This is an archived Horseadvice.com Discussion. The parent article and menus are available on the navigation menu below:
HorseAdvice.com » Diseases of Horses » Colic, Diarrhea, GI Tract » Colic in Horses » An Overview of Colic »
  Discussion on Could Banamine bring about "somewhat" sudden colic?
Author Message
Member:
Brandi

Posted on Sunday, Feb 6, 2005 - 3:03 am:

I have a 9 yo Paint gelding (16.2hh and ~1300 lbs) with recurrent mild colic. He has several (4-5) episodes per year. I have read many of the related articles on the site, but I am still unsure of my situation. He has had rectals on several occassions, nothing significant has ever been found, and though I swore at one point he had entroliths, none of the vets at the clinic would support my concern. Maybe now I'm on to something new...
Tonight as I watch my horse from my window, he is still uncomfortable. This is the second colic in 6 weeks that occured the morning after a dose of oral banamine, a 500-lb dose as preventative, given to curtail possible swelling after an unauthorized romp across the field (he's 6-months into tendon injury rehab).
His typical colic occurs after stress and/or dehydration. This is the first time I was able to connect 2 episodes together with the Banamine (though the December episode also included stress).
The on-call vet at my clinic said that Banamine shouldn't be able to cause this with just an occasional dose (last time he had any banamine was the Dec episode).
But I wonder if it could if he had ulcers. If they are present could banamine cause the pain this quickly? He was scoped in 2003 but it was fairly inconclusive because they forgot to tell me to withhold feed prior...just realized I should have not had to pay for that one. Damn. But what we did see looked perfect.
In any case, I read here that Banamine shouldn't be used in the presence GI ulcers, but I couldn't find out why, or what other choices. This horse has historically gotten banamine because he reacts to bute in this same fashion (colicky after just one moderate dose). And at this very moment I am almost too afraid to give him the injectable banamine to releive his pain because I'm worried that I may be doing more harm than good (though the injectable does make him more comfortable during these episodes).
Then again he never stops eating, colicky or otherwise, which contradicts the ulcer idea, right?
Recommendations Dr. O. or anyone?
Thank you.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Feb 6, 2005 - 10:26 am:

What is your horse doing out there Brandi that makes you think he is uncomfortable?
DrO
Member:
Brandi

Posted on Sunday, Feb 6, 2005 - 8:07 pm:

He lies down, groans and looks at his sides. If he is standing and I press his sides gently, he gives me a look that makes be believe that it hurts (like "do that any harder and you'll be sorry"). He was up and down a fair amount yesterday, which is very abnormal for him. TPR all was normal, gut sounds slow but existent. At midnight I decided to give him the IM banamine because he had started to sweat...which is a more significant symptom than his previous bouts (but I was more willing to give the banamine in previous episodes. One unusual thing about last night was that his tongue was darker than ususal--not bubblegum pink but more red (CRT was good), my "on-call vet" said based on his other symptoms, or lack thereof, that it wasn't significant, or anything he was familiar with. Today my boy has been up all day and I gradually gave him a decent-sized breakfast, which never seemed to cause him pain, whereas a meal will almost always put him on the ground if he's "iffy".
Does any of this help?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Feb 7, 2005 - 7:50 am:

If we assume there is a real effect of oral NSAID's upsetting your horses stomach and that the endoscopic exam was inconclusive, it seems trying a antiulcer regimen is sensible but I would continue to keep the other possibilities listed in the Overview of Colic article in mind.
DrO
Member:
Deggert

Posted on Monday, Feb 7, 2005 - 1:47 pm:

Hi Brandi and Dr O
I have an ulcer post under " ulcers and post colic surgery". My gelding is almost 2 years post surgery. The think what caught my attention about your horses symptoms was a meal putting him on the ground. This is so typical of the symptoms I have observed in my horse, the other interesting thing that will put them on the ground is tubing with mineral oil. I am going to re post under my discussion as I have questions and my geldig has had a little episode this weekend. I did want to say that I have had to manage his initial colics (even if caused by ulcers) with small doses of banamine so I can get him comfortable so he will take care of himself, I also immediately start him on ranitidine - 3000mg three times a day. Hope all works out, this is a very frustrating condition.
Debbie
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Monday, Feb 7, 2005 - 2:15 pm:

Hi Brandi, good luck. The more I read the more I wonder if my horse has ulcers.

