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  Discussion on Horses dying...any ideas??
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Member:
Brenda71

Posted on Monday, Feb 7, 2005 - 2:48 pm:


Two of my friends horses died and they are at a loss as to why, any ideas?
Here is her story:
Karen, horse #1 to die, was almost five years old. She started looking a bit thin, but otherwise healthy, though maybe a bit sluggish. We brought her up to the barn and started feeding her by herself since we were thinking she just may not have been getting her fair share. Her appetite was good and she was drinking water normally. She had just been wormed and the fecal showed no parasites or eggs at all. She had no problems pooping or urinating and the consistency of both was normal. Her teeth are fine ~ just floated right before we got her, about four months ago. Blood counts showed anemia and I can't remeber what else that was off ~ not sure if there was anything else, but there might have been.
About a week later, she started DrOpping weight at an alarming rate. This is when we called the vet and he did the fecal, blood, etc. tests. Despite her DrOp in weight, she actually looked better than when we first brought her in from the pasture ~ perkier, more energy, brighter look in her eyes, ears held alert. So we weren't too worried. She looked to be fine, still eating and drinking well, still passing poop and pee just fine, consistency of that fine as well. She was laying down a bit, but we thought that was just from weakness from the weight loss. We kept up the feed (five pounds of Safe and Sound as per package directions and a cup of oil over it every day, plenty of hay in front of her 24/7, salt and mineral blocks and fresh water) and she kept eating everything we gave her.
About two days after calling the vet, we found her down one morning. We got her up using the bobcat and some straps. I walked her around and she seemed weak, but okay. We fed her and she ate and drank well. She was a bit stiff, but other than that, relatively okay. Vet was called of course, as soon as we found her down and realized she couldn't get up. He showed up, checked her vitals ~ heart rate 44, temp 92 BUT that might have been off since her anus was open for some reason and most likely had cooled things off inside it. That was strange ~ her anus being open atleast an inch across. Gut sounds on the near side just fine, normal ~ absent on off side. Vet palpated her and found the small intestine to be enlarged. But she was still passing feces just fine and still eating. We did find a small spot of fairly bright red (not tarry colored) blood inside one of the "horse apples" she passed right before or as the vet palpated her.
We stood there all trying to figure out what this was. He checked the whites of her eyes ~ they were yellow. He started thinking poisoning. We checked a couple other mares that had been losing weight late last year, but were now gaining it since we put them up by the barn and fed/watched them closely. Both mares' eyes were also yellow. Jaundiced.
After the vet left, Karen went down again. We tried to get her up with the bobcat. Nothing doing. We gave up when it was apparent she was worn out. We propped her in an upright position and gave her warm sugar water and sweet feed per vet's instructions. I also put my bedspread over her since that night was cold. I stayed up all night with her, hand feeding her water and feed and she kept eating ~ never did lose her appetite until she was dead. She gradually got worse, then seemed to get better, then was gone by 6am.
Horse #2, Connie, was a long yearling filly. She's always been sickly since we got her as a weanling. We think she was taken off her mother WAY too early. She's also been losing weight despite me standing there and making sure she was getting plenty to eat. Same thing as Karen ~ down and couldn't get up. All the same signs and symptoms. Same care. We just put her down instead of making her go through what Karen did.
The vet did an autopsy on Karen. He found lesions on her liver and kidneys. He also said that upon disecting the kidneys, he found pockets of puss inside them. No crystallization as in antifreeze poisoning.
Tests on the samples came back negative for Equine Infectious Anemia thank god (what Coggins tests are done for), lead poisoning, eastern and western encephalitis, west nile, rhino and some others I can't remember right now. The vet's talked to every vet he knows about this, including one who's an expert in poisoning cases. No one has any ideas and they all think we're doing/have done the right things to figure this out.
Does ANYONE have any ideas what this is? I'm at a loss here and about to go crazy with worry, wondering if the rest of my herd is going to be okay. We separated out and quarrantined any horses that looked thin or whose eyes looked a bit yellow. There were six at first that looked bad, but we put five more in there that looked borderline. Two of those have gained the little weight back that they'd lost and their eyes aren't yellow, so we put them back with the healthy herd three days ago. The one yearling filly died this morning and everyone else looks like they're gaining weight and doing well with the exception of one 25+ year old mare ~ we got her recently and she could be 30+ or even 40 for all we know. It seems that whatever this is is mostly affecting the weaker horses.
Any ideas? Even a shot in the dark? I'm desperate.

