This is an archived Horseadvice.com Discussion. The parent article and menus are available on the navigation menu below:
HorseAdvice.com » Diseases of Horses » Nervous System » Neurological Conditions Not Covered Above » Neurological topics not covered above. »
  Discussion on Sudden Death in 7 yo Arabian Stallion
Author Message
New Member:
Emstucke

Posted on Thursday, Dec 16, 2004 - 9:49 am:

I found my horse dead earlier this week. I had seen him the night before and he was just fine. The next morning he was dead. My vet and I posted him and found nothing. There was no signs of struggle,at all, and died only 10 feet from our beDrOom. He actually looked peaceful. We are waiting for a tox screen to come back. He was in excellent health, all vaccines were current and was only fed high quality hay. We had him with one mare who is fine and none of the other horses have been ill. He did have signs of hypoxia (blue gums) and we found a few (very few) bots. Every other organ looked perfect. If he had been poisened, he would have had to come about a 1/4 mile from the road to wind up where he did. This was a terrible tragedy. If the tox screen is neg, what are the chances it was a stroke? We live in a very secluded rural area and we did not look at his brain. It was very sad.
Member:
Onehorse

Posted on Thursday, Dec 16, 2004 - 10:39 am:

Ms. Stuckey,

My sincere condolences on your loss. My thoughts, heart and sympathy are extended to you, your family and, of course, your stallion. May peace be with him.

Rick Obadiah
Member:
Bluesman

Posted on Thursday, Dec 16, 2004 - 10:47 am:

How Sad, God bless him and you.
Regards Jan.
Member:
Lilo

Posted on Thursday, Dec 16, 2004 - 1:47 pm:

My condolences. So young ... what a shock it must have been.
My thoughts are with you,
Lilo
Member:
Frances

Posted on Thursday, Dec 16, 2004 - 2:28 pm:

I'm so sorry, Ellen. What a terrible thing. I hope you discover the cause - somehow it brings a kind of closure.

Lynn
Member:
Shirl

Posted on Thursday, Dec 16, 2004 - 3:20 pm:

Ellen, Prayers are with you as your guy goes over the Rainbow Bridge waiting for you. I have a friend who lost a young Arab mare, same scenerio. Assumed it was a heart attack or stroke. No signs of struggle, wounds, etc. I'm so sorry. Shirl
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Thursday, Dec 16, 2004 - 3:40 pm:

I'm so sorry. Sending healing thoughts and prayers to you Ellen.
Member:
Dyduroc

Posted on Thursday, Dec 16, 2004 - 5:06 pm:

Ellen, you're in my prayers. So very sorry about your loss.
Member:
9193

Posted on Friday, Dec 17, 2004 - 1:11 am:

Ellen,

My daughter and I send our condolences and heartfelt sympathy on the loss of your stallion.

Peace and Caring,
Debra
Member:
Paul303

Posted on Friday, Dec 17, 2004 - 4:05 am:

Oh Ellen, I know. I've lost two - in their prime.
One to a lightning strike, and another to a broken humerus. I've also had to make the final decision a number of times. No matter what the circumstances are, it's a gut punch either way. Best of luck...........
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Dec 17, 2004 - 6:39 am:

My condolences Ellen, heart attack or vascular accident in the brain are at the top of my list. Note that a normal appearing heart does not rule out some forms of heart attack: acute onset of arrythmia is still a possibility.
DrO
Member:
Oscarvv

Posted on Friday, Dec 17, 2004 - 8:18 am:

So sorry for your tragic loss, Ellen.
I lost my 4 1/2 year old two weeks ago....I know how hard it is.
-Barbara
Member:
Eoeo

Posted on Friday, Dec 17, 2004 - 9:37 am:

Ellen, I have been there too. Checked out mares and colts on Wednesday afternoon, left Thursday morning for my sister-in-law's funeral 400 miles away. Received a call Thursday evening that our Stakes placed AAA Qtr mare was found dead in the pasture. She had a 2 month old filly that friends kept going for me until I got home. Not a mark on her. We suspect an aneurysm. Don't know as it was in July and we had her buried immediately. What a loss. That was her first foal. She was a little clingy Wednesday afternoon but other than that, no signs that she didn't feel good. EO
Member:
Suzeb

Posted on Friday, Dec 17, 2004 - 10:07 am:

