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  Discussion on Horse falls to knees
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Member:
Tangoh

Posted on Thursday, Jan 6, 2005 - 5:15 pm:

We have an Appaloosa mare, she is 5 years old and has been newly introduced to our 3 horses. The owner has little history on the horse, we are simply boarding the horse. It appears to have 2 problems.

Problem 1 - She cannot pick her hind feet up and out behind her. She almost falls on top of you if you try, she'll lean on you and very quickly put her foot back on the ground. My husband persisted a little too much one day and she literally pulled back, broke the lead shank (I know, I know...she shouldn't have been tied) and went over backwards.

When the farrier arrived he put a rope on her hind foot and brought it forward, under her, instead of behind her - no problem. She could stand on 3 feet all day that way, she actually held it there herself after he let the rope slack. Both sides were the same.

Problem 2 - The other day she was leaning against a wind break, head DrOpping closer and closer to the ground, as if going to sleep and suddenly she lost her balance and fell to one knee, she got up right away but it didn't more than 5 seconds before her head started DrOpping closer and closer to the ground, she seemed to waver slightly and then picked her head up again and was fine.

Approximately 2 weeks prior to these episodes, the owner rode her and she walked fine, trotted fine but would not break into a canter...which we found strange but all things considered, poor footing, new surroundings, novice rider, we were in a corral, we weren't all that concerned. She did not limp at a trot.

We are baffled by this horse's behavior. The previous owner swears she never had problems picking up her feet the last time she had them trimmed, which was about 6 months ago. She only owned the horse since she was 3 1/2 and does not know her prior history, just that the woman never had any problems with her and that she's been trained western pleasure and has been on the show circuit.

The horse eats, drinks, plays with the other horses, albeit timidly, and is alert. She definitely doesn't seem to be in any pain.

The owner can't afford a huge vet bill so I said I would make this inquiry for her but if she wants to keep boarding with us, I may have to insist she get a vet out to look at her.

I have never heard of a horse falling so fast asleep that they will stumble and I think something's got to be wrong if she can't tolerate having her feet pulled out behind her.

What advise would you give to the owner?
Member:
Canter

Posted on Friday, Jan 7, 2005 - 8:17 am:

Sheri,
I can't even begin to guess why this mare has trouble with her hind feet being picked up, but as to the other issue, she sounds narcoleptic. A friend of mine had an older QH who would fall asleep while standing up (in his stall, under saddle, in cross-ties) and stumble--he did this frequently. When he was in his stall, he'd hang his head over the door and as he fell, the contact of his neck against the door would wake him up before he completely hit the floor. If my friend was riding and stopped to chat with someone, his head would slowly sink lower and lower and if she didn't give him a gentle tap with her heels or slap on his neck, he'd completely go down. He never seemed to hurt himself, but we were all very aware of his propensity to do this so took steps to keep him safe.

Fran
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Jan 7, 2005 - 8:52 am:

Hello Sheri,
Though I tend to believe in a horse this age that training is the big issue there is a possibility of EPSM. Not being able to lift up the hind limbs is one symptom, for more see Equine Diseases » Lameness » Muscle & Tendon Diseases » Tying Up, Rhabdomyolysis, and Shivers (EPSM).

Narcolepsy is a possibility for the asleep to the point of falling for more on this see, Equine Diseases » Nervous System » Seizures & Fainting » Narcolepsy, Cataplexy, and Fainting.
DrO
Member:
Astbury

Posted on Friday, Jan 7, 2005 - 5:06 pm:

Hi

Sounds like wobbler synDrOme to me - i.e. "Shivers". My friend's horse suffered from it and it comes in various stages. Usually, the farrier will spot it pretty quickly.

Good luck with the horse.

Jenny
Member:
Suzeb

Posted on Friday, Jan 7, 2005 - 5:39 pm:

Hi Sherri,
The things that did come to my mind was:
1. Narcolepsy
2. EPSM or perhaps sore hocks.

I would question as to why this owner didn't have her feet done for 6 months and was there a drastic trimming done prior to these episodes.

Susan B.
Member:
Rose1

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 11, 2005 - 1:11 pm:

Hi Sherri,
What you describe sounds like a stifle injury or aliment. I'm curious as why Dr.O would rules it out?
Regards,
Rose
Member:
Tangoh

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 11, 2005 - 2:22 pm:

Hi Susan,
There wasn't a drastic trimming done prior to these episodes, her feet were actually in fairly decent shape. She had a 1/4 section of land to roam about on and wore them down naturally. In this case, I don't think 6 months was an unreasonable length of time between trims. We have a mare that we only trim twice a year, her hooves just don't grow that fast, in comparison to my tennessee walker, who needs to be trimmed every 4 to 6 weeks.

