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Discussion on Would like to see where the basisphenoid bone is, please.
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Member:
Oscarvv
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Posted on Friday, Dec 3, 2004 - 8:20 am:
DrO,
Yesterday was the worst day. The orphan foal we adopted 4 1/2 years ago suffocated and died right in front of us. We've had him since he was 6 weeks old. 
Anyway, besides being completely heartbroken I would like to know the located of this bone.
Apparently it was fractured and caused him to hemorrage. The weird thing is that the injury occured 5 days before he died.
Also, does the location of the bone make it possible to x-ray?
Thank you so much......
Barbara
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Member:
Canter
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Posted on Friday, Dec 3, 2004 - 8:54 am:
Heartfelt condolances, Barbara, to you and your family. May time bring peace to your heart.
Fran
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Member:
Liliana
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Posted on Friday, Dec 3, 2004 - 11:42 am:
Oh Barbara,
Words are never enough, I am so very sorry!
But look at it from the bright side, you were both lucky to have shared those 4 1/2 years when you rescue him at six weeks and gave him a lot of love and care.
May he be up in horse heaven with his horsey mum.
From the heart,
Liliana
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Member:
Oscarvv
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Posted on Friday, Dec 3, 2004 - 6:16 pm:
Thank you.....what breaks my heart even more is seeing his pasturemate and best buddy that he was raised with looking and calling for him......
Bub was a nursemare's foal, he was taken from his mom at 4 weeks of age so she could nurse another mare's foal. He was a throw-away, a by product..... his mom is probably still alive.
-B
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Member:
Liliana
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Posted on Friday, Dec 3, 2004 - 6:45 pm:
I know that there is nothing that anyone can say that will ease the pain. Just looking at the photo gave me a lump. But, please try to think of the good moments. When I have lost friends the only way that I have found help is to agree with many old believes that their spirit stays with us until it finds a new healthy body which in one way or another will return to a good friend.
Liliana
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Friday, Dec 3, 2004 - 8:40 pm:
Hi Barbara,
I am sooooooooo sorry for your loss.
On people I think the bone you are talking about is near the ocipital bone in the scull. I am not sure where this would be in a horse. Maybe DR O can tell you?
Again I am sorry.
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Member:
Oscarvv
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Posted on Friday, Dec 3, 2004 - 9:52 pm:
Thank you.
Katrina, I found out as much, that the bone is near the ocipital bone. I am wondering how deep and the size and if it could have been diagnosed with an x-ray.......I didn't need to see my baby suffocate.
He had a rough start in life and a terrible end.
-B
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Member:
Shirl
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Posted on Friday, Dec 3, 2004 - 10:23 pm:
Barbara,
What a beautiful horse he was. You have my sympathy and prayers.
Shirl
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Member:
Oscarvv
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Posted on Friday, Dec 3, 2004 - 10:42 pm:
He was always gangly and just this year, as a 4 year old, he really grew into himself. He was gorgeous....
Oh, it breaks my heart, and I know it will slowly get easier....and I will think of the happy moments, but for now, I am so sad and empty.
It's hard not to wonder what was the point of it all....to break my heart and rip my guts out.
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Member:
Shirl
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 4, 2004 - 12:03 am:
Barbara, it's not going to help much, but I lost my mare 5 weeks ago today. The grief is still raw, and I go from acceptance to anger that she's gone, to tears and back again. So many people have sent me messages, cards, etc. all with unique heart felt sympathy. Perhaps one of the most helpful was the popular, "Don't stand at my grave and weep, I am not dead, I did not die. I am a thousands winds that blow---" Believe me, his spirit rides on your shoulder, he is there with you always. Love and prayers, Shirl
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 4, 2004 - 9:12 am:
Barbara,
Coming from the heart of someone who's been thru alot of grief and heartache pet and people wise let me share my thoughts with you. I say first of all "God doesn't give us more than we can handle" & "there's a silver lining inside every cloud" You were blessed to have this beautiful animal for the time you did, and you grew as a person from that. He was allowed to touch your heart and now you must grow again from his loss.
