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Discussion on Help-White line and lameness (part 1)
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New Member:
mandrie
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 30, 2007 - 10:57 pm:
This is long-I apologize.
I have a beautiful, 4 yr 16 hand plus saddlebred with whiteline (?) in all 4 hoofs. My hopes were to make him into a children's hunter for my daughter, he has (had) a lovely long stride. I knew about the diagnosis when I purchased him in June, and the vet who did the pre purchase said she didn't see any active disease, but may be prone to abssses. He was otherwise sound. The first farrier recommended shoes, he was fine for about six weeks (light schooling, nothing stenuous). Then he came up with mild lameness on the right front, most prominent while lunging to the right. Had another vet out, he thought the white line had compromised the hoof wall, pulled the shoe, recommended treating white line with thrush buster, and a trim. Two days later, farrier reset all four shoes (thurs) On Saturday, horse was very lame on the right front, vet came same day, thought it was an abscess, pulled the shoe, dug around, could only find a very little fluid, recommended aggressive soaking and bute. Farrier came out again, trimmed what was chipping out, but did not put a shoe on the right front.
Robie (my horse) recovered 80%, but was not 100% on the right front (he was on stall rest for 4 wks, then limited turnout)-put it down to the fact he didn't have a shoe on that foot.
On the advice of the farrier, pulled all the shoes, that evening he was okay, the next day he wouldn't move, very sore all four. Called the vet, when he came out horse had recovered somewhat, but still lame on the right front. Had xrays of both front hoofs, initially vet said no rotation, no fracture of the coffin bone (see below) but recommended that we resect the hoof wall on both fronts to treat the white line. I did alot of on line research, including this site, and felt the recommendation made sense, i had a lame horse, and knew i had a hoof issue which had to be addressed. Farrier who pullled the shoes was against it-recommended just treating and waiting for hoofs to grow out, also thought there may be a shoulder problem because horse would hold his head high and to the outside while lunging to the right (but couldn't find any difference in shoulder height or tenderness to support this). Vet came out again, again recommended removing the hoof wall to treat the white line.
Yesterday vet and new farrier came out, removed about 1 1/2 inch of hoof wall on the left front, most of the way around the hoof, a little less on the right front. While there, vet pulled out the x-ray images and said maybe there was some minimal rotation of the right front, but was confident with right shoeing could resolve the lameness . Also said that hoof testers revealed some tenderness over the frog on the right front. Both warned me horse would be sore after the shoeing, but should resolve in a week, if got worse to call. They put shoes on backwards on the front with equa pak, only three nails towards the heal, regular shoes on the back. While he was shoeing the back he noticed bruising on both back feet at the toe.
So, today, 24 hours later, went out at lunch to hand walk per vet and farriers recommendations, and again this evening, and my horse would hardly move. I was in tears. To me, it looks as if his right front knee is slightly hyperflexed backwards (I know there is probably a more technical name for this) which I think is a result of the heal being raised by the shoe? and his reluctance to put weight on the left front. but he is obviously sore on all four, very reluctant to traverse the 20 yards of gravel to the indoor arena, snorted in protest during the 5 minutes of hand walking, and generally looked pathetic. I gave him 2 grms of bute (will repeat in the morning) and called the vet, leaving what I hope was a comprehensible message.
So (deep breath) my questions are:
Would removing the separated hoof wall result in lameness?
or is it more likely that it is the shoeing or the pressure on the sole frog from the equa pak?
If so, how long should I expect the soreness to last?
Where do I go from here?
As an aside, I have no criticism of any of the vets or farriers I have dealt with, all have taken their time, responded to questions, but I still have a lame horse. (three vets, three farriers later). And things seem to be moving in the wrong direction.
I have a disk with the xrays, but I have Macs at home, and can't open the program, so don't think I can post them. I could take pictures of his feet if it would help. I can not see any difference between the right and left coffin bone on the images the vet showed me.. The horse is on a hoof supplement, otherwise healthy, not overweight.
This horse has a remarkable personality, is very smart, and is the barn favorite despite his Houdni like talents in unlocking most stall doors, and it is very hard to see him so uncomfortable. ANY HELP OR ADVICE WILL BE VERY MUCH APPRECIATED.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 31, 2007 - 6:58 am:
Boy Marie you have been thru quite a bit. I don't know much about WLD, but some other things in your post sound very familiar to my horse.
My horse went thru bruising at his toes which made him VERY sore I believe it was caused by laminitis and thin soles. His rt. front was the worst also as far as lameness.
The thing that helped him most was a routed out wide web shoe... so no sole pressure. We added equipak also, but a little thinner than recommended...not quite to the rim of the shoe, that way we had support with out pressure on the sole. I have had 2 experiences on other horses where the equipak made them very sore because too much was in there and put too much pressure on the sole. We pulled it out after a couple days and they remained sore for awhile.
The first shoeing we tried on him without routing out the shoe and adding equipak made him VERY Sore and had to pull the shoes in a couple days.
That has been my experience in a nutshell with bruised feet and laminitis. I have post in here called shoeing bruised feet part 1 2 3 and 4 plus the founder section...that's how long it went on. Dr.O. and others offered very good advice in there
Can't help with the WLD. Pics would probably help Dr.O and others that have dealt with it. Good Luck
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 31, 2007 - 8:21 am:
Welcome to Horseadvice marie,
I think most folks join this site expecting to get firm answers to the question of "What is wrong with my horse?" And while firm answers are always possible, no one can accurately answer such questions without examination. Besides the copious factual information in the articles and discussions what Horseadvice.com can help you do is to ask the right questions in the right order. Until you do this you really cannot figure stuff out.
Concerning the direct questions you ask, I would answer:
1) It is possible to remove enough wall so the sole becomes bruised and sore.
2) It is possible to improperly shoe a horse to become sore.
3) How long they will be sore depends on how bad the issue is and how long it takes to correct it.
But the problems with these answers is what any of these facts have to do with your horse is uncertain.
I can certainly understand your concern with the shoeing since there has been a worsening following the shoeing that is more than you expected. But the questions that need to be answered first are: Where, exactly, is the horse sore and then why is he sore?
You will need a veterinarian to do a thorough examine on the horse and discover the cause of this newest exacerbation of lameness. Choose the veterinarian you think best able to answer these questions and stick with that one vet. Although I agree it sounds like a foot problem, and possibly bruising all the way around, this needs confirmation by exam. Consider the steps taken in Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Localizing Lameness in the Horse and then if localized to the hooves Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Overview of Diagnosis and Diseases of the Foot.
Until you do get this figured out I recommend you consider the treatment recommended in Diseases of Horses » Lameness » First Aid for the Lame Horse. I would be sure the bedding in the stall is soft.
DrO
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New Member:
mandrie
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 31, 2007 - 9:13 am:
Thank you both for your prompt reply.
Dianne-what did you mean that the shoe was routed?
Dr. O,
I did not mean to leave the impression that I was skipping from one vet to another-I have been working with the same vet since the initial lameness (one other did the pre purchase, other was consulted on the white line)-however I have been through three farriers, the last was recommended by the vet. I will again review the article regarding localizing lameness-but if the horse is walking stiff on both fronts (short step, marked head bob) will blocking one foot at a time help in the diagnosis? Hopefully I can get the vet out today or tomorrow. Again thank you both for the response.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 31, 2007 - 1:39 pm:
Hi Marie routed out means he takes a grinder and grinds down the inside edge of the shoe so there is no sole contact...it is the ONLY way my gelding could be shod at the time and be comfortable. Then adding the equipak CS so it didn't quite fill to the rim of the shoe...thus no pressure from pad yet protection and some support for sole and coffin bone.
Dr.O. is right you need to try and get a firm diagnosis...walking stiff on both fronts can mean alot of things...but founder and or bruises would be my 1st suspicion. IF acute laminitis I would get the shoes off and get him on some styrofoam blocks and bute. BUT it is not clear what you are dealing with.
Does he have a bounding digital pulse? any heat in hooves?
