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  Discussion on I think someone poisoned my horse.
Author Message
Member:
Sctamaus

Posted on Friday, Jan 21, 2005 - 1:01 am:

Dear Dr. O,
I found my stud colt dead on wednesday morning 1-19-05. He had been DrOpping weight which I did'nt understand, because all my other horses are on the fat side. I separated him from the other horses the night before so he could eat his food without being bothered by the other horses.When I checked on him the next
morning he was dead. There were small DrOps of blood here and there on the snow and he had some blood on his gums and teeth. I found what looked like blisters on the inside of his lip. He would have been 3 years old this spring. I think someone poisoned him because of problems I had this summer with a guy who let him out of the pasture at night. I think he was hoping he'd get hit by a car. The reason for it was my friend told him he was going to use my stud instead of his to breed his mares this spring. This guy is sick to do something like that. I am waiting for the results of a legal necropsy but wondered what you might think.
Thank you,
In Loving Memory of Majeed Amir (Noble Prince)
Cheryl
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Jan 21, 2005 - 7:26 am:

My deepest condolences Cheryl. There are many possibilities that are not related to poisoning. I think the best thing you can do now is keep an open mind until the facts come in. You may not be able to prove poisoning if you cannot discover when, where, and exactly how your horse was poisoned. You should do a thorough search of the stallions environment for anything out of the ordinary. You should also do all you can to document when and where you find potential evidence. Have a nonrelative walk with you as you search, videotape anything before you touch it, and if you find a "smoking gun" don't touch it call the police.
DrO
Member:
Canter

Posted on Friday, Jan 21, 2005 - 8:05 am:

So sorry for your loss, Cheryl. What a tragic loss and I hope you find the answers that will bring you peace.

Fran
Member:
Quatro

Posted on Friday, Jan 21, 2005 - 11:21 am:

Cheryl, how awful for you, my condolences in this very sad time.
sue
Member:
Shirl

Posted on Friday, Jan 21, 2005 - 11:45 am:

Cheryl, My deepest sympathy at such a heart breaking time. I hope you find peace somewhere along the line. I can't think of a worse thing to happen - so unexpected.
Prayers Shirl
Member:
Warwick

Posted on Friday, Jan 21, 2005 - 11:54 am:

Very sorry for your loss, Cheryl.

Best wishes

Sue
Member:
Bethyg2

Posted on Friday, Jan 21, 2005 - 12:31 pm:

Cheryl,
What a terrible thing- so sorry for your loss. Here in Florida there are police officers assigned soley to investigate animal cruelty cases, and I always read about horse cases. Maybe you can call around and locate that person or department and tell them what happened and they can go interview this "creature" who may have done this to your animal. Here that sort of thing is prosecuted vigorously. Maybe the necropsy will give som info that the investigating officer can use in investigating the person. That is what I would do- it may give you some peace to see this person get investigated or even prosecuted, or at least put on record as a suspect.Unbelievable, what people are capable of. -Beth G.
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Friday, Jan 21, 2005 - 1:10 pm:

Cheryl, how horrendous!! I am so sorry. Just from his bloodlines, it sounds like he was a lovely colt. I certainly hope the necropsey results show something.

I hope you are wrong about the poisoning; but,unfortunately, I know how warped some people are. We've had both dogs and cats poisoned in the past; luckily no large animals.

In this state it is still legal to shoot someone who is killing or stealing your livestock, and being the emotional type, that would be my first impulsive response. (But, you must catch them in the act.) If indeed this guy poisoned your horse, I hope you are able to prove it and bring him to justice.

Just to cover all bases, I'd make sure there is nothing else that could have caused this - which the necropsey should do. But, I'd walk the fields, etc. looking for any other possibilities in the meantime - and to make sure there is nothing that could harm the other horses.

Please keep us posted.
Member:
Lorrieg

Posted on Friday, Jan 21, 2005 - 1:11 pm:

Cheryl,
You know how very sorry I am.
We will have Majeed and you in our prayers.
Love,
Your sister
Member:
Lilo

Posted on Friday, Jan 21, 2005 - 2:21 pm:

Cheryl,
My deepest condolences. May you find answers and peace.
Lilo
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Friday, Jan 21, 2005 - 3:53 pm:

Hugs and prayers for peace to you (((Cheryl)))
Member:
Onehorse

Posted on Friday, Jan 21, 2005 - 4:10 pm:

Cheryl:

Your post is extremely shocking and upsetting. My condolences to you and your family. May your Noble Prince be pasturing in a better place.