He's not gone, he's just in another place, a place where he is happy and painfree, chasing rainbows and trying to catch the wind.
Love, prayers, and peace to you.
Angie
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 4, 2004 - 10:10 am:
I'm so sorry Barbara! My heart breaks for you. You got this beautiful boy for a reason, to give him the best four years, and you did. Be proud.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 4, 2004 - 11:27 am:
My deepest condolences he was a handsome and obviously contented grey. We are out of town right now at AAEP meeting trying to scoop up informational goodies. When we return I will see if I cannot get a whole skull up with the major bone plates marked clearly. Concerning radiography: all bones of the skull can be radiographed but often require evaluation by a radiologist, it is a very complicated radiograph. On top of this not all fractures, no matter where the location, can be visualized radiographically if they are not displaced.
DrO
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Member:
Oscarvv
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 4, 2004 - 1:45 pm:
Thank you DrO,
So while fractured from the injury it was probably not displaced until later on. We rode him the three days following his fall in the paddock. He seemed normal.
I would really appreciate seeing the skull diagram.
I thank everyone for their comments.
Today his only turnout buddy for 4 1/2 years and best buddy went on a mad tear this AM. It seemed he was either trying to out run his grief or run it out. He is so depressed and continues to wait for his friend to come home......
-B
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Member:
Oscarvv
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 4, 2004 - 3:24 pm:
DrO, one more question.
If the basiphenoid bone is fractured, but not displaced can a horse survive?
Thank you,
Barbara
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 4, 2004 - 4:33 pm:
Hello Barbara,
You've probably already thought of this...but what about introducing a couple of other horses? It would keep his mind at bay ...maybe??? It always switches my horses' gear when a buddy leaves, then he gets another one. I know it's more complicated than this, but it's just a thought.
I know that must be heartbreaking for you to watch...Prayers to you for peace.
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Member:
Oscarvv
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 4, 2004 - 5:57 pm:
Aileen,
Thank you for your thoughts. Right now he can touch our '04 weanlings over the fence. We tried putting another horse in with him and that did not go well. Ravello chased the horse around very aggressively.
Ravello has always been fine when we took him out to ride away from Bub or vice versa. I think he always trusted that he would see his buddy again.
I do plan on having someone out with him as I hate having horses alone. It just doesn't seem like it's going to work right now.
-B
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Member:
Jojo15
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 5, 2004 - 12:50 am:
Hi Barbara,
So sorry to hear of this. I think i remember when you adobted this guy... how scary. and sad.
Can you elaborate more on what happened? is this a freak accident? or something we all should know more of. I have no idea where this bone lies. and why it made your poor baby suffocate. I feel sick thinking he was in pain.
joj
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Member:
Oscarvv
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 5, 2004 - 7:13 am:
The details are incredibly painful and really it was just and accident...can't save another horse with my experience. It was an accident, he fell galloping in the pasture.
The fracture in his head shifted and caused him to hemorrhage. The blood filled around his throat area closing his trachea, he died relatively quickly. Although for me it seemed like hours...it was really just minutes. Watching him gasping and looking at us for help......I can't forget that.
I had posted a few questions on Bub when we first got him. So you may remember that.
-B
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Member:
Oscarvv
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 5, 2004 - 7:25 am:
This is the only picture we saw of Bub before we adopted him and my husband DrOve 10 hours each way to KY to pick him up.
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Member:
Gingin
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 5, 2004 - 11:43 am:
Hello Barbara,
my sincere condolences! This must have been horrible!
Until Dr. O is back to respond, I pulled this out of the Merck Vet Manual....
(https://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/htm/home.htm)
Rupture of the Longus Capitis Muscle
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After mycosis, this is the next most common cause of severe hemorrhage from the guttural pouch. The longus capitis muscle is one of the ventral straight muscles of the head; it inserts on the basisphenoid bone at the base of the skull. Rupture usually occurs at the point of insertion on the roof of the guttural pouch and is accompanied by profuse hemorrhage. There are some diagnostic features of this hemorrhage that can be used to distinguish it from guttural pouch mycosis. Horses with rupture of the longus capititis muscle have a history of trauma, usually of falling over backward or otherwise injuring their heads. On endoscopic examination, swelling and hemorrhage can be seen in the most rostral and medial aspects of the guttural pouch on retroflexion of the endoscope. This hemorrhage is not associated with any major arteries. On radiographic examination, an avulsion fracture of the basisphenoid bone may be seen.