Good luck
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New Member:
mandrie
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 31, 2007 - 3:09 pm:
No bounding digital pulse I could find last night, or heat.
I did speak to my vet, he felt soreness was from the pressure from shoe/pack, but thought it was important to support the coffin bone, and wanted to wait another day before considered pulling the shoes. He advised bute, extra bedding, and will call me again tomorrow night.
Dr. O/one of the recommendations for treating bruises was cold water soaks-I don't want to soak these feet, but would ice/with a plastic bag to keep the feet dry be an option? Would there be any countra indications to using ice to relieve the acute soreness?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 31, 2007 - 5:05 pm:
Hi Marie I just wanted to let you know that Normally if the horse is on bute there will be no bounding pulse or heat and the hoof tester test usually won't be accurate. IME anyway.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 1, 2007 - 8:17 am:
You can skip any localization steps that answers questions you already have the answer to marie. Typically horses walking stiffly do not require blocking to localize the location of the lameness. But if the location remained in doubt blocking would be useful to localize where it comes from. What concerned me about your first post was the lack of firm localization and diagnosis of pain.
Though you often read the recommendation that appliances that cause discomfort be given time to see if the horse adjust, my experience with appliances put on the foot that cause solar pain is that they will often develop severe bruising which if it goes on leads to abscessation or ulceration of the sole.
I am sure we could find some contraindications to icing if we looked hard but considering the diagnosis it would be logical to relieve discomfort. I also see no problems with the extra layer of plastic. You should discuss this with your vet and farrier however before you institute new therapy.
DrO
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 1, 2007 - 9:52 pm:
Dear marie, not much to add, but I can certainly commisserate (sp). Have been dealing with WLD with my horse since before February this year. It went away and came back. We seem to be keeping it in check at this moment.
Levi was very sore for about a week after the resection, kind like cutting your fingernail back to far, I guess.
If you want to check on our story, check out Levi's WLD in the Lameness section.
He had it in one foot and then jumped to another.
Good Luck with this, it is a hard battle, but I agree not to get his foot wet.
suz
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New Member:
mandrie
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 1, 2007 - 10:47 pm:
Suz, I have read the posts re Levi, and can relate.
I showed a lot as a kid (hunter jumpers), and never heard of white line disease. The farrier who assisted my vet said he has been referred a number of cases where the diagnosis has been wld, but has only seen 3 or 4 real cases of actual wld, the rest he felt were more cases of bad hoof care/trimming etc, unfortunately he thought my horse was one with wld.
My vet came out last night (after taking his children 'trick or treating!!- above and beyond in my book), and felt we should give it at least another 24 hours, then consider other shoeing options. Tonight I walked Robie for about 1/2 hour, he has definitely improved, but still sore. Sometimes it is a bit hard to judge because he has all the energy of an adolescent (and just about as much sense).
I hope to be able to take some pics of the front two hoofs tomorrow. I think the angles are right-we'll see.
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Friday, Nov 2, 2007 - 5:26 pm:
marie anne, as you could tell from reading Susan and Levis WLD saga that Whiskey and I went thru the same struggle at about the same time and eventually we made it thru.Almost to much info and too many versions of what to do.It would be hard to have first one putting on shoes the next removing them etc. No wonder tears fell!Since it is air and the ability to keep area clean and dry that works the best for us shoes were an absolute no no! It takes a long time to resolve WLD please post as much as you need and know Susan and I soooo understand! Cindy
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New Member:
mandrie
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Posted on Friday, Nov 2, 2007 - 11:52 pm:
Robie tonight was still very sore, I handwalked him for about 15 mins, and unfortunately, appears the right is the worst (where the original lameness was), It also looked like that some time during the day he had worked himself into quite a sweat-the mineral block (at lease 10 lbs), was off its stand in the corner and in the middle of the stall-he does not like to be left alone in the barn. Frankly, i am beginning to wonder if this horse will ever be sound.
I will ask my vet to come out next week, do a thorough exam, and go through our options.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 3, 2007 - 8:14 am:
If the horse were sound in June when you bought him Marie, I do not see anything in the above that suggests permanant lameness. I only see problems with the horn, a structure that can regrow to be 100%. Until good evidence of a uncurable lameness occurs I see no reason to disparage though I certainly can understand your frustration.
DrO
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Member:
mandrie
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 3, 2007 - 1:57 pm:
Thanks Dr.O
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Member:
mandrie
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Posted on Monday, Nov 5, 2007 - 12:25 pm:
Pictures follow-not for the faint of heart, these feet are ugly. However, he is walking easier, but still stepping short with the right front. I think the front angles (to the extent you can tell) look okay.
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Monday, Nov 5, 2007 - 1:27 pm:
Hi Marie, I know what your mean about ugly. I remember the first time they kept chopping away at Levi's hoof, I thought I was going to throw up!!!, And then they would go up a little higher. At least they can still keep shoes on, we had to glue levi's shoes on for quite some time.
Hang in there, keep them dry and clean.
Good Luck
suz
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Nov 5, 2007 - 6:03 pm:
Marie anne,
Thanks for the photos.
The right foot is more painful? Is that "your right" as you face the horse or the "horse's right"? Is he short on the right to get the weight off the left? Which leg does he rest? Considering just the instability created by the wall removal I would have much expected the the left to be sore and I would not have shod that foot since there is no wall support at all. I would have stalled that horse on soft bedding for the next 2 months and seen if a boot might hold for short turn out periods. Can we have images of the solar surfaces?
DrO
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Member:
mandrie
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Posted on Monday, Nov 5, 2007 - 7:08 pm:
It is a puzzle, the left foot is in worse condition. The right (his right) has always been more of a problem, that is where the original lameness began. (When I refer to the right, I mean his right). He doesn't rest one more than the other that I have noticed, except immediately after the wall was removed, and then he was resting the left. The left has more hoof wall to the rear, but didn't show up on the photos. He is currently on stall rest, only handwalking. My vet told me it was important that he did move.
Before the hoof wall was removed, and he was without shoes, I tried boa boots for turn out, but he would act crazy, and slip with the boots on and I was afraid he would do even more damage to himself.
He has equa-pak, so solar photos of the front won't reveal much.
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Member:
mandrie
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Posted on Monday, Nov 5, 2007 - 8:37 pm:
Dr.O, regarding the shoe on the left, (and I know you haven't examined him), assuming he continues to show modest improvement, would you consider pulling it? Is there a probability it is doing more damage than good? What factor's would you consider?
Regarding your question whether the short step was to take the weight off the left-I do not believe that was the case pre-resection, he exhibited a head bob, but wasn't really short, but the same thought (that he was saving the left) did occur to me when I was walking him yesterday.
Thank you again, this site is a terrific resource in helping me address these issues with my vet (not to mention the invaluable support from others who have had similar problems).
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Member:
mandrie
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Posted on Monday, Nov 5, 2007 - 10:42 pm:
One more question-what are your thoughts on treating the feet for a period of time for the white line with the thrush buster, then using an epoxy to fill in the defect? I did read the article on treating white line , but if the defect is large after the removal of the wall, and has been treated for, lets say one month, would there not be some benefit in filling in the missing hoof wall?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 6, 2007 - 7:26 am:
I would have never considered putting a shoe on that foot marie. My concerns would have been bruising of the sole with the concentrated pressure around the edge of the shoe. Maybe the way the Equi-Pak is put in it will keep it from bruising but that is not evident from the photos. If you are certain all of the WLD has been eliminated well applied Equilox may allow earlier riding.
DrO
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Member:
mandrie
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 6, 2007 - 5:56 pm:
I walked Robie for 1/2 hour at lunch, and lunged him briefly at a trot. I could not see any head nod, marked lameness, or real difference in the length of stride between the left and right, though he still is not moving as freely in the front as he had in June-however, he has certainly improved. I did lunge him in side reins, mostly to let him know it wasn't play time, and this could have affected his stride slightly. This was in the inside arena, which has fairly soft footing.
I will discuss Equilox with my vet when he comes for the re-check next week.
