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New Member:
Astbury

Posted on Thursday, Jan 6, 2005 - 4:01 pm:

Can anyone help?

My 16hh Irish Thoroughbred eventer was diagnosed with lymphangitis one week ago today. I had been schooling him in the menage - flat work and jumping - totally sound and fine and some 15 minutes after he was back in his stable I found him totally lame. Obviously very lame in off hind. I called the vet and diagnosis was inconclusive. He thought it might be azoturia. Gave Padraig corticosteroids and took bloods. REsults were negative. Following morning, Padraigs offhind leg was huge. I called another vet out, who diagnosed lymphangitis. He put Pad. on antibiotics (nora...?) and told me to walk him gently out 5 - 6 times a day for 15 minutes to get swelling down. Also a daily sachet of bute. All went well for three days and on the third day when I was walking him out I stopped to let him graze and noticed his off foreleg was shaking, shortly afterwards, all legs started shaking and by the time I got him back to his stable his neck was shaking also. Within half an hour it passed.

I called the vet again. Pad. was symptom free when vet arrived and the only conclusion was that perhaps he had knocked the sore around of the inner side of the off gaskin and a further steroid injection was given.

All was fine again. Pad's leg went down. Perfectly sound. I started riding him again - gentle walking exercise yesterday. Turned him out for an hour, yesterday pm with new Sportabac turnout socks (he had a cracked heel on affected leg which may have precipitated the lymphangitis). He had a good run around and rolled. Came back in - covered in mud but fine. I groomed him and eventually left at around 9pm.

Got to the yard at 7 a.m. this morning to find Pad staggering around his box. Totally uncoordinated - appeared to be front and hind legs. However, he whinnied to me and obviously knew where he was. He fell down several times.

Vet came out. Checked heart - pulse absolutely normal (strange - surely his pulse should have been raised with stress of not being able to control his limbs?) On vets arrival Pads. eyes were wrong - i.e. pupils very very dilated - but vet checked and his eyesight was fine. Pupils subsequently reverted to normal.

Gave him another steroid injection and said he would go and confer with other vet - Simon - who came previously. I sat with Pad. for 3 hours. Whilst he couldn't balance. By spreading his front legs he kept upright and ate carrots over the door and played with my hat - i.e. he seemed reasonably happy. - Simon subsequently came out and half an hour before he arrived, Pad. was suddenly fine again. i.e. he went in the space of some 30 minutes from falling back when he pulled on some hay in my hand - to being able to walk and trot up on a sound surface and do tight turns in hand to right and left.

My vet is completely puzzled. He has given me his mobile and asked me to call him day or night if there is any change.

This evening Pad is still o.k. I am going back to the farm shortly to sit with him.

Can anyone offer any advice please? Pad. is 18 years young and I have owned him for 11 years - we had a wonderful season eventing last year.

Thank you.

Jenny
Member:
Imogen

Posted on Friday, Jan 7, 2005 - 3:23 am:

Jenny, in my humble, unless he's very young for his age, 18 is really too old for eventing unless it's training/pre-novice and not every weekend...

I do hope you find out what's wrong.

Imogen
Member:
Astbury

Posted on Friday, Jan 7, 2005 - 5:17 am:

Hi Imogen - Pad really is very young for his age. Even in the early days, I never ran him more than once every month and have always kept the speed down (at least, where I could - sometimes we disagreed on that one!)His antics in the dressage arena have always been our downfall and led to comments last season "never mind, excellent paces, one to watch when he matures"!! I call him my "geriatric delinquent". I am very, very careful with him now. Last season we simply went out for fun - Hors Concours at Intro (Training) and Pre Novice level and I limited him to an absolute max. of one event per month - in practice, because the ground was hard over the summer, it became one event every two months and I withdrew from another because I wasn't happy with the going in the show jumping arena. I know him so well that I believe he will tell me when he's had enough. I'm 56 myself, so we are a pair of old fogies who still like a bit of fun.

Pad is o.k. still this morning. I checked him twice in the night and again at 5 a.m. and 7 a.m. Horse looks good - I'm a wreck. Thanks for your message. Will post when I hear more.

Jenny
Member:
Christos

Posted on Friday, Jan 7, 2005 - 6:06 am:

I remember some ten 17-18yo eventers in the Olympics (out of 75 horses) and I've had some fantastic cross country rides on 18-19yo horses, so I will disagree that an 18yo horse is too old for competitive eventing.
Definitely very close to the end of his career, but not necessarily there yet.
The reason, I believe, that one does not actually see even more "aged" eventers, is that these horses are often pushed too much before they're really mature and experienced, collecting numerous minor injuries that catch up with them later on.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Jan 7, 2005 - 9:25 am:

An acute CNS disease that localizes to the brain or possibly the cervical vertebrae that gets better spontaneously in less than an hour...

If no other reason can be identified a mild seizure I think best fits these facts. Toxicity (IV procaine penicillin, sedative, botulism?), neoplasia, or vascular accident is possible. Though in each of these the history is usually not one of rapid resolution (except the procaine pen), they best fit the facts that you have given so far. Perhaps there was swelling in the CNS and the steroid relieved it, allowing normal function to return? A repeat exam that concentrates on the nervous system, a repeat lab work up, search of the environment for possible toxins, your next step diagnostically would be a CSF tap. I am not sure that is warranted if he is really 100% normal now. The problem is not that there is nothing that fits, there are many possibilities, the problem is how to figure out which one it is.
DrO
Member:
Cara2

Posted on Friday, Jan 7, 2005 - 9:44 am:

Hi there Jenny,

I would go with Dr O, it does sound as if Pad has had a bit of a seizure. Had he been fed already when you discovered him to be ataxic in the morning? My mare's epileptic seizures are all triggered by eating, 98% of the time its her breakfast that does it although being led out to graze in hand has done it a couple of times too. Eating is a very common trigger. I keep a national database of horses with seizure disorders, if nothing else to prove to vets that it is a great deal more common problem than they always tell people. A common factor in such cases is the nature of the horse - high spirited and/or competition (usually jumping) animals. My own mare is notoriously loopy. Would you mind saying what part of the UK you are in please?
Member:
Chance1

Posted on Friday, Jan 7, 2005 - 2:25 pm:

Helen,

Do you allow access to your database? There is a horse at our barn who has been having sezuires for at least the past 5-6 years. I have seen 8 of them, so I'm sure she has many more when no one is around. She has been to UC Davis for testing and the only thing found were some irregular brain waves. She was, of course, fine the entire time she was at Davis. She was placed on phenobarb and sent home, where she promptly had a seizure. This one was much different than the previous ones. Less violent, longer and with lasting effects. It now seems that here hind end is permanently disconnected from her brain. It seems almost more like a stroke, given the lasting symptoms. She now circles to the left to get around. She's unsafe and uncomfortable and should probably be put down but her owner is in denial and doesn't see her extreme discomfort and lack of quality of life. I would be very interested in seeing the data and passing it on to this mare's owner. Thanks!
Member:
Astbury

Posted on Friday, Jan 7, 2005 - 3:04 pm:

Hi Helen and Dr O

Thanks for your postings. Pad. is fine again today. I have walked him out several times and taken him grazing (on the end of a lunge line - the weather here today is dreadful, very windy - and chances are he would have had a leap about and done a runner if I had led him just in a lead rope!!)

I am keeping him currently under observation in stable and walking him out plus grazing in hand several times a day. I am going to ensure I watch him very closely on Sunday pm/Monday. Following the initial lameness (and subsequent diagnosis of lymphangitis), Pad was given a corticosteroid injection: Four days later he had the "shaking" episode when being led out in hand grazing. This was quite brief and in no way spectacular. The others at the yard thought that he was simply very cold but I felt there was more to it. The vet came and gave him a corticosteroid injection - and four days later he had the awful episode yesterday morning.

I do, unfortunately, have experience with horses suffering from seizures. My previous horse, a mare, Teo, unknown to me, was suffering violent seizures before I bought her. (I discovered this after the previous owner subsequently died and the groom, whom I knew a little, "spilled the beans". I had the mare for six months, with the first seizure occurring - unknown to me - 2 days after I bought her. The only symptom when I arrived at the yard, was the mare banging her head against the wall. Sadly the frequency of seizures increased and despite investigation at Newmarket by a consultant neurophysician, the decision was taken to euthanase her, when the fitting was occurring almost daily and she was getting caught up in our post and rail fence and injuring herself. Incidentally, the mare was not kept where my current horse, Pad is kept. You are quite right when you say that the problem is a lot more common than people suppose. I discovered this when I was trying to help Teo. For your database, one thing that I noticed with Teo, was that she was very sensitive at times to noise. She also had, what I called, her "quiet times" when she seemed to disappear into a different world. Finally, the seizures always occurred at quiet times, rather than when she was engaged in activity - which probably explained why the vendor took her showjumping on the morning I had her vetted and only arrived back at the yard after the vet and myself!! Very very sad.

Pad hadn't eaten when I discovered him to be ataxic - other than presumably hay. My mare, after a fit, recovered very much quicker than Pad. I found him at 8 a.m. At 1130 he was still having difficulty in standing up and then between 1130 and 1200 he became normal again.

I live in Loughborough, Leicestershire and my horse is kept at Six Hills, some 6 miles distant.

A question for Dr O. if possible, please. Apologies for this lengthy note! My vet thought on travelling to me that the problem would be botulism from my description. However - like you - he said the recovery speed didn't fit with this. I thought botulism was primarily due to mouldy haylage. Pad is on a feed regime called "simple systems" where no sugars are fed at all. He has "lucie bix" freeze dried lucerne, just good South AFrican lucerne with absolutely no molasses. Also a product called "total Eclipse" which contains brewers yeast, seaweed, and linseed, and "Multigerm" which is a natural live probiotic. This was recommended to me by a cranial osteopath who was helping me with Pad a few years ago and he has thrived on it since. He has so much natural energy, anything else makes him quite "hyper". He also has ad lib very good quality hay and is normally turned out with his Shetland companion all day in summer (the Shetland has to wear a muzzle!) and for around 4 hours in winter. So - no haylage. However, we are on a sheep farm, and I did notice the other day, that the farm puppy had found a dead sheep somewhere and deposited certain remains in the midst of my hay. Is there any chance this could have caused contamination? The smell was awful and of course I threw away the hay around it but is there a chance I might have missed something when filling a haynet in the dark? This is probably silly, but I am considering everything.

Also, our stables are extremely good and clean, but since the sad disappearance of our very good "ratting" cat at the farm, over the past week, I have seen several rats scuttling along the beam in Pads stable, and when mucking out, almost pitch forked another which was in his straw bed. Could there be a link there? I know humans can suffer from a dreadful disorder (Weills? disease) from either rat bites or rat contaminated food). However I think the lymphangitis more likely occurred due to a slight cracked heel on the affected hind leg.

Finally, on looking at the website last night, I noticed a reference to Equine Herpes Virus. I thought symptoms other than neurological always appeared with this, but understand not, and again my vet mentioned this one. But again said the speedy recovery made it extremely unlikely.

I really hope that this was a one-off with Padraig, but I also really would like to find the cause so that I can address it properly. My vet has asked me to call him on Monday to update him and he is reluctant to give Pad more steroids until we establish the cause. My fear is that he might injure himself should there be a recurrence meantime overnight. I am ensuring his bed is deep with huge banks.

Surely there is very likely a link with the lymphangitis - even if only that this compromised my horse's immune system and made him susceptible to other stuff? But then - could they be entirely separate issues? Strange though, that Pad. has never shown any such signs before. Even stranger that I could somehow have two horses in succession which suffered seizures - a comparatively(?) rare disorder.

I did notice that the penicillin (which was given iv) did mention reactions in susceptible individuals but didnt say what these were. In any event, P only had one iv injection and I gave the rest of the dose orally.

Will keep you all posted - but will try and precis next time. Sorry!

Jenny
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Jan 8, 2005 - 1:32 pm:

There seems to be some confusion here about the procaine penicillin. The procaine is a neurotoxin and if gotten into the vein of any horse causes remarkable incoordination, seizures, and if enough is given death. This is not to be confused with the allergic reaction that happens rarely in horses.

Botulism is caused by a stable toxin produced by Clostridium botulinum. Decaying organic matter of any kind allows the organism to prosper and form the toxin. There are recorded cases of horses poisoned by the feces of animals that have fed off carcasses. Carnivores are resistant to the effects of the toxin because they become autoimmunized by constant low grade exposure. I have to say this history moves this to the top of the list of possiblilites for me. EHV, hmmm possible but the history of exposure to possible botulism is strong evidence for the possibility. For more we have an article in this topic on botulism, just select Incoordination, Weakness, Spasticity, Tremors off the navigation bar above.
DrO
Member:
Astbury

Posted on Saturday, Jan 8, 2005 - 3:36 pm:

Dr. O. Thanks for clarification on procaine penicillin and for comments on Botulism. Have checked topics. Again, today,I found sheep wool and defaecation material on pallets where I store my hay. Have thrown all suspect hay away and moved good bales into secure area.

Rat problem mentioned earlier currently being addressed. Feed room is accessible to rats (very old stable block, and they find way in thru roofing system). All feed secure in containers but last week rats chewed through plastic net of carrots on floor and gnawed into many carrots. Could rat saliva cause problems if one subsequently fed affected carrot to a horse?

I think I am getting paranoid! Pad. is o.k. still. Walked out today for grazing for 1 hour in hand. No signs of problems so far.

Will update later. Thanks again. Much appreciated.
Jenny
Member:
Astbury

Posted on Sunday, Jan 9, 2005 - 6:29 am:

Quick update - Sunday. No change. Walked out in hand/grazing 1 hr this morning. Very keen on way out. Possibly a little more tired than normal on way back to stable later(but then I'm on heightened state of awareness at present - so maybe not). Each time out, immediately on return obviously v. thirsty and rushes to water bucket to drink. Not noticed excessive drinking during day tho. Today is three days after last administration of corticosteroid injection: watching him closely over next 24 hrs.
Jenny
Member:
Cara2

Posted on Monday, Jan 10, 2005 - 8:01 am:

Hi Ruth,

Its not online currently and I use it largely to log occurrences but I'm more than happy to answer any questions you might have ( I always record descriptions of the seizure, duration, breed of horse etc(. Poor mare, it does sound like she has done some permanent brain damage this time. Unfortunately it takes about 3 weeks for the phenobarb to reach a therapeutic level in the bloodstream. I was lucky as my mare has a seizure every 10 days and she responded very quickly to the drug and was saved further seizures at the time. Now our biggest hazard is breakthrough seizures when she is no longer getting enough drug to do the job. I'm lucky as her seizures are tied to her hormones so I know what days to look out for warning signs.