Rose, I'll let Dr. O. answer your question, but I did want to update everyone. I guess I thought that maybe the 'falling to her knees' and the problem with her feet might be related which made me think more of a disease, but I suppose they could be unrelated and it could be an injury. There's nothing visible that would make us think it was an injury, not that there needs to be.

The previous owner came to see the horse and before she went to the barn she told us that the mare is just lazy, and always has been. This was also her explanation of why the horse doesn't play or run with the other horses. She then proceeded to the barn and haltered the horse. Unfortunately I wasn't there so this is my husband's account of what she did with the new owner's permission. She tried to pick the feet up manually and failed. She said that this is just how the mare was when she was first training her and that she has simply forgotten how to do it. She then put a rope on one back foot, after he told her how our farrier managed the problem. She was able to pull the hoof up and under the horse and after about 3 times of trying to bring it back (mare would put her foot down)and on the 3rd attempt, he said she yelled at her, gave her a swot (not to hurt, rather to alert). The horse then would stand on 3 feet with one foot stretched out behind her. Her explanation is still that this horse is just lazy and needs to learn this task over, but I'm skeptical and am now worried that she simply pushed the mare into doing something that was painful for her. The mare is 6 years old, very willing, very quiet. I just don't know that I buy the story that she simply is lazy and has to 're-learn' how to pick up her back feet. The previous owner told us that this horse has a lot of heart and a lot of try and will keep on giving so now I'm wondering if that's not why the mare just pushed herself to do what she wanted her to do, even if it was painful.

As far as the falling over, she hasn't done this again, at least not that we have witnessed.

Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 12, 2005 - 9:40 am:

Rose, a hallmark sign of a stifle injury is a hind limb lameness, which is not described above.
DrO
Member:
Tangoh

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 12, 2005 - 10:20 am:

And she is definitely not lame.
Member:
Ryle

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 12, 2005 - 10:37 am:

Sounds like this horse is in need of a good neurological exam and then an evaluation based on those findings.

Cindy D.
Member:
Suzeb

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 12, 2005 - 5:35 pm:

Hi Sherri,
If the present owner of this horse is short on funds for the vet, I suppose you could try a short course of bute and see if that makes a difference in the way she picks up her feet. It might rule out pain or training. I don't quite buy the lazy theory either. The previous owner sold her for a reason and that might be performance problems or lack thereof? If anything the "Oil Diet" for EPSM might be another avenue to explore without going through the biopsy and see if that makes a difference although you might not notice anything for about 4 months.
What does this mares' hoof confirmation look like?

It is a possibility that this mare is sore all over, hence a lack of any head bobbing lameness just a slow moving vehicle.

Keep talking,

Susan B.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Jan 13, 2005 - 6:36 am:

A frequent problem on these discussion boards: is it pain or is it training? The fact a holler and a light swat and then the horse would willingly pick it up suggests training to me. Susan's idea of bute is a good one: if it makes a difference pain goes further up the list. To pursue EPSM will take either money or time, though a serum muscle enzyme test is not bad, I suggest you wait until a consistant attempt to train this horse to pick up the feet fails.
DrO
Member:
Tangoh

Posted on Thursday, Jan 13, 2005 - 7:46 am:

Hi Susan,
We have suggested the bute idea to the owner. We're waiting for this bitter cold snap to subside. She doesn't want to drive out until travelling is a little safer. I don't blame her, on the highway at -47 with the wind chill is not a great place to be unless you absolutely have to. She's about an hour away. She wants to be there when we bute her so she can see for herself the effect it may or may not have. Her call...her horse.

Thanks Dr. O. My husband agrees with you 150%. The owner is obviously not going to spend any money on any tests right now, and my husband doesn't think they are warranted yet either. He's been saying exactly what you said in your last post since the get-go. The owner has agreed to let us continue with the training, especially since she has little experience and we'll re-evaluate things again later.

Member:
Suzeb

Posted on Thursday, Jan 13, 2005 - 11:17 am:

Ahhh!, the Great White North. I haven't been out either, unless absolutely necessary. Fighting with a horse is one thing, but to do that in a howling wind, blowing snow and your mobility is reduced because you are dressed like the Michelin Tire Man just isn't worth it. Let's see; -47ºCelsius is equivalent to -52.6ºFahrenheit. Yup, it's cold.
Let us know how you do with this horse when it warms up.