I hope you can definatively identify the cause of death and, if it is as you suspect, prove the culprit and let the law take over. The advice by all of us is to be sure of what happened before acting.

Best to you, be strong.

Member:
Liliana

Posted on Friday, Jan 21, 2005 - 6:47 pm:

Cheryl,

This brought tears to my eyes, my stud colt is almost three and I can only begin to imagine how you most feel.

Hope you find the answers you need for closure and peace

From the heart
Liliana
Member:
Redalert

Posted on Friday, Jan 21, 2005 - 9:36 pm:

Cheryl, I am so sorry for your loss, and I pray to God that no one did such a horrible thing. But, if someone did such a thing, I hope you catch him and prosecute him to the full extent of the law.(and remember there is a higher law that no one can escape)!
Nancy
Member:
Sctamaus

Posted on Sunday, Jan 23, 2005 - 12:21 am:

Dear Dr.O,Fran,Susan,Shirley,Sue,Beth,Sara,Lilo,Aileen,Rick,Liliana,Nancy and my sister Lorrie,
Thank you all for your thoughts and prayers.
Only true horse people understand the heartbreak of losing a horse. They are all Gifts from God. It may take a while for the results of the necropsy and depending on the results I might have to have more tests done. I will let you know when I find out.
Dr O,
You mentioned that I may not be able to prove poisoning if I cannot discover when, where and exactly how my horse was poisoned. Would'nt any type of poisoning show up on the toxicology? If a person was poisoned I would think when they did the autopsy it would show up, would'nt it? As to searching the environment, we have been getting snow off and on so it's not possible. I believe he would have been hand fed so it would only affect him and there would'nt be anything to find. Are there any specific tests I should have done? I did take pictures of his mouth if that would help in any way, please let me know.
Sincerely,
Cheryl
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Sunday, Jan 23, 2005 - 12:42 am:

Hi Cheryl, how are you holding up?

I know there are some poisons that have a very short lifespan, if that is the right term. We have had both a dog(quite a few yrs. ago) and two cats found dead. All had necropseys done, which the vet said made him think it was poison, but there was none remaining in either blood work or digestive tract.

Dr. O. what poisons are there that a horse would eat willingly? Don't most of them taste bad? With dogs you can put the poison in meat, and cats will eat "laced" tuna or can get poisoned "second hand" from eating a dead rodent, but I'd always thought horses were pretty smart about such things? (Just curious.)
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Jan 23, 2005 - 9:41 am:

Hello All,
Depending on the poison used and the labs ability to detect it, many poisons are difficult to detect on autopsy. An important source of identification often is the stomach contents. If your poison is found, without a clear idea of how it is done you will have trouble building a case. Sara, I am hesitant to put out a list of easily used poisons in horses. The web is full of folks who might try to do evil and I believe such a list, with the ever present power of Google, might help them.
DrO
Member:
Sctamaus

Posted on Sunday, Jan 23, 2005 - 2:06 pm:

Dear Sara,
I am not holding up. This is tearing me apart so badly I don't know what to do. It's hard enough when a horse dies of natural causes but if he was killed by this monster and I can't prove it, I have found no justice for my beloved Majeed. It was hard enough leaving him to have a necropsy done knowing I could not bring my baby home to bury him but I knew I had to so I could find out for him and me what happened, but knowing that I might not get an answer and the waiting is killing me inside. It is taking me a while to type this because it's hard to see the keys through all the tears. My husband keeps telling me to get over it. He of course doesn't understand because he is not a horse person, which doesn't make it any easier. Thanks so much for your concern during this terrible time. It helps to have all of you on The Horseman's Advisor because you do understand the pain I am going through. God Bless You.

Dear Dr.O,
I agree with you on not saying what types of poisons because it would only give the sick demented people more ideas.
Is there any way I could personally e-mail you a picture of his mouth to see if you had any ideas from looking at it. I do not want to post this picture because it would only upset everyone.
Please let me know.
If I do find out he was poisoned does anyone know of any agencies or anyone that I can contact in the state of Indiana that would be able to help in any way. Any information of any kind would mean the world to me. Please e-mail me personally if you need to. My e-mail is cherylg@netnitco.net
God Bless you all and your Horses too,
Cheryl
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Jan 23, 2005 - 4:10 pm:

Cheryl, send the image to horseadvice@horseadvice.com.
DrO
Member:
Liliana

Posted on Monday, Jan 24, 2005 - 12:57 pm:

Dear Cheryl,

Well, yes its true that technology is so advance now that they should be able to find something. I would guess liver secome (appendix) kidneys or even hair would have the evidence, unless and I know this will create a bit of controversy, but a dry beet pellet will swell and choke a horse. I have seen it happen! Its no different that leaving a bit/bridle on the horse and give him a hay net ! same results.