I know its hard to lose our lovely friends, I nearly had to make the decision myself just after Christmas but this poor mare must be feeling the muscular effects of going around in circles if nothing else. Keep trying to help her owner to see the bigger picture.
Member:
Cara2

Posted on Monday, Jan 10, 2005 - 8:10 am:

Hi again Jenny,

I'm glad to hear Pad is behaving himself but really sorry to learn about Teo. It is shocking that someone could knowingly sell a horse with such a dangerous problem but sadly I have heard the same story from someone previously. And no, you are not the only person to have lightning strike twice although we hope this isn't the case with Pad. One girl came forward having lost her jumping pony to seizures and shortly afterwards her very old pony to what the vet thought were unseen "resting" seizures due to the old brain getting a bit slack. You are right, most horses like other species only have them at rest. I have only a very records of horses seizuring while being ridden. I suspect my mare's earliest ones were when she was just waking up, whatever time of day and I learned not to feed her if she wasn't entirely awake. In fact looking a bit dozy can be a warning sign on her due days. Incidentally, do you think she was deliberately banging her head on the wall or doing it involuntarily? I only ask because a friend had a youngster which caught strangles and she found him doing just that one morning - she had him put down straight away and apparently it was caused by abcesses forming in his inner ear. Poor creature. I may well come back to you again about Teo so that I can get the most detailed info for my log.
Member:
Astbury

Posted on Monday, Jan 10, 2005 - 11:25 am:

Hi Helen - let me know what info you want on Teo. I will look back in my file because I think I have quite detailed records as I tried (unsuccessfully) to sue the vendor. Gave up in the end - it wasn't going to help the poor horse and it seemed more sensible to move forward.

Pad is still o.k. so I am keeping my fingers firmly crossed for him. Interestingly, things have become a little more complex. Where I keep Pad, as well as being a farm is also an eventing yard run by a friend and accredited BE trainer, Caroline Moore. Caroline told me at lunch time that one of her regular lessons had cancelled because their pony "had a swollen leg and seemed to be having problems co-ordinating/balancing. I have spoken to the person concerned, and it does seem that the two are very similar, although the pony's problem does not seem to have been quite as severe. I have to update my vet later today so will speak to him about this latest "development". The pony has been at our yard on several occasions over the past week. This could be a "red herring" or could throw things wide open again. Very odd.
Jenny
Member:
Astbury

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 11, 2005 - 2:56 pm:

Pad still o.k. thank goodness. Vet coming Thursday to carry out clinical exam and take blood sample. Have mentioned possible link botulism - contaminated hay - thanks Dr O.

Had at the back of my mind some articles which appeared In Horse & Hound (British equestrian magazine) last year which I recall mentioned incoordination. Suddenly linked it with EHV and did a search on the H&H webpage on lymphangitis and neurological episodes. Result has brought up some articles on Equine Herpesvirus - most particularly a paper by Catherine W Kohn on Feb 26 (www.vet.ohio-state.edu/level2/public/Risk_EHV.html )This described less typical neurological Clinical Signs of EHV-1 Infection as incoordination which can progress to an inability to stand. Can be accompanied by cellulitis (inflammation or swelling of the limbs) and petechiae (small hemorrhages on the gums). Also refers to signs of vasculitis being edema of distal limbs, sheath, or ventral midline.

Pad was first diagnosed as having lymphangitis following initial lameness the previous day and very substantial swelling of the off hind the following morning; I then later became aware of quite substantial swelling of the sheath (right hand side only), when was then followed by the incoordination episode. No sign of haemorrhages of gums - but frankly, I didn't look - and neither did vet).

The pony which I mentioned yesterday is still described as owner as being definitely not right - and has shown problems in urinating, as well as dribbling small volumes of urine. (a further possible sign of EHV-1 infection mentioned in article).

Anyway, I post this for interest sake and in case Dr O. can discount the possibility of EHV. Obviously, I'm only looking at it from a "lay person's" point of view - which I know is a dangerous perspective!

Member:
Vaeqres

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 11, 2005 - 4:02 pm:

Hi Jenny, I have been following Pad's saga with interest. All my red flags went up when you mentioned rodents and carcasses in or near his environment. There is a product to which you probably have access, which was developed in G.B. for horses during W.W.II. It would cost only pennies a day to use and your horse would only need a tiny amount each day. It would take a little research on your part to find it because I don't know what name is used in the U.K. However, in this country it is called BMD. It is a common feedlot additive, FDA approved for all species except horses, (over here, you have to pay for approval and nobody is going to make money getting it approved for horses) and it is a coccidiastat in the intestine, giving the animal some protection against almost any nasty thing that enters the body through the digestive system. I have been using it successfully for my horses for years to protect them from coccidia-generated laminitis, and have been given to understand that it will also give some protection against salmonella and EPM. I think it is approved all over Europe for horses, and I think it would give you some peace of mind if Pad were getting it. It is a form of feed grade bacitracin called bacitracin methylene disalicilate, which is not absorbed into the body, but stays in the gut, promoting the population of good gut bacteria until it is expelled in the manure. When it comes out, it is inert and harmless to the environment. Best wishes, Andrea
Member:
Astbury

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 11, 2005 - 5:01 pm:

Andrea

Many thanks for that - I will look into this. Interestingly, Pad's companion (who looks after him in the field and when travelling!) is a Shetland pony. She has, periodically suffered from laminitis but we have kept her free of it over the past couple of years through judicious use of a muzzle when out at grass as well as plenty of exercise. Oddly, she went down with laminitis 3 weeks ago now - for which I could find no real reason and she is still not right. I am keeping her stabled next to Pad (she is always in at night normally anyway). Have bedded her on very deep shavings bed. Giving her a NAF product called Laminaze, Epsom salts, Aloe Vera juice and currently also giving her half a bute a day. Her feed were trimmed last week. Have been wracking my brain as to what to do next, thinking I will have to get xrays done and embark on some farriery corrective treatment. She is eating well and isn't in pain whilst in stable, but still quite sore when walking out. She doesn't wear shoes normally. I wonder if her laminitis this time could be coccidia related?

Pad is currently fed a product called MultiGerm, which is a live probiotic consisting of barley on the point of sprouting - but I have not been feeding this to Gem.

I will try and hunt down bacitracin methylene disalicilate tomorrow - assuming I can pronounce it!! (the salicilate bit sounds like its distantly related to aspirin....)

Cheers. Will keep you posted.

Jenny
Member:
Skeller

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 11, 2005 - 10:00 pm:

Hey Dr. O
Is there an article about Leptosporosis anywhere. I couldn't find it. (mostly just mentions of it in some of the articles on uvetisis). Reading about the rat problem it rang a bell. I have a friend who had a horse with this 25 years ago. The chief sign was neurological problems. It was diagnosed by a blood test. I was wondering if the disease had any of the other symptoms that Jenny mentioned. It's just a thought, but better not leave any stone unturned. The horse did recover,
Jenny on another note, I'm sure you've checked to see if they are putting anything out for the rats and if there is some way it may have gotten accidently tracked into where the horses are?
I'm glad he's doing better!
Member:
Cara2

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 12, 2005 - 7:34 am:

This is all really interesting Jenny, but I bet you wish it wasn't your interesting problem. There hasn't been any spraying been going around your fields has there? As to the laminitis in the Shetland, bear in mind it has been a very mild winter and the grass is still growing quite well here in the NW. Cara has announced it is spring by starting to shed her winter coat so I am back on scratching duty. I would certainly look into the EHV line closely and ask your vet if he knows of any local cases. There was a serious outbreak down south a year or so ago. I'm glad to hear Pad is maintaining the status quo. Incidentally when Cara had lymphangitis a few years ago that side of her udder swelled right up to like Pad's sheath so that may be a normal thing in such cases.
Member:
Astbury

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 12, 2005 - 8:42 am:

Helen - I certainly do wish it wasnt my interesting problem!!

It is the most likely explanation that the grass is the culprit for Gem, but she hasn't been out at all without her muzzle and certainly over the past couple of months, the pair of them have been out for a max of 3 hours per day. No spraying to my knowledge around us.

Interesting to hear what you say about Cara's lymphangitis. I guess its very likely that the lymphangitis and the neurological stuff just coincidentally occurred at the same time. I have to fill in a PetPlan vet claim form - could be interesting. I notified them initially that Pad had lymphangitis. Haven't a clue what to put on the form now for the follow up visits...

Pad still seems fine although he has lost a bit of weight and isn't eating particularly well - although fine with hay and grass. On vet's advice turned him out for a bit this morning. Led him out with lead rope threaded through the headcollar, so that if he decided to prat about, I could release him and not have the rope flying around his legs. Sure enough, three strides into the field and he was off, bucking and rearing. Certainly didnt seem to be any lack of energy or movement there. Shut your eyes and pray stuff.
We'll see what vet has to say tomorrow, I guess.
One latest theory is that he simply whacked his head when rolling in the stable and concussed himself - which I would wholeheartedly go with, were it not for the shaky episode 4 days earlier. It's always said that the simple explanation is usually the answer. Let's hope so!
Jenny

Cheers.

Jenny
Member:
Terrilyn

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 12, 2005 - 8:52 am:

Jenny--
I just want to tell you how much I enjoy your style of writing...I am going to go out to the barn this afternoon and admonish my horses to stop "pratting about." Loving it! :-) (American prose seems so pedestrian in comparison...)

Hoping all the best for you and Pad. Glad to hear that he's now doing well.
Member:
Astbury

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 12, 2005 - 9:39 am:

Hi Terri

And if someone asks you later whether they behaved themselves, you can simply roll your eyes heavenward, sigh deeply and say, horse had its "prat hat" on today!!

Actually - one of the things I love about this site is the way you guys across the pond talk - so its mutual.

Cheers.

Jenny
Member:
Astbury

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 12, 2005 - 9:43 am:

Skeller - sorry, somehow missed your posting. I have just put rat stuff down - but it is special stuff that is guaranteed non-toxic for cats, dogs and horses. Not heard of the leptospirosis, unless that is the thing that humans get called "Weills"?

Will check. Thanks v much for idea.
Cheers.
Jenny
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 12, 2005 - 9:51 am:

Though viral infections can cause peripheral swelling it is not usually the predominant sign, with the possible exception of Equine Viral Arteritis. But since EHV can be occult it is possible Jenny, titers will help. You can find more on Lepto at Equine Diseases » Reproductive Diseases » Problems Keeping Mares Pregnant » Leptospirosis & Abortion. Running a search would turn up this and more information in the posts on the topic.
DrO
Member:
Astbury

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 12, 2005 - 2:49 pm:

Thanks for that Dr O. I hadnt realised Equine Viral Arteritis could have neurological symptoms as the predominant sign. The major outbreak of EVA which occurred in the UK was at a stud farm some 4 miles from here belonging to Geoff Brookes. He imported a warmblood stallion with the virus - decimated his stud farm and there were a lot of very worried mare owners around us too. I think a further outbreak of Viral Arteritis was mentioned in last week's Horse and Hound. Not sure what "occult" means - is it simply that non-standard variations can occur? Will also look up Leptospirosis as directed. Will talk to my vet tomorrow and keep you posted. I feel as though I am rather hogging the site at present: Sorry to all you guys but I am just so anxious for answers and all of your help is very greatly appreciated.
Member:
Astbury

Posted on Thursday, Jan 13, 2005 - 5:44 am:

Hi Dr.O and everyone else.
Vet came this morning - did clinical exam - all normal. Had me walk and trot P. Interesting trot work - Pad flicking feet out in medium trot and me jet-skiing behind on lungeline! For one fearful moment, thought I was about to become a marathon runner. Anyway, fine there too.

Have discussed all the possibilities with vet(thanks to all of you for your input): he has taken blood samples and is going to run a load of tests. At present he seems to be leaning more towards Equine Herpes Virus - but still sceptical given P's speedy resolution of the incoordination episode. Thinks botulism extremely unlikely because he says it is very rare (not sure that that means anything - if something exists, then someone is going to get it!) and usually fatal. Anyway he has referred me at this stage as a precaution on the the british horseracing levy board website (www.bhlb.co.uk) for additional information re herpes and measures to be taken in a yard. Will update you once I get results.
Given Pad's exuberance this morning, I have turned him out for a few hours. Bit calmer today on turnout, i.e. he only leapt twenty feet in the air twice, reared three times and galloped around the field once.... Oh, and tried to persuade me to go and play with him, tried nipping the back of my leg as I walked out of the field. Think I'm STUPID, boyo?? Gave him a stern look and beat a hasty retreat. I am now back at work (fortunately I run my own business from home) and one of the event yard grooms is keeping an eye on him for me.

Will let you know results of bloods later. I am now overdue with worming (was due to worm end Dec) but didnt want to load his gut with wormer, when it had probably been a bit decimated by the antibiotics.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Jan 13, 2005 - 6:43 am:

You misuderstand me Jenny, EVA can cause peripheral swelling as a sign but I am not aware of EVA induced neurological disease: I was addressing your lymphangitis. Also I don't usally consider lepto as a common rule out for neuro disease in the horse.
DrO
Member:
Astbury

Posted on Thursday, Jan 13, 2005 - 7:12 am:

Sorry, Dr.O: I think my neurological signs need examining!! Thought peripheral swelling was to do with the brain, not the legs. Hohum. Gosh - I bet you enjoy communicating with total morons....
Member:
Astbury

Posted on Thursday, Jan 13, 2005 - 10:42 am:

Hi Dr.O and others. Vet just called. Results of "standard" blood tests so far not particularly exciting. Red and White blood cells showed nothing grossly abnormal; 1 enzyme mildly elevated. Sabrinogen (?) very slightly increased showing internal inflammation. Vet is coming tomorrow to take further blood and nasal swabs to test specifically for herpes. Will update on results later.
P still looks fine. Had splendid time in the field this morning. Sun shining, mild weather here. Came back in this afternoon a very happy chappy.
Member:
Astbury

Posted on Thursday, Jan 13, 2005 - 10:44 am:

PS: Just had a thought - peripheral means at the edge of - like in "peripheral vision". Now why didn't I think of the legs - pretty much on the edge of the horse!!
Member:
Cara2

Posted on Friday, Jan 14, 2005 - 5:53 am:

This just came to me from another website- though it would be of interest.
Helen

Beware Botulism in Wet Weather
by: Kimberly S. Herbert, Editor
January 2005 Article # 5375

Article Tools



Wet weather is known to give rise to increases in some equine diseases, including botulism, Potomac horse fever, and mosquito-borne diseases such as West Nile virus, and Eastern, Western, and Venezuelean equine encephalitis. One veterinarian at the Hagyard Equine Medical Institute (HEMI) in Lexington, Ky., noted that the hospital has seen a higher incidence of adult botulism cases in the hospital this year.


MAP OF PRELIMINARY DATA--NATIONAL CLIMATIC DATA ASSOCIATION, NATIONAL OCEANIC AND ATMOSPHERIC ADMINISTRATION

Above average precipitation was recorded in November 2004 in many areas of the country. Wet weather can contribute to higher incidence of adult botulism and other equine diseases. Click here to see maps of U.S. precipitation averages.

Veterinarians are attributing this rise to the extremely warm and wet fall and winter that has allowed the causative bacterium, Clostridium botulinum, to flourish in the soil. The bacterium is endemic in certain areas of North America, and in those areas, veterinarians recommend vaccination against the disease. They stress that pregnant mares should be vaccinated to pass antibodies to foals born in botulism-endemic areas to prevent "shaker foal synDrOme," as the disease is called in young foals.