How awful for you Ellen. My condolences for you and your family.
Member:
Aacrs

Posted on Monday, Jan 24, 2005 - 11:03 pm:

Ellen, Can't believe I signed on an read your message about losing your horse so quickly. I really would be interested to know if your toxicology shows anything. On the Wed between Xmas and Newyears we discovered my 4 yr old MFT down in the lot in the afternoon. She had appeared fine in the am. by 7:00pm she was dead. The vet thought she had hurt herself, broke her neck - we buried here with no labwork. The following Wednesday almost to the hour my 9 yr old SSH was down and basically brain dead when discovered. WE sent her to university for necropsy. Everything has been ruled out - no infect ., no virus., no anything. I am suppose to send additional water samples for more testing. In the meantime I have my remaining mare stalled and carrying her water, waiting to find out something. I am very sorry to hear about your loss, but hope that sharing information will help someone else prevent such a terrible loss. I still can't talk to anyone about loosing my two. Hope you will post any findings you discover about your horse. Thanks
Member:
Sctamaus

Posted on Monday, Jan 24, 2005 - 11:32 pm:

My heart goes out to all of you. I am feeling that pain too. I lost my Arab stud 1-19-05 and waiting for results of necropsy. He would have been 3yrs old this spring. They are all such terrible losses.
Sincerely,
Cheryl
Member:
Warwick

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 25, 2005 - 5:02 pm:

Ellen and Dayla, very sorry to hear about your losses.

You are both in my thoughts.

Sue
Member:
Aacrs

Posted on Saturday, Jan 29, 2005 - 6:20 pm:

I have received the path report on my mare that died about 3 weeks ago. Nothing is conclusive, nothing is suggested as suspicious. Sarcocytitis neuroma is being repeated as it was "nondiagnositic" Dr. O can you advise on whether there are any other avenues to follow if this entire report is negative? I lost a mare in 3/02 with neuro symptoms - she became progressively worse over a week ten days. They only said it wasn't rabies. I lost a mare on 12/28/04. She was found in middle of the afternoon and was dead by 7:00 p.m. She had no feeling in front legs, couldn't hold head up or get up. Vet suspected that she had injured herself, no path was peformed. I lost mare on 1/5/05 She was not observed in the am but was discovered at 5:30 and declared brain dead by vet by 6:30. Something is wrong here and I am very concerned about keeping my remaining mare here. I will appreciate any advise or suggestions you can provide.
Thanks
Member:
Emstucke

Posted on Sunday, Jan 30, 2005 - 9:55 am:

I wish I had something conclusive to tell you all about my stallion's cause of death. Nothing was found on the tox screen, so the conclusion was a heart attack or stroke. My vet told me to let it go, sometimes you never know. The good news is none of my other seven horses show any sign of illness. I still have his one son and am expecting another foal in May. Nothing will ever replace my beautiful boy, but at least part of him will live on. Thank you to everyone for all your prayers and compassion. Ellen
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Sunday, Jan 30, 2005 - 1:26 pm:

Ellen, I'm glad you have his son; that will help a lot. It is so difficult to accept that sometimes those we love (people and animals) die without expectation or explanation. Sometimes we just have to accept the unknown as difficult as it is. I, too, have lost a horse this way -years ago-and it leaves you feeling extremely helpless. My heart goes out to all of you.
Member:
Aacrs

Posted on Sunday, Jan 30, 2005 - 9:39 pm:

Ellen, thanks for the update on your toxin screen, even though you too have no answers. I hope you will continue to see your special guy in his remaining son and soon to be foal. And, thanks to Sarah for caring about someone else's loss. I had hoped for some guidance on whether there are any other possible avenues here, because of my remaining mare, but that apparently isn't to be either. Good luck and thanks again.
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Monday, Jan 31, 2005 - 12:42 am:

Dayla, I just reread all this; I don't blame you for being concerned about your one mare. It is very strange to loose so many horses in such a short period of time. Were all the horses in the same fields? Were they kept on your property or elsewhere? What do you feed? All the same thing? If you haven't all ready, I'd go back to the begining and write down anything that was in common with these horses. What did they eat? What weeds/grasses/trees, etc. are in their fields? Anything at all you can think of they shared on the off chance it might lead to something. I think there are several different things that can cause neurological signs & result in death and that don't later show up in lab work; at least there are with other animals. I'm glad you are keeping your one mare up in the barn. Perhaps Dr. O. or someone will have some better suggestions.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Jan 31, 2005 - 6:21 am:

Hello Dayla,
Without specific symptoms or lesions found on pathology I cannot be of much help other than you should continue to look for toxins. If I understand your post above you still have not received the whole report. When you do if you will post it here I will be glad to go over it.
DrO
Member:
Aacrs

Posted on Monday, Jan 31, 2005 - 8:04 pm:

Thanks for your response Sara. The thing is that all the horeses have been on dry lot for the winter with no access to pasture. WE are feeding them all the same hay, in one round feeder. They usu get a bale in the am and a bale in the evening. WE have posts across the bottom of the feeder so that the hay should not be accumulating on the ground. I have not been feeding grain this winter at all. When we lost the one in Dec. the ground was dry and it was well below freezing that week. WE did put extra hay in the feeder in January as we were leaving for Florida and my son was going to stop by daily to check on horses and feed. It did start to rain that week, but it was still cold. Dr. O, I guess my questions is how do we continue to look for toxins when the sampling is already complete? And is there an order of likelyhood to be followed that I can suggest. I realize you need the path report and will submit as soon as it final. My vet thinks it is ok to let my mare in the barn drink out of the tank, since nothing was found in the water sample, even though the Water Survey test has not been performed. Do you agree?
Thanks Again
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Monday, Jan 31, 2005 - 8:43 pm:

Dayla, what kind of hay do you feed? Grass? a mix? I've never fed round bales but know they use them a lot in some parts of the country. Do you know if it was sprayed for bugs, and if so what was used and when?

I'll be interested to see what else you find out and anything else Dr. O has to say. Most perplexing and I'm sure, frustrating.

Member:
Frances

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 1, 2005 - 6:43 am:

Dayla: it does sound as if your hay might be suspect. Perhaps one or two poisonous plants were accidentally baled up with the hay? Some poisons leave no trace. Sara's point about the hay possibly having been sprayed is also a good one.

You must be living a nightmare, not only grieving over the mares you've lost, but also being worried sick over the remaining one. I really hope you find out what's going on here.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 1, 2005 - 7:10 am:

Looking for problems is not something you just do following an unexpected death but part of the daily care of horses. You are checking the environment for contaminants, funny smells, molds, unfortunately the list goes on forever and best can be summed up as, "something not right".

If all the other horses are drinking the water and they are not having trouble it should be OK.
DrO
Member:
Aacrs

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 1, 2005 - 10:42 am:

Thanks to you all for helping me think through this. The hay is in square bales. We bale our own hay, it was not sprayed. I am continuing to feed the same hay. It is good quality hay. I break the hay apart to feed. It would have been thrown in as a whole bale, if my husband put it in. If I did it, it was broken and put in in sections. WE started the hay field about 3-4 years ago, it is pretty clean, but of course something could be in it, but I've never observed anything obvious. All of the horses drank from the same tank. Since the last horse died, my remaining horse has been carried water. Letting her back, or not, to the water tank is my dilemma. I did finally receive the kit to send more water to Water Survey dept. It appears to be only testing for minerals. That will get to them tomorrow and takes a couple weeks turnaround time. The barn is open on the south with stalls opening directly to the dry lot. The mare is in a middle stall that had not been used all winter (two of them always stood together in one stall, so why clean all three!) Hay is stored inside next to the stalls, on raised plywood and stays dry. We have cats in the barn to keep down the rodent population. We have two german shepards that keep very close watch on any critters and will raise a rucus if something comes in the area. Doesn't mean it couldn't happen, but they are somewhat of a deterent.In the past, we frequently saw opossum/racoon roadkill near our property, but in the last couple years we see much less evidence of their presence. WE do have deer in the area, and vet tells me that there has a been problem in the deer population here, with some disease. We have a farm west of us, 3-4 miles that raise deer and the day we had our MFT buried in December, was told that by the backhoe operater that he had buried 19 horses this year and had also buried several deer at the deer farm. We have seen tracks of deer coming up to our dry lot. Vet says they are not aware of any transfer from deer population to horses. WE also have black walnut trees in pasture, that hang over dry lot. Vet had told me the past that they weren't a problem.
I had asked when one of my horses was having a lameness problem. I don't know, what else to look for! Thanks again
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 1, 2005 - 11:01 am:

Dr. O., please comment on the walnut trees. I had always thought walnut hulls were poisonous. Hopefully, I am wrong.

