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  Discussion on Lame...again.
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Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Saturday, Feb 12, 2005 - 9:52 pm:

HOWEVER....

This time I don't *think* it's because of arthritis.

He had 30 days of conditioning by a trainer in January. He was going GREAT. Popping over cavaletti, using his back...he has all the right muscles again.

7 days after the conditioning program ended he came up lame...granted during these 7 days he decided he would be a rodeo horse. Every day I came home he was sweating. I noticed he had large knots in the shoulder area in front and behind the bone so I called his masseuse a week ago and made an appointment for today.

I went to lunge him lightly 7 days ago and he was head bobbing...both ways at the trot. Two days later I tried again. headbobbing at the trot just one way...to the right. I had the trainer look at him last weekend and my masseuse looked at him today and they both said what I thought...left front/right hind...compensation.

After the massage today I walked him out, he beat me and I had to jog to keep up with him. He was swinging nicely and using himself. Trotted him out and he was headbobbing...right front this time.

My theory and that of the masseuse is that when she fixed what was the left front/right hind he showed us what else hurt ...right front.

Three days ago I came down to feed and saw his horseball at his feet. I thought --oh how cute, he's playing with his ball -- then he turned around and his right hoof was through the handle of the ball. He was walking around with it on his hoof swinging his leg so as not to hit his other leg with the ball(I had heard some banging on the panels about 3 am but not *casting* banging, so I didn't worry about it. So I'm guessing it had been on his hoof for about 2.5 hours.)

Today after the massage he's headbobbing on a straight line at the trot. It is noticeable now at the walk, but not headbobbing - but it obviously hurts him when he turns to tightly (on his haunches/forehand)

Masseuse thinks to give him a week off and see what happens, better or worse...Obviously call the vet if he's worse.

What do you think? Could the horseball have caused him to sprain his foot? He's bright eyed, charming and glowing, he happily roams his pasture at the walk in a straight line, you'd only know he was off if he turned tightly.

**Forgot to say that he's not swollen and there is no heat.**
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Feb 13, 2005 - 9:06 am:

I do suspect the ball might have bruised something but it would take an exam to confirm this.
DrO
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Sunday, Feb 13, 2005 - 9:32 am:

Thanks Dr. O, do you have an article on bruising? Nevermind I'll do a search

Call the vet now or wait a week? Treatment? Since he's not hot or swollen, I didn't think cold therapy would help. Right? Wrong?

The vet had come out on one of his worst rodeo days and said his legs were nice and tight...so he saw the sweating and said my horse was having fun.

Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Sunday, Feb 13, 2005 - 4:30 pm:

I just put two and two together. Farrier was out the same day I found his foot stuck in the horseball. So hopefully it'll be a quick and easy fix (hot nail, quiked or something) and nothing serious.

Farrier has been called and vet as well, since he's going to be at my friend's house anyway on Monday I'm hoping he'll squeeze me in.

Here's a pic from today, notice he is fully weight bearing on his right front.

feet
Member:
Kthorse

Posted on Sunday, Feb 13, 2005 - 5:15 pm:

From first glace at this picture the hoof mentioned looks larger than his other feet. Am I right or is this just the angle of the picture?
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Sunday, Feb 13, 2005 - 5:52 pm:

No, the massuese noticed that too...here's a front view
front
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Sunday, Feb 13, 2005 - 5:53 pm:

I'm wondering now about the farrier visit and also about him straining his shoulder as he was swinging that ball around for 2.5 hours.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Sunday, Feb 13, 2005 - 9:54 pm:

Farrier called. She said that he was not a happy boy when he was being shod...that means he hurt...however, this was before the massage.

She also said some horses' have one foot larger than the other while they are being rebalanced...which he is.

She will come out and recheck him when she is in the area this week...and hopefully I'll be able to have the vet see him tomorrow.
Member:
Suzeb

Posted on Monday, Feb 14, 2005 - 2:57 pm:

Hi Aileen,
Sorry to hear Brave is having some troubles.

Just out of curiosity, what side of Brave does your farrier start and what side does she end up on?

I am a right handed person myself, so it is natural for me to start picking feet on Laser's left fore and working my way around.