"I vaccinate all the weanlings and yearlings and all adult horses, stallions included," stated Stuart Brown, DVM, a field veterinarian with HEMI. "It's such a cheap vaccine, and an ounce of prevention..."

The mortality rate in untreated foals is up to 90%; in adult horses mortality approaches 70%.

Horses are "exquisitely" sensitive to the toxin produced by the bacterium, noted Neil Williams, DVM, PhD, of the Kentucky Livestock Disease Diagnostic Lab. There are several strains of botulism, not all of which affect horses. The vaccine for horses protects against the common Type B.

"We need to vaccinate, particularly in this area (Central Kentucky), because of endemic Type B toxin," said Brown. "I worry about horses eating hay out of those big round bales covered in plastic you see in the fields. You want to vaccinate to protect against puncture wound entry of the bacterium, and to protect from contaminated forages.

The toxin that causes botulism interferes with neurotransmitters where the nerve signals the muscles. Botulism usually strikes very swiftly. Affected horses lose the ability to swallow and will DrOp grain and saliva from their lips. They move in a shuffling fashion or drag their toes, and they can show depression, muscle tremors, a protruding tongue, dilated pupils, constipation, colic, shortness of breath, and violent spasms or seizures.

Within 48 hours, horses affected with botulism often are unable to rise. Respiratory paralysis usually forces euthanasia. The severity of symptoms is largely dependent on the amount of toxin the horse receives (either through ingestion or a wound). Less severely affected horses might decline slowly--a characteristic that can confuse diagnosis.

Horses can contract botulism three ways. The most common is ingestion of the toxin (not the bacterial spores themselves) through contaminated feed or water. Decomposing carcasses of rodents or birds, caught in baled hay, are often blamed, but it is far more common for hay or silage products to be contaminated through improper storage or poor fermentation. The risk increases markedly when horses are fed large round bales, especially the wrapped silage type, which can become infected with C. botulinum. Outbreaks of botulism in several horses on a farm are almost always due to problems with this type of feed.

Horses can contract botulism from contamination of a puncture wound. In young foals, botulism is contracted through the entrance of the bacterium through the tissue of the umbilical stump. The result is called "shaker foal synDrOme" because the foal develops violent muscle tremors, a stilted walk, and an inability to swallow. Death usually occurs within 72 hours.

Normally, outbreaks of botulism in large groups of horses are rare. However, they have occurred. In April 1994, Australia's Thoroughbred industry was rocked by an outbreak of botulism at the Easter yearling sales. Some 460 yearlings were consigned to the sale, with 41 of them displaying signs of the disease; 33 of the 41 affected yearlings died or were euthanatized. It is likely that the organism was introduced to the yearlings via contaminated feed.

Horses can recover from botulism with intensive nursing care and often with the help of an antitoxin that binds circulating toxins in the body.


Member:
Vaeqres

Posted on Friday, Jan 14, 2005 - 1:00 pm:

Thousands of horse are killed (or suffer strange illnesses) every year from assorted toxins in their feed, including Botulism. Even the U.S.D.A. says there are "acceptable" levels for these toxins in feed. Since I'm in the industry, I have to be aware of these things. It makes me angry and I don't find it acceptable at all - not for my horses, or anybody else's!
The only recourse is flame roasting of the grains used in feed. That flame-kissing kills the toxins and molds, and actually doubles the digestibility, as well, so you only have to feed half as much. The only way you will be able to get this, however, is to go to your local mill and ask them to get a flame-roaster and do it for you. If you belong to a riding club and can get the power of numbers working for you, so much the better. I'm lucky, I own a mill and have a new flame-roaster and we are going to produce these feeds for my area. Good luck, Andrea
Member:
Eoeo

Posted on Friday, Jan 14, 2005 - 2:27 pm:

I feel fortuneate to have a person who mills our feed at his farm into a pelleted form. I is more digestible. When you clean up after a horse there isn't a grain of anything in the manure. We have to watch that the pellets don't get wet of course but he grows all the wheat, barley, corn, etc. that he puts into the alfalfa base pellet, along with vitamins and minerals and it works fantastic. Feed half of what we would other grain products and get much better results. EO
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Jan 14, 2005 - 4:58 pm:

Hello All,
Processing grains with heat or steam is a mixed bag of pros and cons. Though it does increase the digestibility of the starch in some species it can reduce the digestibility of the protein and it always removes vitamins. Lon Lewis in Equine Clinical Nutrition seems to offer conflicting views, probably do to conflicting research. In one view he states that while cooking increases the digestibility of starch in some species this is not true for the horse and the cow. Also he states that processing (including extrusion which involves heating) no or minimal increases in digestibility were found. In another view he states that improved weight gains were noted in growing horses when fed heat processed extruded grain. Interestingly the improved weight gain grew smaller over time. Dr. Frape in the new edition of Equine Nutrition has suggested that horse feeds should only be heated with steam to avoid damage to proteins and oil.

Though increased digestiblity can be expected with heat treated with feeds, the extra cost does not make up for the extra nutrition. There may be benefits with decreased toxin levels following heating but the other side of the coin is that it may promote microorganism growth which then produces more toxins.
DrO
Member:
Astbury

Posted on Saturday, Jan 15, 2005 - 7:11 am:

Hi All

Hmm. Interesting posts, although not sure what I could flame roast (other than the horse - sorry, poor joke!). Pad only gets freeze dried luciebix (good quality South African lucerne, freeze dried into biscuit form) which I soak in water for around 30 mins before feeding; an additive called "Total Eclipse" which is in powder form and consists of brewers yeast, seaweed, and linseed. In addition (and the only grain he gets) is a natural live probiotic called "Multigerm" (one small handful per day) which is barley on the point of sprouting. He also gets ad lib good quality hay (well - good quality as long as the dog hasn't DrOpped sheep intestines in it!!), carrots and apples and at least 4 hours turnout per day in winter; longer in summer. Despite this looking like starvation rations, he has held his weight, has a glossy coat and has a huge amount of energy. I've also evented him at affiliated novice level over the past few years on it and always ended the xc sector full of running (sometimes too much...) I used to feed a commercial mix like Spillers low energy - but as far as P. was concerned it wasn't that low - there was still far too much in the way of molasses; sugars; maize; even peas - wound the horse up far too much. Anyway, that is just him - he's a natural powerhouse, and I am sure that the diet wouldn't suit lots of horses. I guess the key is treating every one individually. I think if Padraig so much as sniffed an oat I'd be on the deck!!

Vet took bloods yesterday for testing for EHV so will post when I know results. He said, however, that I should start riding P again so I rode him this morning. Brilliant to be back on board the boy - I really thought on the day that I found him totally unco-ordinated in the stable that I was about to lose him. So I really savoured the moment today. Even when the old reprobate shied at a bird in the hedge and rearranged my backbone! I am not leaving the confines of the farm until I get results of EHV tests. Too risky for others. Also, am only wandering around our fields with him at mainly walk but with a bit of trot later. He feels absolutely fine. When leading him the other day, I felt there was a very slight "drag" in his off hind (where the lymphangitis was) but on board, I can feel him tracking up correctly and evenly - which is a great relief.

My fingers are still very much crossed and it would be good to have an answer but unless something shows on the next set of blood tests, and in the absence of anything further happening (I'm touching loads of wood - I don't want to see him in that condition again), I may have to live with the mystery.

Be in touch later. Thanks again for all your input.
Member:
Astbury

Posted on Monday, Jan 17, 2005 - 11:44 am:

Hi all. Still awaiting results of bloods viz EHV - may be a few days according to my vet (if not a week or so).

Pad. still fine. Rode yesterday and did a little trot work in the fields. O.k. until I worked on a 20 metre circle when he objected to working on the bit - chucked his head in the air and generally misbehaved. Immediately thought "Yikes - is there a problem around the poll/cervical (?) area of his upper neck and came back to walk on a long rein, thinking it might be uncomfortable for him. Rode again this morning, briefly, walk and trot in menage (the local hunt was out the back - I valued my life too much to venture out there!!). This time fine on 20 metre circle, and happily worked forwards up tothe bit - although I only did two circuits in trot/round just to check what was going on. Probably yesterday, he just felt like being silly - it was very windy. Trouble is, I'm still on "Hyper-Alert!!" I don't want to do anything which might make him worse if there is an underlying problem there somewhere. What do you guys think? My feeling at the moment is to keep working him gently - he has very good muscle tone and I don't want him to lose that - pending feedback from vet. If nothing comes up, then I guess I continue as normal. Also, I prefer riding him to get some of the steam out of him before I turn him out - stops him being such a lunatic. I do manage to retain a little control on top!
Cheers.
Jenny
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 18, 2005 - 7:42 am:

If he is 100% I don't see any reason not to ride if you are willing to take the risk of the unknown chance he will trip and you will come off...
DrO
Member:
Astbury

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 18, 2005 - 9:27 am:

Wouldnt be the first time....

(that I have fallen off, that is - he didnt trip but shied violently in canter at a passing pheasant - I think he fell off me more than the other way round i.e. we both ended up on the deck). Have the hip bone and pins in my collar bone as a trophy.

Guess as long as he feels o.k. I'll take my chances - believe it is in his best interests to keep fit and supple (and mine!).

Still awaiting blood test results.

Thanks.

Jenny
Member:
Astbury

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 19, 2005 - 4:50 pm:

Hi Doc O and all of you.
Pad still o.k. but the 100% o.k. bit worrying me. He's 100% in that he hasnt had any further "wobbly's" - Also I rode him out at the farm again today and he was fine. Keeping it very low key, walk and trot fairly straight lines, and then towards the end, in walk, did some work in an outline on 20 metre circles both reins - o.k.

Farrier came today - no problem at all. This evening, I gave him a really good checking over (first one really - muscle wise since the problem occurred) and he is definitely very sore in his left shoulder. Normally he will let me massage him all over, quite happily, but he was very worried about being touched around that area tonight.

Pad has a bit of a history here - in that 4 years ago, when bringing him up for the event season, I suddenly discovered that he simply couldn't canter on the left rein. He has always been a fizzy horse, but never nappy - and suddenly, he was really having problems - fine on right rein but on left rein, as soon as I asked for canter, he "propped" and simply couldn't do it. There followed almost a year's investigation and treatment at "Avonvale" - with a man called Anthony Pusey - supposed to be one of the best in the U.K. for "back/neck" problems - works in conjunction with a vet - but had no resolution there. Ended up with a loss of use case (insurance wise) but unconvinced they had the right diagnosis - they diagnosed "poll injury of long standing duration" - I spend the loss of use money on further investigation - which entailed scintigraphy at Potters Bar in London (no significant findings viz Poll - only "hot spots" given were right hand fetlock; right hand carpus; spine in front of sacrum" and numerous other efforts. Eventually, I was recommended to contact a cranial osteopath who did a lot of very successful work with Irish racehorses, and having tried everything else, I went with it. This lady came out twice to Pad. - on first occasion said that she was pretty sure the problem was in the shoulder - and after the second visit, Pad was fine - and has had no further problems for the last three years.

P. was o.k. yesterday ridden out - but I was on "alert" when after turning him in the field, I went out to fetch him and as he walked up the hill towards me, I got the distinct impression he was "protecting" himself - i.e. not walking out as normal. It was on a hill - and very wet - so difficult to be sure. However, today - I am sure - he is definitely sore in that shoulder again and I would also say he seem pretty "touchy" in the left side of his neck - one hands length behind the poll. Right side shoulder and neck fine.

Now it may well be that this is all recurring because of his "box" rest and the trauma associated with his problem a couple of weeks ago. It may even be that he fell heavily before I found him in an unco-ordinated state. However, a question for Dr O:

Is there any chance that there could be a "mechanical" cause rather than "neurological" for the symptoms that Pad displayed? i.e. a trapped nerve in the neck/shoulder? I asked the vets when they first arrived, but they said would have to be pretty dramatic to give that sort of response.

Anyway - guess extremely unlikely - in any event, I have my cranial osteopath lady coming to see Pad on Saturday morning to check him over.

One further question - I have got to stop reading Edward DeBono's lateral thinking!! Do horses ever suffer from problems with the inner ear? (I ask simply because I had a couple of episodes years ago of "labyrinthitis" myself where frankly - I looked very much like Pad did, i.e. bouncing off walls, and staggering all over the place.

No more questions. Honest.

Still awaiting blood results.

Thanks.

Jenny
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 19, 2005 - 6:33 pm:

If you mean a trapped peripheral nerve (seems to be what you are suggesting) no this would not cause such problems. The term for problems with balance are called vestibular disease and yes horses get them, besides incoordination there is generally a head tilt and the eyes rock back and forth (nystagmus).
DrO
Member:
Astbury

Posted on Thursday, Jan 20, 2005 - 4:40 am:

Thanks Dr O. Definitely no head tilt and no nystagmus. So guess rule that out.
Jenny
Member:
Astbury

Posted on Thursday, Jan 20, 2005 - 11:20 am:

Hi Dr O. Vet called this afternoon - the results of the first blood test shows no serological evidence of EHV. However a further test - called the convalescent screen - needs to be done in 2-3 weeks time. In the meantime, we should receive results of, I think he said, a viral screen which he will phone through to me once received.

This is all a bit gobbledegook to me - but apparently quite often blood will not reveal evidence of EHV - particularly when neurological strain is involved. Point of tests was to give something to hand the hat on if it IS EHV I guess.

I asked my vet, off the formal "vet" record, if he could hazard a guess as to what on earth was going on and he said he thought the most likely explanation was that Pad rolled, got cast and whacked his head, causing mild concussion. He cannot come up with anything else which would give resolution so promptly. I told him I would wholeheartedly go with that - except for the "shaky" episode the previous week. My vet had checked this out with the vet from the practice who came out on that occasion - and he could find nothing either (Pad had stopped shaking when he got there anyway) and believed that it was simply a result of him a) getting very cold (It was freezing with a high wind out); b) knocking himself on the lymphatic leg when he spun round. Dunno - when I got him back to his stable, while he was shaking, he was still munching hay so didnt seem particularly bothered, although while I went to phone the vet, my husband said that for a very brief period, Pad appeared to be having difficulty in eating.
Will update when next blood results through. I HATE mysteries.
Member:
Astbury

Posted on Thursday, Jan 20, 2005 - 3:02 pm:

However I prefer a mystery to a repeat performance....
Member:
Astbury

Posted on Friday, Jan 21, 2005 - 4:23 pm:

Pad. still o.k. Rode this morning in menage as fields were awash. Simply walked on long rein both reins and trotted similarly - o.k. Asked for a little more outline and on right rein, P threw his head up to right and fell out of left shoulder. Definitely something amiss somewhere. Came immediately back to walk. Patted him and reassured him and walked ten metre circle both reins quite happily. Then did a further few strides in trot on right rein, round but fairly long and o.k. Gave him a big hug and a carrot and called it a day. Osteopath coming tomorrow morning. Will post later.
Member:
Astbury

Posted on Saturday, Jan 22, 2005 - 3:22 pm:

Osteopath been today. Definite problem neck through to shoulder left side. Pad reacted very obviously, when she was working down there - but was fine on right. Probably caused when he was falling about the stable. She did quite a lot of work on him and I have to say, he looks a lot happier now - although it's not a "quick fix" - I've got a lot of work to do with him, I think.