Treatment involves stall rest for 4-6 wk; broad-spectrum antibiotics are given for 5-7 days for any infection at the site of muscle rupture. Prognosis for full recovery is good, but persistent neurologic signs or recurrent hemorrhage worsens the prognosis. Hemorrhage into the retropharyngeal space can cause asphyxia and death.
Christine
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Member:
Oscarvv
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 5, 2004 - 12:47 pm:
Thanks so much Christine, that's what I was looking for.
He had no neurological signs.
Interestingly, he was eating well, but drinking was the problem. It is my understanding that it takes more muscles to drink than to eat and perhaps it was too painful to drink.
Oh, my poor pony. I did ask for radiographs and my vet assured me they were not warranted. The last thing he said to me the night before my horse died was 'don't worry, he'll be fine'.
-B
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Member:
Gingin
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 5, 2004 - 1:36 pm:
oh man .....I wished it were easier to know what is wrong up front rather than putting the pieces together after the fact....This is definitely a reminder for myself to treat any fall as having the potential to have done some damage, even if no signs are apparent...and keep watching closely!
Also, I did find some info on where this bone is located in skulls of mammals.... https://www.vetanatomy.com/skeletal/20184.html# (click on "spenoid" and the area lights up), https://dev.biologists.org/cgi/content-nw/full/129/16/3783/FIG6 (look for "bs").
Again my condolences....I will have to give my mare an extra big hug when I go up to see her in a few minutes.....
Christine
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Member:
Oscarvv
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 5, 2004 - 1:57 pm:
Thanks, please, everyone give your horses a kiss.
I should clarify that he was drinking normally until Monday evening following his fall Friday AM.
Tomorrow I will speak with the vet that did the necropsy. I really need to know exactly what happened. The info from Merck really helps as does the diagram.
-B
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Member:
Redalert
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Posted on Friday, Dec 10, 2004 - 9:36 am:
Barbara....your picture says it all. I can just see how warm and generous he was. And you, too. The picture makes me wish for Spring, and reminds me what it is like to love a good horse. I also lost a horse(my heart along with him) suddenly. We had a necropsy done on him, which really did not come up with definitive answers...it has been 6 years and I still wish I could help him to live, and to be mine once again. Keep all those wonderful memories alive forever and remain thankful for what God gave you in this life...you are surely blessed. What a beautiful horse!
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Member:
Dyduroc
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 11, 2004 - 9:08 am:
Barbara, heartfelt condolences to you and your family. May the gentle caress of time fill the void with peace and treasured memories. You're in my prayers.
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Member:
Oscarvv
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 11, 2004 - 5:26 pm:
Thank you for the condolences. It is still so hard to talk about Bub.
I really feel I let him down some how. I thought I would grow old with Bub and Ravello. I always promised him I'd keep him safe and would never sell him.
I am so sorry to all who have lost horses they loved. I wouldn't wish this grief on anyone.
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Member:
Liliana
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 11, 2004 - 6:08 pm:
What a lovely picture, I am sure he will always be with you in spirit, you did not let him down,
you loved him and care for him.
When I had Dancer my beloved TB put to sleep it was so hard for me. I felt the same, that I let him down.
It gets easier in time. Bob will always live in your heart as long as you remember him.
Just think that at least you gave him a happy life while he was on earth.
All the best
Liliana
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Dec 17, 2004 - 1:18 pm:
Barbara, I have put up the skull image at References » Equine Illustrations » Head and Mouth » Skull and Mandible of the Horse. The basisphenoid (dark blue) is labeled with a B. Note that it continues under the overlying mandible (yellow) almost to it's back edge where the occipital bone (red) then continues.