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Member:
mandrie
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Posted on Friday, Nov 9, 2007 - 9:20 pm:
Dr.O-this is a question re: how a hoof grows-please let me know if I need to start a new post:.
Robie had 1-2 inches of the wall removed, leaving exposed horn (? re correct term) My question is how does the hoof grow? In Robie's case, the underlying horn on the left appears compromised-I guess my question is does the this layer grow down with the wall? I apologize if this is covered by other articles-I just couldn't find the answer.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 10, 2007 - 8:01 am:
Yes this will grow down and eventually disappear out the bottom. For more on how hooves grow see, References » Equine Illustrations » Leg Anatomy and Conformation » The Coronary Band: a close up of how the wall is produced.
DrO
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New Member:
suetrish
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Posted on Monday, Nov 12, 2007 - 8:23 pm:
Marie, perhaps you should consider a hoof care professional than does a natural trim and avoid nailed on shoes altogether for long term hoof and general health for your horse.
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Member:
mandrie
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 13, 2007 - 8:07 am:
Thanks Susan, yes this is something to consider for the future. At the moment, Robie of is off bute, walking much easier. The vet came out to check the white line on the front yesterday, found only one small chalky spot on the left which he pared out, otherwise looks good. He also noted for the first time since he has been treating the horse that the digital pulses on the front were normal. We discussed pulling the back shoes, as he agreed exercise should be confined to handwalking for the time being. Farrier is coming out in two weeks, so I will also discuss this with him.
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New Member:
suetrish
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 13, 2007 - 9:30 pm:
Hi Marie,
I was really thinking that taking the shoes off now and leaving them off is the best option. Metal shoes impede every normal function of the hoof and putting them on healthy hooves let alone compromised ones just doesn't make sense. You need the best possible blood supply to get healing happening and barefoot will give you this. Good Luck.}
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Member:
mandrie
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Posted on Monday, Nov 26, 2007 - 12:46 pm:
Dr. O,
The farrier came out today to check Robie. We took off the back shoes, but left the fronts alone. He is now trotting sound in the pasture when he is out. He hoofs have grown about 1/4-1/2 inch.
In speaking to the farrier afterwards, he said he thought there was a connection between white line and poor circulation in the hoof. I didn't see anything in your article about this-have you seen any research on this? If there is a connection, besides exercise, are there any ways to improve circulation to the hoof?
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Monday, Nov 26, 2007 - 10:09 pm:
Keeping a horse barefoot will enhance the "hydraulic" system by allowing the natural compression (expansion) and contraction of the hoof that a shoe prevents. This expansion and contraction pumps the blood through the structures of the hoof, which is the way it's designed by nature to function. That also helps absorb concussion. This is a huge over simplification, but you can read Dr. Robert Bowker's research on this and it will be a major education. Actually, the current issue of "Horse and Rider" has a pretty good article that sort of explains it without getting too technical.
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Monday, Nov 26, 2007 - 10:14 pm:
For more about Bowker's studies go to https://cvm.msu.edu/RESEARCH/efl/index.htm
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Monday, Nov 26, 2007 - 10:19 pm:
OK, the link doesn't work. I'll try to find it as everyone with hoof questions will find it interesting.
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Monday, Nov 26, 2007 - 10:32 pm:
Try this link and click on the abstract(s) you're interested in. https://old.cvm.msu.edu/RESEARCH/efl/pages/publications.htm
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 27, 2007 - 6:17 am:
No I don't think circulation has anything to do with white line disease and for good reason: it is a disease that attacks non-living tissue, the horn (cornified) of the white line. There is no circulation through this tissue. Moisture and exposure to the organism appear to be the main way this occurs. Trimming practices that promote breaking down of the white line and giving the organism more points of entry may contribute but I have seen WLD in well trimmed horses also.
DrO
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New Member:
marieanh
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 10, 2009 - 12:21 am:
Hi,
Since I last posted, my horse has been mostly sound, but still has frankly crappy feet. He is otherwise in great condition, is on a hoof supplement, dry pasture, etc. On occasion, after a trim or reset he is mildly foot sore, but nothing dramatic. He has shoes on all four. Based upon the amount of thrush buster, etc I have poured on his feet I have a difficult time believing there is any living organism causing the problem but assuming there is, is there any way to take a culture and determine the organism causing the problem? I have a great vet and farrier, but we always seem to be 1/2 inch away from defeating the problem.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 10, 2009 - 8:08 am:
Marie I can commiserate with you, my horse has crappy hooves also. They are coming along finally tho. He had thrush or WLD also, his WL was very crumbly and if I dug it out it had a black ring going around it. Long story short, I pulled his shoes awhile back and left him barefoot so I could dig the crud out. I poured thrush buster on it and finally got it under control. When we put his shoes back on we put Sav-a hoof Gel on his WL first. The next time the shoes came off it looked much better.
I just had his shoes pulled again and the WL was soft and crumbly again. I have treated it by digging it out again and putting thrush buster OR Tomorrow on it, It resolved rather quickly.
I guess my point is....is it possible to pull his shoes and treat his WL? Just doing this for a week last time really helped my horse. It seems shoes hold the moisture there and for horses that are prone it disentegrates the WL.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 10, 2009 - 8:15 am:
Hello marie ann,
When you say he has crappy feet, what exactly about the hooves is not right?
DrO
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New Member:
marieanh
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 10, 2009 - 9:42 am:
By crappy I mean soft soles and the hoof wall separates and breaks off when not in shoes. I had a second opinion from a vet recommended to me as a lameness expert and she thought it was a mechanical problem so shoes would help stop the wall from pulling away. The reason I wonder about a culture is that I had a spaniel with constant ear infections-the first vet would prescribe DrOps and antibiotics but never cleared up completely. We moved, and the new vet actually cultured the stuff-turned out it was a combination of a fungal infection and a staph infection resistant to the antibiotics first prescribed. When we knew what it was treatment was much more effective. But I have never seen or heard of any way to culture "white line" infection-is it possible to do this?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 12, 2009 - 9:39 am:
Unlike culturing chronically infected spaniel ears, the problem with culturing the hoof parings of horses is that you come up with a huge mixed bag of funguses and bacteria or uncertain significance. The two common infections of the hoof horn: white line disease and thrush are easily diagnosed from clinical signs so don't need culture. Now that said there has been some indications that there are types of horn infections where wide spectrum antimicrobial treatment applied to the outer walls helped with crumbly and splitting horn over time.
That said I find the most common reason for distal wall horn troubles either excessively long hooves or moisture problems. Thin soles are most often due to poorly conformed, or trimmed feet.
These are not simple problems to diagnose and only with a proper diagnosis are you going to make progress....marie would it be possible to post clear images of the damaged wall, the sole, and conformation shots of the feet? Maybe we can get you started down the right road with this information.
DrO
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New Member:
marieanh
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 12, 2009 - 6:50 pm:
Thank you. I will try and get good pics. He is on a 6 week trimming cycle and has been for the last 1 1/2 years. Moisture in my part of Indiana has not been a problem this year its been fairly consistent and dry, he is turned out during the day in a very nice box stall at night.
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 12, 2009 - 8:59 pm:
Hi Marie anne, I know the feeling of frustration with these poor guys. Levi still battles some chalky white line, I have given up posting here even as it seems I am just always repeating myself. We too have been dry and he is in a clean stall etc. etc. I finally just gave up and do the best I can, considering the vet/farrier situation I have to deal with. Hang in there.
suz and Levi
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Sep 14, 2009 - 9:12 am:
Susan, what prevents you from getting your horse well? Best would be to post this back in your discussion so we can have a continuous history.
DrO
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New Member:
marieanh
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Posted on Monday, Sep 28, 2009 - 6:09 pm:
Hi,
I have photos, but am still working on resizing them.
My farrier came out today. Robie threw a shoe last Friday on the right front, and was progressively sore since then. I had two vets look at him during the week (they were out looking at other horses at the barn) the first thought there may be a mild absesss, other thought the lameness was due to the wall separation and suggested removing the wall (as Dr. O recommends for treating white line disease. Per the first vets suggestion, I have soaked and wrapped the right front with ichthamol.