As for the behaviour when being shod, I can relate to that. If there were no issues before, then there has got to be some pain issues. Where?, only a vet can determine, and it takes a farrier that can communicate with the vet to shoe accordingly.

What kind of shoes is she putting on Brave, if you don't mind my asking?

Keep talking and Big Hugs,

Susan B.


Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Monday, Feb 14, 2005 - 8:57 pm:

The vet came out today and he seemed to think that the farrier's bad time was due to my horse's right fore lameness being a three out of five. Every time she picked up a foot she would exacerbate it by 25%. That said, I don't know when his lameness occurred in the last week.

He had no response to the hoof testers on his heels or his sole.

He blocked him at the pastern and he came sound.

He said it could either be a very deep abscess or he has some sort of bruise. He's not leaning one way or the other on this...it's 50/50. He said it's highly possible that as he plays with his buddy over the fence -- he saw him rearing and striking the fence with his foot a couple of weeks ago -- that could be the culprit as well as the horseball. Since he was sound for the entire conditioning treatment, it is doubtful that this is work induced.

So I'm treating it as an abscess and he gave me some herbal balm to draw out anything in his pastern. He's being kept in since he's determined to gallop around once in a while and play with his buddy over the fence. Hand walking only. He'll be back in two weeks to reassess. If he's not better we'll take xrays to be sure nothing was chipped. But I've asked him to xray his feet regardless and he's going to give me a cd with them on it so I can show my farrier.

He also said he was slightly sickle hocked, but if he were doing a vet check he said he would only warn that he could tear a ligament or cartilage (I can't remember what he said) at some point.

Susan, I think she starts with the right fore, then left fore, left hind, right hind...why?

I'm not sure, but they are wide...I know they're not aluminum.

On a side note, he was shaking his head...not all the time just now and then and I had to talk him into letting me clean his ears, so I asked the vet to have a look. Well, he has inflamation in his ear....For anyone...if you have your horse tranquillized, have the vet clean out your horses ears...it was gross! It's going to be standard for me from now on. I thought his ears were clean!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 15, 2005 - 8:31 am:

Though if you see inflammation exam and cleaning is sensible, this is quite rare. Horses do have waxy ears but I think this is a important defense against biting midges. Unless there is a problem leave them alone. I don't clean the ears with the clippers for this same reason.
DrO
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 15, 2005 - 10:04 am:

Thanks Dr. O, his ears are not clipped, I do know that the hair protects his ears, but I DO want all that grime and gook in there? Ewwww

Ok, so I'll leave them icky.


btw, when I clean his ears, it's just to get out eggs and such. What do you recommend to keep out the mites and bugs? Someone suggested to put swat along the edges of the ear...do you agree?
Member:
Suzeb

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 15, 2005 - 11:13 am:

Hi Aileen,

Last time my farrier was out trimming the herd, he could tell who was trimming everybody before. Most of the horses, except mine of course all had a slight lean to of the right side. He did not say this to slight the "other" farrier, but to point out some of the imbalances to the owners of these horses.
I was curious as to why Brave's right fore is larger than the left fore.
That's great that you are able to get an X-Ray cd from your vet so you can show the farrier and rule out any imbalances.
It is true that some horses feet can look mismatched on the outside, but they are functioning correctly on the inside.
I always tell my farrier, I don't want pretty feet, just feet that work .

On the ear thing, I have used "Swat" or "Wipe" on the inside of the ears. I put it on a cloth first so it doesn't run into the ear. Laser does love having his ears scritched .

Speedy healing Brave

Susan B.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 15, 2005 - 6:56 pm:

Back in the eighties we had a very large and active equine 4H group in our county. During a summer when the face flies were horrible, you know the ones that collect around the eyes by the dozens, we ran an experiment for a few weeks on a couple of large farms. On each farm the kids would apply Swat, pyrethrins, and Vaseline on the horse's face. Then several times daily they would count the flies on the faces of the variously treated individuals. It quickly became obvious that vaseline was superior at repelling flies, cheaper, more persistant and if got into the eyes did not sting.

Of course the ultimate repellant is the face mask with ears.
DrO
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 15, 2005 - 9:37 pm:

Can I wipe the vaseline inside the ear...not down into it though - as Susan stated?

