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Discussion on Strange 'smiling' behavior
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Member:
Spencer6
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Posted on Monday, Feb 7, 2005 - 9:17 am:
Cannot find any information, and not sure where to look, regarding strange 'smiling' type behavior. 5 yr old Bashkir Curly/TB cross mare. She pulls her lips back as if smiling. Behavior is often accompanied by rubbing her teeth on the wood. Seems to occur when being tacked up and ridden but has occurred untacked and unridden. We have suspected and treated for ulcers. Horse is also currently slightly lame and we suspect stifles. Is this 'smiling' behavior a common sypmptom of some disorder? Ulcers? Stifles? Neurological? Not sure where to turn for info.
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Member:
Pbauer
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Posted on Monday, Feb 7, 2005 - 1:22 pm:
Hi Mishelle,
I've seen this smiling behavior in two
horses; both of them had colic. The vet
was called, and problem solved...
So, in these two cases, smiling was an
indicator of pain.
Best,
Tonya
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Member:
Spencer6
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Posted on Monday, Feb 7, 2005 - 6:19 pm:
Tonya,
Thanks! That's what we were supsecting. It's my sister's mare and we think she (the mare) may have an ulcer (sister will too soon if we don't solve this  and we know she's got stifle issues. However, she's done it just upon being tacked up...so I wonder if it's a saddle or back issue. Those I know how to solve (been there myself w/my horse.) Anyway, pain/stress was the track we were on so thanks for confirming. Hope Dr. O weighs in here.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 8, 2005 - 6:08 am:
This behavior has a name and is called a flehmen (sp?) response. Yes you can see it during a mild colic but you also see stallions do this when trying to get a sense of who might be amourously receptive, when a new horse enters a herd, when horses taste or smell something unusual, during grooming, around dinner time, and sometimes it is hard to figure out exactly why. It seems often to be a attempt by the horse to gain more information or show interest to other horses, about his environment.
DrO
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Member:
Pbauer
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 8, 2005 - 3:20 pm:
Dear DrO,
The Flehmen response had nothing to do with the two horses in my afore stated post. And, the colic was far from mild! These horses were in a lot of pain. I know it is a contradiction of terms, but they were smiling!
Best,
Tonya
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 9, 2005 - 8:07 am:
Having seen many horses with mild colic doing a flehmen response (pull back the lips creating a wrinkling of the nose and everting the lips slightly, exposing the teeth) but never having seen one smile (pull the corners of the mouth back and up because of humor or joy) I have to assume you mistook what you saw Tonya. When horses become painful to the point they are difficult to control or thrashing on the ground they do not do this in my experience.
Some might say a grimace could look like a smile but even with horses in severe agony I have not seen a smile like appearance.
DrO
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Member:
Spencer6
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 9, 2005 - 8:15 am:
Tonya and Dr. O,
Let me try to better describe the 'smiling'. It's not a 'lip curl' as I call -- in response to a smell or that stud-like behavior. This horse literally pulls the corners of her mouth back and up, exposes her teeth and sometimes rubs the teeth on wood. She also crosses her jaw in combination with smiling.
She did not exhibit any overt signs of colic but we did treat her for ulcers because our local vet said sometimes this mouth thing means gut pain. I care the for horse and have not seen her do this in a few weeks. However, she has also not been ridden due to the weather etc...It will be intersting to see if she does it after a few weeks rest and Gastro Gard when we go to ride her this week. Could it be like humans? Some can curl their tongue and other can't. Could these horses be trying to the Flehmen response but can't? I'll have to ask my sister if this horse is capable.
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Member:
Canyon28
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 9, 2005 - 9:03 am:
I have several horses with close up Doc Bar breeding and they do things like this, but it is just the way they are. They have little mannerisms that are similar to this. Several of them will rub their teeth along the bars of the metal gate when they are impatient at feeding time. I have another mare that will work her face and mouth around in the funniest looking mugs you ever saw on a horse. She only does this when she is nervous or is wanting to be fed. The only horses that I have that exhibit this type of mannerisms are the ones that have Doc Bar as a grand sire or great grandsire. another one of the Doc Bar horses I have will hold her head to the side, like she is listening to you and wondering what you are doing, its kind of a puzzled looking expression and head set. there is absolutely nothing wrong with any of these horses, these are just weird mannerisms they have. But since your horse doesnt have any Doc Bar, and is desplaying this behavior at being saddled, I think the horse is trying to tell you that it is cinchy or its legs are in pain and it doesnt want to be ridden. After treating her with the gastroguard and she is still doing her "thing" I would say its just her mannerism.
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Member:
Chohler
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 9, 2005 - 1:19 pm:
My mustangs do this, one in paticular does it when I do things he doesn't like (saddling,removing halter/bridle) and when i do things he does like (giving him his feed bag). He's a gelding, no hormone probs and no pain, he's just silly, a coulple of my mares do it one likes me to rub her gums for her when she does it. My appy stud colt does it also but he's not cut. None of my QH's or Arabs do it.
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Member:
Pbauer
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 9, 2005 - 4:12 pm:
Mishelle,
Please keep us up-to-date.
Best,
Tonya
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Member:
Spencer6
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 9, 2005 - 7:09 pm:
All,
Thanks for the feedback. I am not inclinded to chalk this up to a strange mannerism. I have not seen her do this over the last few weeks...coincidentally she is not being ridden. I think there is a cause/effect relationship. We'll see what happens next time we tack her up and ride. She does not do it at eating times. The posting about horses that are doing this at feeding times would make me wonder if they have ulcers...they want their food but are anticipating the pain. Guess all we can do on some horse care issues is go with our instincts until scientific reasons present themselves.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Feb 14, 2005 - 11:46 am:
Somehow this DrOpped off my radar. Mishelle could you take a picture and post it for us to see?