Debbie, does ranitidine FIX the ulcer or is it just preventative maintenance?
Member:
Deggert

Posted on Monday, Feb 7, 2005 - 2:56 pm:

Hi Aileen,
The million dollar question. I don't know. Dr O says that it probably does not cure it. I have had recurrences of his symptoms after long term treatment with Ranitidine but once it was 7 months later and this time it was 3 months later.
I am heading back to post under the "post colic surgery ulcers". Maybe he was healed but it takes very little to start his ulcers again. I have so much money in to this horse and I cannot spend 1000 to 2000 to treat with gastrogard. I have found it for 30 dollars, and even at half dose ( if it cures at that dose) it is probibitive for an 8 week treatment. One of the vets at our practice told me that 8 weeks at pasture cured most horses as effectively, but, grass pastures are in short supply in southern Calif. Ranitidine costs me $3 a day at the 3000 mg tid dose. This is what the surgical facility had me use for a therapeutic dose.
What are your horses's symptoms, Aileen?
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 8, 2005 - 10:25 am:

Hi Debbie,

My horses symptoms consist of:

recurrent mild colic
Not wolfing down his food as he normally does
unreasonable spookiness (for him)
and just plain pissy - for lack of a better word

He has some but definately not all of the ulcer symptoms. He has gotten increasingly better over the last two weeks...much more mellow...another pissy episode for the last couple of days, but not spooky.

However, he has also been able to graze for 12 hours a day. I think the two combined are helping him a bit. I would love to have another couple of acres of pasture, but it's just not in the cards for me right now.


Member:
Deggert

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 8, 2005 - 3:27 pm:

Aileen,
Grazing is probably the best management tool as I mentioned above, at least according to my vets.
My gelding is a little spooky by nature but he is much worse when not feeling well, he is also cinchy. Again, always bloating when I cinch but now he starts to stiffen and although he has never pulled back, he appears to want to fall over.Jeeeeeez I wish they could talk. The response to Zantac though helps with the diagnosis. It cannot hurt to try this for 2 weeks and see what your horses's response is.
Good luck
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 9, 2005 - 8:34 am:

Brandi,
while answering another post it occured to me one possible solution to your quandry is the use of Bucospam for the treatment of recurrent colic not associated with impaction, see Equine Medications and Nutriceuticals » Miscellaneous Drugs » Buscospan for Colic for more.
DrO
Member:
Brandi

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 9, 2005 - 10:41 pm:

Thanks Dr O, it sounds interesting and I'll mention it to my regular vet...I'm writing up Apache's recent history of these events for his input, since last couple of episodes were just handled by call-ins to the on-call vets. I did discover that my husband allowed Apache to go without water for about 5 hours on the Thursday evening prior to the Saturday morning when I first saw him behave painfully. This aligns perfectly with his history of dehydration-induced colic, but 5 hours, that seems a little crazy, doesn't it? In the past I've added about 1/3 to 1/2 doses of psyllium to his feed daily to "pull" water into the stomach, I think on the recommendation of one of the vets. Did I read that here somewhere too? Maybe I should pick up doing that again.

If he is colicking due to mild dehydration, is his pain likely to be from mild impaction, making the bucospan not a good choice?

Too many questions...thanks Dr O for thinking of us.
Brandi
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Feb 10, 2005 - 9:12 am:

The 5 hours alone would not cause dehydration but if there was lots of hay to eat with no water there may have been an impaction.
DrO
Member:
Finogirl

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 16, 2005 - 8:42 am:

Hi there, I was reading about your mild recurring colic mystery. I have a horse who had recurring colic and was even hospitalized twice over a period of about two years. He had the full round of tests and nothing was ever conclusive. During one mild eposide, my vet finally got to the botton of it. TAPEWORMS. It takes a different test to detect them and for that reason, they may go unnoticed. They ingest a mite from the grass, so grazing may actually be giving him the worms. My vet had me worm him with strongid for three days, and then I put him on Strongid C2X daily wormer. I still paste worm about every 6-8 weeks, as a precaution. This has solved our problem and it has been almost three years since that last episode.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Feb 17, 2005 - 7:07 am:

I have not seen a experiment testing daily single doses of strongid for killing tapes. The old recommendation was to use a single double dose and the effectiveness is thought to be about 93%. Much better are the new products containing praziquantel, see our articles on deworming for more.
DrO
Member:
Eoeo

Posted on Thursday, Feb 17, 2005 - 9:48 am:

We have a 17h TB mare who has had recurrent bouts of colic over the years. I wormed her with Zimectrin Gold. Since we are about to be out of winter here in a few more weeks, I would like to worm all the horses with it. I do have mares that are going to foal and we worm them shortly after foaling anyway, so would using Zimectrin Gold the next day be prudent? That way I will have everyone covered for tape worms of which we have never wormed for in the past. That should take care of the situation for now, shouldn't it? Would the mites, if there were any, survive over the winter, we get down to 0 degrees here. EO
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Feb 17, 2005 - 5:43 pm:

I would use regular Zimectrin, not because I know of a problem but just to be sure then deworm for tapes the following deworming. I am afraid the mites do fine on the pasture over the winter, in fact some of these guys live as far north as the artic circle. There ability to resist the cold is an area of research interest.
DrO
Member:
Brandi

Posted on Saturday, Feb 19, 2005 - 11:11 pm:

Dr. O.
I decided to bite the bullet and do a gastroguard regimen (1 tube per day for 3 days, then 1/2 tube per day for 2 full weeks after that) on Apache (the original patient in this post)...a nice $500 "cross your fingers and hope this helps" endeavor. I could have paid $300 to scope him first (again), but I was pretty convinced at what we would find, and that I would end up spending the $500 anyway.

My horse regularly has lick/bite/scratch marks on his sides, more on the left than the right, and the left is the side he always looks at when I ride him. He is also more cinchy as of late.

My question is this...if the marks on his side are from ulcer pain, how soon might I expect to see them taper off and disappear based on the regimen I described? I know you can't know for sure, but what's your guess?

When I spoke to my vet about the bucospan he said that results were decent but that turnout on grass is the one conclusive preventative (I'm paraphrasing). We have 8 wonderful grazing acres, which are useless to my stall-bound tendon injury victim, but he's mid-way through the trotting phase of rehab, so I'm contacting my ultrasound specialist to get her opinion on turning him back out.

I would love to get him back out on the grass--his tendon has survived a number of rip-snorting, bucking escapes into a 60x100 ft grassy area connected to the barn, which should have set him back but did not, so it's not an easy call right now. I feel caught in determining a "lesser of two evils" situation right now.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Feb 20, 2005 - 10:18 am:

If I were going to run such an experiment I would use the ranitidine regimen for 3 weeks to see if the horse was more comfortable. It is cheaper and tends to relieve symptoms quicker. If it works I would then quit it and if symptoms of ulcers return would then consider the Gastroguard.
DrO
New Member:
Usukus

Posted on Thursday, Feb 24, 2005 - 2:35 pm:

Brandi:
I have deliberately not posted until now, for fear of seeming self-serving. I must immediately disclose my position as president of Freedom Health, the manufacturer of SUCCEED Digestive Conditioning Program.
One major issue affecting many horses is colonic ulcers. A study we did in 2003 is being published in the March issue of JEVS: 88% of performance horses suffer from gastric ulcers, 63% from colonic ulcers and 97% overall. Your veterinarian can describe the likely consequences of colonic ulcers, which cannot be scoped. It is quite possible that colic symptoms may be the result of colonic ulcers in many instances.
If your horse happens to have a colonic ulcer, I would suggest that a PPI (e.g. omeprezole) or H2 Antihistamine (e.g. ranitidine) may not assist and may even act adversely in that you will be inhibiting the production of gastric acid which is essential to the predigestion process. I will defer to any comments Dr. Oglesby may have in this direction.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Feb 25, 2005 - 9:08 am:

Hello John,
You ought to put your companies information in your profile information and then not worry about disclosure it will serve as credentials and we do not mind providing a little advertising for the professionals on the board. We are extremely hard on those who try to push uncertain products on members with a uncertain diagnosis as you may have seen in the past but that is no reason not to join the discussion fray, you obviously bring knowledge to the table.

I agree that the use of any medication, herb, or treatment is going to have unseen consequences, some adverse to the horse's health and all adverse to the pocketbook of the horse owner. Therefore it is essential that before beginning any treatment that the possible benefit outweighs the adverse effects as best as they can be figured.

Concering the higher ph and its effect on digestion in the stomach, in the horse, very little digestion occurs in the stomach compared to other species. Also I am unaware of where the acid aids in digestion of the feedstuffs further down the gi tract. Some of the little bit of digestion that occurs in the stomach may be from fermentation in the upper (cardiac?) portions where a more neutral ph occurs and microorganisms can live. So from that standpoint these medications may actually increase digestion in the stomach. However that is not to suggest there are not possible downsides. It has been suggested that raising the ph might allow pathogens, particularly yeast and fungi, to grow in the stomach and possibly allow pathogens and acid label toxins pass into the pylorus. Experience suggests that if these occur, they are rare.