So here's my question. Today the farrier rasps the wall on the right front to where there was a good junction, maybe 1/2 inch all around. But this has been the situation for the last year-his hoofs grow fine, then separate the last 1/2 inch-almost uniformally on all four. My farrier does not believe this is whiteline disease, at least not as he has seen in it other horses. Is there another explanation for chronic wall separation?
Today, we glued shoes on the front (no nails), then wrapped with equicast. the back were reset, no glue needed. We discussed leaving him barefoot with boots, but decided that he need the support of shoes (with glue filler). When I checked with on him tonight he was already moving a bit better, though he is on bute.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Monday, Sep 28, 2009 - 7:31 pm:
Marie Anne,
I hate to add insult to injury but unless there is absolutely no infection within the wall separations, you are going to have a problem with his feet because of the glue. Been there and done that.
A better solution would have been to Equicast his feet and glue the shoes on over the Equicast, if he needed shoes at all.
The glue holds the infection in the foot by locking it up in there and results in abcesses and more wall separation.
Do not be surprised if after a few days or a week, he is not sorer than he was before you started.
Ok, my vote would have been to leave him barefoot and boot him as necessary. There are only two ways you are going to get rid of the wall separations totally. One is by resecting his feet. The other is by getting rid of all the nailholes and allowing his feet to grow out and keeping him level and balanced.
IMO the wall separations are usually due to flare and if you keep the flare under control, the wall separations go away as well. But you need someone that understands what a good trim is and how to do one and that is extremely hard to find.
Rachelle
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New Member:
marieanh
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Posted on Monday, Sep 28, 2009 - 8:17 pm:
I guess my problem with the infection theory is that the separation is so uniform - no pockets, just 1/2 inch all around. We have resected to where there is a good junction. If you look at the beginning of this post we resected alot on the front 1 year 1/2 ago, treated religiously but have never been able to get rid of the last 1/2 inch of separation.
I am not sure what the difference between glue then equicast or equiscast then glue would be re any infection, but did discuss this with the farrier and he felt that that the give in the glue would be better. We did treat for infection before the shoes were applied. The wall was resected above any nail holes.
His feet do grow fast, no doubt, but no real flare. His toe grows much faster.
Barefoot really is not an option-the walls just break off,- I have tried with boots on the back but he just ends up walking on his soles.
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Member:
marieanh
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Posted on Monday, Sep 28, 2009 - 8:36 pm:
I guess my problem with the infection theory is that the separation is so uniform - no pockets, just 1/2 inch all around. We have resected to where there is a good junction. If you look at the beginning of this post we resected alot on the front 1 year 1/2 ago, treated religiously but have never been able to get rid of the last 1/2 inch of separation.
I am not sure what the difference between glue then equicast or equiscast then glue would be re any infection, but did discuss this with the farrier and he felt that that the give in the glue would be better. We did treat for infection before the shoes were applied. The wall was resected above any nail holes.
His feet do grow fast, no doubt, but no real flare. His toe grows much faster.
Barefoot really is not an option-the walls just break off,- I have tried with boots on the back but he just ends up walking on his soles.
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Member:
marieanh
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Posted on Monday, Sep 28, 2009 - 8:39 pm:
here is a sole shot of the right front taken last week, after he threw the shoe but before reshod
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Member:
marieanh
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Posted on Monday, Sep 28, 2009 - 8:49 pm:
right front take from the side
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Member:
marieanh
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Posted on Monday, Sep 28, 2009 - 9:00 pm:
right front other side
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Member:
marieanh
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Posted on Monday, Sep 28, 2009 - 9:13 pm:
left front-5 weeks after last reset
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Member:
marieanh
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Posted on Monday, Sep 28, 2009 - 9:14 pm:
robie not very good pic
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Monday, Sep 28, 2009 - 9:19 pm:
This is a test for all you natural barefoot people out there. Can anyone tell me what they see in both of these pictures? And then tell Marie Anne why her horses walls keep breaking off and why he winds up walking on his soles. Hint-Look at the difference from one side to the other in the first picture.
Marie Anne is the second picture the remnants of the resection, or is this what happens to your horses feet all the time? Now I am definitely sure I would not put shoes on this horse. This horse needs to be rehabbed to get his feet healthy again, you might also want to look into his nutrition to make sure he has enough biotin in his ration.
Ok I'll get off my soap box now.
Rachelle
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Member:
marieanh
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Posted on Monday, Sep 28, 2009 - 9:26 pm:
He's on a hoof supplement, with biotin, has been for 2 years. All pics are within last week, the right after he pulled the shoe.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Sep 28, 2009 - 9:55 pm:
Well not a hoof expert, but it reminds me of what Hanks hoof looked like when they were flared and the wall left to long... then the nail holes broke out and it looked very similar to Maries.
The first pic shows a very uneven hoof way wider on one side, The last pic it looks like the toe is VERY long, and the shoe APPEARS to be too short.
Here is a picture of Hanks hoof in the process of looking like Maries horse...this was a back hoof. You can see the long wall/toe at the front is going to follow and it did.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 29, 2009 - 6:31 am:
Marie Anne,
I'd like to take a step back and Welcome you to HA and apologize for coming on so strong. We on HA are here to help, all of us including Dr. O and many of us have gone through the same problems you have and come out of them on the other side with a lot better understanding of the problems and solutions to we what originally thought were insurmountable problems.
Your horses problems are not insurmountable, but they will take time to fix and it may take a very big change in the way you look at and do certain things with your horse including the way you look at taking care of his feet.
I know you are new and probably have not had a chance to read some of the articles and discussions on this board, but you should so that you can understand the underlying cause of your horses poor feet, understand why putting shoes on him may not be the right answer now and may be continuing the problem you are trying so hard to fix. I would recommend on top of Dr. O's article. DianE's discussion posts on her horse Hank Hoof Critique and Hoof Critique 2. See what her attitude was and what it is now as far as being barefoot goes. Then you need to understand why farriers and vets are sometimes not the best judge of what is right for your horse, you are.
But this all takes time and patience and you may have to give up riding for a while to make it happen.
Again, I apologize, I sometimes get a bit too passionate about other peoples horses, but I do love it when these same folks see the light.
Rachelle
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 29, 2009 - 8:20 am:
Marie, sometime you have to look at your horses hooves critically, after I had so many problems with Hanks hooves I knew something had to change. It took 4 years, getting rid of a farrier (not saying you should do this) and getting serious about Hanks hooves. I am not quite as passionate as Rachelle about bare foot, but believe it is the best way if at all possible. Hank had hooves that looked very similar to your horses, to treat his WLD I did remove his shoes and he was very very ouchy. I did treat it by digging it out and applying thrush buster or Tomorrow. It got better and we put his shoes back on with sav-a- hoof gel under the shoe. Next time we pulled his shoes it was much improved, and he has been bare foot since. His WLD or thrush in his WL was bad and contributed to his poor hoof wall, which led to hooves that looked like you horses. As I mentioned above the shoe had to be routed out to relieve the pressure on the sole and we had to use a wide web shoe for more support.
Rachelle or Dr.O. how would you go about making this horse comfortable without shoes when he is basically walking on his soles? FME boots contribute to the thrush/WLD as do shoes, but what's a person to do???
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 29, 2009 - 9:25 am:
I am late coming into this discussion. And let me warn you, I am very passionate about barefoot hoofs! I agree with Rachelle in everything she's posted about hoofs. I only have 2 1/2 years experience trimming my 4 horses, so I am not an expert by any means, and I cannot always explain what I see needs to change, but I can see that some things need changing.
I see a long toe for example. I see uneveness side to side trimming. See how his front feet are under him?
The pink line is the hoof he wants to grow..the yellow line, is how the angle of the hoof should look.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 29, 2009 - 9:41 am:
My line isn't the best, but I think he is standing under himself. In fact, I think he is standing better in the picture from a year ago. A line DrOpped through his cannon bone should fall just behind his heels if memory serves me...if I am off, I hope someone corrects me.