This lady, although a fully qualified osteopath, does a lot of other "stuff" as well - and whilst I am naturally a complete sceptic at "fringe" stuff - I have to say that over the years I have come to very much respect her opinions - as have a lot of otherwise seemingly normal people!!

Anyway, having worked with Pad today, she comes down heavily on the side of some form of toxicity. Doesnt believe the primary cause was a cns disorder but that the neurological symptoms were probably a result of some form of poisoning. Also believes his liver is in need of some tlc. There you go, I've said it. Who knows. I would stress that this lady always sends owners to the vet initially and prefers to work with vets - she is by initial training a fully qualified biochemist. O.k. Doc - I know: How can she draw such a conclusion without scientific evidence? Search me. Maybe it's a load of waffle, maybe not. Dunno - as long as my horse feels better, it's o.k. by me... And he did smile at me tonight!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Jan 23, 2005 - 10:18 am:

What poison does she think likely Jenny? There are some physical findings that indicate liver problems see, Equine Diseases » Colic and GI Diseases » Mouth, Esophagus, and Liver » Icterus & Jaundice in Horses.
DrO
Member:
Astbury

Posted on Sunday, Jan 23, 2005 - 11:29 am:

Doc - not sure. Her first thoughts were that the possible contamination of the hay by dead animal parts/dog faeces containing such could well be the culprit - although she didnt say botulism. (I didn't mention botulism to her). I will call her later and try and find out more.

I have followed through the links regarding liver problems wouldn't any of the problems mentioned have shown on first basic blood tests carried out? Vet said red and white blood showed "nothing grossly abnormal" (guess that means not totally normal either??). Also said 1 enzyme mildly elevated - but didn't say which one; and said, what sounded like "sabrinogen" (never heard of it) - showed internal inflammation. All of this, though, vet said was "nothing to get excited about". Wouldn't jaundice show anyway in the eye?

The only possible source of "poison" I can think of is the hay problem. Or - at an extremely long shot, which so far I have discounted - whilst he was being walked out to try and shift the swelling caused by lymphangitis, I took him into a neighbour's field to graze. A couple of months ago, they had a major collapse of an underground oil tanker at the top of the field. I know there was a huge amount of work and channels cut down the field in the clearing up operation and the day before the shaky episode I grazed Pad in there for over an hour. I discounted this on the basis that I was at the other end of the field - although on reflection the channels were cut almost two thirds of the way down - and the field is on a downward slope from the oil tanker to where Pad was grazing. Can't be a link there surely? Anyway - some of the sheep have been in that field since the leakage, and I think they are o.k. - although we did have some strange neurological stuff going on with the sheep earlier: riding Pad through the bottom fields one day, I noticed that quite a few were tottering about and mentioned it to the farm owner. I think the problem was a mineral deficiency.

Will talk to Belinda (osteopath) and post later.
Thanks again for your response.
Jenny
Member:
Astbury

Posted on Monday, Jan 24, 2005 - 4:01 pm:

Me again. Pad still o.k. Definitely seems much happier and more contented in himself now. Still waiting to talk to osteopath - think she was going on from me to visits elsewhere - and still awaiting next results from vet. Only thing I have noticed today is that once again, the off-side of Pad's sheath is swollen - as happened shortly after the lymphangitis was diagnosed. Leg isn't swollen though. Strange.
Member:
Astbury

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 25, 2005 - 4:16 pm:

Pad still happy. Sheath still swollen off-side though. I checked the "lymphangitis" leg this afternoon, and noticed a very insignificant bit of mud fever down front of leg 3 or 4 inches above fetlock. Have treated this but dont think it is significant enough to cause the sheath swelling.

Am continuing to work Pad gently - purely at this stage in walk and trot. He is still uncomfortable on circle work in trot - if I ask him gently to work on the bit, I can feel him getting tense so I am just asking a very little bit at a time, and then reverting to straight lines and long rein. I also thought today that his stride, in walk, initially was a little stilted - however on straight lines in trot he was fine. Did a little trot work in manege today - which was tricky, since he kept ogling the jumps in there. I told him that jumping was off the agenda until we were sure he was o.k.

Am putting magnetic rug on him in the morning - with magnets focussed around his shoulder and adapting leg wraps with magnets as neck rug - for 20 mins and in evening, I am giving him a massage with Aloe Vera heat lotion - again neck and shoulder - which he seems to appreciate.

Still havent made contact with osteopath and waiting for next results from vet. Will post later.
Member:
Astbury

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 26, 2005 - 4:48 pm:

Very brief post. Pad still fine in himself. Still tricky to ride on circle in an outline i.e. chucks his head right up in the air (which he never normally does) - so I am working straight lines only for a while and giving him lots of massage. I can feel a hard knot on nearside just behind the shoulder blade, so concentrating on trying to loosen this out. Still fine turning tight circles both reins in hand from the ground. Walked out round farm with just a few minutes of trot for half hour this morning: he was definitely quite tired on return. Whatever was wrong with him, it has really taken it out of him. Prior to the "episode" he was very fit and was quite capable of cantering for 20 mins without sweating or blowing (I only know this because one day he was so full of himself, I decided to let him keep cantering until he calmed down - I stopped after 20 minutes because I was sweating and blowing - not him!!)
Still awaiting latest blood tests and have emailed osteopath.
Member:
Astbury

Posted on Friday, Jan 28, 2005 - 6:22 pm:

Hi Dr O. - received next set of blood tests from vet today - negative virus activity. He will come out late next week to take final blood sample for analysis. Vet thinks that a) lymphangitis, followed by b) shaking episode (as described early on), followed by c) total unco-ordination are totally separate - and that latter profound episode was most likely caused by Pad getting cast in box, whacking head and getting concussion.

He could be right. But I have this "coincidental?" problem: from where I am standing, I had an apparently very healthy, fit horse who went from working well in school on flat, and jumping - and being sound at end of exercise session - to being found within 40 minutes of that session as being totally lame (diagnosed the following day as lymphangitis and having corticosteroid injections; to four days later having a "shaky episode" in hand (further corticosteroid injection) to four days later, having profound neurological episode (further corticosteroid injection - but with, thankfully, no further problems).

I really hope that the vet is right - and the inco-ordination was simply a result of a whack on the head. However, I somehow dont "buy" that. I think that maybe my osteopath is closer to the truth. Can anyone put my mind at rest??

Pad today looks, again, quite normal and happy - Ridden, he is fine on the straight in walk and trot, but any attempt to ride him in trot "on the bit" results in fairly violent throwing of his head - both up and to the left. This may well be due to injury incurred during his "inco-ordination" episode - and I am working on his neck and shoulder; applying heat lotion and carrying out gentle exercises which I hope will help him. In walk he is fine on both reins.

Any views appreciated. I just want to be sure that I am doing EVERYTHING possible to help my horse. I can well see where the vet is coming from, but I keep getting these "what if" moments! Probably not helped by speaking to my friend today, who subsequently spoke to the first vet who saw Pad - whilst he was totally unco-ordinated, who enquired how Pad was doing and said that he "had never seen anything like it" and suggested "next time it occurred we should videotape him". !!

Thanks for any advice you can give, Dr O. Maybe I should just "chill out"!!!

Cheers.

Jenny
Member:
Astbury

Posted on Saturday, Jan 29, 2005 - 7:09 am:

Hi - am feeling a bit humble. Have been reading some of the other posts on the website - and I thought I had problems! What awful things happen to horses and their people. My thoughts are with all of them.
Member:
Quatro

Posted on Saturday, Jan 29, 2005 - 9:52 am:

Hi Jenny, I can relate to how humble you feel. I am so worried about Levi, and then I too, read the other posts and my heart goes out to everyone. Good Luck with Pad.
sue
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Jan 30, 2005 - 7:53 am:

Jenny I am sure what you want to hear is that you know what this is and it will not happen again. However no one currently knows why this occurred with anything close to certainty. That makes prognosis impossible.

You will not find real peace in trying to find assurances nothing is going to happen to Pad because even if Pad had never been sick a day in his life this would be a lie. You should find solace in that all is well now and that episodic neurological conditions, with the exception of epileptic seizures, are rare in the horse.

I too do not really like the veterinarians conclusions and not because he might not be right. This conclusion gives an excuse to quit looking for a possible other cause that if found might lead to further prevention and those attempts will be most fruitful if they remain based in science.
DrO
Member:
Astbury

Posted on Sunday, Jan 30, 2005 - 2:12 pm:

Hi Doc - thanks for your post - you are, of course, absolutely right: I wanted someone to tell me it was a one-off freakish accident and there was nothing nasty lurking around the corner. You've put things back into perspective for me. There are no guarantees whatever the health of the horse.

Think it simply freaked me because I really thought I was losing him that morning, and had kind of come to terms with it - only to suddenly be given a second chance - and I really don't want it to happen again - but, of course, sooner or later, and one way or another, it will!

I'm relieved to hear that episodic neurological conditions are rare in the horse anyway. Can I ask a hypothetical question? (Feel free not to answer!). If Padraig was your horse, is there anything else at all you would do in terms of investigation?

My plan of action currently is to simply have next blood tests done and if nothing is revealed, continue to very slowly bring Pad back into work. I was previously planning to do a few pre-novice one day events with him this year - but that's on hold. For now, we're simply going to play around the farm, go off for some gentle hacks, maybe do some dressage once we resolve the soreness issue and enjoy each other's company. For the time being, at least, I'm not risking him over solid cross country fences just in case there is any underlying cause which could affect his judgement. If everything goes o.k. over next few months, then maybe we'll do something in the second half of the season.

Thanks again for the grounding!
Jenny
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Jan 31, 2005 - 6:55 am:

My plan would be:
  • A complete neuroexam every 6 months, for the next year and then once yearly for a few years, see Equine Diseases » Nervous System » Diagnosing Diseases of the Nervous System.
  • Besides a excellent commercial concentrate and the best hay I could find, a good complete vitamin supplement including elevated levels of vitamin E see Care for Horses » Nutrition » Vitamins an Overview.
  • I would watch the foodstuffs like a hawk for any signs of contaminants or molding and not tolerate the slightest irregularity.
  • I would have a glass of Stout or a good Cabarnet daily and toast my horse's good care and health.

DrO
Member:
Astbury

Posted on Monday, Jan 31, 2005 - 8:46 am:

Hey Doc - point 4: you're obviously a person after my own heart - except I'll switch the stout for a can of Sainsbury's Parkins Bitter.

Point 3 - I am and definitely won't!

Point 2 - I'm off to my feedmerchants after work.

Point 1 - just in case my vet asks what I mean by a complete neuroexam, can you give me a clue please.

Thanks again for injecting humour back into things!

Cheers.

Jenny and Padraig.
Member:
Astbury

Posted on Monday, Jan 31, 2005 - 8:54 am:

Sorry Doc - re Point 1 - have followed links as suggested, so will ask vet to carry out neuroexam in six months (unless I spot anything odd meantime). If he asks what I mean, I'll show him your article.
Thanks again.
Jenny
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Jan 31, 2005 - 9:25 pm:

I don't believe I have had a Sainsbury's hmmmm it just sounds good. I will be on the lookout for it.
DrO
Member:
Imogen

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 1, 2005 - 6:27 am:

Dr O - I hate to tell you this but Sainsbury's is a UK supermarket - Jenny is trying to tell you she likes a drink but saves her money to lavish on Pad...

All the best

Imogen
Member:
Astbury

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 1, 2005 - 7:45 am:

Darn it! I was trying to figure out a way of letting Dr O down gently. Got a feeling it might be the can I'm addicted to - rather than the contents!!

Cheers both.

Jenny
Member:
Cara2

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 1, 2005 - 9:14 am:

Hi Jenny,

Glad to hear Pad has at least not repeated his funny turn. My Cara knocked herself out by falling headfirst into the breezeblock stable wall while having a seizure some years ago and I have to say she showed no signs of concussion afterwards, just came round, hauled herself out of the corner and seemed just as she usually was post-seizure. Of course all cases are different, but it makes an interesting comparison if your vet's theory is correct. Mine's a Wadworth 6X by the way!

Dr O - I was REALLY interested to read your opinion that neurological events APART from epileptic seizures are very rare in horses. When Cara started having seizures 8.5 years ago I was told categorically that horses could have seizures but not be epileptic and that such seizures were quite exceptionally rare to boot. Even now I am contacted by owners who have been told exactly the same thing by their vets. They also get told the condition can't be treated/controlled either. Well I'd love to know what they think I've been shovelling into my horse for the last 6 years and why I've done it!!! And if its so rare how come I know of 5 repeat fitters around my local area? None of us are more than 20 miles apart and most are around 5 miles apart. In a way we are lucky as the issue isn't clouded by the other neuro conditions that you folks across the pond have to contend with eg. West Nile virus. At least it reduces the number of possible causes that we have to consider.

Helen
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 1, 2005 - 12:47 pm:

Not any neurological event Helen, unfortunately neurological disease including seizure is common in horses. We have discussed this before I believe. What I wrote above is episodic neurological disease other than epilepsy is rare.

I am still confused guys, are you saying it is a Parkin's Bitter that she has bought at Sainsbury's (so I need to be looking for a Parkin's)?
DrO
Member:
Astbury

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 1, 2005 - 1:21 pm:

Hi Doc - Parkins is an "own brand" beer produced by Sainsbury Supermarkets in cans. They have kindly recently repackaged in 24 can boxes for the princely sum of £11.49p. Well - you just couldn't leave it, could you? Right - just finished work, am off to do the horses and when I get back, I will settle in an armchair with a couple of cans of beer.....
Cheers All!
PS:Helen - thanks for your post: a Wadworth 6X sounds potent. Don't know if I could say it, if I went back for a second one though.... "another Wadwoof 6X please...)
Member:
Suzeb

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 1, 2005 - 2:24 pm:

Hello Jenny,
In all earnest, I will be serious about Padraig's condition and have been following the posts.

Getting to the lighter side of things; are you sure that Padraig hasn't been imbibing on the some of the swill that you mention .

I did read somewhere that beer/ale is an ingredient of bran mash .

Perhaps you could elaborate....

Used to live on your side of the pond, but now live across.

Susan B.
Member:
Astbury

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 1, 2005 - 3:42 pm:

Hello Susan - thanks for following Padraig's posts. Just got back in from feeding him and his Shetland companion, Gem. Both seem fine - Gem, the Shetland, trod on me and Pad nipped my rear end as I filled water bucket. At least I think he did, but he's not admitting it.

Given the chance, the boy probably would nick my Parkins. Unfortunately he's not yet reached the stage of evolution where he can hold the can in his bottom jaw and manoeuvre it so it can flow down his throat. (What a waste of beer). He has, however, been known to swill my coffee when I'm not looking.

