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| HorseAdvice.com » Diseases of Horses » Colic, Diarrhea, GI Tract » Colic in Horses » First Aid for Colic » |
| Discussion on 3 days of colicking | |
| Author | Message |
| Member: Jojo15 |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 9, 2005 - 12:10 pm: If i could get some input that would be great.Sunday my horse looked bloated, (which i have been posting on her being fat lately in other posts). So i stopped grain, just hay sunday night. Monday morning she wasn't any better and noticed she hadn't drank any water. But still wanting to eat. Vet came out and tubed her found 1/4 pale of reflux in her stomach, gave banamine IV , water, epsom salt, electrolytes. He said their were gut sounds in all 4 quads, gas distention of large colon. And he pulled hard fecal out. Sandy. But not a ridiculous amount. Suspected obstruct of GI tract from sand. 3 small tight mucus manures monday 5 hours after being tubed. She went the entire night and next day without 1 manure. At 7 pm she DrOpped a small pile. Vet showed up and tubed her again at 7:30pm. I gave her a bran mash (added minerals and psyllium very small amount) at around midnight. It is now noon. 15 hours later and nothing. No manure. no urine. no drinking. She is NOT showing any outward signs of pain. but she is also not normal. Bloating has gone done abit. So gas is expelling. No elevated temps. No pawing, nothing to present that she is in pain. I have given no more than a 1/2 pad of hay since monday. and the bran mash. How do i know if she is passed the critical point if there might not be anything in her gut to get rid of. Or why isn't she urinating all the fluids out. Am i passed the critical point but just don't know it? With that much tubing i would expect an explosion to happen. This is so confusing since nothing is happening. joj |
| Member: Sunny66 |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 9, 2005 - 12:37 pm: No more food until she passes at least two healthy stools.My horse couldn't eat for 48 hours once. The vet did say I could let him graze for 10 minutes at a time every 3 hours or so...but no hay. I'd ask your vet though. Good Luck!! |
| Member: Bethyg2 |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 9, 2005 - 1:01 pm: Dear Joj,I definitly wouldn't give any food whatsover, just based on what I have seen many vets do in these circumstances. An x-ray can usually show an impaction, or sand, or at least fluid buildup.Anyway, if it were my horse I'd get IV fluids into her immediately as she isn't drinking- it will make it worse if she isn't getting fluids. Not eating is one thing, not drinking is worse. -Beth |
| Member: Jojo15 |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 9, 2005 - 1:02 pm: The vet came out and glanced at the pile. wrote in his report looked good. it was dark and no light source to really see it. This morning it was no more than 2 handfuls and still too tight for comfort. Still nothing happening. Ex cept everytime she sees me she gets all excited like am i getting fed now? LOL...Aileen its been 48 hours. I did just call the vet. he says not to worry. So i won't. Butits so frustrating. joj |
| Member: Jojo15 |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 9, 2005 - 1:05 pm: Thanks beth. the vet said that she wouldn't be drinking MUCH, since she was tubed twice each time with 10 liters of water. But she is not drinking at all, so i don't know what to make of that. some horses just handle it differently i guess. |
| Member: Deggert |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 9, 2005 - 1:18 pm: jojWas there also mineral oil in the solution she was tubed with? If there was it should be obvious when that comes through. 
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| Member: Bethyg2 |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 9, 2005 - 2:24 pm: dear joj,I am a BIG fan of IV fluids for colic- can't say enough about that. Maybe the tubed fluid hasn't been absorbed properly. With the IV it goes right into the system- and no dehydration. I've seen it done at the clinic, but also dripped over a 45 minute period several times a day, not at the clinic.It obviously doesn't get at the problem but helps them to stay healthy and pass it.-BG |
| Member: Sunny66 |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 9, 2005 - 2:28 pm: I know Jojo, I was doing cartwheels down the center aisle when my guy finally had two good ones. What did the vet say about grazing for short periods of time? Just curious because I've had three vets tell me: 1) let him eat all the grass he wants; 2) nothing at all; and 3) 10 min of grass is ok...Good luck. |
| Member: Jojo15 |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 9, 2005 - 2:55 pm: Debbie, no mineral oil. they don't do that down here anymore. Don't know why. its 10 liters of water with electrolytes and MgSO4 which i believe is an epson salt substrate. 4mgdebomidine/500mg of banamine IV. Double that since they have done that twice now... they switched the debomidine for 250mg of xylazine on 2nd go round...No eating.. bran mash ok. and small handfulls of hay. But only because she is going balistic and stressing out over not getting fed. I thought that would add to the problem... It's 3pm still no manure, no urine and no drinking. |