Take care and stay warm
Susan B.
Member:
Vaeqres

Posted on Friday, Jan 14, 2005 - 10:19 am:

Hi Sherri, I guess I'll weigh in with a quick suggestion that you can start now, while it's so cold, and you should know something definite by the time you are ready to work this mare. Get the owner to spring for a very good vitamin/mineral supplement for this mare. There is nothing to lose! At the very least, her underlying health has to improve.
All good health, for all of us Earth creatures, starts with good nutrition. I am not talking about fat/fiber/protein. (That won't help a human very much either - just make you fat.) Feed companies are mainly in the grain business which is Calories or Digestible Energy (D.E.) and Protein, not the vitamin and mineral business (which is called the premix business),and so the fortification they add provides an MDR for a few nutrients IF you feed the 5-8 pounds per day that the feed tags suggest. This is a far cry from OPTIMAL NUTRITION. Even premium feeds will outperform themselves by a country mile if you add a well-balanced vitamin/mineral supplement. It is better, by far, to get a good one that has a complete spectrum because the nutrients will be balanced to complement each other and work together. When you try to mix and match supplements, they can compete and unbalance each other. In the end, you can make a witch's brew and do more harm than good.
Since this is an App mare, she is probably an easy keeper and has not been fed fortified grains at manufacturer recommended levels. Lack of necessary Vitamin E over a period of time will cause neurological problems, which quickly reverse if addressed in time. It's an easy route to try this. If it cures her, well...problem solved! Good luck, Andrea
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Jan 14, 2005 - 10:16 pm:

Virgina Equine Rescue,
it is wrong of you to diagnose a condition without a complete history and examination and somewhat self-serving to then promote a solution, to a undiagnosed problem, offered by the company you work for. I strive very hard to get people to start looking in the right directions, to start asking the right questions, and I strive equally hard to prevent misinformation from getting out. Your recommended suggestions of the same solution. for numerous different problems posted on this board, runs counter to my experiences with horses with disease: mineral and vitamin deficiency are not common problems today, in fact overnutrition is probably the number one nutritional problem today in horses not being abused or abandoned, at least in the USA. You say it can't hurt but the extra expense and the waiting for results before instituting proper diagnostic and therapeutic procedures are real costs and even potentially harmful to the horse.
DrO
Member:
Tangoh

Posted on Monday, Jan 17, 2005 - 7:43 am:

Thank you Dr. O. You have made it unnecessary for me to respond to the previous post. I would have liked to, but my post would have taken issue with the comments personally....thanks for putting it professionally.

New Member:
9999

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 20, 2007 - 12:01 pm:

Hi Sherri. Reading about your Appaloosa mare was like deja-vu. Four years ago I bought a gorgeous nearly two year old filly from the old man that had bred her, and owned both her mother and grandmother. Soon after I got ''Cali''she was unfortunately attacked by another horse, and went over a five bar gate. The only visible injury was a tiny graze halfway down one hind cannon bone, but then things began to get more complicated because the graze refused to heal and was eventually diagnosed as an aggressive sarcoid. It took us ages to get this sorted using an increasingly stronger and more toxic paste made of heavy metals, a sort of externally applied chemotherapy. We finally got rid of it for good when Cali was four and a bit, and we started breaking her in. All throughout everything, including her training, she was the sweetest horse you could hope to meet, though always a little over anxious about new things. We started to compete her lightly, and she was bold and scopey, but it seemed that as soon as we began to ask for regular medium work, she would become ''lazy'' with no energy at all. She would square off the toes of her back feet, and then.... she began to fall asleep when standing being groomed or just dozing in the sun, and down she'd go, often cutting her knees or hocks, so that now we can hardly ever ride her because she's so often recovering from her latest injury.
I'm now wondering if this condition could stem from a possibly undiagnosed hip or spine injury. In fact I'm just off now to do a hock flexion test B.R.B
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 21, 2007 - 6:53 am:

I read in EQUUS last month about a class of horses that do not sleep well and therefore tend to fall asleep when relaxed. According to the article these horses do not lay down, for various reasons, so never get adequate rest. As common a problem as falling asleep in the cross ties while being groomed is,it got me thinking that maybe this is possible but I have to say I have not personally been aware of such a group of horses myself.
DrO
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