Member:
Ejar

Posted on Monday, Feb 7, 2005 - 3:55 pm:

Considering that a) it's the newbies to the herd getting sick and dying; and b) sick horses get better when they come in and get free feed hay; then my first thought is to look at what's in the pasture.

I'd look for toxic weeds, something that your established herd knows to avoid but that youngsters and new herd members don't know to avoid. I've read about horses having to learn what's OK to eat and what not to eat, and have watched my little herd pick through weeds, completely avoiding some, to the point of spitting out mouthfuls if one of them gets a leaf of the wrong kind.

But then, I would think your vet would know to look at a plant source, and he and his peers wouldn't be stumped by a plant. Of course, there was the whole tent catepillar problem a few years back that stumped everybody, so if a bug can cause a mystery illness, maybe a plant could too.

I suppose if it were me, even with the experts stymied, I would look for a weed in the pasture first, and then move into bugs (think about what tent catepilllars and blister beetles have done).

I hope you find the source.

Erin

Member:
Brenda71

Posted on Monday, Feb 7, 2005 - 5:09 pm:

Thank you! Plants are being looked at but bugs were not mentioned yet... :-)
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Feb 7, 2005 - 7:06 pm:

My condolences to your friends Brenda. I usually don't do third hand diagnostics as second hand is quite speculative as it is but I sense this is your farm? I am afraid the symptoms you list are very general for a horse dying and are not specific enough to be diagnostic. As you have found some healthy horses may be jaundiced but I cannot rule out liver disease, for more see Equine Diseases » Colic and GI Diseases » Mouth, Esophagus, and Liver » Icterus & Jaundice in Horses. Though not diagnostic the atonic anus does suggest a possible neurological disease involving the sacral or lower motor neurons for a list of possibilities see Equine Diseases » Nervous System » Incoordination, Weakness, Spasticity, Tremors » Diagnosing Incoordination, Ataxia and Weakness.

However in your second case you have a clear indication of what killed the horse: the abscesses in the kidneys indicate a disseminated septicemia (blood infection). The next important step to understanding what might be at work would be to culture the abscesses.
DrO
Member:
Brenda71

Posted on Monday, Feb 7, 2005 - 9:33 pm:

Fortunately for me this is not my farm. My crew is so healthy and playful I don't know if they will get through the spring thaw without breaking a bone!! :-)
I will tell my friend to urge her vet to culture the abscesses.
I read information for hours on this site last night and never went the neurological route. I will now.
Thank you!
Brenda
Member:
Cara2

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 8, 2005 - 4:36 am:

Oh dear Brenda, that is so sad and worrying for all the people involved. Reading through your posts I had a sudden idea but I don't know if horses can get this - Dr O?? - liver fluke. Many years ago we had two rabbits and a guinea pig as children's pets. They all lived together in one hutch and ate grass in a large pen, plus were allowed to run free whenever we had the time to track them down and catch them afterwards!! One of the rabbits was a domestic one, the other was born in the wild and rescued by my sister as a 10 day old baby so hand reared by us. The domestic rabbit was seen to be losing weight despite otherwise seeming very healthy, bright and eating plenty. Gradually she started to topple over while eating the grass. We took her to the vet who was perplexed and gave her steriod injections as he felt she was collapsing due to serious loss of muscle. After another couple of weeks she was still declining although still eating etc normally so we decided to separate her from her friends while they were out of the hutch during the day, in case they picked on her. Eventually we decided sadly to have her put down as she was completely gaunt and almost unable to stay upright. She would have been about 3 years old. There was never a diagnosis but talking to a local vet one day he said it sounded just like liver fluke and certainly our lawns did tend to be wet and had at one time been a field used for grazing cattle and I KNOW they get liver fluke. I think they are like tiny little snail things that crawl up the blades of grass and are then eaten. As you say, who would ever have dreamed that eating caterpillars would have caused so much disaster in the breeding world in the US. I hope you get the answers you are looking for and can take some preventative action.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 8, 2005 - 6:26 am:

Horses do not get liver flukes that I am aware of Helen but you are right they are a problem in cattle on wetlands.
DrO
Member:
Brenda71

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 8, 2005 - 9:43 am:

Thank you, Helen, for your thoughts...:-)
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