Now bran mash - there's a thought. Haven't used it for years. Thought it was frowned on nowadays. A long time ago, I lived in South Australia and used to go Mock Hunting. At end of long day we always gave horses bran mashes - and we were pretty shattered too - so it is just possible beer/ale may have become an ingredient of the horse's tea - more by accident than design - i.e. we tottered back out to the yard with beer in hand, tripped over the brush (left carelessly - always by someone else - in the yard), and poured said nectar into horse's mash. I mean, you wouldn't DELIBERATELY put it there, would you??

Interesting advice though, he DID rather look as though he had had a "skinful" - but he wasn't slurring his whinnies.

Cheers!

Jenny and Pad

PS: Just how DO you produce those interesting little round faces on your posts?
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 1, 2005 - 5:59 pm:

Years ago I worked for a dentist who raised Black Angus. He was very proud of all the medals his bull had won at the livestock shows, and was always complemented for how well his bull behaved. Until, at one show, while the judge was walking the line trying to decide who go the blue ribbon, his bull burped a big, beer smelly burp right in the judge's face! It seems it was standard practice for this dentist to feed his bull several cans of beer before each ring appearance!! He felt it not only calmed the bull down enough so that even the man's daughter could show him, but it also filled the bull out a bit more.

Hmmm.....Is beer on the test list for horses?
Member:
Astbury

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 2, 2005 - 5:24 pm:

Hi Sara - Over the years I've tried all sorts of natural remedies for Padraig - in an attempt to improve our performance in the dressage phase of a ODE: but I have to say I never thought of beer. Darn it - we could have been REALLY SOMETHING on the circuit (as well as sharing a true "bonding" experience - one gulp for me - one for you...). Not sure if legal under BE or FEI regulations though. I have to admit to having imbibed the odd DrOp of liquid myself in the early days, prior to the cross country phase - but never thought of pouring it down the horse's throat.

Maybe if we hit the scene again, we'll give it a go.

Cheers.

Jenny and Pad.
Member:
Astbury

Posted on Thursday, Feb 10, 2005 - 5:09 pm:

Hi Dr O and everyone
Pad still seems fine in himself. Still a bit tricky ridden forwards into an outline though, so am taking it very slowly and doing a lot of massage work, and exercises to strengthen his muscles. Can only think he must have knocked himself about quite a bit. I have found a very tight knotted muscle just behind the left shoulder point - just in front of where the saddle fits, about a hand below the withers - am doing a lot of work on that.

The weather here is diabolical, fields are a sea of mud. Horses look like swamp creatures when I race over to farm at lunchtime to drag them in. Have worked it out that as well as doing an 8 or 9 hour working day at the moment, I am spending upwards of 5 hours with the horses. Takes an hour just to get the mud off them when they've been out.

Vet came on Tuesday to take further blood test. Will post you on that later.

Meanwhile I am taking Dr O's advice and heading downstairs for a beer to toast my horse's good care and health. Or was it health and my care?
Cheers all! I'll have an extra "Sainsburys" for you doc!
Jenny
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Feb 11, 2005 - 7:52 am:

Thanks, Cheer to All!
DrO
Member:
Chohler

Posted on Friday, Feb 11, 2005 - 1:22 pm:

just a note my horse likes wexford irish ale, very nice i might add and if you pour it into a glass the head foams down to the bottom of the glass.

my horse also likes michelob....

You can get hard to find beers at beergeek.biz and a few other places. Heck around here we have a drugstore,liquorstore, gun shop all in one with a drive in window. Go figure
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Feb 11, 2005 - 8:54 pm:

I have actually seen an explanation of this phenomenea: the bubbles rising in the middle create a circulation in the glass that force the bubbles on the edges of the glass down. At least I think that is what I remember..let me go to the fridge for a bit of experimentation....
DrO
Member:
Astbury

Posted on Saturday, Feb 12, 2005 - 6:16 am:

Hey Doc. Is that what's called a "double blind" trial??

Cheryl - I think your post needs redirecting - go to Care of the Horse - Ensuring your drinks cabinet security has not been breached - Equine Alcoholism. My Shetland particularly relishes bacardi and coke - but then, I always said, she has no taste whatsoever.

I'm going to go and find me some Wexford Irish Ale later. Purely to observe the phenomena, you understand!

Padraig sends you all his warm regards. He doesn't drink - says at least one of us has to stay sober.
Member:
Astbury

Posted on Saturday, Feb 12, 2005 - 6:24 am:

Cheryl - do you say liquorstore, drug store; gun shop combination??: What's the rationale behind that??

Got it - heavy night's drinking (liquor store); alka-seltzer or other hangover remedy (drug store); pain too bad - shoot yourself (gun shop). Sounds a bit of a heavy combination to me.....
Member:
Astbury

Posted on Sunday, Feb 20, 2005 - 7:04 am:

Hi Dr O and others

Got second blood test results from vet yesterday. Serology the same as last test - no "raised titers?" - which I gather from vet indicates little likelihood of viral activity. Given the history, and speedy resolution of inco-ordination episode, my vet is now coming down firmly on the side of a bang to the head which caused concussion - and says "virtually" rules out botulism because of this.

I have physiotherapist who works at a nearby veterinary hospital as part of the vet team which works on horses with back/neck problems coming out on Tuesday, to do some work with Pad. He is still fine in himself and happily take off and leap about in the field - he also has no problem rolling and can roll completely over on either side - but if I try to work him forwards into an outline in trot, he is still laying his ears back and leaping about - as well as throwing his head up - definitely a pain reaction - trouble is where? (I have'nt even tried to work him in canter yet). Walk is reasonably o.k. Interestingly - had a conversation with my vet about trapped nerves - and he said that whilst in the past, when he couldnt find anything wrong with a horse in terms of soundness, freedom of movement, etc., he would have said that misbehaviour must be due to naughtiness - having been suffering himself from a trapped nerve over the past few weeks, he had changed his views. He said that he has full movement and to the outward eye there is nothing wrong with him, but he is suffering an awful lot of pain. He did, however, say that it is virtually impossible to diagnose such a problem in animals.

Anyway, I continue to ride P. out in walk and ask for trot on straight lines. Also asking him to stretch long and low. The feeling I am getting is that Pad's response is probably 20% pain and 80% reaction - but until we can resolve the 20% I can't push him through the 80%! I'll post on the physio's response on Tuesday. Not sure if this is still a neuro. thing Doc or whether I should be posting elsewhere?

Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Feb 20, 2005 - 9:55 am:

And there is the dilemma with a misbehaving horse and possible undiagnosed pain. The way this horse acts in the pasture certainly makes such pain less likely. The problem with resorting to the unprovable diagnosis is that every horse has changes in behavior from time to time and the vast majority train out of it. Did they have something bothering them, possibly. People that I have known with trapped nerves, or chronic pain of any kind, were not outwardly normal. For those with trapped nerves the very act of walking or even talking (usually these are sensory facial nerves trapped in a vascular or fibrous nerwork) was painful and they looked all over stiff.

It is fine to keep posting here.
DrO
Member:
Astbury

Posted on Sunday, Feb 20, 2005 - 3:19 pm:

Hi - agree that given his antics in the field, he doesn't exactly look like a paddock ornament (love that phrase by the way - saw it in another posting!)

In the field, though, he isn't working on circles and hasn't got me on his back (thankfully!!) Also, in the field, he isn't being asked to work in an outline. Don't know - hope he IS just being a cantankerous old git - in which case I will call his bluff - but suspect not. We shall see..... It has occurred to me that a useful test might be to dose him with bute and then ride him - and if he works better, then there must be pain somewhere, and if he doesn't - either there is no pain and he is being naughty - or he is reacting to remembered pain. Being a thinking person is sometimes very disadvantageous. As my husband says "For goodness sake, just ride the b...."!!!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Feb 20, 2005 - 5:40 pm:

Your points about the saddle are well taken but if I understand your earlier posts correctly it is only under specific conditions under saddle. I like the bute test but give it for 14 days before making up your mind and if there is improvement the second part of the test is does the problem return when removed. Another phrase i have always found humerous is "Yard Art".
DrO
Member:
Astbury

Posted on Sunday, Apr 17, 2005 - 4:07 pm:

Hi All and Dr O,

Pad still fine - thank goodness. No further episodes. Taking things very slowly, though. We appear to be turning into a pair of geriatrics....

Well - not quite - the "delinquent" tag is still - happily there - we have been concentrating on lots of hill work at walk to build his back muscles again, as well as doing lots of massage myself - and getting professionals on the job too. One happy horse. Watched him in the field yesterday, and he is trotting loose limbed and free and cantering happily too. No more protecting himself.

Went for a trot and canter round the field this morning. Spring in the air - at last - spring in the horse too - yee-haa! God it's good to have the old reprobate back. So - what will we do this year? Don't know - we will take it as it comes. Would like to do a bit of eventing - but it is entirely up to "the ginger one" - and if he says "go for it mum" will only be very low-level. He will tell me as and when (and if) he is ready, but for now -we are just enjoying each other's company.

Hope you are all well. Seems a long time since I DrOpped in. Work is hectic, as always.

Cheers from across the pond!

Jenny and Padraig.
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Sunday, Apr 17, 2005 - 4:42 pm:

Jenny-it is so good to hear how well Padraig is doing. You have been through "the mill" with him; I know it's good to have him back. Keep going slowly and have a great spring and summer with him.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Apr 18, 2005 - 7:41 am:

That is great Jenny and thanks for the update.
DrO
Member:
Astbury

Posted on Sunday, Aug 28, 2005 - 3:47 pm:

Hi Dr O. Seems a long time since I DrOpped in and this time it is not for me but on behalf of someone at the yard.

First of all, though, an update on Pad. He is fine and looking half his age again. We have, however, declared this year a total chill out one - no competitions, just him and me having a bit of fun around the farm. We're both getting a bit bored now so, who knows, we might launch ourselves into an unsuspecting eventing world again! We thought about becoming dressage divas - but looking at our dressage sheets, we decided maybe not... We'll see.

All of your support at the beginning of the year was fantastic - and I often think about you all.

It's Burghley International Horse Trials next week, and we're gearing up for that at our yard as one of us, Caroline, is entered with Don Giovanni - a spectacular horse which she inherited under the most tragic circumstances: his owner, a very old friend of Caroline's, died recently, and willed the horse to Caroline, on the basis that she fulfilled what had been her own ambitions with him. So you guys,if you are following Burghley, wish DG and Caroline luck!

Back to the problem. Firstly I am not sure which section to put it under.

The horse, a 7 year old hunter, came up from his summer break recently, and when the girth was cinched up - immediately fell over, and was down and apparently unconscious for at least 3 minutes. The vet came, by which time the horse was up, and apart from the cuts showing (the horse fell on concrete), nothing else appeared to be wrong.

Three days later, in the manege, the same thing happened, but this time the horse was only down briefly and then scrabbled to his feet.

The horse was thought to have minor back problems towards the end of the last hunting season, and his owner took him to our local vet hospital where they xrayed and diagnosed "kissing Spines". They have suggested operating, which they think will have a good chance of success, but in the meantime have injected corticosteroids, I believe into the joint area (I may be wrong here) and have said that in itself might well enable the horse to work comfortably so that they can work him correctly which will reduce his discomfort.

The owner is currently at a loss to know what to do and is considering having the horse euthanised if there is no improvement in a month on the basis that she feels he is dangerous (i.e. he may fall down when she gets on him).

Has anyone heard of good results from the kissing spine operation? I am sure the vet practice would not recommend this procedure unless there was a good chance of success and would like any "positive" stories to give the owner confidence in at least trying to help her horse. Unfortunately, everyone she is speaking to is saying that in their experience no horse with kissing spine ever returns to useful work and suffers continual pain and so she is at the moment very negative.

The only other - slightly odd - point to note here is that the horse has the most odd habit of at times having a very twitching mouth as well as the "nose dip" which sometimes accompanies head shakers' action. It certainly doesn't happen when he is in the field, so may just be a repetitive type of action when he is stressed in the stable, but I did notice that he is much worse today. It looks almost like a human nervous twitch, and when I first saw it, wondered whether he was starting colic-ing as it vaguely resembled the fleschling action, (but much worse) which as well as a stallion "thing" can also indicate pain.

Anyway - any ideas guys? He is a lovely horse and has been ideal for his owners. The lady is a total novice and he has been so kind looking after her, whilst her bloke used to point to point and has more experience and is still a forward going fun ride for him.

Dr O - I am now going to do a search on your site on kissing spines. Apologies if I have DrOpped in on the wrong page but wanted to let you know how Plod (Pad) was doing! Thanks again for your support early in the year.

Jenny & Pad
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Aug 29, 2005 - 6:50 am:

Hello Jenny,
Though 3 minutes loss of consciousness is a longer than average this is a pretty common problem in horses and I don't believe this has anything to do with kissing spines. Instead go to Equine Diseases » Nervous System » Seizures & Fainting » Narcolepsy, Cataplexy, and Fainting. Read the articles and the posts and I think you find explanations and suggestions for managing this problem.
DrO
Member:
Astbury

Posted on Monday, Aug 29, 2005 - 7:31 am:

Dr O

Thanks for your very rapid early morning response which is much appreciated. When the horse had its first episode I printed off the Nervous System stuff for the owners which I had seen when Pad was ill and they said it entirely matched what had happened. I think the later trip to the vet has diverted them elsewhere.

Looking at the research on kissing spines, it does seem that this could be a red herring, since apparently a lot of horses have abnormalities there with no sign of pain. Could be a case of the vets there not seeing the wood for the trees. (the vet concerned does specialise in back problems).

Thanks again.

Jenny
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 30, 2005 - 6:27 am:

It may be a bit like the old saying: "When you are good with a hammer, every problem looks like a nail".
DrO
Member:
Astbury

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 30, 2005 - 7:11 am:

Not heard that one before! Beautiful shiny autumn morning in the UK - perfect for riding - or was until horse threw a shoe out schooling in field. Spent thirty minutes grovelling about on the ground with a fine tooth comb trying to find - much to Pad's pleasure - as ever the opportunist - stuffing as much grass into himself as possible. Needless to say, shoe has disappeared into a black hole only to reappear when some unsuspecting horse treads on it. Sorry I digress...

Have passed various postings on to people at the yard and they asked me to pass on their thanks to you.

Off now to slave over a hot computer. Have a good day all!

Jenny & Pad
Member:
Cara2

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 30, 2005 - 9:13 am:

Hi Jenny,

It does rather sound like narcolepsy but I see no why reason why the horse should be put down. Doing up the girth is quite a common trigger and provided it is done in a safe place, eg. a good sized stable or in a riding arena so that he has a soft landing if he does go down, it should be manageable. My friend's pony is cold-backed and almost collapses when he is mounted but is ridden every day regardless- they just always use a mounting block and don't sit down for the first few seconds.

The twitchy mouth is interesting. My epileptic mare has a very peculiar 3 hitch grimace when she is dozing. I've seen vets peering at her before as her seizures always start in her muzzle, but I know it is just a normal thing to her. Sometimes she has muscle tremors like we get a twitchy eye and they tend to be in her lower face but I suspect it is a side effect of being treated with potassium bromide.

