriorated over a few months of time and he was looking quite sway-backed. Also, when I was riding him he was not his usual peppy self, but I thought he was just being lazy. I don't understand the results of your bloodwork but know my horse's bloodwork did show some signs of anemia and possibly of a slight infection. In early summer last year he had also lost some weight, which was surprising since the summer grass had come in and I was giving him the same feed rations I had given him in the winter. One of my horses had kept getting pinworms over the prior several months and I had wormed all of the horses (with paste wormers) more often than normal -- ivermectin wormers, once about 5 or 6 weeks after the prior worming. Whether this contributed I cannot say for sure but mention it because I heard of several dressage horses who had lost topline and condition in a similar fashion and it was stated the common factor in those cases was the use of the new wormers that have the stuff that kills tapeworms in it. (the "gold" wormers) I too had used that type of wormer, but not more than once yearly. After the bloodwork, my Vet. had me put my horse on Red Cell for about a month or six weeks, and I also changed my feed to Triple Crown ("Complete" and some "12% supplement"). When we checked his blood again a couple of months later we were delighted to find it fine, (I think my Vet. was afraid the fix wouldn't be so easy!) and after months of being lethargic he is spunky and energetic again, and he quickly gained weight. When I had a certified saddle fitter out last year he was the person who discovered the degree of deterioration because he had kept measurements of my horse from his prior trip to my farm. There had been a great deal of deterioration in 6 - 9 months time. He also noted that my horse did have some back pain at that time and he felt that perhaps was because of a saddle fitting issue. Due to the changes in his back, I had to change saddles for this horse, upon the saddle fitter's advice. With the saddle change, he got over the back pain quickly. My horse has also improved greatly with regard to his topline, though it has not TOTALLY returned to his prior condition, so I am going to try those exercises suggested for your horse! Another thing I learned is that too much vitamin D or A might possibly cause some problems, and it is not hard to over-supplement with either of those. I guess I will never know for sure what exactly caused my horse's problem but wanted to share the things we did that contributed to his wellness. I am a new member so hope it is appropriate for me to make this posting. VickiAnn}}}
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Thursday, Mar 3, 2005 - 6:49 am:
Hello VickiAnn,
Members are encouraged to help each other. I would like to comment that just about every horse is the world is on ivermectin based dewormers and we have used them as the core of our deworming programs and have not seen top line problems like you describe despite managing hundreds of horses on a heavy ivermectin deworming program. The tapeworm combination is becoming just about as widely used and has been used in humans and dogs for many decades. It is unlikely that their use, if used according to label instructions, contributed to such problems.
Moni, you might try supplementing about 5 lbs alfalfa daily in your horses diet. Both bahia and bermuda hays can be on the low side protein wise and the extra energy could be of benefit also. It also seems you have been moving a bit lately and I find when horses are first moved they do not eat well for a while and may contribute to the poor condition.
Rereading the above posts I should note that you cannot rule out Cushingnoid horses on bloodwork alone: there are a signigicant percentage that test OK but have the problem, the article explains more about this.
DrO
|
Member:
Vickiann
|
Posted on Thursday, Mar 3, 2005 - 11:33 am:
Thanks, Dr. O for the reassurance about the wormers. I have since used Ivermectin again, last November, and then after 70 days did fecals on all 3 horses and they were fine. My thought is to do fecals again when 60 days has passed since the last ones. If they are again negative do you feel it is okay to wait another 60 days before retesting or worming? All 3 of my horses are in their teens and I have plenty of pasture so they are able separate their grazing and toileting areas if they so decide. I think my horse who had the problem with deteriorated topline and low blood somehow got out of balance with minerals or diet, and hope to keep him well now. Then when the saddle didn't fit right that didn't help! Last summer he and another of my horses experieinced an episode of thumps during hot weather, and for this Arab, that was very unusual since he has always done very well with heat in the past. He was also going through a period of daily clay-eating after a colic episode a couple of months ago, but could have been trying to ease stomach discomfort more than looking for a particular mineral. All 3 horses had colics of varying degrees one week and believe it was some kind of weed they got into. I found some large patches of Corydalis I had overlooked pulling. Also, though my feed and supplement should be sufficient with regard to calcium, am thinking that for this particular horse perhaps I should add some alfalfa to his diet to supply a more usable source of calcium.
|
|
|