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Member:
Spencer6
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Posted on Monday, Feb 14, 2005 - 5:36 pm:
Dr. O,
Sure on the picture. She is still mildly lame (stifles suspected) but we went on a short walk yesterday and she did it again. Smiling and also cocking her head sidewayw. I rode her for about 10 min (my sister was on her for about 10 min too) so I got to observe from two vantage points. Riding her, it is obvious that she is weak and uneven behind. Watching, the smiling began after just a few minutes under saddle (w/rider) and continued the entire 20 min. 
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Member:
Rizzo
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 15, 2005 - 12:54 pm:
I have a QH gelding (Doc Bar bloodline but not close) who does the same thing Mishelle was talking about. Every morning when I enter the barn there he is, head turned to the side, tongue sticking out one side, and then smiling. He'll do it while he is in cross-ties sometimes but I can count on the same expression every morning when I go into the barn.
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Member:
Spencer6
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Posted on Friday, Mar 18, 2005 - 8:38 am:
Say Cheese! Here is a picture of Roulette smiling. Please know that she had done this for over year, untacked and with different bits so it does not appear to be 'bit related'. An update on her progres, she is stronger and more fit and seems to be smiling less and less with every ride. We are begining to think it simply a stress response and will subside eventually. However, she is very calm and eager to be out on the trails. 
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Mar 18, 2005 - 5:33 pm:
Mishelle is there a reason why the bit is pulled so far back in the mouth?
DrO
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Member:
Bethyg2
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Posted on Monday, Mar 21, 2005 - 11:05 am:
Mishelle- Wow- look at those Hollywood white teeth! Looks like she has porcelain crowns. All of my horses have big, brown, horse teeth. Do you do anything to them, or does an equine dentist?
-Beth
PS- I'm no expert in the bit department, and maybe she's making it look tighter than it is by "smiling," but the bit looks like it is pulled back too much.But I have been told my horse's bit is too loose.
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Member:
Spencer6
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Posted on Monday, Mar 21, 2005 - 9:09 pm:
I will move the bit down but this picture may be a little deceiving. She has a good single wrinkle when she's not smiling. I think she actually sucks the bit back when she does this. Know that she has done this smiling behavior UNTACKED -- so the bit is not likely only reason. However, upon reflection...lately she does the smiling only when tacked. On the whiteness -- I know! We do nothing. She is young(5 yrs old) but she does have really white teeth for grass grazing equine!
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Member:
Cindyt
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 22, 2005 - 10:49 am:
Hello...
I also have a horse that does this strange smiling behavior...He cocks his head to the side and crosss his jaw and exposes his teeth..
He is a nervous type horse---and seems to do this when being tacked or when he is eager for something...either to be riden or if I have to feed later than normal.
I think that in my profile he is doing the behavior--the picture is not very good but it sorta shows it. This picture was taken directly after breakfast
After he 'smiles' he will go on normal.
Kinda strange??
Cindy
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Member:
Spencer6
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 31, 2005 - 9:06 am:
Rode her in a bitless side-pull type bridle. She still smiles and cocks her head to the side plus pins her ears when out trotting on the flat or walking up hill. It must be a pain response. We are seeking a acupuncturist who is adept a diagnostics. Had one locally who is a genius but she retired. -- If we determine what this is, I will surely post the result. Thanks to all who posted.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 31, 2005 - 9:36 am:
Thats find Mishelle and we certainly want to know the results but everytime research is done into acupuncture as a diagnostic entity, it fails the test. There is no scientific work to support this use.
DrO
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Member:
Spencer6
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Posted on Monday, Apr 4, 2005 - 9:42 pm:
My experience with this particular DVM turned holistic/accupuncturist/osteopath vet was certainly proof enough for me. He was never ever lame and he passed flexion tests with ease. But he was terribly atrophied through his LD back muscles and his sacral area and was experiencing muscle spasms. Two traditional vets could not tell me why ... and his back continued to spasm and atrophy. Went to the DVM turned accupuncturis/ and she said "go get this horses hocks x-rayed. I am almost certain it's his hocks." I was shocked. He passes flexions, he's not lame, plus he was just 6 or 7 and had been lighly shown. Sure enough, X-rays shows spurs in both hocks. The vet who did the x-rays says this particular practioner has a remarkable accuracy rate. The right hock spur was very well developed and nearly done fusing the joint...the left side was not as developed but on it's way to fusing too. Got him injected in both twice over a period of two years...within a matter of a few months, the back muscled were recovering and I had my horse back. I know science is proof for many...but results in my experience were the proof.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 5, 2005 - 8:26 am:
I too am unsure what happened, horses can be moderately lame in their hocks for years without significant muscle atrophy. So if your horse was not lame the terrible atrophy in the back muscles was not due to the lesions in the hock, a common finding. However congratulations on the recovery of your horse.
DrO
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New Member:
Louwhite
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 7, 2005 - 5:21 pm:
Just wanted to note that my horse does the smiling thing too. He would also grind his teeth, rounds his neck and pull his chin to his chest among other things. He was diagnosed with ulcers and I am treating with Gastrogard (currently searching to see if Gastrogard/acid blocker results in bloating like I read in another post about U-gard). I think some horses are just better at telling us they are in pain. I've concluded that this smiling thing happens whenever anything is up - good or bad. Something else I have wanted to ask: when I bought Charlie, he was a cribber. Free choice hay, nice sized paddock and treatment of ulcers has reduced the cribbing drastically (as has McNasty spray which really works!). However, whenever I feed Charlie a carrott, he goes right over to crib as soon as he is done. Is there something in carrots that disturbs the acid in his stomach or something?
Cheers,
Lou
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