Sounds like your mare is well taken care of Dayla. It kind of makes you wonder about the deer though that other horses (19!) have died.

Here in S. Utah the deer in Zion Nat'l. park have beed dying from some muscle desease (white muscle desease?) Is it transferable from one species to the other, Dr. O.?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 2, 2005 - 6:30 am:

Actually most parts of the tree are poisonous but acute death is not thought to be a symptom. The trees is best known for its ability to cause founder. For more see, Equine Diseases » Poisons , Venoms & Poisonous Plants » Poisons, Poisonous Plants, and Venemous Animals. White muscle disease is a selenium deficiency problem usually seen in the young.
DrO
Member:
Chohler

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 2, 2005 - 6:14 pm:

My heart goes out to all of you in the loss of your horses, before I could only imagine what you feel.

I gave my dear friend a beautiful draft cross to ride the country, and enjoy they liked each other very much. She called sunday, they had been ridding in the country and she went down, she thought her saddle broke but it was sugars leg. She had to be shot in the field she didn't die fast enough It was so horrible. I wasn't close with the horse, but I still am so sick. I am glad your horses did not suffer. Even though you have nothing conclusive, take solace in not watching something horrible take your pet from you.

I appoligize for the grim note.

I wish I could help ease your pain.

Cheryl Hohler

Member:
Shirl

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 2, 2005 - 9:41 pm:

Cheryl - Again you suffer another loss. Even though you weren't close with the gift horse, it's got to cause your heart another bruise. My sympathy to you and your friend. I can't imagine a slow death. I'm so sorry.
Shirl
Member:
Aacrs

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 2, 2005 - 11:40 pm:

Cheryl, how sorry I am to hear about your friend's horse. I know it is so close to you that it is hard for you as well. I am grateful that my girls didn't languish and that my husband took care of having the the first two buried. Of course my last one isn't buried here, and that is harder to accept than I realized it would be. Dr. O, is this mere conincidence that the three that went down were all gaited and the one left standing is not gaited??? Thanks again to everyone.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Feb 3, 2005 - 8:36 am:

The fact they were gaited no but were they closely related?
DrO
Member:
Chohler

Posted on Thursday, Feb 3, 2005 - 11:57 am:

Dayla if you have a nice picture of your boy, you could make a memorial portrait, or a collage to put on your wall. I know it sounds silly but it does help. If you need help I'm a whiz at photo projects and can help you.


Everyone,
I just wanted to add that this is a wonderfull place most of the members are such wonderful caring people.
Member:
Aacrs

Posted on Thursday, Feb 3, 2005 - 4:55 pm:

No, there were not related,

I have thought about a painting or collage. Just haven't been ready to look at pictures yet

Thanks for thinking of it though. If I decicde to do something, I may get back to you for ideas or help.
Dayla
Member:
Aacrs

Posted on Friday, Feb 4, 2005 - 1:51 pm:

Dr. O can you please advise on what is the appropriate time frame for this necropsy report? For long can this go on? I spoke with university diagnostic lab this am, of course, they will only tell me that the case is open and that there are still "pending" tests. They will only communicate real information with the vet clinic that sent us there, who basically doesn't know anymore than what the written report says. They received animal on January 5th. How long does it reasonably take to know or know that you don't know??? My tolerance level is sinking....
Thanks
Member:
Lhenning

Posted on Friday, Feb 4, 2005 - 2:47 pm:

My condolences to all of you that write of the loss of your horses. I cannot even imagine how heartbreaking that would feel.

There is a disease that deer get called Chronic Wasting Disease. I don't think it has the same symptoms your horses had, as it is a slow death causing the deer great suffering. CWD effects their brains. There has been some speculation that it my be related to Mad Cow Disease, but that has never been proven. Though cases of it have been found in deer in Wisconsin, I have never heard of it being passed on to horses or other livestock.

Better days are ahead.

Peace,
Linda
Member:
Oscarvv

Posted on Saturday, Feb 5, 2005 - 10:35 am:

Dayla, I am sorry you are having a hard time getting info. When my horse was necropsied I was able to speak with the head pathologist right after. he was very open and willing to answer my questions. I wasn't concerned about the tox screen though, as my boy died from an injury. A little compassion goes a long way, I am sorry you are waiting. My horse died Dec 2nd and I received the formal report in the mail on the 12/23.