He's nice looking horse! I'd loose the shoes, let the nail holes grow out, and keep gently touching up his hoofs every week or two..just beveling, and lightly backing the toe up. It will take time to grow a good hoof in, but IMHO, as long as you keep putting shoes on, the good hoof growth can't happen.
Keep beveling the hoof wall, especially at the toe, and don't panic if he's ouchy..it will take time.
Read all you can about barefoof hoofs, beveling, hoof function, flares; this is very fixable I think.
Best of luck to you and Robie.
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Member:
marieanh
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 29, 2009 - 9:46 am:
I agree the toe on the left is long: this was 5 weeks after the last trim, and when the farrier came out yesterday he took alot off the toe. He comes to the barn every three weeks, so we have agreed that he will check Robie every three weeks, rather than the 6 week cycle we had been on. As noted above, his feet grow fast.
Diane has summed up what I have been trying to express-without shoes I have a lame (not just ouchy)horse with walls that break off. With shoes, I have a sound horse with shelly walls. When he threw the shoe last Friday, I cleaned up the wall as best I could to prevent if from further breaking off, I immediately put on a boot with a pad, but he became increasing sore, even in the stall with bedding.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 29, 2009 - 10:03 am:
Diane,
I would put him someplace where he is comfortable, I would not ride him. I would take care of his feet daily. I would boot him only if he had to walk someplace that might bother his feet. I would make sure that where ever he was he was as close to his feed, water and hay so he would not have to move around much until he was more comfortable. I would take him off of any pain relieving medication so I could get a true idea on just how bad he was and I would find someone that really understood what this horse is trying to communicate with his feet. It may even mean taking over your horses trimming yourself (As many of us have done). It means no big changes just subtle little ones on a more regular basis ( which in the long run means much less expense) which is something we are all looking to get away from ( the expenses).
Also, as some of you know, my problem is not with shoes its with the nails and to answer Marie Anne's question about why the equicast first( Although I would prefer Perfect Hoofwear, instead) because no glue would get into the wall separations and the foot would be able to grow down on its own) but this is assuming you can get a balanced trim on this horse and from the pictures it does not look the your farrier can do this. It requires more than just a field trim, and a leveled off hoof wall on which to place the shoe. It needs some finesse and when you have shoes on you just can't get the detail needed to fix the foot whereas with barefoot you can.
It will only be then that your horse can fix himself but first we need to stop interfering with natures way of doing things and yes, we will have to deal with some difficult and ouchie days, stop blaming barefoot as the reason the horse is sore because it seems to me that over time horses have more sore days in shoes due to lack of being level and balanced than they do when they are barefoot.
Rachelle
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 29, 2009 - 11:19 am:
As Rachelle and Angie have noted above there is moderate to severe distortion in the hoof capsule. The sole of the hoof shows signs of long term weight imbalance (overloaded on the wider side) and the profile of the wall of the toe shows flaring distally from just below the coronet. What are the veterinarians and farriers explanations for these changes? Is there a conformational reason for the lateral imbalance. I would like to see conformation shots of the legs taken from the front.
These changes indicate the coffin bone has shifted and rotated within the hoof capsule. I think the quickest way back to long term soundness would be a good set of radiographs to determine where the coffin bone is in relation to the hoof capsule. Then trimming and rebuilding this foot around the coffin bone so that it can grow out normally. These changes have been going on a long time and it is going to take a while to get back a healthy hoof capsule.
DrO
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Member:
snyderpm
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 29, 2009 - 11:28 am:
I just, for the first time, read this discussion and looked at the photo's of your poor horses feet. It is all bad, the trimming, shoeing, etc. The long toe is minor compared to him being so short shod. He needs another inch of shoe to support the back of his foot, and that is just for starters. His foot is so out of balance. He would be much better off barefoot in the stall and boots outside. You can get the Old Mac G2's or Simple boots and put pads in them. Easycare, who owns Old Mac has pads that you can cut to fit for about six dollars and Simple Boot has a gel pad that is good. You need two pair of boots so you can always have a dry pair to turn him out in. More important is you need good help with your horse. Go to www.horseshoes.com and post your horses photos there and tell them your story. Some of the best farriers in the world post there, and will be glad to help you and hopefully put you in contact with a good farrier in your state. There are also vet/farriers, like Dr. Myers, and Dr. O'Grady who post regularly at that board, and they will be glad to help you with your horse. There is no reason your horse should continue to have the feet he has, if you are caring for him the way you say you are.
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Member:
marieanh
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 29, 2009 - 11:45 am:
Thank you everyone that has responded.
I will post a conformation shot from the front this evening.
Would the equicast interfere with a radiograph? The web site describes it as a poly-cloth and resin. Radiographs were taken two years ago showed only minimal change in the right front.
Unfortunately, none of the vets who have examined this horse in the last year have commented on, let alone offered an explanation for the distortion that you have noted. Ditto the fariers.
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Member:
marieanh
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 29, 2009 - 11:53 am:
"There is no reason your horse should continue to have the feet he has, if you are caring for him the way you say you are"
I'm sorry-I posted here for advice. I think this comment was unnecessary and a little offensive.
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 29, 2009 - 12:28 pm:
Marie Anne
You have a beautiful horse. You obviously care for him. And I am glad you came here for help.
I am amazed by how much it sounds like Hanks Hoof problem. Which Diane has been fighting for along time...I wish you and your Robie the best and hope that you find a new farrier/vet! That would be my first step...get a set of radiographs or copies of the old ones(if they arent too old) and find a different vet and farrier.
Did I mention...find a new vet and farrier? <grin>
A warm welcome to HA and thanks for posting your horses problems
Leslie
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Member:
snyderpm
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 29, 2009 - 12:48 pm:
Marie, My comment was not meant to offend you, it was mostly about the farrier and vet. Good luck
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Member:
marieanh
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 29, 2009 - 1:13 pm:
Thank you Patricia. I guess I was being overly sensitive.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 29, 2009 - 2:42 pm:
Marie,
How can I best say this? Your horse had some prior problems, and IMO, some of the solutions have been bad band-aides. It took about a year for the hoof wall to grow out with the toe creeping forward to get the angle it has now. The toe going forward brought the heel forward.
How do I know this? I caused the same thing to happen with at least 6 of the 16 hoofs I trim! I have an excuse: I am Self taught! Learning from books, websites, and one long distance helper. And HA of course!
But you have been paying some one to do your horses hoofs...trimming AND shoeing...that is like a triple whammy! Bad trim, shoes, wrong, for the reasons listed above, and the hoof form has been getting worse, not better.
I say this so you don't blame yourself. You are trusting experts...but, as I found, the whole hoof care/trimming/maintenance thing is simple..IF you understand what is normal, what is not, what changes are taking place, how tweaking one area affects another area,...and on & on it goes.
I've had good farriers, and some not so good ones. Some who will be glad to explain to you the hows & whys, others will just do what they've always done, and/or what they think the horse owner wants.
I hope I haven't made you feel like crying and pulling your hair out! (I do know the feeling!) Please be assured, your horse can grow a good hoof..a better hoof than he ever had before.
I wish you luck in your journey in what works best for you and Robie.
We are here for you, keep posting pictures with your questions.
A few suggestions for pictures; (many good tips on Diane's discussions)
SIde view, you have.
Front,
Pictures taken at ground level to check for levelness, from front, and heels.
A good picture of each hoof from the heel to the toe, to check for levelness.
A picture with rasp laying across the bottom of the hoof at the apex of the frog.
Measurements, length and width too.
Collaterol Groove depth, at the heels and front.
I mark each hoof on the bottom with the initial of the horse, at the toe, and then LF, RF, RH, LH.
Start keeping records. I have 100's of pictures on my computer, it helps keep my sanity when I start 2nd guessing myself. I should keep a notebook too, but I just make notes on the calendar in the barn.
Examples:
Trim date:
bars needed work, back toe, just touched up bevel, frog was raggy, don't take off under toe, was a tad ouchy after trim, took off like a rocket after trim, no pain.