| Member: Canyon28 |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 9, 2005 - 4:27 pm: you didnt say where the horse was being kept, but if she is stalled or standing around in a pen, you should get her out and hand walk her to get her guts moving. The vets usually say fresh grass because this time of year especially, green grass will have a laxitive affect on them. This is really true if the horse has been on hay for the whole winter. If you live in an area with tape worm infestations, when she is feeling better, I would worm her with ivermectrin gold or equimax, many gas type colics and colics involving the large intestine are being found to be caused by heavy tapeworm infestations, which are very difficult to detect in manure. Most wormers will not kill tapeworms. You didnt say if you had her on a daily wormer or not either, but I know more people that have had nothing but a lot of problems with those daily wormers causing resistant worms to build up in the horse's system. If your horse likes molasses, you might get her to drink more by mixing a little molasses in a bucket of water. |
| Member: Chohler |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 9, 2005 - 5:55 pm: there was a horse that colic'd at the barn I work at and it went on for a week and a half.He was gasy type colic we thought for 2 days on call vet said give banamine, I gave it 3 times a day no real change. day 3 he layed down a lot. miniscule pieces of poop no urine. He absolutely refused to touch grass, he doesn't like it. We took him to the hospital, the on call vet wasn't real thrilled I guess he didn't want to watch the horse who knows. he wanted to send him for surgery but my boss didn't have the money and decided that he was happy on pain meds so wait and see. they had him on IV's which I really like,they use this on my horses if someone goes over 2 days colicy. Miniral oil did nothing, rectals didn't help, then they tried sugar free metamucil, they finally used some type of surfactant done through tubing that started things back up. DrO might know what it was called. I know they had to search for it. Im not sure what this stuff was but it did the trick. You can always just tell your vet that you would feel more at ease if they gave your horse some IV fluid. I hope your horse gets better. |
| Member: Jojo15 |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 9, 2005 - 6:18 pm: i have her in some cattle panels like round pen. big enough for her to walk and move. Small enough where i can watch her manure/water/urine activity. She isn't acting colicky.She is on daily strongid c. I just wormed with a paste 3 months ago for her yearly doses, i think it was quest. I bran mashed her again at 4pm. and put a bunch of mineral salt loose in there. which she drank an inch out of those round buckets. not much. and i just checked and really small manure pile. But still no urine. So the water is staying in to hydrate her i guess. No temp. Gums tacky and lite pink. But at least something came out. How many bran mashes can i give in a 24 hour period... Vet isn't concerned i called at 4:30 to update him. So, i have to just sit and wait. its like she is just on the fence neither going forward or back. Vet did say he has seen this up to nine days of colicking. I hope not. I haven't left the house in 3... |
| Member: Brandi |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 9, 2005 - 7:08 pm: If I'm reading this correctly your horse has gone 72 hours withoug urinating, even after being given 20 litres of fluid?I would be freaking out and calling another vet for a second opinion if it were my horse (I guess that's where Dr O comes in). I have one that colics very easily, but I've never experienced that. Just a guess, but I would think that DrO would would discourage too much bran or too much grass if the horse is not accustomed to it, you don't want to compound the problem by upsetting the gut any further. A small amount of either is probably best. During an episode, I always hand-graze my colic-er after I load him in the trailer to get him to pass at least one good pile...which he ALWAYS will when I do that. At least she doesn't seem in pain, but that's not enough to say that she's safe...Good Luck Jojo. Brandi |
| Member: Jojo15 |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 9, 2005 - 8:53 pm: No Brandi, she urinated alot on monday. more so than normal. urine was normal color too. Tuesday she stopped urinating around noon and i haven't seen a puddle since. so, 30 hours....I am about to try the trailer trick. its not in working order but i can fake it.... |
| Member: Sunny66 |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 9, 2005 - 9:38 pm: Still?? Good idea on the trailer...what did your vet say about 5-10 minutes of fresh green grass? It always makes my guy pass gas and that seems to help.Can you have her trot around for 20 minutes? Easy trot, no sweating just to get her moving? Or is she doing it on her own? You know her the best...just some suggestions...Positive healing thoughts for POOP! |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 10, 2005 - 6:44 am: Jojo, when a regular impaction lets go you get large amounts of stool, some of it hard and mucous covered and much of the later stuff loose. Like your vet I have seen impactions go on like this for a week or more, we don't get sand impactions here however. The important thing is to maintain hydration and with large bowel impactions this can be done with n-g tubing but I think it takes a minimum of 4 times daily to maintain good hydration, see overview for more. Usually moving the horse to the clinic makes this easier.DrO |
| Member: Jojo15 |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 10, 2005 - 7:58 am: Why haven't they offered this... They just are taking a lets wait and see. And offering to come out and tube again.I have been making a soup of water and mash. just enought to give it flavor. and putting salts in it. she is lalpping it up. however won't drink reg. water. did i make a huge mistake in putting a little psyllium in the first mash mix on tuesday night? i am thinking i made things worse. If she doesn't make bowel movement by 4 pm today that is going on 2 days of nothing. She is urinating. Its getting a little darker. jojo |