I am still heartbroken over the loss of my horse and the memory of his horrible death still haunts me. Although I made a memorial page for him right after he died, I can't go there now.

I just found these lyrics.....
The Dance by Garth Brooks


And now I'm glad I didn't know
The way it all would end...the way it all would go
Our lives are better left to chance...I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance

Member:
Astbury

Posted on Saturday, Feb 5, 2005 - 1:55 pm:

Dayla - having no answer must be really hard to bear, even more so since you have the welfare of your remaining mare to consider. I really hope you can get to the bottom of this soon.

This is probably totally irrelevant, but a friend lost two horses five or six years ago to grass sickness - she had 4 other horses, all of which shared the same management, grazing and everything else, none of which were affected. The field where they were all turned out had been in the ownership of my friend and grazed by her horses with no ill effect for more than 10 years previously.

The symptoms were totally different and the affected horses declined quite slowly. The only reason I mention it now is that I read somewhere that there are thoughts in certain areas of the vet. world now that grass sickness is a form of or related to botulism. If that is so, could grass sickness cause fatal neurological symptoms and affect some horses in a grouping and not others. Maybe Dr O could comment on this.

Good luck.

PS: The poem which Barbara sent to you by Garth Brooks was beautiful and I think is how we all feel when we lose our animals tragically.

Member:
Aacrs

Posted on Saturday, Feb 5, 2005 - 8:44 pm:

How nice it is to have heard from all of you. IT does help to know that there are folks out there who know exactly what this is like. The Garth Brooks lyrics are wonderful. I did spend time this afternoon with our mare, Pennie. She got to get out on the lunge line and have some fun, but after I cleaned the stall and put down about 5 inches of shavings, fresh water and hay, she nearly knocked me down to get back in. She loves being stalled. She started life as a lesson horse and loves being pampered. I have felt guilty the last couple years, leaving her in the pasture while we went off riding. She was my son's horse until he moved on to a wife, boats, and golf! But never wanted to let go of her either (the horse!) I guess the good thing here is that she is getting lots of attention, which she loves. I sure hope to have some kind of news soon, and will be sure to let you all know what I hear. I will be interested to know more aobut the grass sickness. I don't think I have heard of it before. Thanks Again.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Feb 6, 2005 - 9:37 am:

It seems like a long time to me: what tests are still pending? For more on Grass Sickness see, Equine Diseases > Nervous System > Dementia: Depression, Excitement, Coma > Grass Sickness, Equine Dysautonomia, and Mal Seco. I know folks are just trying to help but with a sudden death you don't start with a list of possibilities: there are just too many. After a thorough review of the environment fails to bring up any risks to the other horses you need to wait for as much information as possible before we can start making rule out lists.
DrO
Member:
Aacrs

Posted on Monday, Feb 7, 2005 - 10:23 pm:

I have received,apparently, a Final Path report, except for the Water Survey testing. I have tried to upload as attachment here, but server won't allow due to size of document. I will email to your horseadvice email address. My vet 's original primary differential dx was Equine Herpes. This was not diagnosed on the report. However, after some reading, it does seem to be a likely candidate. If that seems like a strong possible, what preventive steps should or can I take for the remaining mare? It appears to me that the Equine Herpes can be in a latent stage, but I don't see any references for possible length of time. Also, since the report did not find Equine Herpes, what is the chance of that being a False Negative - how accurate is the test? Thanks.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 8, 2005 - 6:41 am:

Dayla, the document you emailed me will not open. I get a graphics filter error each time I try and am uncertain what that means.
DrO
Member:
Aacrs

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 8, 2005 - 8:49 am:

Do you have a fax I can send it through. Otherwise will see what we can do about the format.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 9, 2005 - 8:43 am:

Best would be to copy and paste it into the body of the email Dayla and send that.
DrO
Member:
Aacrs

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 9, 2005 - 9:20 am:

I sent as pdf file to email. It is only 427 kb so it should be ok. I can't copy pdf from here. so if this doesn't work, I'll try something elseThanks
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Feb 14, 2005 - 11:49 am:

Dayla, I have still not received this email.
DrO
Member:
Aacrs

Posted on Monday, Feb 14, 2005 - 12:12 pm:

I have emailed again, as an Adobe file. Please let me know if nothing is coming through, or you are not getting the attachment. Thanks, I will appreciate your opinion on all of this.
Dayla
Member:
Aacrs