O.k., all typed out!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 29, 2009 - 3:00 pm:
Marie, sometimes when seeking help it just seems to come off wrong. The good people on here are very passionate about helping and don't like to see your horse suffer. We know you take good care of your horse or you wouldn't be asking questions and concerned. When I first started asking questions about Hanks hooves, it really made me realize how horrible they were 4 years ago! we have been in and out of shoes and my personal opinion was he needed them at the time. His hoof has changed sooo much over the last year, we are barefoot again and he is doing very well. I did switch farriers and vets about 2 years ago and that is when the slow improvement started. It doesn't happen overnight, Hank went through some pretty bad ouchy periods. I kept him barefoot as long as I could so we could treat his WL.
I do agree with Rachelle that nail holes in that foot doesn't appear to be a very good idea. Hank has been Shod 3 times in the last 2 years for about 18 weeks total. We did the rest bare foot. The reason I had him shod more than anything was because he was prone to bruising his thin soles. That seems to have disappeared with his better hoof form.
Did you see my collage over the last 2 years of his hooves in my thread? If you have questions...even if they seem stupid ask! The good people here are very good about explaining and it can only help your horse..BTW he is beautiful!
Don't get offended, remember you are trying to help your horse and there can be many different opinions on how to do it...educate yourself by reading the articles and asking questions...that way you can be your horses advocate....you may be surprised what comes of it
Your horses hooves are a mess, but fixable, I was trying to be nice, but I would be looking for a different farrier/vet too OR do it yourself.
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Member:
dustee
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 29, 2009 - 3:57 pm:
It is, as many of us know, so terribly frustrating to invest hours a day on our horses, and not seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. We individually just do not know all the answers. We try and try and keep hitting our heads against the wall. We adore our horses and become terrified for them because we can't even find the answers. We are afraid because we don't even know if we are doing the right thing for them. If someone could say - "do this - and it will be all right"....we will gladly do it. But we are blindly trying one thing - learning - trying another - and are scared that we will ruin it. I am reading every article on feet - every one - and am trying to do the right thing for my horse. We end up getting extremely sensitive about what we are doing - because we are in our car, going to the farm, trying not to cry...
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Member:
marieanh
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 29, 2009 - 4:17 pm:
Ok, here are the front pics, one before the farrier was here yesterday, and one after. the others are pics of the front and the rear after the farrier was here.
I spoke to a vet today (he saw Robie early last week, after he threw the shoe and when he was sore to see if there was an abscess) re x-rays, he did really think it was necessary but I guess I'll insist. He did not think the equicast would interfere with x rays.
For what it is worth, when I went out today to take the pics he was moving much better.
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 29, 2009 - 4:34 pm:
So true, Dustylin, so true! If it were only so easy to find the right farrier and vet team, none of us would ever have foot trouble.
Marie, let me just say that Robie is one of the most beautiful Saddlebreds I have ever seen! And I am a huge fan of the breed. You obviously take excellent care of him.
I hope you find the key to getting his feet back on track. Take a deep breath, and in a quiet moment, go back and read what people have said here. Check the archives with particular attention to barefoot trims. You will find some common threads that many are saying in different ways, and it will help you to find direction.
I can second (third? fourth?) the opinion that a good set of boots and pads will prove invaluable during Robie's rehab. Best of luck to you and that gorgeous guy!
Erika
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 29, 2009 - 4:37 pm:
Hey, I guess we cross-posted, Marie. You are fast on the photos. Good for you!
To me it looks so much better already with the equicast--if that's what it is.
Erika
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 29, 2009 - 4:56 pm:
Is it me or does the whole right hoof (RF)seem out of align with his leg. Also, marie, does his Rf have a scar on it?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 29, 2009 - 5:46 pm:
Leslie it does look like the right hoof is distorted to the outside and has a buldge on the outside hoof wall. What would cause this?
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 29, 2009 - 5:51 pm:
Yikes, what is going on with that right front? Can you imagine what the inside of his hoof & leg must look like?
I am going to try and add a link or 2 here for you to read later...no time right now.
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Member:
marieanh
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 29, 2009 - 5:52 pm:
I have reread all your posts-again thank you so much.
Dr. O's indicated that he thought the hoof was overloaded on the wider side-this is the outside of the hoof, but when I look at the pictures from the front I would have thought the inside bore more weight. Do I have this backward?
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 29, 2009 - 6:29 pm:
Dustylyn, Boy, do you have that right! Either that or we lay awake at night trying to figure it out, or spend hours on the computer and reading magazine articles. If it's not feet, it's something else. If you have horses long enough, there will be something that will frustrate and trouble you ...if not with the horse, then with the feed, the tack, the trainer, etc, etc.
Uh, tell me, just why is it we do this??? Oh yeah, they have those big warm eyes, soft breath, and when everything is finally right there is nothing in the world like the feeling you get from being one with your horse!
Hang in there, Marie!
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 29, 2009 - 6:31 pm:
Well said dustylin!
I'm here at HA because I need help and info. Sometimes I hesitate to post what I figure is a dumb question. I don't want to be a nuisance or an idiot...
I have had three farriers in 16 months. The second one was top notch. Can't say enough good about his skills, except, he won't show up reliably. So what good is that? We damage the progress we made by him not showing up... which is why your comment rang so true to me...I'd do whatever I needed to do if someone could give me the magic answer!
Anyway, thanks marie for posting and including pix. It helps everyone and so does the discussion.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 29, 2009 - 6:36 pm:
Marie, there has been a lot of advice here so I'm not going to say much. I wanted to only say that if you have a good vet who can do digital x-rays of your horse's feet they will help you a lot. If he knows a good farrier and the two of them can work together, all the better; if not, the vet can make copie of the x-rays, either pictures of DVD, and using them will help. For her to be off balance in so many ways and to have the hoof wall breaking down as it is, I'd want to see what the inside of her foot is doing before I did much more to her. The x-rays will really help the farrier slowly get her in alignment and balanced. It can't be done overnight, but I've seen feet this bad or worse turn out looking really good and with a "new" horse as a result.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 29, 2009 - 6:54 pm:
Marie,
Dr. O is right the outside is the high side of the foot which needs to be trimmed down. It is taking the brunt of the weight loading because by being longer it has more surface area that hits the ground. To me it looks like your horse is constantly being trimmed more on the inside than the outside. I think this is also what is making him look so narrow chested and makes his legs look like they are coming in at the knees and bending the wrong way from the knees down.
When a horse is trying to get away from something thats bothering him, he shifts his weight away from what hurts. So for example when a horse is lame in the left front, he will nod onto the right front ( in general). A lot of people misdiagnose this and think he's lame on the right front but what he's really doing is loading the good leg to get away from the pain on the other leg. So it goes for feet too.
The outside of your horses foot is being stimulated to grow because your horse is compensating for whatever problems are going on in his feet. He needs to be fixed slowly by taking off a little of the outside at a time and he needs to be balanced and level.
He may be more comfortable as you have him now, but his real problems are not being corrected and won't be until his feet are properly 'fixed'.
When and if they are, you will notice his chest will be wider and his legs will look like they are coming down from the right place and he will be a whole lot more comfortable. In fact, his attitude might change so much that you won't believe its the same horse.
Then, you will come back to this discussion and say, "why didn't I do this a long time ago".
All of us on this board who are proponents of being barefoot (or in my case nailless) have been or are still going down the same road as you are, we are all still learning and trying to understand all the different problems and solutions to make our horses happy and healthy. what I am trying to say is just because your horse seems more comfortable don't let that blind you to finding the solutions that will finally fix his feet for good.
Rachelle
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Member:
marieanh
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 29, 2009 - 7:13 pm:
Ok, this is my last post for tonight:
Rachelle,
Yes, I agree I need to get to the bottom of it, and will get x rays as a start
Do you mean you think he is shifting to the outside to avoid the inside? or vice versa?