DrO
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Friday, Dec 17, 2004 - 8:32 pm:
Barbara-what great pictures. And, what a sweet,contented looking guy, as is his friend. I, too, have lost several horses over the years; one my best friend for almost 30 yrs. It is never easy, but I have learned to be grateful for the time I have been allowed to have with them, and to try and learn some lesson from their time with me. I still miss my old friend. Kellee, and always will. He saw me through some very tough times, as well as some very good ones. Life, as always, goes on, constantly flowing, like a river. (Death is just another part of that life.) You will never be able to replace Bub, but another horse will come along that "snags your heart" again.
What did the necropsy report say? I had never heard of the basisphenoid until your post, and I've been around horses my entire life (60+ yrs.)
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Member:
Oscarvv
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 18, 2004 - 12:13 pm:
DrO,
Thank you for putting the diagram up and the description of the location of the basiphenoid.
I have not gotten the actual necropsy report yet but spoke with the Pathologist. he said that the basiphenoid was fractured and must not have displaced until later. The displacement caused hemoraghing.
I guess what I am having the most difficulty dealing with is the memory of how he died....gasping for air and looking to me for help... And everyday I watch his best and only friend for 4 1/2 years call for him, look for him, dig holes, chew the fence, paw the fence, walk the fence...it is tearing me up. Bub and Ravello were the heart and soul of our farm....
I feel the fool for putting so much of my heart into him and Ravello. I will not ever do that again....
~B
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Member:
Shirl
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 18, 2004 - 1:55 pm:
Barbara, I've given my consolences before, but I must say the pain you are suffering must be almost unbearable given the way your friend died. It's horrible enough when we have to send them on their way, but to die in this manner - and then having to watch his friend mourn for him also, is just pain beyond words. Have you thought of going to an animal grief support group? I've been told I should also, but just can't do it yet. My prayers and wishes for your peace. Shirl
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 18, 2004 - 6:33 pm:
You have not let him down, Barbara, and you're not a fool.
Though a friend's death is always ugly beyond description, he died in your hands, among friends that loved him, warm in his heart and confident that all that could be done would be taken care of.
Don't betray his feelings or yours, Barbara. There was nothing you could do that day, but there's still something you can do for him now, and that's to take good care of his friend.
Ravello is a magnificent horse. He needs all your love, especially now.
He will also go away some day. Like every horse. Like everything alive. Like you and me. We do not know what day that will be. But we do now that the only beautiful way through to that day is giving all the love we can.
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Member:
Gingin
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 18, 2004 - 7:35 pm:
Somewhere...Somewhere in time's Own Space
There must be some sweet pastured place
Where creeks sing on and tall trees grow
Some Paradise where horses go,
For by the love that guides my pen
I know great horses live again.
~Stanley Harrison
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Member:
Oscarvv
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 18, 2004 - 8:22 pm:
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 18, 2004 - 9:24 pm:
Oh Barbara, how my heart aches for you! Peace be with you hon and NO, you have NOT let him down.
Please take good care of yourself.
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 19, 2004 - 12:10 am:
barbara,
You said you got this foal at 6 weeks. Thank God for you! What life-if any- would this colt have had if not for you? So many animals live dismal lives. You obviously gave him some wonderful, well cared for years. His life was better than it would have been if not for you.
We all go to our maker at the end. It is how we spend our lives here that we can measure. This horse had such a better life than so many beings, thanks to you!
I hope that time will bring you perspective and peace that you did what you could.
Never forget that you gave him wonderful years!
Erika
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Member:
Jojo15
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 19, 2004 - 1:43 am:
Barbara,
As you might have noticed over the years, i am not a mushy type of person... usually. You are killing me with these pictures. I feel soo bad for you. But now i am feeling so bad for ravello and his grief. I really hope you don't mean what you said about putting so much of your heart into them. If you hadn't then they wouldn't have been so lucky...
jojo
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 19, 2004 - 10:15 am:
Beautiful picture! It does help to talk to someone. WhatI found helped the most was spending time with my other horses and in the barn.