| Member: Jojo15 |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 10, 2005 - 8:22 am: She manured a little bit. Again only smal and tight. not gloppy like it should be at this point. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 10, 2005 - 9:05 am: As long as she is consuming 6 or 8 gallons of water a day joj I would not worry about the tubing. The small amount of psyillium was not a big deal. If you are having to feed more than a lb of feed a day to get the water in you may be doing harm. Can you make the soup then strain out the solids?DrO |
| Member: Jojo15 |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 10, 2005 - 9:27 am: i have a quart pan for feed. i fill it up with water and then just put in a small amount of mash just to add flavor. by the time she gets it its just brown water mostly.She is not consuming anywhere near 6 gallons. I told the vet i want them to come out again. either tube or see how dehydrated she is and iv her. I am starting to get angry. and feel this apathetic attitude from my vet. I know they are good, but i just don't understand. I pretty much got the impression they offered to come out and tube, if it will make me feel better. Not the horse. am i overreacting to 4 days of this behavior. |
| Member: Oscarvv |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 10, 2005 - 9:35 am: You are not overreacting at all. I am really surprised at the vet's attitude toward the situation.Can you get a second opinion? Keeping you and your mare in my thoughts.... Barbara |
| Member: Sunny66 |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 10, 2005 - 10:03 am: You are not overreacting, she's your baby!When my horse did this I told him "this is one heck of a way to go on a diet!!" Have you tried massage? Can you move her tail around in a circle...it softens up that area and *sometimes* helps things along. If you've never tried the tail... Two hands on the underside of the tail bone, one near the top and one in the middle. Slowly move it side to side. As she loosens up, do figure eights, then do circles when she allows you to. Very slowly, alternating directions. I also do cat scratches on my guys bum...it does help my guy, I hope it helps your girl. At the point of the shoulder, massage in a circular motion. There are two veins that appear to make a Y at the point of the eye. At the point in the Y, do small soft circular motions. All these should be done slowly with only as much pressure as she'll let you. If she pulls away, it's being done too hard. Start extremely light and gradually increase the pressure. (((Hugs))) |
| Member: Jojo15 |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 10, 2005 - 10:23 am: Thanks guys. I have massaged the anus area and she'll pass gas periodically. I just took her for a long walk near some other horses. I gave her banamine if not for pain maybe for a little relaxation of the muscles. Its the first banamine i have given her outside the vet.They are great vets. big clinic. big surgery practice. No time for bedside manner. I live near wellington. They don't get any better. Problem is i have a backyard horse that isn't really showing any signs of pain. Isn't thrashing or needing surgery. Isn't going down and rolling. Isn't twisted. Is slowly dehydrating, but everytime it gets critical she will manure a bit. or pee. I am trying to understand their perspective. I do miss the old backyard vet who would come out and sit awhile. chat with you about options. tell you the scenarios... but that is gone. just ranting. i 'm so tired.... I do know they have a bunch of colics right now. Probably why the wouldn't offer up a stall to my situation. Dr. O its a 5 quart feeder. I am just going to fill her up with water soup. |
| Member: Deggert |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 10, 2005 - 1:09 pm: JOJI think Dr O's suggestion of the clinic might be a good idea so she can get water through the NG tube. Otherwise, I would opt for IV catheter and run in a bolus of fluids morning and night. Also, since I am now an ulcer preventive fanatic, I would start her on anti ulcer meds, zantac, unless you can keep enough food in her stomach to alleviate acid. Just a thought. Hope it all works out, literally, Debbie ps if she like the bran soup, I have had success with it when 3 handfuls of bran were added to gallon and half of water with salt. they have to be hungry which it sounds like she is |
| Member: Jojo15 |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 10, 2005 - 3:38 pm: Well, i'll be.... i am an overreacting jackass... Well that is how the vet just made me feel... Of course she hasn't manured she hasn't eaten. Why haven't i fed her something.... He is not sure what more i want him to do. And 6 manures since sunday, that don't fill up a small grocery bag shows she is fine...was pretty much the conversation. and with the two tubings and the bran mashes she is getting plenty of water. and its impossible for a horse to not urinate for 24 hours. i must have missed it.After that i just glossed over in anger. and can't remember anything else he said. Except he said give her some hay and see what happens. So, that is what i am going to do. From what i know about colics, sand impactions, etc. is that there is a blockage somewhere down the line. small manures that come out are more than likely getting around that blockage, or even adding to it. etc. and that is all i am seeing. small little tight manures. I don't know.. But just to rant... Throughout this whole process i have been courteous and respectful of their time. Not once did i call them out at night or demand service. Gave them a credit card for all services, just do it and charge me. I followed their instructions to a tee. and for that i get to be berated. I hope he is right. |