Thanks for all the encouragement-I certainly needed it.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 29, 2009 - 7:49 pm:
Marie,
You said
"Do you mean you think he is shifting to the outside to avoid the inside"( yes, in a way)and I think he is being forced to do this by the way he is being trimmed and it is causing problems not only in his feet but elsewhere up the musco-skeletal line in his body. So, its a big vicious circle, that if it does not get corrected will bring on many more problems.
Rachelle
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 29, 2009 - 9:09 pm:
A link with helpful tips on mapping the hoof.
https://www.thenakedhoof.com.au/html/mappingthefoot.htm
Jamie Jackson's Hoof Meter Reader is a nice little tool to measure angles and toe length.
https://www.star-ridge.com/page17.html
Marie,
It's overwhelming...isn't it? Baby steps, baby, baby steps.
And to quote Pete Ramey: "Less is More" Probably not his quote, it applies to many things in life, but he applies it to trimming.
One last thought from me tonight: I learned so much from Pete's DVD set called "under the Horse" it is expensive...$250.00 for over 10 hours of instruction, but I grasped so much that I couldn't understand from reading & from studying pictures for 2 years.
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 29, 2009 - 10:48 pm:
Can't really add much to this discussion except kudos to you for recognizing that this horse is in trouble and trying to find solutions. The other thing I'd like to add is encouragement to FIRE that farrier! I know how hard that is to do, but he's a very large part of the problem in my opinion. Those new shoes look too small IMO. Imagine how much it hurts to wear shoes too small. Now imagine having to wear them 24/7 and be standing most of that time? I really blame him because you have put your trust in him as a professional and he has let you down and harmed your horse in the process. I could be wrong or course. If you need help in approaching or phrasing the firing issue, as you probably know by now, we're pretty free with out advise!! Again, thanks for being an advocate for this lovely horse. Julie
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Member:
marieanh
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 30, 2009 - 3:28 pm:
Dr. O,
1. I am assuming you are recommending xray of both front hoofs from the side and the front. Should I request any additional views?
2. Do you agree that if I decide to remove his shoes that I should not use any pain killer (bute?) if he is sore?
3. Would there be a problem using boots with pads during turnout (assuming I can find some that stay on)? He does not do well if confined to his stall.
4. He is now walking sound-I know Rachelle and others feel strongly that I should not let this fool me, and I do intend to move forward with x-rays-but is it really irrelevant to a diagnosis/or formulating a plan of treatment? I would like to be able to address this with the vet who will take the x rays. (He has shoes glued on the front, no nails).
I apologize for the number of questions-I am trying to get straight in my head on how to proceed, and would like to have some sort of game plan before I move forward.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 30, 2009 - 4:38 pm:
Marie,
I know you addressed DrO, yet I am going to go out on a limb and say I don't see what the extra added expense of having x-rays done will tell you. We can SEE the imbalances, and the x-rays will verify those to some extent, but I can't figure how that will change the course of treatment needed to bring the hoofs in balance.
If I were in your shoes, and did not want to trim myself, I would invest the money in
A. A well seasoned barefoot trimmer who can show you creditionals, and references.
B. Good boots or some kind of protection other than nail on shoes.
I believe as otheres do, barefoot is good, boots needed some times, movement is a must.
And perhaps bi-weekly tweaks.
DrO,
If i may ask for future reference, why you feel x-rays are needed? What would you see that would warrent special treatment vs treatment without having x-rays?
Not trying to over step any boundaries here, just don't see what/why?
P.s., this thread is so long, I am getting the delayed typing again. So forgive mispellings, scattered thoughts...like typing blind!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 30, 2009 - 4:53 pm:
OH good someone else can have a part 2
Angie I'm guessing, but the dish in the front would suggest the CB has moved. I think when you are dealing with rotation or hoof wall distortion it helps to know where the coffin bone is so you can begin "building the hoof wall around the CB" to get rid of the distortion and get it in proper alignment.. Like Hanks toe dish, that was actually caused by the founder and rotation. It took us 2 years to get rid of that distortion, and it's not always an easy job...
In Maries pictures where you showed her where the hoof Wants to grow on top, and the distortion below it, normally would suggest something is going on with the CB, possibly rotation.
That's what I think anyway
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 30, 2009 - 5:17 pm:
Speaking as an extreme novice...I had digital X-Rays taken when Diva Horse was lame in the front in January. For peace of mind. My mind.
1st vet was very suspicious of founder--and he is an equine, large animal vet, has horses, etc. However, my gut just told me it wasn't founder. Why I don't know. So I asked him what the most aggressive course of action would be rather than the wait and see. (She wasn't down or off feed or off water or looking distressed really, just stiff legged lame in the front.) He referred me to the vet at PU for X-Rays. Lucky for me the Purdue University Large Animal Clinic is 30 min away and they make farm calls. And they have a brand new $50K digital portable X-Ray--courtesy of the taxpayers of Indiana.
I wanted to know if there was any rotation sooner than later. I got great pix burnt to a dvd which I could then show my farrier--who also works with the PU Clinic. Nothing wrong with her feet but bad bruising on the sole of both toes. ! I believe it was ice ball related and perhaps me being too aggressive cleaning snow/mud/ice?
Anyway marie, if you can afford it at all, try to get the Xrays so the pros can see what is going on in those feet. That's my 2 cents from a "OMG, wish I knew what to do for my horse, what did I do wrong that my baby is lame--type person..." I felt awful. I rely heavily on my farrier/vet because I am just not that knowledgeable and I don't want to harm my horse from ignorance. I can relate Sara to your "lying awake at night" comment!
It didn't cost me extra to have several pix of each foot. The farm call and x-ray was a set cost. It only takes a few minutes. They burnt the dvd in a few minutes on their laptop and I could have it on the spot. It was $250 I think for the travel, farm call, XRays, injection, and I also had her Coggins done. I felt it was $ well spent. Of course I don't know what you have close...
Good luck. Thinking of you.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 30, 2009 - 7:03 pm:
Diane, Vicki, Thank you for adding your experiences. It helped me to see why x-rays would be a good idea.
Marie, Follow your gut instinct, you know your horse best.
I am not feeling the best, and I am going to be quiet now!
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Member:
marieanh
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 30, 2009 - 9:14 pm:
Angie, I hope you feel better soon.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 30, 2009 - 9:41 pm:
Thank you, Marie. Just had chicken noodle soup, off to bed now. Cough, sniffle,
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 1, 2009 - 12:16 am:
Marie, I see from your profile you are in Indiana! Any chance you are close to West Lafayette and PU?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 1, 2009 - 9:29 am:
Marie, taking your questions in order:
1) Besides a frontal and lateral view with the center of the beam carefully aligned with the solar surface of the coffin bone but also illuminating the coffin and pastern joint. I would suggest a navicular and coffin bone shot.
2) This is a judgement call I cannot make without examining the horse. The deciding factor is whether after examining the horses sole whether I would believe such pain relief could lead to further damage. I have seen this happen.
3) See number two, the same question applies. In general a good fitting boot will help protect a thin sole.
4) I am not sure I understand your last question. Are you asking if, "is being sound irrelevant to the diagnosis and treatment?"? From your horses history do you think continued Absolutely not being sound rules out active disease processes.
Angie your question suggests several unsupported assumptions:
1) You assume the only possible causes for the horses chronic lameness is foot imbalance. I don't see where arthritis, inflammatory diseases of the coffin and navicular bone are ruled out above and fore knowledge may greatly change your plans.
2) You assume there are no distortions to the coffin and pastern joint articulations that do not have to be accounted for when determining proper lateral foot balance. This is a common problem and even suggested in some of your frontal shots above that show unusual leg rotation.
3) You assume you know what the solar angle and the tip of the coffin bone is. Though guesses can be made, I have often been surprised. Recently a member got a chronically foot sore horse well. In that case the turning point was a set of radiographs that showed more remarkable rotation than you would have suspected looking at the foot. Returning that coffin bone to a more normal position, which was greatly aided by corrective shoeing early on, with respect to the ground was key to getting that horse well and greatly assisted with those radiographs. Partly because of that early work the horse is now able to go barefoot.