Glad to hear Pad is doing well - try looking for his shoe on the other side of the the fence!
Member:
Astbury

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 30, 2005 - 9:42 am:

Hi Helen

Thanks for that. Will pass comments to owner.

Re Pad's shoe - other side of the fence is common land, much used by dog walkers. Hey - Pad's shoe could have landed over someone's ear. Anyone for quoits?

Cheers.

Jenny
Member:
Astbury

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 4, 2006 - 5:36 pm:

Hello everyone and best wishes for a happy 2006 from Padraig and me.

For a pair of geriatric delinquents we are still doing well. Haven't evented this year at all but had a lot of fun together: at least Pad had the fun and I hung on very often for dear life!

We have had no further problems following the dreadful ataxic episode in January 05 but I tend to wrap P. now in cotton wool (as much as the old git will let me). Haven't evented this year at all and spend much of our time just playing at being sheep herders (he's very good at that - seems to really focus his weird brain - probably the only time I am really in control! (or maybe he is??). Decided to do a bit of jumping again this week in the menage. Trotted on left rein, long and low to stretch through his back, then on right rein, same exercise and then briefly thought "o.k. left rein and we'll have a pop over the cross pole over there" - at least - I got as far as "we'll have a ......" and he span ran and shot over the fence. How can I get this horse out of my brain?? Or would I even want to?

Love to all of you and best wishes for a happy and successful 2006.

Cheers.

Pad and Jenny
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Jan 5, 2006 - 6:36 am:

Thanks for the well wishes and the update. I think you can put your cotton wool away. It all sounds very good.
Cheers to you too!
DrO
Member:
Astbury

Posted on Thursday, Jan 5, 2006 - 5:02 pm:

Thanks for your message Dr O. Cotton wool jettisoned herewith!

I will toast you all with a can of Parkins Bitter - that well known UK imbibement for those with, shall we say, modest tastes! (spent the rest of the housekeeping on new rug for Plod (Pad) - same as it ever was - so fine bottle of Chateauneuf du Pape not an option).

Take care all of you and will keep in touch. Bit cold here currently - looking forward to the Spring (aren't we all).

Jenny and Pad
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Jan 6, 2006 - 9:02 am:

I love stouts and bitters and a good year of Chateauneuf du Pape come to think of it. The delicious smell of dry autumn leaves comes to mind but my budget is limited too making it a rare treat. I will look for a Parkins Bitter and toast you back!
DrO
Member:
Astbury

Posted on Friday, Jan 6, 2006 - 2:20 pm:

Whoa Dr O - I can almost taste the wine! Last had a very fine CduP during my corporate life - well - had to be some compensations didn't there?!!
Member:
Astbury

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 25, 2006 - 2:58 pm:

Hello Dr O and others

Padraig is absolutely wonderful. We are playing at all sorts of things at the moment. Celebrated his 20th birthday by winning a dressage competition (comment by judge was that his "moments of excitement would improve as he matured" (Hmmm!) We did a very small unaffiliated one day event and were lying 6th after the dressage, clear show jumping and a tremendous ride cross country (although I pulled him up through a wood and we ambled through at leisure to give us both a break - I needed it - not him!!). Thanks again for all of your support last year.

Reason for getting in touch now though is regarding another horse which I am helping to look after currently while owner abroad. This is a 15 year old grey thoroughbred cross whose previous career was advanced eventing and following tendon injury is now an extremely successful Grade A show jumper. Fabulous horse with wonderful temperament too. Horse had had melanomas around the anus for some years without problems but these have started to grow very significantly. In addition his sheath was very severely swollen over past two days. The vet had diagnosed some pills for the melanoma about a week ago (I am currently unaware of their name) but today an area of the swelling started to weep and subsequently erupted and a very considerable (i.e. around I guess at least 2 coffee mugs full) of thick yellow pus poured out. The vet has been this afternoon and prescribed antibiotics and lotions to swab and cleanse the area regularly.

We had all been pretty convinced that the horse was reaching end stage in terms of the melanoma increase in size - the swelling had reached the extent that the horse was having difficulty in passing DrOppings. Can we now hope that the recent swelling was associated purely with an abscess with a likely positive outcome, or do abscesses sometimes form as part of the growth pattern of melanomas? Sorry to post this on entirely the wrong site but I couldn't find anywhere suitable to place a query on melanomas.

Thanks Dr O. Hope you are well. We have just returned from a fabulous chill out week in the Greek Islands. Stayed at an Island called Lefkas in the Ionians - anyone wanting to holiday in Greece, I can fully recommend it! (and you can ride on the island if you want to - busmans holiday?) Beer was good too!!
Member:
Christos

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 25, 2006 - 7:42 pm:

You've just missed a rare chance on some excellent Chateauneuf du Pape, Jenny.

Not to mention riding decent Thoroughbreds on the beach.

Too sad, you should have DrOpped a line. We live in Preveza, a 30 min drive from Lefkas.

Member:
Astbury

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 26, 2006 - 4:23 am:

Christos - What a pity. We flew into Preveza and I know it was just a short journey across the bridge to Lefkas. I would have loved to visit you! How lucky you are to live in such a lovely part of the world.
Member:
Christos

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 26, 2006 - 5:32 am:

Yeap, it is a very beautiful place.
We arrived here last year and we're not exactly settled yet, as we're still looking for suitable land to buy.
We're negotiating a beautiful piece of 12 acres right next to the beach, hopefully we'll be building a house and stables on it next summer and settle for good.
Member:
Tangoh

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 26, 2006 - 11:12 am:

Oh Christos, you said the magic words - Chateauneuf du Pape! My ultimate favorite!!!!!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 26, 2006 - 11:47 am:

A good bottle of Chateauneuf du Pape is almost a religious experience but the last few bottles we have had have been a little disappointing. Do you corner the market of the good stuff in Greece Christos?

Jenny, as melanomas grow large surrounding tissues can develop necrosis. Without a history of a melanoma is the area where the abscess developed it is hard to figure a relation. For more on melanomas see, Diseases of Horses » Skin Diseases » Bumps / Nodules / Warts / Tumors » Melanomas.
DrO
Member:
Christos

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 26, 2006 - 4:11 pm:

Unfortunately no, DrO, there's no market for good wine in Greece. Well, there are a couple of shops, but the prices are outrageous.

I buy mine in Germany. I find a better selection, prices are reasonable, I buy it tax free (military personnel on travel order don't pay taxes) and I ship it home for free as well.

Member:
Tangoh

Posted on Thursday, Jul 27, 2006 - 11:36 am:

The Chateuneuf du Pape that we get here in Canada is not the same quality either.

Our son was in France in 1996 on a high school trip and they visited the vineyard. They kept the Chateauneuf du Pape covered in dirt and he brought us home a few precious bottles, one yet to be uncorked.

Second best, a good Wolf Blass Yellow Label Cabarnet.

Little off the topic, but a good bottle of wine is almost as good as a good ride on a summer's eve. Hmmm...a good bottle of wine AFTER that summer ride is the BEST!
Member:
astbury

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 14, 2007 - 3:19 pm:

Hi Dr O and everyone.

From across the pond I check out your site regularly and recommend everyone here to check it out.

Padraig is still going strong (in all senses of the word.....). This year we have played at being dressage horses and picked up a few points at affiliated level when we decided to be calm. Also done a couple of unaffiliated horse trials this season and last week skipped around a quite technical intro course. We are still having LOADS of fun. Pad is now 21 (22 next Spring) and thankfully still totally sound and fit. Who would have thought it after the 2005 episode!

I guess the message is as Dr O said to me earlier when I kept looking for trouble after Pad seemed to be better:
"I would have a glass of Stout or a good Cabarnet daily and toast my horse's good care and health."

I do, every day!!

Love Jenny and Pad XX
Member:
paul303

Posted on Thursday, Nov 15, 2007 - 2:32 am:

Jenny, how very wonderful of you to post this update and how fantastic it is to hear how well Padraig is doing!
Member:
36541

Posted on Thursday, Nov 15, 2007 - 6:57 am:

Hi Jenny,
so very glad to hear this update. I have followed Pad's story since the beginning. I'm sure I am not the only one who would love to see a picture of the "old git", as I believe you have fondly called him before. Two of my eventing mares are approaching 20 now, and they are aging very differently. It is lovely to have this positive info on your continued exploits. Best wishes, Stacy
Member:
astbury

Posted on Thursday, Nov 15, 2007 - 7:27 am:

Hi Lee and Stacy
It was great to get your postings - another indication of just how supportive everyone is on this site.

I have been very, very lucky to have shared time with Pad for more than fourteen years now and may there be many more. He has taught me a great deal - patience probably being high on the list!! - more seriously, how to be quiet and listen, first of all, to what your horse is telling you, when things don't go according to plan.

If I could figure out how to post a link to a couple of pictures of him, will do so (if I can work out how to use my new scanner....). I have a wonderful one, of him bouncing through water, which I would love to show you. Meanwhile for some rather unorthodox leg positions, both his and mine!!, see
https://jtpix.thirdlight.com/viewpicture.tlx?albumid=121599&pictureid=5300957
these were from official course photographer a couple of weeks ago. Now if I could just get my airbrush and make a few minor adjustments......

Wonderful to hear about your mares, Stacy, I guess like people, horses age differently. We have very old, retired, 16 year olds on the yard, who really haven't had a hard life. I've just been very, very, lucky. Pad and I have a combined age now of 79 and we take each day as it comes. I no longer plan the next eventing season but while we're both up for it, we will continue to go out to play!

Cheers

Jenny
Member:
imogen

Posted on Thursday, Nov 15, 2007 - 9:45 am:

That's either a very small horse or a very big intro course! Glad to hear you're getting on so well.

All the best

Imogen
Member:
mrose

Posted on Thursday, Nov 15, 2007 - 10:42 am:

Great picture Jenny! You both look great. I have to admit I'd forgotten about Padraig and his problems, so I re-read your past posts. I'm so glad he's doing so good now. There is nothing like riding a horse you've had for so long and worked with so long; the bond between you is so strong it feels at times you are one being.....a wonderful feeling.

You could have left off the part about your combined ages, though. I've never thought about it, but after reading your post quickly figured out that my favorite mare and I are 92 together!

I hope you and Pad have many more years together.
Member:
astbury

Posted on Thursday, Nov 15, 2007 - 10:42 am:

Hey Imogen! That's what I thought when I walked the course! Or rather, my thoughts were a little different and probably best not related here.... Pad is 16hh. British Eventing Intro courses are supposed to be max 95cm - and I think they do have to adhere to that. Thought perhaps I was shrinking....

Cheers

Jenny
Member:
astbury

Posted on Thursday, Nov 15, 2007 - 10:46 am:

Hi Sara

Thanks for your post. Wow! There's something to aim for. A friend of mine ten years ago described Pad as being "an unsuitable conveyance for a woman of my years". Wonder what she'd think now...

So, have done a quick calculation - either your mare should be in the Guinness Book of Records - or you are older than me!!

Cheers

Jenny
Member:
mrose

Posted on Thursday, Nov 15, 2007 - 11:42 am:

I'm probably older than you are. Either that, or your in darn good shape for a woman of 64!

"An unsuitable conveyance for a woman of your age!" LOL! I love it!
Member:
paardex

Posted on Thursday, Nov 15, 2007 - 12:42 pm:

It sounds a lot better then the 'women over fourty should sell their AArabs and choose a less dangerous horse' which was what I was told when I was visiting Sara!
Jenny I read and reread Padraigs story and it always cheers me up so keep the good news coming!
As for those pictures: when I was 18 I was just as frightened and aghast as I am now, though my horses think I'm a sissie whenever I want to goAROUND a tree in stead of over..
Jos
Member:
36541

Posted on Thursday, Nov 15, 2007 - 12:54 pm:

My what wonderful pics - thanks for sharing them! Has the boy got "game" or "keen" as his middle name?! I hope in future I am always astride an "unsuitable conveyance" myself!! Stacy
Member:
astbury

Posted on Thursday, Nov 15, 2007 - 3:08 pm:

No - I just keep sticking the bits back on which DrOp off! 64 eh? Actually, you've got 5 years on me. I was beginning to think I was the oldest person left in the world....

I liked the friend's description too. I keep telling Pad that I may be old but I'm too young to die...

Cheers.

Jenny
Member:
astbury

Posted on Thursday, Nov 15, 2007 - 4:56 pm:

Jos - I LOVE Arabs - I've always wondered if the 1/8 that Pad has apart from the TB is Arab (In darkest moments, I blame it for his madness!!). Realistically though I think it accounts for his joie de vie!

Stacy - Love your post. Maybe we should start the "unsuitable conveyance" club!!

Got back from the farm an hour or so ago. Told Pad about all your postings and he looked a little bashful.

Then said "Where's Am-er-ica?" Told him it was quite a way away. Said "Maybe we could go at the weekend?" Said "Look - Kiddo, the Bedford TK lorry is getting a bit on the old side and doesn't float too well". "OK" said Pad "Let's do something else - but PLEASE this weekend - no Wreck-AGE".

Oh well - a weekend playing around the fields.

Love Jenny and Pad XX
Member:
astbury

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 29, 2008 - 11:51 am:

Hi all

Jenny and Pad back again. Pad somehow hurt his neck a couple of weeks ago and initially was unable to put his head down to graze. With anti-inflammatories, this improved over the next few days and now he is ok other than he can't turn his neck fully to the right. Following an initial vet visit, a physio who who subsequently treated him suggested it would be a good idea to get his neck xrayed. This was carried out today and Pad has an intervertebral disc problem between I think C4 and C5. This is clearly shown on the xray, and the vet initially said it was severe arthritis with disintegration of the bone. Pad had an episode when I wormed him in June 07 (ie over a year ago) and was unable to move his neck for several days - but then made a complete recovery and competed during the latter part of the season (just unaffiliated one day events) successfully.

I have made the decision that whatever the outcome, Pad will no longer jump or compete, but I do feel that one of the reasons he remains so supple is through regular exercise, so, if he can cope with it, I would wish to continue to hack and work him - within the confines of whatever is comfortable for him. The vet has told me that it is obviously not a new thing - and has been going on for quite a while. He said obviously the question was whether it would impinge on the spinal cord and make him wobbly - but he thought on balance that it wouldn't. He has however said that if any wobblyness occurs at all I must stop riding him. There is a surgical option apparently, but given his age (now 22) I think would be a last resort.

Has Dr O or anyone else had experience of this sort of condition?

Thanks.

Jenny & Pad

PS: Dr O - is there any chance that the Ataxia episode of years ago could have been related to this?
Member:
astbury

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 30, 2008 - 11:49 am:

Arrgh. Have just noticed that Heading is still showing in upper case. I don't know how to change it - apologies everyone - I am not shouting!!
Member:
astbury

Posted on Thursday, Aug 7, 2008 - 9:07 am:

Hi Dr O

Wondered if you or readers had any views on the management of Pad's neck damage? Am currently doing a lot of massage - he is certainly easier in his neck. Obviously, the deterioration of the bone is there, but I thought if I can at least ensure that the muscles are in as good a state as possible, this should help.