| Member: Sunny66 |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 10, 2005 - 3:43 pm: OMG. Let her graze some green grass for 10 minutes then find another vet. You poor thing! |
| Member: Ryle |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 10, 2005 - 3:48 pm: Joj,Take a deep breath and remember that vets are human too and sometimes have a bad day....and make mistakes. Then find another vet for a second opinion and have your records transferred so that they know all the history on your horse. If you feel that the first vet isn't giving you good service and that he isn't listening to your comments/concerns, find another vet who will. Especially when you have a major health concern. |
| Member: Oscarvv |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 10, 2005 - 6:25 pm: Argh....I feel so bad for you. Please get a second opinion.I will NEVER forget my vet saying to me 'don't worry, he'll be fine'....less than 11 hours later the horse I thought I would grow old with, that I bucket raised from 6 weeks of age, was dead. Vets are human and there is no way for the vet to properly assess your horse's condition over the phone. Please keep us updated. |
| Member: Hwood |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 10, 2005 - 8:34 pm: Jojo . . . I am following this whole thing with you and feeling your frustration/panic/frustration/hope/frustration/anger/frustration . . .I know you said that your vet is one of the best in the area, and it might seem that there isn't a better one to call right now. Follow your heart and do what you think is best for your horse and for you. That's all you can do . . . |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 10, 2005 - 9:42 pm: Are the vets saying they think the impaction is now passed? Are they saying they don't know so want to experiment to see if started on feed to see if the horse becomes painful again? Do they feel the horse is still impacted with sand and needs ingesta to move the sand? What is their reasoning?If you trust their judgement maybe you should follow their suggestions and if not I agree with above you need someone to help you who can examine the horse so get a second opinion. Though I know everyone here is doing their best to help it really takes someone who can look at the stools, do a rectal, and examine the horse to make concrete suggestions. If the horse is still impacted and not drinking why not make 5 gals of soup and strain the solids out with cheese cloth? I would also start collecting all the stools in a bucket for the vet to evaluate for volume and character when they do come out. DrO |
| Member: Jojo15 |
Posted on Friday, Feb 11, 2005 - 1:13 am: Thanks everyone... tomorrow MY vet who i ask for by appointment is coming out. HE knows my horse. and me a bit better. It was just another vet rotation for emergency calls. Actually he is senior to mine. But obviously finds my concerns a bit pedantic.Yes, Dr. O i have saved every minute itty bitty little manure from Sunday when i noticed the beginnings of colic and her bloatedness. It half fills a 4 cubic wheel barrow. NO one has asked to look at it. i just kept it for my own education. I mean she is getting older maybe her manures are just shrinking with age. YES, i have done what you say with a mesh for mush. or mash. Can you tell i am giddy. I found a few balls of mushy manure in with the tight small ones. But, i am not too excited yet, it was small in volume. But still mushy... This is what i was hoping for. The reasoning for feeding was a gamble, i think. He didn't exactly say that. But i see an arrogance in him. Like just feed her and you'll see. And well no matter how much i don't like this guy. I have to trust them. His initial assessment was sand impaction/ gas impaction of large colon. Sand sounds ventrally. Obstruct of GI tract possibly due to sand. So, i guess he was thinking that the gas did pass, because she wasn't bloated any longer. But i think there is an actual impaction of some sort. still in there. her right side is still too hard, while her left has softened. They know. I don't. And he said that at least if i fed her then we would know how bad her impaction is, etc. I have to trust someone. And i trust this board. Luckily you all are here to be a sounding board. And i am not being ridiculous in my emotions. So i did feed a pad at 4 (and 10 ish i found the "lets do a cartwheel" small pile) and i am throwing her another 1/2 because its going down to 30 tonight. and i don't know what's worse. Not feeding to keep warm. Or feeding even though the vet said its ok. I did all the laymen's tests. temp. heart rate, gum and refill rate are better than this morning. and she finally drank some on her own. Tomorrow i will get another assessment. or slap. |
| Member: Eoeo |
Posted on Friday, Feb 11, 2005 - 9:53 am: This won't help this horse but this is what we do when we have a colic. We are a long way from a vet and so we treat this way until he can get here. We crush up 10 extra strength gas-X for a yearling, 12 to 15 for a grown horse with water or applesauce and give it orally. We also give 10 ccs im banamine. Sometimes just getting the gas to calm down allows things to move. We had to do this to a 17h TB mare for 3 days because it was a weekend and the only vet we could contact was doing emergency procedures on cows, he had one right after the other as it was calving time. We kept in touch with him and kept the banamine and gas-X going so she was comfortable and finally she broke the gas pocket loose and was over it. I would not recommend this as a commong thing, but it worked in this particular situation. She had had gas colics for years before we got her we found out, however, knock on wood she hasn't had one since. EO |