I do so hope you find the answers,

All the best
Liliana
Member:
Sctamaus

Posted on Monday, Jan 24, 2005 - 2:31 pm:

Dear Liliana,
Yes I know a horse could choke to death. All I can do is wait for the results to come in and go from there. It may take 2 to 3 weeks. The Doctor stayed over and waited for us to get there which took around 3 hours. He unloaded him so gently from the horse trailer and was so compassionate that I could never say enough to express my appreciation to this kind wonderful man. I am sending him a letter to let him know how much that meant to me. I know they are doing everything they can to find the cause of death and I will let everyone know when I get the results.

Dear Shirley,
Thank you again for personally e-mailing me and calling me last night. You really touched my heart with your concern and compassion. I will be calling you back soon.
In Loving Memory of your Sierra and my Majeed.
Cheryl
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Jan 24, 2005 - 6:11 pm:

Cheryl,
I received your images and there are no lesions of significance. The small ulcers on the lower gum more traumatic than anything and something you might find in any horse particularly one that has fallen to the ground. There also seems to be a moderate gingivitis but it is focal and not generalized and there is plaque on the margins of some of the teeth that might account for this.

Lilana, I don't think there is any controversy in your statement I too have seen a horse die of choke: it was a bit of poorly chewed apple that lodged in the esophagus over the heart and 5 days of attempts to dislodge it, including one surgical attempt, were unsuccessful. I have seen horses choke on cut grass, grain, pellets, extruded feeds, and hay. We have used a lot of unsoaked beet pulp in the practice over the past 20 years and I have not seen a horse choke on it, but it is certainly possible. As interesting study that involved feeding large number of horses dried beet pulp over a protacted period also did not see a problem.
DrO
Member:
Deggert

Posted on Monday, Jan 24, 2005 - 6:38 pm:

Hello Cheryl,
I am so sorry for your loss, I have been following the posts. I hope there is some closure on this soon for you, I know I would be on a mission too, it is very sad. I also hope it was a natural cause and your pain won't be prolonged by prosecuting etc. I have a 4 yr old arabian stud colt who I love dearly, bred and raised him - you get very attached to the good ones. God Bless
Sincerely, Debbie
Member:
Sctamaus

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 25, 2005 - 12:30 am:

Dear Debbie,
Thank you so much. I would love to see a picture of your stud colt. It would be a ray of sunshine right now. Post it if you can.
Sincerely,
Cheryl
Member:
Dyduroc

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 25, 2005 - 4:58 am:

Cheryl, condolences to you and your family. My wish for you is that you find all the answers you need to put closure to this painful episode.

Peace to you and yours.

D.
Member:
Frances

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 25, 2005 - 9:57 am:

Dear Cheryl,

Don't feel alone in this. I'm sure I'm right in saying that all of us on this site can identify with your devastating pain at this terrible tragedy.

Lynn
Member:
Annes

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 25, 2005 - 12:03 pm:

Cheryl,
I know your heartache too because seven years ago I lost my first horse to a sudden unexplained death. I will always have an empty place in my heart but time helped heal the pain and I am able to accept it. I am so sorry for the loss of your colt and I hope it helps to know we all care. - Ann
Member:
Deggert

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 25, 2005 - 4:37 pm:

Cheryl,
I will post a picture tomorrow :-)
Debbie
Member:
Sctamaus

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 25, 2005 - 9:27 pm:

Dear D,Lynn and Ann,
Thank you all for your kind words.
All of you on The Horsemans Advisor are helping me through this time of grieving. I thank each and everyone one of you.
God Bless you all.

Dear Debbie,
I can't wait to see your precious baby. Give him a hug and kiss for me.
Cheryl

I am sending a separate post on the results received this morning.
Member:
Sctamaus

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 25, 2005 - 10:04 pm:

Dear Dr.O and Everyone,
My Vet called this morning with a test result.
I have asked her to explain things in terms I can understand. First off, let me say if I don't explain something correctly hopefully Dr.O will correct it. She told me they found fluid around his heart and in the lungs.Because of the sudden loss of weight his immune system was down. He had a bacterial pnuemonia that causes sudden death, but is usually found in cows. I was told they have a vaccine for cows, but not for horses. They are still running more tests. I will post them as they come in.