Cheers

jenny
Member:
paardex

Posted on Friday, Aug 8, 2008 - 12:20 pm:

Hi Jenny, I am at a loss why nobody answers to your post saw it twice and waited for Dr. O to react. Perhaps it is because you posted on a very old post and nobody thus noticed If I were you I would try a new one under arthrosis[?]
I evaded answering to your post because I do have [firsthand] experience with this but the outcome was in both times very bad and though it was [on the xrays] visible it was extensive arthrosis I tried to keep my mouth shut until others had better news for you.
But... I had a mare with extensive arthrosis in the vertebrae in the neck she was obviously in very much pain when trying to graze and as she had a bad form of tying up too [and had had several bouts of that] she didn't do very well on painkillers good for artrosis. We tried for a few months to manage her as she was only 11 years old[and an already retired showjumper] but had to put her down when the day came she did not want to go with the others in the fields.
In the meantime she was put on different medications and glucosamine and chonDrOitine injections etc but her being fat[already retired due to the muscleproblem] to no avail.
Second story was the riding horse [warmblood dressage mare] from a neighbour who started acting up when ridden[didn't want to give and got very touchy and hot] but as the girl wasn't very good with horses with a lot of blood for over two years the vet's did this of as 'riding problems' She seemed to be walking 'broken' to me [dutch expression not all through her body flowing hope you can make something of this]
One [bad] morning the girl went for a trail ride pulled the horse a bit harsh to the left the mare fought for a second stumbled fell on the ground and couldn't get up anymore. A vet put her down at the place she had fallen and shewas sent to a clinic to see what had happened because she seemed paralyzed[the horse I mean] They found her neck vertebrae were badly arthritic and concluded a nerve must have blocked on the spot causing paralysation.
You can understand why I didn't really like to tell these stories but I think on the other hand you should be carefull[no jumping sounds a good idea] and check with your vets if these stories have any 'links' with your horse, your own safety counts too
And please try a new post I am sure there must be people here with other experiences[these horses were both diagnosed late and in no working condition].
Jos
Member:
astbury

Posted on Friday, Aug 8, 2008 - 6:35 pm:

Thanks Jos

I really appreciate your response. Not good news - but Padraig and I keep positive. I am massaging his neck daily and see definite signs of loosening of muscles. What the future holds I don't know - but for the time being am doing everything I can to try and help him.

Haven't posted on arthrosis because it was something I had never heard of. Also, given Pad's previous history of ataxia, I did wonder if there was a link - despite the fact that he has been in perfect health since.

I've had the boy for more than 15 years now and we have had a lot of fun together. I hope to continue to have moments of joy with him - whether it be gentle fun out hacking or whatever - but I am sure that we are so keyed in to each other that if the time comes when this is not feasible he will tell me and I will respond.

If what happened to your friend's horse happens to Pad then so be it - but I hope it follows the joy of a sunny morning together or a Padraig type shy at a hare running across the field.

I can't wrap him in cotton wool - and I know he wouldn't want me to.

Love Jenny and Pad. X
Member:
astbury

Posted on Friday, Aug 8, 2008 - 6:55 pm:

Hello Dr O

It occurred to me, following the posting from Jos, that my membership of your site might have expired. Have just tried to renew this, but, as previously, the system won't accept as it says I am still a member. Not sure what is happening here. Maybe you could advise?
Member:
astbury

Posted on Friday, Aug 8, 2008 - 7:04 pm:

Hello Jos

Just checked out your details. Notice that you have Holsteiner mares. Having been a thoroughbred person for years, a friend recently asked me to bring on her young Holsteiner to event - which I have been doing alongside my work with Pad. The mare is by Carano and has Coeur de la Bryere and and Ladykiller as well as other very well known horses in her breeding. She is totally different to my boy - but nevertheless I think will be a very talented horse.
Member:
paardex

Posted on Saturday, Aug 9, 2008 - 4:00 am:

Hi Jenny, I really didn't mean to say Padraig will DrOp dead any moment these were cases at the end of the road and my own mare had lived with us for three years [retired] before her problems got so extensive. She also had other problems making her handling the arthritis difficult.
The second horse imo was not handled careful nor trained well nor diagnosed in good time. Just wanted you to be aware of the fact the of the possibility your horse could fall with you in the saddle[a little bigger then with other horses I think] but due to his past I am sure you already are careful.
I found the right place to post this[I think]
Go to Diseases Lamenes and then Joint and bone disease and you will find extensive articles on arthritis I am sure if you don't get an answer you should repost because if you can send messages I think your membership is ok. If not contact administration.
Hope this helps
Jos
PS The Holsteiner blood sounds very good although I wonder If you didn't mean Caretino or Caretano as father. The horse in my profile is a Caretano son. Cor de la Bruyere is French very good showjumpers though with a difficult mouth from time to time and Ladykiller is about the best TB Holstein used in the last century[very good showjumpers but I saw a few very good eventers of him in his days in Germany too.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Aug 10, 2008 - 10:17 am:

No this is fine guys. I missed last Tuesday request for information at the bottom of the post and we have been traveling since Thursday so regular internet access has not been available.

Concerning the problems with instability I would review the article Diseases of Horses » Nervous System » Incoordination, Weakness, Spasticity, Tremors » Wobblers or Cervical Stenotic Myelopathy. As to aid for the degenerative joint disease the best place for information is following jos's recommendation above and study Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Joint, Bone, Ligament Diseases » Arthritis and DJD: An Overview.

As to is it possible there is a relation between a former episode of ataxia and the current problems hmmm...most things are possible however unlikely. And this seems unlikely.
DrO
Member:
astbury

Posted on Sunday, Aug 10, 2008 - 1:24 pm:

Thanks Jos and Dr O. I will go and read the relevant articles.

Cheers

Jenny and Pad
Member:
astbury

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 26, 2008 - 10:08 am:

Just a brief update to say Pad is doing well. I am back riding him but currently only at walk, hacking about in straight lines. Although occasionally the old so-and-so has other ideas....

I will be guided by Pad as to future activities - but DEFINITELY no more jumping.

Also, Jos re Holsteiner Mare's sire. Checked this and is definitely Carano. Looked the stallion up on the net. Interesting reading which I pass on to you since you are obviously well into the Holsteiner lines: (Sorry for digressing, everyone).

Carano
Origin: The sire, Capitol I is long since a sire of exceptional repute in Holstein. He proved this, for instance, at the Olympic Games in Athens/GRE. Over ten percent of the jumpers there had Capitol I or one of his sons as their sire, and Capitol's direct offspring, Cento, Cardento and Casita, demonstrated once more their extraordinary jumping ability. Carano's dam, the highly rated State Premium Mare Vision, produced four licensed sons - Baldini I and II (by Bachus), Lesotho (Landgraf I) and Carano.
Performance record: Similar to most of the breeding sons of Capitol I, Carano had a career in sports. He was successful in S class jumping tests under Henrik Gundersen/DEN.

Breeding record: In Denmark, Carano's offspring is dominating the basic level tests for young jumpers. But his sons and daughters are also among the high achievers in dressage championships. Cervinia Skowang won the 2002 Championship of seven-year old dressage horses at the CDI Falsterbo/SWE, and Cappuchino D won the Championship for six-year-olds in 2001. On account of these and other successes, Carano was selected as 2004 Stallion of the Year in Denmark.

he is currently stationed on leasehold at Brandenburg's State Stud in Neustadt/Dosse.
Member:
paardex

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 - 3:50 am:

Glad Padraig does well, I think he will tell you when his arthrose starts to hurt him[mine did] and I hope that will be a long time away! Keeping his muscles supple and his weight good with some work is very good I think!
Carano was unknown to me[not Capitol I] because he is Danish and now in Brandenburg. Look at Carthago also a very good Capitol I son! Gave very good friendly characters!
Jos
Member:
astbury

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 - 11:13 am:

Thanks Jos. Pad's regular masseur came out today (she visits every six weeks - horse gets better treatment than me - what I'd GIVE for a good massage!!!) and he is in seventh heaven. Adores the woman. Hrmph. Early this morning, he did his "circus horse stretch" just before I turned him out and was in a much longer "frame" walking out - not 'protecting' his neck at all, so I am hopeful that certainly at the moment, he is feeling much better.

Will continue as we are - I will continue to walk him in straight lines for a couple of weeks and then introduce possibly some large circles to see how he feels at that, following which we may even have a trot. No time frame in mind. My sole objective is to keep him as happy, interested in life and comfortable as possible. Am thinking of starting to ride and lead his companion shetland - haven't done so far because they do mess about a bit - but could be good for the Gem the Shetland too.

Will look up horse on web. These warmbloods are all new to me - some look extremely impressive and much lighter than the older "types".

Carry, the mare, and I are doing our first one day event together on Saturday. I haven't told Padraig - I think he might sulk..... (Actually he is probably very pleased to pass the baton on - he did get very wound up competing - apart from the cross country which he loved).

Cheers

Jenny
Member:
paardex

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 - 12:31 pm:

Hi Jenny, yesterday my neighbour came by on her showjumper SF with her two dogs [miniature dachshund and something terrier-ish] AND her shetlander following behind!
She said the shetland needs the exercise!{All her horses dogs and children are very well behaved I might add with me even the foals wouldn't follow mummy]
An idea for Pad? Dog and shetland walker?
Good Luck saturday would love to see pics!
Jos
Member:
astbury

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 - 4:19 pm:

What a good idea Jos. I can see it now. Me, Pad, Gem, Romey (our dog), Paco and Fan (the farm dogs who insist on walking with Romey), Billy and Benny (farm cats who often come with us when walking the dogs) not to mention the odd visiting hangers-on. Unfortunately I'm not sure that they are all as well behaved as your friend's. Could end up with MAYHEM. A new career for Pad though. Something akin to the animal version of the Pied Piper. I suggested it to him. He gave me a rather withering look......

Heavily censored photos might follow of event at the weekend if this is permitted on the site - otherwise will send them to you by email - i.e. all those where a) I am hanging around horse's neck; b) being catapulted out of the saddle when Carry puts in a baby green jump will be swiftly disposed of. In the unlikely event that someone captures me in a classic position over an impressive looking fence then said photos will be transmitted around the world. Carry will, of course, look brilliant wherever her rider lies.

Cheers

Jenny
Member:
astbury

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2008 - 5:23 pm:

Hi Dr O, Joss and others

Was going to attach copies of Pad's xrays which I thought might be of interest but can't figure out how to do so. Clicked on "upload attachment" but nothing happened. Any ideas? Cheers. Jenny & Pad X
Member:
paardex

Posted on Thursday, Aug 28, 2008 - 3:28 am:

You will need somebody else for explaining how to post xrays. I barely manage pics.
Would make a new post if I were you, someone will explain the intricacies of the xray posting if you have a new [empty] post with just a call for help!
And about the photos of next weekend: we will be all disapointed [and mad] if you don't post. Look at the posts under the heading 'Lounge' its always nice to see someone elses experiences[good ofcourse and bad makes me feel better about myself]
Jos
Member:
astbury

Posted on Monday, Sep 1, 2008 - 3:48 pm:

Hi Jos and everyone. Am just off to find "Lounge". Brilliant day Saturday - came 6th - great result for first outing. Clever mare.

Cheers

Jenny
Member:
astbury

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 7, 2009 - 5:36 pm:

Hello Dr O and everyone

Just to let you all know that my beautiful mad boy died today - 4 years after our original postings here. He fell in the field and hurt his eye and because he wouldn't let us clean it up he was sedated today. The vet took all precautions - checked his heart and did neuro tests and everything appeared fine. Unfortunately shortly after the vet left he fell, got up and then a while later went down again. I sat with him waiting for the vet - he was lying quite peacefully on the ground - breathing unlaboured. I left for a moment and when I got back he had gone.

I haven't gone for a post mortem. Pad was 23 - whatever finally took him he went peacefully and is now buried on the top of a hill with his friend Jet.

I will miss him dreadfully but take heart everyone - I had four extra years which I didn't think would be possible.

Thanks Dr 0 and all who followed our postings for your support.
Member:
dres

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 7, 2009 - 6:07 pm:

re read your history.. Jenny it has been a long few years for the both of you.. Pad had a wonderful life even when he was stressed and uncomfortable, becus you were there for him to make him more at ease.. I am sure he waited for you to leave so as not to upset you more to finally cross over to the RAINBOW BRIDGE...

hugs to you ..

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 7, 2009 - 7:36 pm:

Sorry for your loss Jenny, I followed your posts about Pad. He sounded like a wonderful character that was very loved by his owner, and had a very good life.

Godspeed to Pad
Hugs to you
Member:
kshayden

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 7, 2009 - 8:47 pm:

So Very sorry for your loss Jenny. May he rest in peace.
Kathy
Member:
canter

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 8, 2009 - 7:28 am:

Jenny, my deepest condolances at your loss. I'm sure you are very grateful for those four extra years.

Fran
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 8, 2009 - 8:53 am:

My condolences Jenny, and thanks for keeping us in the loop.
DrO
Member:
hollyw

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 8, 2009 - 9:00 am:

Jenny, it is obvious that Padraig held a very special place in your life and heart and will continue to do so. He's not gone . . . he's just where you can see him right now . . .
Member:
hollyw

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 8, 2009 - 9:02 am:

I mean "where you can't see him right now . . . but . . . someday! :-)
Member:
jjrichar

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 8, 2009 - 9:19 am:

Jenny, I am so sorry for your loss. Pad had a long and wonderful life because of you. As sad as it is, it is a blessing his passing was peaceful. Thoughts and prayers with you. *big hugs*
Member:
lilo

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 8, 2009 - 9:39 am:

My condolences on the loss of your special horse, Jenny. You took such good care of him, he could not have wished for a better owner.
Take care,
Lilo
Member:
astbury

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 8, 2009 - 10:09 am:

Thank you all so much for your wonderful messages of support. What a warm and caring group of people you all are.

Waking up to the knowledge that Pad had left was awful this morning, and there have been so many "first time without Pad for 16 years" moments. Emotions are raw. But I know that once I stop grieving all the wonderful, happy, funny, exciting moments that my boy brought into my life will come flooding in. I would like to post my all time favourite picture of Pad but not sure if I should do it here or even how to do it.

Thanks again to you all xx
Member:
shirl

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 8, 2009 - 3:46 pm:

Dear Jenny,
Yes, those "first times" are very difficult to handle but remember Pad's spirit is very much around you.
"Grief, like a wave, has a rhythm of it's own. At first it comes sweeping in, then it recedes, leaving us in quiet peace with the treasures of memory, love, and strength..."

Hugs,
Shirl
Member:
chrism

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 8, 2009 - 5:25 pm:

So sorry for your loss.

Look for some sign that he is healed and happy in a next life ... We have melodic wind chimes near our side door. When our beloved setter died several years ago and we were moping about the house, the chimes started to ring. Oddly, there did not seem to be any wind ... We like to think Mickey was telling us, "I'm okay, see you later."