| Member: Bethyg2 |
Posted on Friday, Feb 11, 2005 - 1:01 pm: Dear Jojo,Somehow my post yesterday didn't make it- some computer glitch on my part I'm sure. I wanted to tell you that, since I'm local (wellington area) and quite possibly use the same vets (who shall remain nameless but have initials PBEC-) I can feel your pain. I do not own Grand Prix Jumpers or dressage animals (think, $$$$$) but a beloved stock paint and 2 minis. They are my horse kids- beloved family pets. Just before the hurricane I caused an impaction colic by taking my mini off grass and giving only hay due to the fact that his pasture was under water (should have set up panels on the front lawn.)I was told to "keep watching him" and that "minis are dramatic" and so their symtoms are usually not indicative of a major problem. But you know your horse. I did not insist on bringing the horse in at 10 at night, nor did I insist the next day either when I was told "banamine and grass and gastroguard." The start of the second day the colt was thrashing and intermittently listless and down. When I finally arrived at the clinic- after working hours-, I was pissed that my initial requests to bring the animal in (money was not a major consideration as I maintain colic insurance on my horses)to receive care was dismissed out of hand. I was told that "I see this every day and trust me you don't need to bring him in, he will be fine." Well, the young vet on duty took x-rays and informed me that I should have had him here 2 days ago. Well I steamed up some more.Of course I know that this type of thing is often better when handled conservatively-wait and see approach. But no one was saying, take him to the OR now! No, supportive fluids and round the clock enemas and tubing was what was called for.I am now a stronger advocate for my horses, and am thankful my little guy made it considering that I allowed it to continue like that.I am, essentially, a pest to the vets. Not that I don't think they are brilliant and capable- they are- or that they don't have a world class facility- they do. But you MUST be a strong advocate for being proactive with that supportive care. In my opinion. That's how it works here down in S Fla. Again, IMO.And I understand that this is a very draining experience, emotionally. Just insist on the tubings, enemas, IVfluids, etc.If you have a trailer, great. If not I know a guy who specializes in emergency vet visits. -Beth |
| Member: Jojo15 |
Posted on Friday, Feb 11, 2005 - 1:24 pm: Thanks Beth, i know who you are talking about but i use another group a little smaller. When researching i looked into that group but there are over 15 vets in the practice and figured it was too big for me. and i wouldn't get the personalized care i expect. But now look at me.Ok.. i have had 3 manures ( 1 mushy and good looking the other two were decent but not as good as the previous explanation) since 3 pm yesterday. I have fed 2 pads of hay and 2 mushy soupy mashes (this time i didn't strain). Thats 10 quarts of water and she did drink some on her own about a gallon. And every thing is normal in terms of temp, heart rate, etc... I think we are getting back to normal... today is the clincher. Because of all the manures in such a short time. When my vet called i did say that he didn't have to come out at that time. and would call back if i needed him. At this point, i am getting more info and feedback from HA and you guys... |
| Member: Sunny66 |
Posted on Friday, Feb 11, 2005 - 2:03 pm: Sounds great joj....keep us posted. I wanna do some cartwheels! |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Friday, Feb 11, 2005 - 7:58 pm: That does sound great Joj, usally once they start drinking things are all down hill. If I can't actually palpate the impaction I start feeding once I have the amount of 2 good stools: about a full large water bucket: you should be in great shape from a food impaction stand point the question is the sand.DrO |
| Member: Jojo15 |
Posted on Friday, Feb 11, 2005 - 8:30 pm: Yes... I will have to be more diligent on that front. My yard is a giant sand pit. I will start sandclear more regularily. The hay bag is going up again. But no matter what you do here in Florida there is always sand. The grass grows in sand. And i bought loose minerals salts, and will have to put some in the water from now on. And i am buying a stethsccope. The vet said its a clear sound of the "beach" when there is sand in there. Like a seashell.Not to change the subject but, the water here is so "hard" i wonder how much that effects the intake, the minerals, the deposits, the sand crystallizing, etc. If you saw a water bucket from my well there is always this crusty hard white deposit if you don't clean it properly. She prefers that water over the water from the house. Just one manure during the day, but i liked the size and consistency. So, i will hay again. and feed a do a quart of water with some soupy a cup of equine senior. There is food in and a manure 3 /4 hours later. Which i think is a good sign. Thanks so much everyone. i really appreciate you and this site so much... |
| Member: Hwood |
Posted on Friday, Feb 11, 2005 - 9:25 pm: Whew! What a relief! Good news, joj. Finally, I can get some sleep! ;-) |
| Member: Paul303 |