The flies aren't bad right now and he and his buddy try their level best to make sure each of them does not have a fly mask on. I have a creek by his pasture and they seem to congregate there. It's fine while he's on stall rest.

He was actually really good about me medicating his ear...granted I have no idea how many DrOps I put in there but as I was massaging the ear to get the medication into the canal, he was more than helpful

I put a sweat on his pastern tonight. First the balm, then the saran wrap, cotton and then vetwrap. Then I did the bottom of his hoof. Balm then figure eight then vet wrap. His shoe seems to be really good at eliminating the vetwrap on his hoof. So I did it twice and maybe...just maybe...the sweat will stay on better and last the whole day

Boys.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 16, 2005 - 12:12 am:

Oops...balm, cotton, saran wrap, vet wrap...

It's warm ...good? It's working?


Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Feb 17, 2005 - 7:39 am:

I would not put anything down in the ear. Be careful with the sweat, mild sweats are usually applied overnight in a standing wrap: a little less pressure than with vet wrap. If your balm is strong you could irritate the skin with pressure or time.
DrO
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Thursday, Feb 17, 2005 - 10:09 am:

Hi Dr. O,

When you said not to put anything down in the ear, were you talking about the vaseline to keep out gnats or medication down the ear? I'll let you know what the medication is tonight. He was swollen about 3.5 inches down from the base of his ear. By last night it was only about 1.5 inches and he was significantly happier than I've seen him in a long time....even on the stall rest.

I did put the sweat on loosely, when I came home it was up around his cannon bone with about 1 inch leeway and the saran wrap and cotton was strewn about the stall.

He seems to take it off when he feels like it because it was on that morning.

The vet said that cotton would be fine but not to worry about sweating it.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Feb 17, 2005 - 6:03 pm:

If you are medicating a infection, and the medications is approved for this use, that would be fine put down the ear.
DrO
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Thursday, Feb 17, 2005 - 10:04 pm:

Thanks Dr. O you are invaluable.

I talked to my farrier today and she's going to schedule some extra time for me so she can review the xrays before he's shod again.

I came home today and he was SWEATY, he had been playing with his buddy. He was only in his little 24 x 16 paddock off his stall, his buddy has a 36 x 30' paddock off his stall run. I honestly didn't think they *could* play that hard in a such a small enclosure.

The horse will be switched on Saturday, and thankfully his owner is around tomorrow so the they'll be watched a little closer.

I took him for a walk and handgrazed him and he was beating me at the walk - not hobbling- still can't turn without being ouchy. So at least he didn't get worse...I hope.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Sunday, Feb 20, 2005 - 9:01 am:

Well I trotted him a few steps for the trainer yesterday...he was off on both front...we think...but worse on the right. Could this just be compensation? I haven't seen him point he has all weight on both front feet when I've watched him.

I'm thinking I'm going to have the vet Xray all four feet for the farrier, just so she KNOWS what is going on...I'm so tired of him hurting.

Should I also have him ultrasounded? He has both the xray and ultrasound machines on his truck.

I talked to the feed store lady and she said her stallion had the same issue. It was just that he was just a tad bit uneven. Once the farrier fixed it he was sound.

Since Brave was being such a meany at the shoeing, I'm holding out hope that this is all it is, but thinking that if I ultrasound him I'll know for sure. What do you think?

Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Feb 20, 2005 - 10:10 am:

You should have a standard lameness exam done so that the location of the pain is accurately identified and let the results of such an exam determine the next step.
DrO
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Sunday, Feb 20, 2005 - 11:14 am:

I had the lameness exam done on Feb. 14, he came sound once the right foot was blocked at the top of the pastern. Hence my confusion -- I'm getting nervous again about the *N* word.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Feb 21, 2005 - 6:09 am:

Aileen,
in order to differentiate lameness of the pastern and the toe from lameness of the coffin joint and navicular region they need to block much lower at the level of the tops of the lateral cartilages. For more on this and how to flesh out lameness of the foot in general and navicular area in particular see, Equine Diseases » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Overview of Diagnosis and Diseases of the Foot.
DrO
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Monday, Feb 21, 2005 - 9:20 am:

After Brave was blocked and was sound, the vet turned to me and said "Is he part quarter horse?" I said,"No, paint." Then he seemed relieved but still concerned.