We really cannot discuss the results of colonic ulcers, at least in the form you describe, if 63% of healthy performance horses have ulcers it is uncertain what the significance of this finding is. I will be interested in reviewing the publication. Moderate to severe colonic ulcers, usually secondary to NSAID administration, result in colic, diarrhea, maldigestion, blood loss, and poor doing. Perforation causes peritonitis, and death.
DrO
Member:
Brandi

Posted on Friday, Feb 25, 2005 - 3:08 pm:

John and Dr. O.,
I have so many aspects to consider it's hard to feel that I'm on the right track no matter what I do, especially until I see real results from something--and then will I even be sure it was from that ONE something??
HOWEVER, I love this discussion and very much appreciate all the information, opinions and ideas to consider. I just wanted to thank you both, and everyone, who offered thoughts, ideas, their wealth of knowledge, and support. This is a great site and an excellent resource.

Thanks,
Brandi
Member:
Rizzo

Posted on Thursday, Mar 3, 2005 - 11:00 am:

Brandi,

I have been through exactly what you are going through with my now 14 yo TB gelding. When I bought him 4 years ago he was in pretty sad shape (he came from a barn with 60+ horses). He would have frequent mild colic episode a few times a month where he would stand, stretch-out and rock back and forth, bite at his sides, lay down, and all the while he would be grazing. If I would give him Banamine it would make the symptoms worse.

I suspected ulcers so I put him on Neigh-lox. It seemed to lessen the frequency of the episodes but they never went away. My vet suggested a course of Gastro Guard, he said if it was ulcers that this should do the trick. A week after finishing the treatment he had the worst episode yet. I called the vet who suggested bringing him to his clinic for an evaluation by the surgeon.

That afternoon he was in surgery where they found a mass the size of a man’s fist at the base of his stomach blocking off the emptying of his stomach contents. His intestines had stretched to about 10 times their normal width. The mass was an old tapeworm infestation, it had developed scar tissue and had been growing in size over the years. The Banamine I would give him would sit in his stomach longer than it should have and irritate it.

I was able to watch the surgery so I knew what was going on the whole time. The surgeon gave me two options: Put him down now or he would do what he could but he only gave him a 20% chance to survive the surgery and the sepsis that would surely follow. When I thought about what this horse had been enduring all that time I knew he had a strong will to live and I had to give him a chance.

It has been 2 ½ years since his surgery, he’s about 250lbs heavier and in the best condition of his life.

Like Deborah said ask your vet about tapeworms, the are a hidden culprit.

Good luck and please keep us posted -Coleen
Member:
Brandi

Posted on Friday, Mar 4, 2005 - 12:55 am:

Wow Coleen, what an ordeal you had. What a great outcome though, congrats for sticking with your boy. I would have to do the same.

Fortunately for me, the Gastro guard seems to be helping. Obviously an episode could occur at any time, but the biting of his sides has stopped completely (we just did the last dose of GG tonight). To add to the preventative measures, I've fashioned 5 tiny paddocks along one of my pastures, so that weather permitting, he gets at least a couple hours of grazing time as a break from his stall confinement (he only got 2 days of it this week so far due to the rain). I will add more paddocks this weekend, as it only takes him about one turn-out to strip the 20x15 area of all of its current thick vegetation. And he now gets enough hay every day that there are always left-overs trampled around his stall--no matter how much it takes. Hopefully his rehab schedule can make up for all that food he eats!

Actually that's a great question for Dr O...Is it possible that he's eating less if he's feeling better? I haven't weighed out any of the portions, but it does seem that I'm giving him reasonable amounts (10lbs?) at each feeding and there has been some waste recently, whereas before he could easily devour 15 lbs of hay and a couple pounds of Sr feed in 10-12 hours and by morning his feeder and bedding would be licked pristine clean of every last morsel and speck of hay dust that his busy little tongue could reach.

Any thoughts Dr. O?

Thanks for the insight Coleen. If he has any recurrence at all, I am definitely going in with the scope to check things out first hand (12 hours pre-exam without food though? That boy will KILL me or EAT me-who needs a tiger? JK). I have wormed 2 times in the past year with Z-Gold, but that wouldn't change what you dealt with I don't think, right? Anyway, thanks!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Mar 4, 2005 - 8:42 am:

Eating less - feeling better. I don't normally associate these two with horses.
DrO
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Friday, Mar 4, 2005 - 8:09 pm:

This is a very interesting thread. I've been very luck over the years and had very few colics; however, you never know! It's great to be able to "hear" all this and learn.

And, good for you, Colleen for giving your boy a well deserved chance.
Home Page | Top of Page | Join Us!
Horseadvice.com is a BBB Accredited Business. Click for the BBB Business Review of this Horse Training in Stokesdale NC