Posted on Saturday, Feb 12, 2005 - 1:29 am: In our sand paddocks, we leveled an area, lashed together 12 rubber mats with extremely heavy duty plastic ties. We put the hay racks in the middle and, knock wood, we havn't had a sand colic since( 1998 ). Twice a day, at feeding time we let the horses in the barn to eat grain in their stalls, meanwhile, we hook up the spreader and throw our leaf blower on the back. We drive through each paddock and clean it, then blow the mats clean and re-stock the hay racks. The mats hold together well in the sand and just require replacement of the ties when they get weathered and brittle and break. But even when not lashed, the mats don't move more than 3 or 4 inches - which still leaves most of the sand covered. |
| Member: Sunny66 |
Posted on Saturday, Feb 12, 2005 - 9:56 pm: Joj...do you have an update for us? How is she doing today? |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Sunday, Feb 13, 2005 - 8:14 am: I don't think the water is a concern with the sand though it might be with enteroliths and kidney stones: it depends on what the minerals are. You need to know that the sand clearing products have not been shown to be effective, for more on this see our article on Sand Colic. It will give you ideas on how to prevent it.DrO |
| Member: Jojo15 |
Posted on Sunday, Feb 13, 2005 - 11:24 am: She is giving me 6 manures a day right now. three after each feeding. I gave her ES. pellets this morning without a water mash for the first time. and i gave her a full pad.. Otherwise she seems normal. Manure is getting back to volume i normally see.I don't think i have stones. I did think about an enterolith. Is there any definitive way to check for them? She is fine. i just still haven't let her out of the round pen except when i am watching her. She isn't too thrilled being penned... Her left side belly(under the ribs) is still a bit hard while her right side is supple and soft. i don't know if that is something to worry about. Are there any pics of how the intestines sit that i could look at? I will read that article again. thanks Dr. O.. |
| Member: Sunny66 |
Posted on Sunday, Feb 13, 2005 - 3:08 pm: Oh good news JOJ!!!My guy took a full week after the first two stools to come back to normal. I just kept watching him and monitoring his behavior and his bm's. Good job!! |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Monday, Feb 14, 2005 - 6:14 am: You will find images of the bowel both stretched out and insitu at, References » Equine Illustrations » Anatomy of the Viscera and Organs of the Horse » The Digestive Tract. However palpating and balloting the outide of the abdomen does not accurately reflect what is in the bowel underneath, there is too much muscle between you and the bowel.DrO |
| Member: Jojo15 |
Posted on Monday, Feb 14, 2005 - 11:37 pm: Hi all,I am back to manure watch. After the first full feed we only had a 3 manure day... the minute i gave her a soup with mineral salts and some metamucil and a little mushy eq. senior she had a better day of manure..5 decent ones...So, i conclude that a floating is in order quickly. And I don't know if i am out of the clear yet. She is in absolutely no pain. No elevated temps of any sort. Drinking about 2 gallons plus 10 quarts as soup. Any harm in this soupy mash? Should i stop the bran and just give senior really soupy? I am only giving a small cup of bran. with a small cup of senior. i also need to give some electrolytes. Any recommendations? Is purina horse mineral 12:12 good for this? I had bought this for my goats but wonder if this is good. They say it can be given free choice or place in feed. If not what product is recommended. And any other recommendation to get all her nutrients and water up to daily requirements. Also, i was reading the merck vet manual. Why is it they recommend a psyllium use for sand colic?. albeit it was during tubing, i believe. With a warm water mix into the gut for sand removal. Just curious since you mention above that pysllium products aren't conclusive. Or is there a big difference in light usage vs. vet tubing. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 15, 2005 - 8:04 am: Joj, it is time to quit micromanaging the stools and just feed and water the horse. There are normal variations if you worry about every little one you will drive yourseld crazy. Everyone recommends psyillium except those who have read the research that in carefully designed experiments it is not helpful.DrO |
| Member: Jojo15 |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 15, 2005 - 9:52 am: Thanks, Dr. O. I don't think i am micromanaging. I have never really felt she was better. The only way to gauge this is to check manure. take temps, etc.She didn't eat her hay this morning. and has a temp of 102. won't eat water mash, either ... and tried lay down. Calling the vet. here we go again. |
| Member: Jojo15 |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 15, 2005 - 9:59 am: Could this be a poisoning of some sort? She was getting better, till i turned her out in her large paddock. then this morning the signs are starting again. |
| Member: Sunny66 |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 15, 2005 - 10:23 am: Oh Joj, I'm so sorry...this SO sucks!!Would a CBC panel be warranted here? How do you tell if it's poisoning?? Positive healing thoughts to your sweet mare and strength to you!!! |