About a year after, I saw a TV show about a place out west that took care of unwanted pets. They commented on the traditional belief that the winds in the chimes were from the dogs who'd passed away kicking up their heels at the Bridge.

I hope you see a sign of Padraig's spirit that will give you comfort. The first days are the hardest. Be kind to yourself.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 8, 2009 - 6:08 pm:

You and Pad were blessed to have such a special partnership.

I am very sorry to hear about your loss.

May memories of happy times help sustain you at this difficult time.
Member:
paardex

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 8, 2009 - 6:24 pm:

I am so sorry to hear you lost Padraig. His was one of the first stories I read on HA and I kept following your updates.
Even though you got four more good years it must be very hard on you. For him: it sounds as if he had a wonderful life and a peaceful dead. He must have been a happy horse.
Jos
Member:
mrose

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 8, 2009 - 10:14 pm:

Jenny, I re-read all your postings about Pad. He just sounds like he was a remarkable horse. I know first hand how deep the loss when you loose a special horse like him. When we have deep relationships with animals as well as humans, we take the risk of knowing loss. It seems to be the price we pay for joy and love. As high as the price is, I think the special bonds and happy times are worth it. Remember the joy he brought; I know he'll keep a special place in your heart. Regards and hugs.
Member:
36541

Posted on Thursday, Apr 9, 2009 - 1:29 am:

Hi Jenny, so very sorry for your loss. Try www.webresizer.com. Even I have been able to use it and I know I'm not the only one who would love to see your pics of the old git. I lift a fine glass of red tonight to your beloved "unsuitable conveyance" - Cheerio Padraig, we'll see you for a mad gallop on the other side... Stacy
Member:
imogen

Posted on Thursday, Apr 9, 2009 - 2:06 am:

What better therapy than to visit us here in Ireland later in the spring with an eye out for a "suitable conveyance"? If you find one, the Horse Board will refund your airfare. And there are lots of wonderful places to go riding on your holiday.

More seriously, I'm so sorry for your loss Jenny, it is nice to know that many of the horses we export end up in good loving UK homes. Lucky Padraig.

Imogen
Member:
astbury

Posted on Thursday, Apr 9, 2009 - 5:16 am:

Hello Stacey - Thanks your posting. I've used webresizer to reduce size of my photo and then tried clicking on "upload attachment" here but it just goes "clunk" and nothing happens. Sure I'm missing something. Do I need to do something else?
Member:
astbury

Posted on Thursday, Apr 9, 2009 - 5:21 am:

Hello Stacey - Thanks your posting. I've used webresizer to reduce size of my photo and then tried clicking on "upload attachment" here but it just goes "clunk" and nothing happens. Sure I'm missing something. Do I need to do something else?
Member:
36541

Posted on Thursday, Apr 9, 2009 - 8:19 am:

After I resize the photo, I download it to my desktop, then upload it from the desktop thru the popup box. It always comes up in the preview of the post when I do it. I'm afraid I'm not much good as a troubleshooter. Prior to webresizer, I sent pics to another member and they posted for me. Could you send them to one of us and we'll try? Stacy
Member:
hollyw

Posted on Thursday, Apr 9, 2009 - 8:34 am:

Yes, thank you for offering that option, Stacy. I was going to ask Jenny to e-mail the photo(s) yesterday, but didn't (shame on me).
Did you save the resized photo to your Picture Folder, Jenny?
If you can figure how to send the pic in an e-mail, I bet we can get it posted with no problem. I want to see you good friend.

I didn't read through all of the long posting above, but I seem to remember, at one time, that you told us how "PADRAIG" is pronounced? I've forgotten. Is it pronounced as it is spelled? What is the name's meaning?
Looking forward to seeing his face.
Member:
astbury

Posted on Thursday, Apr 9, 2009 - 9:45 am:

Hi Stacy and Holly

Can email photos to one or both of you but don't have email addresses - can you send - or email me at turningpoint@ntlworld.com

Would greatly appreciate that! Thanks. Still having problems.

I am sure Padraig (pronounced Porak - Irish for Patrick - according to Jeremy Spring (I am sure Imogen knows or knows of Jeremy)would be delighted to know that he had become a pin-up!!

I bought Pad from Kenneth Clawson in 1993 and Jeremy was reschooling him when I went to look at him. He had a bit of a "brakes problem".

His "posh" name was Midsummer Melody - and his sire was a horse call Mizzen Melody. Was an Irish sports horse which stood in Northern Ireland.

It was lovely to receive messages from all of the people who I spoke with back in 05!! I showed your posts to a friend who couldn't believe just how kind and thoughtful you all are.

I still drink Parkins Bitter, Dr O. Probably isnt much left in the world given the amount I've consumed in the last couple of days.....
Member:
astbury

Posted on Thursday, Apr 9, 2009 - 10:07 am:

Forgot to say, Imogen, thanks for the suggestion of a Spring horse shopping trip to Ireland. At the moment I feel as if I just don't want to "dip my toe in the water" again

.....but I do so love Irish horses.....
Member:
36541

Posted on Thursday, Apr 9, 2009 - 12:53 pm:

here he is, the look of the eagles for sure...
Member:
36541

Posted on Thursday, Apr 9, 2009 - 1:03 pm:

Kick On Pad!!
Member:
36541

Posted on Thursday, Apr 9, 2009 - 1:06 pm:

Pad and pony pal Gem
Member:
hpyhaulr

Posted on Thursday, Apr 9, 2009 - 2:00 pm:

What WONDERFUL pix Jenny. How fortunate you were to have each other. Glad you have many many good memories. I can almost hear his thundering hooves... cyber hugs...
Member:
paardex

Posted on Thursday, Apr 9, 2009 - 2:33 pm:

OH fantastic pics! What a pleasure to see them.
Jos
Member:
astbury

Posted on Thursday, Apr 9, 2009 - 4:28 pm:

Stacy - thank you so much. It is fantastic to see some of my boy's pictures up here.

Thanks also to Holly - who was going to help after she got back from work.

I just got back from doing Little Gem - Pad's pony. I bought her some 7 or 8 years ago as a travelling and field companion for Pad - she came with us to all of his events and took her role very seriously! I have spent a lot of time with her since Tuesday. She's as lost as I am - but we're both getting better. Today she decided to go and find a new friend in the next field. And she's getting lots of grooming. I walked out of the farm looking like a gorilla. Amazing how much hair a Shetland moults.....

Dr O - I am sure this site exceeds all of the expectations which you had when you set it up. Not only is it the most informative and useful site for horse owners like myself to draw help from - it is the most caring and warm community I have ever come across. Thanks Dr O and thanks to all of you for your help and support over the years.

Tonight - I rode Carry, the Holsteiner mare belonging to a friend which I evented last year and am bringing out again. We worked in the school for 40 minutes. Some good work - some not so good - she can be a little behind the leg and I am still adjusting from riding Padraig - but is generally showing very positive signs. Anyway at the end of the session, I cooled her off by walking over to Pad's grave - some 100 metres away. Strange thing. One thing that we haven't managed to achieve with Carry yet is for her to stand still for more than 10 seconds - drives me nuts, she is such a fidget. We got to Pad's gravesite and I halted her and started to talk to my boy - saying that I needed his help in working with the mare - and she stood, stock still, with ears pricked, relaxed, for more than 15 minutes while I "waffled on". Now what is that about?

I might just ask the boy to come with us in spirit to events and give us a lead over open ditches (which Carry still views with a little fear).....

Thanks again to you all. You have made things so much easier for me.

Jenny x
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Thursday, Apr 9, 2009 - 7:50 pm:

Jenny,

I am so sorry for your loss, I read the whole Padraig story and started crying when I saw those beautiful pictures and read your comments about Carry standing still while you talked to Pad.

I have a 19 year old gelding in my backyard that is very flighty, he spooks at everything, doesn't like to get caught, rips out crossties etc. Will not willingly walk up to anyone, usually because he thinks he's going to get wormed or someone is going to to do something horrible to him (like brush him).

Anyway, there is a big log out in the paddock, that I sit on once in a while, it helps me think and clears my mind. I was upset about something, so I went out there just to sit for a while and calm down. About a minute after I sat down, here comes the gelding and puts his head on my chest and stayed there for about 20 minutes. He did not move a muscle.He knew I was upset and I think in his own way he was trying to comfort me, which he did. Horses are such strange beings, I think we do not give them as much credit as we should.

Godspeed Padraig.

And Bless you Jenny for the care you gave to him.

Rachelle
Member:
leslie1

Posted on Thursday, Apr 9, 2009 - 9:27 pm:

What a handsome Irish lad!
Sorry for your loss, Jenny and Gem

PS...cant wait to see pics of you and the Holsteiner mare going over ditches, fearless and brave. And when I do, I will of course, think of Padraig and smile a little smile knowing he is there with you.
Member:
jowidner

Posted on Thursday, Apr 9, 2009 - 11:38 pm:

Oh Jenny, what a beautiful, beautiful horse! There's something about riding a horse cross-country that really "seals the deal" of true partnership and friendship between horse and rider. You both took good care of one another until the very end. How wonderful, how sad, and yet somehow, how complete. Peace be with you Pad, and a soothing balm for your heart Jenny. Thank you for posting Pad's story, it brought tears to my eyes.
Member:
astbury

Posted on Sunday, Apr 12, 2009 - 3:40 pm:

Thanks again all of you for your lovely messages of support. They are really helping me through the difficult times.

So many of you have lost horses whom you have loved and cherished and so I know that you know how I feel at this time.

I had sent some other photos to Holly which she suggested posting - and we have put these in the Images section of the site. Thanks Holly!!

Thanks again to you all.

Jenny x
Member:
astbury

Posted on Sunday, Apr 12, 2009 - 3:43 pm:

Thanks again all of you for your lovely messages of support. They are really helping me through the difficult times.

So many of you have lost horses whom you have loved and cherished and so I know that you know how I feel at this time.

I had sent some other photos to Holly which she suggested posting - and we have put these in the Images section of the site. Thanks Holly!!

Thanks again to you all.

Jenny x
Member:
astbury

Posted on Sunday, Mar 14, 2010 - 6:34 pm:

Hi to all of you across The Pond

Almost a year since I lost Pad and still reading through our postings I've got tears in my eyes - but more for gratitude for the help you all gave me at that time. Pad I know is happily galloping around somewhere with his mates.

At last I have felt ready to move forwards. Carry, my friend's mare, was sold by her last September - thankfully to a good home - and in December I bought a little youngster for myself - another Irish Sportshorse - 15.3hh by an American thoroughbred, Van Danzig - grandpappy or is it great grandpappy? Northern Dancer. Lovely little horse - only 4 rising 5 - came via Goresbridge sales (hi Imogen - didn't make it over to Ireland but Joker - what a name!! - made it over here to me. Will keep posting via the lounge - wish us many happy healthy years together. The plan is to do some very low level eventing late this year or next - but the major plan whatever is to produce a happy, healthy well mannered horse who could be "anyone's" ride.

Love to all of you - and particularly hello to Holly and Stacey who helped me so much through the dark times... A new adventure.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Sunday, Mar 14, 2010 - 6:53 pm:

Congratulations on your new horse! I'll look forward to reading of your adventures with him; an impressively bred fellow from the sounds of it!

Have you read Stacey's blog about her getting ready for show season with her young mare? If not, do. I know you'll really enjoy it. You two have much in common.

Best wishes!
Member:
36541

Posted on Sunday, Mar 14, 2010 - 9:25 pm:

Hi Jenny! How good to hear from you, and what terrific news about your new partner. I have thought of you often as my current ride produces many a "mad gallop" and is Irish herself. Please post a picture of Joker, or if you'd like, send it to me and I will be happy to help. Best wishes, proud of you for kicking on! Stacy
Member:
paul303

Posted on Monday, Mar 15, 2010 - 1:38 am:

Much luck, Jenny, with your new horse. Thanks so much for your post.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Monday, Mar 15, 2010 - 12:39 pm:

Very happy to hear about your new horse, Jenny.

All best wishes.
Member:
astbury

Posted on Monday, Mar 15, 2010 - 12:57 pm:

Hi Sara, Stacy, Lee and Vicki - very many thanks for your messages. I must take a look at your blog, Stacy - thanks for telling about this, Sara. How do I locate it?
Think I'd better move on to the lounge now, if I can find it, before I get a whack round the head from Dr O. Hi Dr O from across the Pond! I'm still drinking the Parkins Bitter. Haven't managed to drink Sainsbury's dry yet but am working on it...
I only have one photo of Joker at present which I'll try and download in the lounge - but if I get stuck would be very grateful for your help Stacey. Must take some more shots of The Boy. He is very handsome. But I would say that wouldn't I. :-) Cheers. Jenny and Joker and Little Gem
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Mar 15, 2010 - 1:37 pm:

Hello Jenny,
No whack on the head, of course and congrats on your new horse.
DrO
Member:
lilo

Posted on Monday, Mar 15, 2010 - 3:25 pm:

Hi Jenny - congratulations on the new horse. Wishes for many happy hours in the saddle,
Lilo
Member:
astbury

Posted on Monday, Mar 15, 2010 - 4:22 pm:

Hi Dr O and Lilo - nice to "talk" with you both again and thanks for your good wishes Lilo. Am very much looking forward to loads of fun with Joker.

Thanks for the lack of a whack on the head, Dr O!

Site is still terrific. Brilliant source of information!

Just got back from doing the horses. Got to finish a bit of work off and then off downstairs for a beer. Need to be up at 5.30 am to go and muck out the pair of them and ride Joker before work. Glad spring is on the way - well almost - although temperature still down to -2 celsius last night. Nothing like some of the weather you guys have though I guess.
Member:
paul303

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 17, 2010 - 1:52 am:

Much love, to Joker, for lifting your spirits and guiding you forward. Little Gem?
Member:
astbury

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 17, 2010 - 7:09 am:

Hi Lee

Joker has really made me smile again. Little Gem is good. After Pad died I moved Little Gem up to my friends yard - just up the road. My friend had asked me many times to move there - but whilst Pad was alive I wouldn't - because he had lived at Seldom Seen for 17 years and I thought he would stress at the move. My friend's little girl had great fun on Gemmy last summer. And I think Gemmy enjoyed herself just as much. Unfortunately, in November, we had a bit of a mix up - someone turned Gemmy out for more than half an hour not realising how dangerous it can be to turn a potentially laminitic pony onto frost, and within a day she had gone down with laminitis again. It has taken a long time to get her right - and the vet also now thinks she may have Cushings Disease - she was sweating a lot and her coat is very long (but a Shetland's is!). It is not, however, curly. Anyway, little Gem is on Pergolide now and at last I have been able to turn her out for short periods of time with her muzzle on - but I watch her like a hawk. I so wish she could go out and graze all day but it is sadly not to be. Anyway, she has another companion with a grass problem who spends the day with her in the stable block - and shortly, she will be going out for much of the day into the field shelter where she can get lots of sunlight.
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