Dr.O,
If I have explained something wrong, Please correct it.
Could you tell me if you have dealt with this in horses?
Anything to explain this would help.
Sincerely,
Cheryl
Member:
Redalert

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 25, 2005 - 11:11 pm:

Cheryl, even though you have still lost your beloved horse, I am glad for you to at least be getting some answers. I am glad the horrible man who had previously let your horse out, did not go to the extent of poisoning him. Letting him out was bad enough! I don't think you should worry about "explaning something wrong." You found your horse dead in the snow one morning...something that gave you great alarm and great grief. I have never heard of the type of pnuemonia that cows have a vaccine for, but I am betting that DrO can help you with that, especially as more results come in! Also, as more results come in, you can find more peace about it all... I will be hoping this for you!
Nancy
Member:
Shirl

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 25, 2005 - 11:51 pm:

Dear Cheryl, How very strange for this to happen.
You have mentioned him losing weight. I wonder if the slow growing bacterial pneumonia caused this or it was something else that lowered him immune system. Hope you get more answers as they discover more in their exam. Peace be with you my Dear. Shirl
Member:
Suzym

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 26, 2005 - 12:13 am:

Dear Cheryl ~ I have been following your posts along with all the others. I share Nancy's feeling of relief that your beloved baby apparently was not the victim of foul play - which would only cause more pain for you in having to pursue an investigation/prosecution of this person without any guarantee of the outcome.

I understand your grief, since I lost my dear partner of 20 years in 2002 and am still far from "over it." The best vets at Purdue - I live in Indiana too - couldn't figure out what was wrong or how to treat it. Believe me, answers will help. I pray they will allow you to find some peace.

As for me, another young gelding has managed to worm his way into my heart. It wasn't easy, but he's a special boy, just like the one I lost.

Please know that I think about you a lot. God bless.

Suzy
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 26, 2005 - 12:26 am:

Hi Cheryl, I'm not familiar with this either and will be very interested to read what Dr. O. says and what more you learn - esp. since we live in "cow country" with a lot of cows nearby. I wonder if this is something that is more prevelent in beef or dairy or both types of cows? There aren't a lot of things that go from one species to the other.

I'm so sorry this happened to your colt, but I am somewhat relieved that it wasn't your initial suspected man. That would be so terrible; the misery of it would drag on (dealing with courts, etc.) and get in the way of your remembering Majeed in a "good" way, if you know what I mean.

Hopefully, although you won't forget your colt, this will be behind you. And, all of us may learn something that might save another colt. Thank you for sharing all this with us.
Member:
Sctamaus

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 26, 2005 - 1:36 am:

Dear All,
I will have to find out the name for this from my vet. I was researching this and the only thing I could find that sounds right is Bovine Respiratory Disease. I keep coming up with more questions I need answers to. He was in with the rest of the horses until the night I moved him, which I found him dead the next morning. If this is contagious are the rest of my horses at risk?
We don't have cows close by. How did he get this?
Why are they still testing? Do they suspect something else too? We all as horse owners need more information. If it could keep from someone else losing a horse, at least some good would come from this tragedy.

Suzanne,
I took him to Purdue DDL

I will keep you all posted on everything I find out.
Sincerely,
Cheryl
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 26, 2005 - 8:58 am:

I know everyone is chomping at the bit for this but until we know the name of the bacteria and the exact nature of the lesions found, there is not much I can say.

I have not ever had a "peracute" pneumonia where the horse was fine and then 12 hours later dead. I have had colitis cases like this however. There could be 2 mechanisims for this: the bacteria releases a shock inducing toxin or the inflammation was so great that the horse was unable to exchange CO2 for O2. In the former there may not be much struggle but in the second I would expect a struggle. If you will post the documents as they come in I would be glad to help all I could.
DrO
Member:
Chohler

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 26, 2005 - 2:19 pm:

Dear Cheryl I am sorry for your loss.

My arabian mare came down with bacterial pnuemonia last month, she was critical in the space of a day, we had her at the local hospital for 2 weeks before she was allowed to come home.

The only reason I decided she was sick is she wouldn't let me leave her stall and she felt warm. I immediately called the vet as we had been dealind with a few cases of sand colic.

I feel like a jack ass that I go in her pen 2 times a day and didn't notice that she was that ill. With the arabs temperment they are good at hiding things till they are very ill. My vet said that it was not common but that it wasn't contagious either.

You might be thinking of interstigial pnuemonia Im pretty sure I spelt that wrong.

All horses are special but arabs are one in a million.