| Member: Bethyg2 |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 15, 2005 - 10:56 am: Jojo- is there a chance there is an enterolith problem, or some other type of blockage? Would that cause her to get feverish? Maybe she just has a virus???? Can horses get stuff from goats, or has she had exposure to other horses? Cause I hear about "colds" or "flu" running through polo barns, rampant, all the time around here.But of course they come in for season from God knows where. I think if it were a poisoning she'd be more acute, don't you? Do you have many weeds w/ seed heads in your pastures or around your fences? Maybe it is time for a full blood panel, then if that shows nothing, x-rays or even a sonogram of the belly (been there done that....)This will at least narrow the issues. Oh, maybe you discussed this, but what kind of hay have you been feeding? My vets told me to stop hay entirely during the colic episode, which did turn out to be a bad impaction. At PBEC's instruction, I fed complete feed (I think it was Senior) watered down to a mush with warm water, just like you are doing. He missed the hay, and required 4x a day feedings to compensate, plus hand grazing maybe 5 x a day. It was an energy robber for me, for sure. But, it worked and made him loose as a goose! He had been bloated when I took him to the clinic, and in 1 day of this treatment I saw his stomach slim down to normal.-BethPS I spent 2 nights in my horse's stall when he was sick....slept on a plastic chair. Am praying for you. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 15, 2005 - 6:03 pm: Joj, I am reading your posts and you are micromanaging your horses stools but with a fever of 102 obviously something is not right. This fever would not be consistant with a impaction and the amount of manure produced before clearly indicated the food impaction had passed: something else is happening. I wonder if the sand is irritating the bowel? Let us know what the vet finds.DrO |
| Member: Jojo15 |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 16, 2005 - 12:44 am: oh its definitely sand they say. he came out again. tubed and this time tried oil in the mix of water and salts. checked her lungs. Still the same prognosis. This was my reg. vet. finally.Before the vet got here. Bran's fever spiked to 103.5 and i hosed and gave some banamine, this time she was in obvious pain and did not eat. of course, by the time the vet showed up the pain and fever subsided. and he felt that the spike is consistent with sand and the bowel working overtime, etc. He palpated and there was manure in the colon. He does not think poison. And if this continues than we will take a bloodworkup. and he said i could keep feeding small amounts with bran mash/hay. And keep him posted. I am exhausted anyway. i will stop micromanaging the stools. But that is the only way i feel i am helping the situation in some ways. This is all such a hopeless feeling. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 16, 2005 - 7:00 am: I know it is comfortable to have your regular vet back. Do they often see fevers of 103.5 with sand? Have they done a belly tap?I would guess that food intake is important to help pick up the sand and move it along. Too much food causes a impaction. Too little and the sand does not move much. Is this the thinking of your vet? If so I think your continued "mashes" make lots of sense but should be designed to get 6 gallons of water in your horse a day. If it is sand the situation is far from hopeless: it is just prolonged. Get some rest I have had some impactions that just seemed incredibly stubborn only to wake up the next morning and everything OK. DrO |
| Member: Sunny66 |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 16, 2005 - 10:44 am: Hang in there Joj...You are doing everything you can. I too am guilty of micromanaging stools, so don't feel bad. Take care.(((Hugs))) |
| Member: Bethyg2 |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 16, 2005 - 1:12 pm: Jojo-When my horse was in the clinic they showed me the belly x-ray (it was a mini so it fit neatly on the one x-ray.) You can actually SEE the sand laying on the bottom of the intestinal tract where it settled. It shows as a bright area against the darker bowels. At that time the vets said it wasn't enough to cause alarm and that the impaction wasn't caused by it. X-rays obviously can be done at your place- have the vets suggested this so you can at least know whether to pursue the psyllium deal, or investigate another avenue? One vet even told me that you can sometimes hear the sand in the bowels. -Beth |
| Member: Chohler |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 17, 2005 - 1:13 pm: Hi Joj Im sorry your horse is still dealing with sand colic, I live in a desert area, and I deal with it frequently.I followed DrO's recomendations in info on sand colic but we still see it, although not as often. It just takes a little while, I still use the phyllium even though not proven it does turn into a fibrous material that moves stuff throught the gut, but hay does the same thing, so why I still do it who knows. The only thing different that I do is feed my horse cemetidine?(antacid)I do 4-200mg tablets in the morning and 4 in the evening, it seems to aid in easing the irritation and its cheap at walmart and makes me feel better. You can put it in your mashes really easy. Try not to stress too much, you can always tell your vet you want IV fluids just to make yourself feel better. I've seen this for 10+ days before. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 17, 2005 - 5:28 pm: Hello Cheryl,Where do you figure your sand is still coming from? DrO |
| Member: Jojo15 |