Posted on Thursday, Feb 17, 2005 - 9:48 pm:

Dr. O I have sent the path report via email. Have you received?
Thanks
Dayla
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Feb 18, 2005 - 7:46 am:

I got it Dayla, I just have not have found time to study it yet.
DrO
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Feb 19, 2005 - 6:16 pm:

Dayla, it is missing the last page in both yours and your friends emails. Do you have that last page?
DrO
Member:
Aacrs

Posted on Saturday, Feb 19, 2005 - 7:48 pm:

The last page was faxed late. It is at my desk at work and I can send to you on Monday, However, it merely consists of the conclusion of the sentence on the bottom of the 7th page that says the tests were negative for rabies. Also, I don't know if I mentioned that the horse had no quarter horse/paint background re: the HPP. She was not a Paint, she was Spotted Saddle Horse with Walking Horse background
Thanks
Dayla
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Feb 20, 2005 - 10:07 am:

Dayla you see the conclusions: there is no explanation here as to why your horse died and I agree.

It does rules out colic and makes some sort of functional heart or functional neurological disease more likely. The cause of the functional disease remains a mystery. Though they hypothesize toxic and infectious disease sometimes hearts develop fatal arrythmias and brains develop neurological seizures for unknown reasons and these do not always leave tell tale signs behind.
DrO
Member:
Aacrs

Posted on Sunday, Feb 20, 2005 - 3:53 pm:

What would be the probability of two horses in the same herd manifesting similar episodes and dying within similar time frames from unrelated causes? I clearly understand that the path report is non diagnostic, but it appears to me, from the last comments, that additional testing could have been performed, had additional samples been available. Can you suggest what else could have been possible, based on the likelihood of it causing sudden and unexpected deaths? There are no obvious cause of death answers, but I would, at least, like to be able to eliminate or reduce to whatever degree possible the chance of this happening to the remaining mare. Even though there are no definitive answers here, I am hoping to find some "educated guesses" to be made that could conceivably result in reducing the chance of this scenario repeating itself with the remaining mare. Had this been an isolated event, something unique to that animal could be accepted as a "likely" cause of death. But when two, unrelated, apparently healthy, horses succumb with a week of each other, something external seems much more likely to be the culprit. I have forwarded this case to a couple of Universities and hope that they will be able to offer some insight. If this happened in your herd, what precautions would you be taking for your remaining animals??? Considering, we already, as standard practice, take steps to eliminate/prevent problems, I would appreciate recommendations for any above and beyond the usual "standards of care" -Dayla Gentry
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Feb 20, 2005 - 5:34 pm:

Hello Dayla,
other than the time frame, we don't have any proof these deaths are related as the cause of the first death in unknown. Two deaths so close, is this common? No, but by itself does not mean these deaths are related.

We have covered how I would handle an unexpected death where I suspected a external cause but because I do not know your situation I cannot list the thousands of specifics. If you are afraid of missing something, have your vet out to do a complete review of the farm.

No matter how many tests you perform there can be more tests performed, but this is pretty thorough. The lack of findings and that others in the herd have not been effected, suggest to me that my suggestions in my last post most likely.
DrO
Member:
Aacrs

Posted on Friday, Apr 1, 2005 - 10:02 pm:

Dr. O, you may remember that a month or so ago, I had sent a pathology report to you concerning a horse that I had die over the winter. (it was in the equine diseases, neuro section, under something like "I found my horse dead") The pathology report was non diagnostic. I haven't gone back to read the posts, but as I recall you were not able to make any educated guess at that time as to what may have been the cause. Since that time I have been in contact with the University of Kentucky Livestock Diagnostic Center and the United States Dept of Agriculture. Both vets that I have communicated with indicated that my horses likely died of botulism. In fact the UofK vet simply said they did die of botulism. They both recommended I have my remaining mare vaccinated. The USDA wanted me to refer the case to the State Vet office, which I have also done. I think he was of the opinion that the local vets may need to be educated about the botulism vaccine. He indicated that in his private practice, before life with the USDA, that he vaccinated approx 70% of the horses he saw. I have since been trying to get my horse vaccinated, but there is a "backorder" on the vaccine by the manufacturer. Both vets also indicated that the bacterium is available in a wide range of feedstuffs, and that it is in the "family" (so to speak) of tetnus. For anyone interested, the manufacturer is Neogen Corp out of Michigan.and, I believe is for the type b, (which if I remember correclty from my reading, would not be the type associated with, for example, a dead animal in the hay) I have not found any vet yet who has suggested that there was any significant risk to the vaccine and I have spoken with about 6 different vets concerning the vaccine. I found two vets (equine specialists) who routinely stock the vaccine, but do not have any on hand due to the backorder problem. I would agree that contacting the state vet lab to determine incidence a good idea, but my experience here is telling me that they probably have no idea was is really happening, unless it strikes in a large herd. Small herds, or an instance of one horse here or there gets no ones attention. When I told the USDA vet about the unusually high number of horses buried in our area, he was very insistent that the State Vet be informed. However, I have yet to hear back from them (State Vet Office in IL) So, if we do have a botulism problem here, they don't know and probably won't figure it out. Thankfully, my mare is still fine.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Apr 2, 2005 - 10:44 am:

Hello Dayla,
On the last report I have it states there were multiple ancillary tests still pending and I presume these were all negative?

To learn more about botulism, incidence by state, clinical signs, and vaccination in horses see the article Equine Diseases » Nervous System » Incoordination, Weakness, Spasticity, Tremors » Botulism Poisoning, Shaker Foals. As you will see in the article over a 19 month period 2 years ago botulisim was not reported in IL though it was seen in close by states. The lack of reporting does not rule it out however. Of particular interest to you may be the case studies of herd break outs. Though peracute death (found dead) was not seen in any of the numerous cases reported on, if a horse ingested enough of the toxin it would be possible. Usually a source of a rotting carcass or rotting vegetation contaminated with soil is found and I would consider a important clue and key to preventing further cases. Do you have horses, other than these 2, buried on your property and where they buried shallow? I do remember a unusual herd outbreak that was believed to be caused by pasture contamination with crow feces that had been feeding on a dead carcass in a close by pasture.
DrO
Member:
Emstucke

Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 9:18 am:

I just wanted everyone to know that we had a beautiful filly born Mother's day morning, the daughter of our stud who died. She is the spitting image of her father. She is strong and healthy. He lives on through her.
Member:
Frances

Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 10:51 am:

Ellen, that's wonderful news, and well-deserved. I'm so happy to hear it!

Lynn
Member:
Oscarvv

Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 12:04 pm:

Oh, how wonderful, congratulations.
-Barbara
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 3:21 pm:

Ellen, what wonderful news! I'm sure it's good for your heart to see her! Might we see some pictures?
Member:
Paul303

Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 3:00 am:

I so enjoyed reading Ellen's news. Good news is a panacea for many of life's crushing blows.

Dayla, in the early nineties, I watched a horse lose his life to botulism. It was a rough and dramatic neurological situation that was difficult to watch. He was a dynamic roping horse housed with a much loved 40 yr old retired roping horse with no teeth. The old horse was fed soaked alfalfa cubes + supplements and copious amounts of DrOol. Unfortunately, there came a period where, due to extenuating circumstances, the food bin with the DrOoled on cubes could not be cleaned for awhile. During this time, the younger horse went, at least once, to the bin and finished up the alfalfa "slops" which, for days, would sit with a scummy skin on top. Apparently, Chlostridium Botulinum ( sp ) are anerobes, so we sampled the remains and sent them to Mass. Gen..
( connections ). Sure enough, Clostridium botulinum was found. I could have taken it further and pinpointed the strain, but the neurological symptoms were so profound that I didn't deem it necessary. Every horse I've ever owned, has the vaccine since then.
Member:
Aacrs

Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 10:18 am:

Ellen, how thrilling to have your new baby! I know she will be very special to you.
Lee, thanks for your comments about using the vaccine - I have given one injection and the vet comes again this week for the second in the series of three. I still hold my breath sometimes when I go to the barn, but hopefully, we are on the right track. I have a new gelding to work with and am trying to decide whether to have the mare bred. It is getting to be decision time... I just am a little worried about having the skill to bring up baby right!
Hope everyone has a great summer!
Member:
Dyduroc

Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 11:12 am:

Ellen, that's wonderful news! I'd love to see pictures, too!

D.
Home Page | Top of Page | Join Us!
Horseadvice.com is a BBB Accredited Business. Click for the BBB Business Review of this Horse Training in Stokesdale NC