I will ad a pic of my girl after I figure out how to do it.
Member:
Chohler

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 26, 2005 - 4:13 pm:

Hoofbeats From Heaven

A cool breathe behind you ruffles your hair,
You turn to look,
But your friend is not there.

You reach out in your mind,
Searching for him.
And you know that he is cared for,
An angel for his every whim.

Your mind is quietly pleading with your heart,
To let the precious memories go.
But your mind desperately reels,
As your heart vehemently says No!

You despairingly reach out your hand,
Aching for his spirit to glide down and touch you.
Look into your heart,
That's all you have to do.

Far in the distance,
You hear the distinct sound of thunder.
You anxiously look up,
But seeing no clouds, you wonder.

He appears before you,
When you close your eyes.
But when you open them,
He disappears back to heaven,
An angel in disguise.

You hear the noise again,
And you look up to heaven.
There you see white clouds,
In their number, seven.

As you watch, they merge,
Creating an image you know.
And as you continue staring,
His image begins to show.

There your friend is,
Glorious in fluffy white.
An additional cloud forms,
His Angel Wings of might.

Then you know that the sound you heard,
Wasn't thunder at all.
It was your friend arriving,
Giving you a call.

The hoof beats as he approaches,
And down your face they wash,
Those happy, joyous tears.

You spend the day with your friend,
Knowing he'll eventually go.
Back to the heaven from which he came,
And from which again he will show.

As the thunder-like hoof beats,
Roll happily over the land.
You know his hoof prints are in your heart,
Pressed forever there like prints in the sand.

As time passes by,
Days turn to years,
You'll always remember him,
With happy and sad tears.

With the hoof prints on your heart,
You will never disregard.
The days the hoof beats from heaven came,
A heaven-sent greeting card.
Written by Sara Bercier
I found this on www.hoofbeats-in-heaven.com very nice website


this is my girl
mi tai
Member:
Sctamaus

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 26, 2005 - 9:22 pm:

Dear Cheryl,
She's beautiful. Thanks so much for your kind words and the wonderful poem.

I spoke with my vet this morning and she could'nt remember what it was called. She asked me to wait till all the results are in and then she would go over them with me. She will give me all the test results they mail to her when they are completely done.
Well, I guess it's going to be a long wait for all of us.

Dr.O,
Thank you. I will post the documents when I receive them.
Sincerely,
Cheryl
Member:
Shirl

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 26, 2005 - 9:58 pm:

Cheryl H: That is the most beautiful message/poem I've yet to read. It even helps me 3 months after my Sierra passed. And your girl is just gorgeous. She reminds me of Sierra so much, color wise. What breed is she?
And Cheryl G, hope this wonderful posting from Cheryl H. helps you heal a tiny bit. Love, Shirl
Member:
Chohler

Posted on Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 - 12:04 pm:

Mi Tai is an arabian out of Mi Khemo Lace x Rave VF who is a brother to Fame VF, she is going to start pulling a cart this spring.

I found the poem at www. hoofbeats-in-heaven.com this is a very good site and has additional sites to go to for those grieving for their loved horses. I cried a few time s myself reading the poems. Stop in and check it out.

I know I only came close to losing my baby, I can't even begin to understand how you feel Cheryl, but I hope your heart will heal soon.

Cheryl H.
New Member:
Camerine

Posted on Saturday, Feb 12, 2005 - 11:36 pm:

Dear Cheryl,
I too feel for your pain at this very awful time, I hope you are able to find peace for both yourself & Majeed Amir (Noble Prince). I lost a very dear friend back in August due to suspected poisioning. I'm am glad your Majeed was not poisioned, tho at this time it doesn't make the pain that you feel any less to deal with, the pain you feel right now does dull after time but I still find myself crying for my dear friend Elwyn.
Both you & Majeed will be in my prayers tonight.

Little Elle

In loving memory of three spirit's who will never die, Elwyn, Majeed & Sierra {for Shirley}.
Member:
Shirl

Posted on Sunday, Feb 13, 2005 - 12:09 am:

Thank you from the heart for including Sierra in your 'loving memory'. I still have tears of lonliness for her and it's been over 3 months.
Love, Shirley
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Sunday, Feb 13, 2005 - 2:28 pm:

I still miss my dear old boy Kellee who died over 10 years ago. He was just such a special horse and we had such a special bond. It is like loosing a member of your family. You never forget them; nor should you.
Member:
Sctamaus

Posted on Sunday, Apr 3, 2005 - 4:31 pm:

Dr. O,
I finally got the necropsy report. They are saying the horse starved to death. My vet and I discussed the report and she told me he couldn't have suddenly DrOpped the weight, that it had to have happened over a period of months. I told her it was suddenly and plenty of other people had seen the horse and he was o.k. There are pages missing but she told me that I have all the pages. I am e-mail all the pages I have to you. I have been doing research on the symptoms and have found a few things that have some of the symptoms. I don't know if they tested for these or not. I am going to call Purdue monday to see if they can do more testing because this doesn't make any sense. My horses get plenty of food. All the rest are fat. I will mention the other things in my e-mail to you. After reading the report if you know of anything else they should test for PLEASE let me know.
Sincerely,
Cheryl
Member:
Canyon28

Posted on Sunday, Apr 3, 2005 - 6:21 pm:

Is it possible that the bacterial illness that your horse had caused him not to be able to process or digest his food properly? If they are saying he starved to death, then he must not have been getting any nutritional value from whatever it was you were feeding him.horses DrOp weight pretty quickly when they dont eat,but it would have taken weeks for him to literally starve to death, I think. Unexplained weight loss is a valid reason for a trip to the vet asap, just as it is in humans. I dont know what happens to a horse that has blister beetle poisoning, but I know they get blisters in their mouth. Also vesticualr stomatitis which is carried by cattle causes mouth blisters. if he was a three year old, his teeth could have caused some blister like contusions on his cheeks, which would mainly be found in the back of his mouth, where ever points might appear.I dont believe you would find any blisters on his gums if he had teeth problems. Blister beetles are found in Alfalfa hay in some parts of the country and are worse in some cuttings of hay than others,depends on time of year. Very sorry for your loss, I know itis hard to deal with.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Apr 4, 2005 - 11:09 am:

Cheryl,
I cannot read the last reports, the jpg image is so small the text becomes garbled, can you resend the actual size or write it out and post it here?
DrO
Member:
Sctamaus

Posted on Friday, Apr 8, 2005 - 11:42 am:

Dr O,
I resent the final report on April 4th. Did you get a chance to read it? I need to know if there are any other tests I should have them run. Cattle growth promoter poisoning, selenium toxicity poisoning, lead poisoning. Please let me know of anything you can think of. All my animals are very well fed, this just doesn't make any sense and is very upsetting.
Thank you,
Cheryl
Member:
Sctamaus

Posted on Friday, Apr 8, 2005 - 11:58 am:

Dr.O,
My pasture is also next to an indoor pistol range. The vents are next to my pasture and they don't have filters in them to catch the lead dust. There is lead all over the back of the building and all over the ground. I have called EPA and have been referred to one office after another. So far, no one will help with this situation. They just keep referring me to someone else. Do you know of anyone who will help with this problem? I am very worried for my horses health and well being. I live in Northern Indiana. I stated in my last post a few things i wanted to know if I should have Purdue run tests for. Please help if you can.
Thank you,
Cheryl
Member:
Eoeo

Posted on Friday, Apr 8, 2005 - 3:42 pm:

This is how you deal with burocracy (sp) Call them again, ask for the name of who you are talking to, what their position is and what you want. When they give you the old runaround, you state that you have called x number of times and had no action. Tell them that if one of your horses dies before action is taken their @ss is going to be grass. That will get a response. I just talked to the road dept for our county that I had contacted half a dozen times in the past six months about getting stop ahead signs installed for a very busy intersection. When I was told that they would have to talk to so and so and some other so and so, I nicely told him I appreciated his effort but if there was a serious accident before action was taken his @ss would be grass because I would let everyone know I had been getting nowhere for 6 months. He will call me back Monday, his name is Sam, and he will coordinate with his boss Vic from the sign shop as to when they can get the signs installed. I told him I really appreciated his help. EO
New Member:
Ginger1

Posted on Friday, Apr 8, 2005 - 11:13 pm:

Perhaps if you indicate that you are planning to have the local news team out to do a story on how no one will do anything about the situation... maybe that'll get someone moving.

Gigi
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Apr 9, 2005 - 2:56 pm:

Cheryl, I don't see them here on my home computer I will check my office computer Monday morning for the resent reports. Once I look at them I will have a better idea if the tests above are reasonable.
DrO
Member:
Sctamaus

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 12, 2005 - 10:45 am:

Dr.O,
Did you check your office e-mail yet? The Necropsy report should be there. Please let me know.
Thanks,
Cheryl
Member:
Sctamaus

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 12, 2005 - 11:15 am:

LKR and Gigi,
Thanks for your suggestions on dealing with the lead problem. I'm sure that will work.