DrO
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Member:
marieanh
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 1, 2009 - 1:26 pm:
Dr. O,
I'll try and rephrase my last question.
Robie has been sound in shoes (but still has wall separation as noted-and what I now understand is a distortion in the hoof capsule). When he threw the shoe on the right front 13 days ago, he was markedly lame on that foot. The farrier has glued shoes on the front and wrapped with equicast. He is now walking sound. What, if any, conclusions can be reasonably drawn from those facts? (now guess what I do for a living )
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 1, 2009 - 1:59 pm:
Marie I am not Dr.O. I can relate my experience with Hank to you tho.
What you have done by gluing a shoe on and applying equicast is protect the sole, which from your pictures I would guess it needs protecting In turn this makes him more comfortable. The exact reason I used shoes and equi pak on Hank for awhile. x-rays showed he had an incredibily thin soles, and at that time my vet did not think he was a bare foot candidate...nor did I His coffin bone was pointed down and very close to his sole. That is why x-rays will tell you a lot at this point. So IMHO the glue on shoes and the equicast + x-rays is your launching pad to get your horse going in the right direction. You will hear quite a few differing opinions on whether bare foot or using theraputic shoeing is the way to help your horse and sometimes it's a judgement call or how dedicated you are. I did keep Hank in Old mac's with the comfort pads quite a bit, time constraints took over, his WL was getting worse from the moisture, so I had him shod with the ww shoe (routed out)...that is very important! with the equi pak CS...which helped with thrush and his rotting WL until he was comfortable, then went to the WW shoe with no equi pak. I played with barefoot quite a bit in between. (he is always bare foot in the winter mos., but he did get very sore the first 2 winters when the ground was hard. He wouldn't come out of the bedded lean-to, would just stand there and nicker to me for his food...it really was heart breaking. He ended up with terribly bruised soles, which set us back quite a bit.
As Dr.O. said x-rays are very important to see what's going on inside, for now he is comfortable because you were concerned. Now you need to get to the root of the cause so he can begin treatment so this quits happening
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 1, 2009 - 2:52 pm:
Diane,
I have a little bit different perspective from not being right on top ( outside observer) of the situation with Hank. It seems to me that once his environment was corrected, the problems with his feet went away. This is not to say that what you did with his feet was wrong and they most definitely needed work to get corrected. You used to say that his being barefoot was the route of all his evils and he couldn't possibly go barefoot and work at the same time now you recognize that it was the way he was being trimmed and his environment that was the problem, not the barefoot part.
So, maybe we can short circuit the learning curve here with Marie and have her look at her horses environment with enlightened eyes because while I think this is a hoof problem that is certainly fixable, I think there are other things involved environmentally that can be changed so both things are being addressed at the same time (sort of what you did with Hank).
Marie, are you a researcher or a scientist?
Rachelle
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 1, 2009 - 4:57 pm:
Now Rachelle I never said barefoot was the root of all his evils. I said he always got very sore bare foot, and to get to barefoot we needed the shoes to correct and protect his pathologies (which I still believe).
You ARE very correct about once I got his environment, his fat, diet, his trim ect corrected things were on the upswing, but the damage had already been done, leaving very pathological hooves.
I know we have discussed this before, and you make good sense...VERY good sense, I just don't believe shoes are a terrible thing when needed. I don't have a farrier that is skilled enough to do glue ons ect. but the end result has been good none the less. Persistance, educating myself, and HA(mostly) is what got Hank where he is now especially the de-rotation article which does suggest shoes. After the de-rotation you guys helped me immensly.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 1, 2009 - 6:47 pm:
Diane,
Remember what I said about shoes, I do not have a problem with shoes ( I have a problem with nailed on shoes)especially on terrible feet. Thats why I've spent so much time, money and effort trying to get away from the nails and trying to find a solution that keeps my HPT trim from one shoeing to the next. I have found that solution for myself and now I have a horse that has no nails in her feet ( just her Hoofwear), has the right trim for her and has shoes to deal with the abrasive track.
As far as having a farrier that has the skills to do glue ons, my trimmer did not have those skills either when he started working for me. He learned hands on, on my horses and others and he learned from other farriers the techniques to do them correctly. He educated himself because he understood that it was best for him to have a large repertoire of different things so that he could use all the appropriate shoeing/trimming/glueing techniques for all the different disciplines of riding and racing he has in his business portfolio.
I agree that shoes are sometimes necessary, just get rid of those darn nails and let the foot move the way it wants to ( except in the case of a fracture) and let it be level and balanced when doing it.
I think Marie would have gotten the same result ( her horse moving soundly), had she just done the equicast and forgotten about the shoes, she could have medicated under the equicasts and if needed put a little extra equicast on to raise the horse off the ground a little more.
When I look at her horses picture with the equicasts over the shoes there looks to be too much bulk on the toe ( and probably around the whole foot) which makes for very difficult breakover. He may be comfortable walking, but I am not sure about how much more she can do with him the way he is without asking for more problems.
Rachelle
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 1, 2009 - 7:09 pm:
Rachelle I think we pretty much agree and if shoes can be put on with out nails all the better!
I see what you mean about the added bulk at the toe of Robie, but I think Marie wanted to get her horse comfortable and go from there and I can't say as I blame her. These type of hooves can start a free fall of other problems if not protected. It may not be right but it is a start.
Marie your x-rays will hopefully show you where to go from here with Robie, just double check that it is a good way to go. My vet or farrier never get away from here without a 100 what are you doing and why? If it doesn't make sense to me I double check to make sure it makes sense. That practice has saved me more than once from a few mistakes.
Keep us updated on Robie, I hope he continues to improve and you can get to the bottom of his problems
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Member:
marieanh
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 1, 2009 - 8:09 pm:
Rachelle,
I was wondering myself about the equicast alone-this is something to consider.
At the moment I am glad he is comfortable enough for turnout-he is a much happier animal when he gets to play with his buddies. , I don't plan on doing anything else with him until I get xrays, hopefully next week-but will have to find time I can trailer him to the clinic (I am working on the assumption that this will be preferable to having someone use a portable machine, but I could be wrong). I just hope we can get a clear enough idea without having to remove the equicast/shoes. ( and the news isn't really awful).
Diane, I have skimmed most of your prior posts-to me it seems that the corrective shoeing was important to your success with Hank. I have already learned a great deal from your story-thank you. This really is a wonderful resource.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 1, 2009 - 8:49 pm:
MArie,
Actually, if you can find a vet that has a portable digital ( very important) x-ray machine that can come to where your horse is. It will save you a lot of time. They can burn the images onto a disk and you will have them for posterity.
The only thing is I know my vets' prefer to have the metal shoes off, so you might want to ask before they come out or you ship to them. I know you probably just spent a small fortune on putting the shoes and equicast on this horse, but maybe in the long run it would be good to get them off and only put back the equicasts which is fairly easy to do yourself. It just wraps on like vetwrap. Maybe if you can find a good trimmer, he'd be able to help you with it.
Rachelle
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Oct 2, 2009 - 6:47 am:
Hello marie,
I am afraid the history you present is not diagnostic. There could be half a dozen reasons why an incident involving loss of a shoe could cause a temporary lameness. Many horses that loose a shoe will be gimpy because of the way a foot is trimmed for a shoe. However an exam of the lame foot should have allowed the veterinarian make a good stab at a diagnosis.
Good field radiographs will be fine. For the conformation shots shoes on is fine but for the coffin bone and navicular shots shoes often get in the way.
DrO
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Oct 2, 2009 - 8:21 am:
DrO,
Thank you for the detailed answer on x-rays.
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Member:
marieanh
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Posted on Friday, Oct 2, 2009 - 9:56 am:
I have an appointment for the x rays on Monday. When I get the results I'll start a new thread since this is getting a bit long.
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Member:
marieanh
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Posted on Monday, Oct 5, 2009 - 12:37 pm:
I have started a new thread as this has gotten a bit long. See Help-White line and lameness (part 2).
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