I personally believe horses have souls and live an after life just as people do. When you look into the deptbs of their eyes and spend so much time around them it is hard to believe anything else.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 19, 2004 - 10:32 am:
Barbara, it is the fool who gives up years of love and contentment to prevent the relativly short periods of grief that we are guaranteed when we invest our hearts in things mortal.
DrO
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Member:
Dyduroc
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Posted on Monday, Dec 20, 2004 - 8:40 am:
Barbara, beautiful pictures of Bub and Ravello. You're still in my prayers.
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Member:
Oscarvv
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Posted on Monday, Dec 20, 2004 - 9:45 am:
Thanks everyone. Shirl, I appreciate your comments and am so sorry you have suffered such a loss yourself. I am sorry for everyone who has lost a special friend.
My house is in the barn, Bub and Rav were always my first and last thoughts of the day.
I had a week of bawling and now that the utter shock has worn off, I am coping only by trying to shut out any thoughts of Bub because it's only the awful ones. It's hard because noone I know really understands yet everyone wants the details. It is so hard to recount what happened with Bub, it brings me to my emotional knees each and every time........I can't keep doing it....especially when my feelings are generally lost on the listener.
I have Ravello turned out next to his mother. She is 9 months pregnant with her second foal, a full sibling to Rav.
I am looking for a pasturemate for Ravello. He is very aggressive towards other horses (except Bub) and I fear for him and whomever I put in with him.
I am sorry to bear my soul here....it does help.
-B
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Member:
Oscarvv
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Posted on Monday, Dec 20, 2004 - 9:49 am:
Here's Bub telling Rav a good joke!
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Member:
Oscarvv
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Posted on Monday, Dec 20, 2004 - 9:56 am:
And Bub doing his best Flipper imitation.
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Monday, Dec 20, 2004 - 10:12 am:
It does help a lot to have understanding friends to talk to....don't appologize. Probably everyone here understands what you are going through. Unfortunely, part of love and life is loss. To "wax philosophical" for a bit, life is like a journey. We meet many people (and animals) who are a part of our experience for awhile. They brings us companionship on our journey, and we learn from them and they from us; then it is time to move on to another experience. If our companion is someone we've loved, the parting is difficult, but take from it what you've learned and be glad for the experience and the time you shared. The lessons and the good memories should be what you carry with you always.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Monday, Dec 20, 2004 - 10:21 am:
He looks like he's quite the character! I can certainly see why you miss him so very much! You were blessed with his presence for only a short time, but I have to say...that short time he looks like he was in paradise ( What a wonderful thing!!
Barbara, there are plenty of people here who have been where you are and understand completely. You do whatever you need to in order to help your soul heal...Just please take care of yourself!
Peace be with you.
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Member:
Dyduroc
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Posted on Monday, Dec 20, 2004 - 10:39 am:
Barbara, those last 2 pictures are priceless! What a pair they made.
Please believe me when I tell you that, in time, gentler images of Bub will be the first that come to mind.
My very best to you.
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Member:
Redalert
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Posted on Monday, Dec 20, 2004 - 12:21 pm:
Dear Barbara
I was not going to post this because I am almost afraid to revisit those memories, but I know almost exactly what you are experiencing...my most special horse of a lifetime died in a similar manner, that is, he suffocated to death in front of me. There, I said it. I, like you , relived his last moments over and over and over. It is called "obsessive recall" by Professional grief counselors. And, I am sure the term really fits for the way you are feeling. I will email you privately later. Just know that there truly was nothing you could have done, and that it truly was comforting to him to have you there, although it certainly was very, very hard for you. HE IS FINE NOW...ABSOLUTELY NO MORE STRUGGLE. HE IS FINE. AND, one day, you will be too. God bless and keep you! I will email you today, I promise.
Nancy
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Member:
Redalert
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Posted on Monday, Dec 20, 2004 - 12:45 pm:
Yikes, Barbara, I cannot email you privately unless I have your email address. If you want, send me your email. Totally fine, either way, up to you.
Love and comfort; my prayers for you
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