Christine,
Thanks for your post. I have been researching different possibilities but don't know if I'll ever get the answer. I still feel in my heart that the person I suspected in the beginning did do something to him. I recently heard from another person that he had killed her cats and messed with her dogs. This person works at a fairly large plant nursery and landscaping business. I wonder if he possibly used something he got from there. I just don't know.
I thank all of you for your help and kind words.
It has helped so much.
Sincerely,
Cheryl
Member:
Gailking

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 12, 2005 - 8:44 pm:

What a sad and frustrating situation Cheryl. I was talking to my county ag person who handles spraying toxic weeds today about the weeds on my property. One of the symptoms of a new weed I have is to cause sores in and on the mouth and inside the the digestive system. I mentioned reading about your horse to her and asked her if that could cause starvation. She said there are lots of plants that can cause mouth sores and many kinds of infections that can do that also. She gave me the name but I can't remember it. I just thought you might like to contact your local county ag person to see if they might be able to shed some light on what could have happened. I know that it is so frustrating to not know what really happened, especially when you fear the worst. A dear friend had all three of her horses killed under very mysterious circumstances last October and we will never know what really happened. They were all three hit and killed by a pickup truck. The story is much longer and complicated, but the upshot is that she will never have the answers to a situation that just doesn't make any sense. The only thing that is any solace to her is the support and love of her horse friends and the community. In addition to her daughter's retired pony club horse and her own thoroughbred jumper, the third horse was the star of the local Saddle Pals program which helps kids through riding. We started a fund in Satchmo's name and lots of people have sent in contributions. It doesn't bring them back, but it makes their tragic deaths at least have some lasting good in the community. I really hope that you get some answers that bring you some peace of mind. Sincerely, Gail
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 12, 2005 - 11:26 pm:

I don't see them Cheryl, could you resend?
DrO
Member:
Sctamaus

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 12, 2005 - 11:43 pm:

Oh Gail,
That is so terrible. To lose three so tragicly like that had to have taken its toll on your friend. I am so sorry for her. What a terrible loss. Any thoughts on who might have done such a sick thing?
Thanks for the info, I'll have to check that out.
Cheryl
Member:
Sctamaus

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 12, 2005 - 11:49 pm:

Dr.O,
I'll resend them tonight.
Member:
Gailking

Posted on Thursday, Apr 14, 2005 - 4:12 pm:

Thanks for the sympathy Cheryl. I didn't want to go into lots of detail because you have your own tragedy to deal with. I just wanted you to know that not knowing is the hardest part for my friend. She was out of town attending the wedding of her secretary, and her cleaning person was feeding for her. My friend rescued this person from an abusive boyfriend who beat her with a baseball bat so badly that he broke several bones, etc. My friend is an attorney who works with kids and family abuse issues, so she made her cleaning person press charges, etc. The man was jailed and the cleaning woman had a baby by him (she was pregnant when he beat her). After he got out of jail, he vandalized another person who had employed the cleaning person and broke her car windshield and stole some money. We speculate that he may have followed her to the horses. She fed at 4 pm Sat. and the incident happened at 6 am Sun. morning. I don't think she left the gate open because she is conscientious and the horses did not go to their grain and hay which are open in a porch area of an abandoned ranch house. Everyone knows hungry horses go for their food! There was no sign of them milling around, no horse poop, nothing. They did not go in either direction toward other horse buddies on this small country road. Instead, they went down the road where they had never been, made a 120 degree turn, went up towards a two lane highway on a road they had never been on and were all three killed when struck by a pickup truck in the dark and rainy morning. Unfortunately, my friend's husband and son had to try to deal with the three bodies, get the donkey who wasn't hit off of the highway. She would not leave her beloved horse buddy so neighbors showed up with a halter to lead her home. The gate was wide open. My friend double latches and bungies it and the horses hadn't broken anything. The horses didn't even appear to be hurt or bloody according to her husband, but he was beside himself worrying about how he was going to tell my friend. Caltrans ended up hauling off the bodies, so she didn't even get to bury them or say goodbye. My friend's daughter started getting calls from friends saying how sorry they were. She called her Mom who said she didn't know what was wrong either. So driving home over the Golden Gate Bridge she called her husband and demanded to know what was going on. He finally said something happened to the horses. She said well call the vet. He said they didn't need the vet. She said which one and he had to say all three of them. I don't know how she managed to drive all the way home in shock and grief. I just know I couldn't even cry at first as it was so unbelieveable and so tragic. How did they get out? How did they go up to the highway (one was 36 and not too nimble)? We think someone must have herded them up there. How did one truck kill all three and not see the gray thoroughbred who weighed 1700 pounds? After making a police report days later and going through all the scenerios in our minds, no one can make sense out of the whole thing. It turns out that our suspect was back in jail so he couldn't have done it personally. So we have no answers and that is the hardest part of the story besides the loss of horses. The community support and love has really helped her pull through, but she still cries at odd times even at work. When she goes to feed the donkeys, the old halters are still hanging on the side of the barn. It just breaks my heart. I don't even know how she is still able to go out there. I really hope you get some answers to your questions. Only time will numb the sadness. We have accepted that we will never have the answers and that seems to leave the wound more open. I don't want to keep telling horror stories, but I did know of another instance where an angry ex-boyfriend poisoned and killed several border's horses at a boarding barn by feeding them oleander leaves in their grain. I assumed you have already tested your feed, etc. I heard of another local instance where some people bought a trailerload of horse pellets at a good price. All nine of their horses died even though three were taken to UC Davis. It turns out the pellets had fiddleneck in them which is toxic over time and stored in the liver. Unfortunately, nothing can bring your boy back, but not knowing why makes it worse. Let us know if you come up with any information. It is sad to think that there are people who could do something so awful to a defenseless animal. I hope you are able to get some peace at the end of all this tragedy.
Sincerely, Gail
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 26, 2005 - 9:48 am:

Cheryl,
I am sorry for the delay they still were not very readable so I have had to find a way to clean them up and that has taken some time. They are not very helpful, they say they were unable to find a cause to the cachexia (a general weight loss and wasting away). I am a bit interested in why they rule out a primary pericarditis (inflammation of the sack the heart is in) as a possible cause of the disease. It might present with minimal specific symptoms other than depression and weight loss. Other symptoms might be ventral edema (swelling along the belly) and colic. On physical exam fever and abnormalities on auscultation of the heart would be characteristic.

The supprative (infectious) lesions in the skin and lymph nodes are likely secondary to a severly compromised (from the cachexia) immune system.
DrO
Member:
Sctamaus

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 26, 2005 - 11:32 pm:

Dr.O,
Thank you. I was beginning to think you forgot about me. I have used my dictionary to find the definition of some of the words you used but would appreciate it if you could explain this to me in simpler terms that I could understand.
Also, could it still be
a possibility that he was poisoned?
Cheryl
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Apr 29, 2005 - 10:29 am:

I put definitions (in parenthesis) above to the words that I thought might be giving you trouble. It is possible he was poisoned but without a clear idea of the nature of the poisoning I do not know how to prove it nor where to begin testing. Unfortunately the general signs of weight loss and the secondary signs from such wasting do not provide us with a clue as to what it was and I don't know any poisons that result in a primary pericarditis, usually this is do to infection. I wonder if the pericarditis was secondary to the weight loss of the primary disease causing the weight loss.
DrO
Member:
Sctamaus

Posted on Saturday, Apr 30, 2005 - 1:37 am:

Dr.O,
Thank you for explaining everything to me. I do believe he was poisoned by this person and I know I'll probably never know what was used (unless I choke the truth out of him).
I use to have a very good relationship with my Vet until a horse had become ill. She was totally stumped on what was wrong and I found out what the horse had from info on your website.
I mentioned it to her and she got very snotty with me. I think maybe she thought I was stepping on her toes. I have mentioned sugardine to her, which she had never heard of and she said she would never use it on her own horses because bacteria feeds off of sugar. When I told her I was feeding my horses Beet Pulp (along with their grain) her response was, beet pulp is a laxative and causes diahrea and they would lose weight from it. She told me I'm just getting information from any place on the web. I explained to her that I only get information from websites that are ran by a Veterinarian or University. I think it's time for me to get a different Vet who is more Knowledgeable and can listen to me without getting snotty when I mention something. I don't claim to know everything, but I have learned many things from your website and the members on it.
Thank you so very much,
Cheryl
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Apr 30, 2005 - 7:59 am:

Thanks for the kudos Cheryl but I hate to hear the problems with your veterinarian. One of the puposes of this site is to serve as a translator between the horse owner and their vet and we continously emphasize the necessity of a good physical exam to get a diagnosis. Not everyone has heard of sugardine so I would not hold that against her. You could point out that sugar does not have to be protected from microbial contamination, and stays useful for years sitting on a shelf.
DrO
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