Posted on Friday, Feb 18, 2005 - 9:33 am: Thanks, Aileen, Beth, Cheryl.... After the vet came, she has been fine. And haven't seen any discomfort, except for the biting marks on her side. She is bright, coat is getting shiny again, and drinking and manuring (but i haven't checked, ) Is she out of it? i really don't know. But, as Dr. O said, and i realized i can't micromanage. I would love to keep her penned up and watch every manure coming out, but she is getting plenty mad. And She needs the run around. So, i am feeding hay, 2 hours later i am feeding mash/senior. and everyday less mash more senior, but watered down. and from now on with mineral salts to make her run for the water. Till she is floated a nd see if that was an element in all this. I have to remember she is 22, out of shape, and lazy. And these i guess are geriatric things i need to start managing better. Thanks Dr. O, it's funny, i have to say i would listen to your advice over my own vets, and now understand why you sometimes don't answer questions as readily or thoroughly as we like. But i truly appreciate you and this site. I had it up constantly thru this whole ordeal. will keep you posted to progress. thanks joj |
| Member: Bethyg2 |
Posted on Friday, Feb 18, 2005 - 12:18 pm: Jojo,So glad she is better! This sand thing down here really is terrible- I always try to sweep the eating area where I put the hay but my horse drags that hay all over into the sand. Plus he gets it eating grass. One thing I'd love to do is add a whole bunch of good non-sandy fill to my place and reseed...a big project for another day...-Beth |
| Member: Sunny66 |
Posted on Friday, Feb 18, 2005 - 1:20 pm: Good for you for not checking Joj Glad all is working out so well. Now you can rest a bit
|
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Saturday, Feb 19, 2005 - 9:50 am: Thanks Joj,I learned long ago that despite having a long conversation on the phone with a client, often things changed completely when I actually saw the horse. Often the nouns and verbs meant different things to them as opposed to me. Sometimes the adjectives were meaningless: their severe bleeding was a little blood to me or their mild breathing difficulty was a serious dyspnea to me. Sometimes the client just really did not have a way to describe what he was seeing. It taught me an important lesson that really is the core of how I approach this site: never fool myself into thinking I know what is happening and instead try to figure out what the member needs to do next to solve their problem. I know sometimes it looks like I seem am ducking a question but it really is the fear of giving a bad piece of advice because of miscommunications ...but it is rare I don't know how to find out. DrO |
| Member: Rose15 |
Posted on Monday, Jun 13, 2005 - 9:50 pm: Joj....I'm interested in your bran mash, you said bran, senior feed, metamucil. How much of each?do you use warm water? I just need a good mash for an older gelding that sometimes has a reduced amount of stool. |
| Member: Jojo15 |
Posted on Tuesday, Jun 14, 2005 - 11:10 pm: Oh wow... thanks for the reminder.. I need to mash her. The metamucil is something i wouldn't add unless he is really compacted. I was panicking at that point.When i used it, i would just splatter just enough, like a tablespoon or so... (plus it smells good, i used the orange). For this episode above i put 80% water and mineral salts, and then some mash just to make it smell good. So she would drink. She had already been tubed. I made it really soupy. But for regular use i would make it look like cereal. And add the mineral salts to make him wash it down with more water. You don't need to add senior if he is eating and pooping on his own. I just felt that senior had some nutrients she needed at the time. since she hadn't had feed in over a week at one point. Maybe skip a feed and give him a bran mash instead? Now you read the article right? I don't know if the mash was much help with all this or not. My vet said it was an ok thing.. and the article i believe, says nothing is really conclusive. But, brandy loves it. Also if you have never given it before, start small. I don't know if this would shock a horses system if they never get it. and i did use a warm water, by the time i got out there it was probably just room temp. |
| Member: Rose15 |
Posted on Monday, Jun 20, 2005 - 4:24 pm: Joj....my vet DrOpped off a product for me to use on my 24 year old gelding. It is called Equine Enteric Collidal, I've used it for 3 days as a top dressing on his Senior feed and it has raised his manure production to the low side of normal. I'm happy with the results. He has normal size stools with no mucous so for now I'll just keep a eye on him. Thanks for your thoughts on the beet pulp. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Tuesday, Jun 21, 2005 - 8:59 am: Rose what is in the Enteric Colloidal and how much do you give?DrO |
| Member: Rose15 |
Posted on Thursday, Jun 23, 2005 - 6:05 pm: Dr. O...my vet said to use 2 oz. per day divided between 2 feedings. Equine Enteric Colloid is made by Tech/Mix, Inc., I believe it is a prescription product. The guaranteed analysis includes Crude Protein - 4%, Crude Fat - 7%, Crude fiber - 40%, Calcium and phosphorus - 1%.The phone number for the company is 320-562-2740. I also came across a product called Equitea that was used on horses after surgery for colic. You just add it to a 5 gal bucket of water and have an additional 5 gal bucket of plain water next to it and it encourages the horse to drink more. Since my gelding thinks he's a camel I was willing to try most anything to encourage him to drink more.So far I am very happy with the results, my gelding eats his Senior feed with EEC and he is drinking the Equitea, his stools are normal. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Friday, Jun 24, 2005 - 6:22 am: Thanks Rose does the product say what it is made of and the same for the Equitea?DrO |
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