I think he wanted to determine which leg the lameness was in, but why he started high with the block I didn't question. Maybe to try to save me some money?? I'm assuming the exam will continue on Wednesday.

Thanks again Dr. O, I'll reread the article so I'll know what the vet is doing and what questions to ask.

Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 23, 2005 - 10:00 pm:

Dr. O, do you remember when I was all uptight and concerned about my horse's cancer and you wrote something to the effect that something else would probably happen before the cancer hits him again?

Well you were right...something has happened. My sweet sweet boy has ringbone. Lower...in the joint. Arthritis. I forgot to get the cd of xrays from him.

Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 23, 2005 - 11:20 pm:

I just reread what I wrote and wanted to make sure you knew that it was NOT meant derogatorily in the least. Just that you were right...as always

Can a horse build up immunity to a joint supplement? Someone said this - I think it was my farrier - and I'm curious as to what you think. I give him 6 scoops of Cosequin a day now. I'm wondering if I should switch him to something else comparable (but what?) then go back to Cosequin in a few months.

The vet said that the ringbone was injury related, he could be sound in 3 days, two weeks, 90 days or never. He could become pasture sound...or not. He could become riding sound...or not. It is up to my horse.

I'll be reading your information on ringbone tomorrow..eyes are too blurry tonight.

Thanks Dr. O.

Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Feb 24, 2005 - 9:00 am:

I didn't take it in a derogatory manner at all Aileen just sorry this has happened so quickly as my initial comment was intended to try and ease your mind about the cancer. Your vets comments suggest he is not really sure about what he is looking at, usually the prognosis for lamenes from ringbone (arthritis of the interphalangeal joints) is not so vague. Some forms of ring bone are not the last straw. I went and checked our articles on pastern lameness and arthritis and somehow specific information on ringbone has become spread out in the arthritis article. I think I will put together a specific article on rinbone to pull together the information that has become so scattered about. It will probably be up by the middle of next week.

There is no work to suggest an immunity to the oral joint supplements develops and considering the technical aspects, this is not likely. What does happen is that DJD is a progressive disease that worsens over time. The supplement does not prevent this, it just slows it down, IF appropriate adjustments are made in work load. Some take their horses improvemnts as a sign they can go back to the former work load and speeding up the degenerative process. For our recommendations on the oral supplements see, Equine Medications and Nutriceuticals » Anti-inflammatories (NSAID's, Steroids, Arthritis Rx) » The Joint Protective Treatments.
DrO
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Thursday, Feb 24, 2005 - 10:10 am:

Thanks Dr. O,

In my vets' defense on the vagueness...I had asked for the blunt upfront worst/best scenario so I could be prepared. He knows how sensitive my horse is so it was vital for me to hear the worst scenario. On my invoice, it stated a good prognosis. So I'm holding out hope.

He said it was fairly new, within the last month. He also felt it was injury related. He has been injected with a cortisone/HA/antibacterial cocktail to try to slow down the damage.

I'll be happy if I can get him pasture sound and be able to pony him.

Anybody have a safe/sound/schoolmaster/ponier they want to give me? I'm BROKE

Member:
Suzeb

Posted on Thursday, Feb 24, 2005 - 11:39 am:

Oh Aileen, I am heartbroken for you and Brave .
At least you know what the source of his troubles are.
Fingers, toes and hooves crossed that you can get him comfortable and out of pain.

Susan B.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Thursday, Feb 24, 2005 - 11:50 am:

Thanks Susan, my heart hurts.

Member:
Shirl

Posted on Thursday, Feb 24, 2005 - 1:09 pm:

Aileen, No one knows better than myself how stressful and hurtful it can be when our horses have a problem we can't easily solve. My prayers and wishes are with you. Shirley
Member:
Chohler

Posted on Thursday, Feb 24, 2005 - 2:44 pm:

I wish you were in my area aileen I have a pony filly I would give you..

I wish your horse the best. You should post DrO the cd of the xrays if you can get them.

Best of Luck,
Cheryl H.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Thursday, Feb 24, 2005 - 3:27 pm:

Shirley, thank you so much, it means a lot to me knowing what you've been through.

Cheryl, you are so sweet. I have called and requested the cd and will post when I get it.

I have heard one success story of a 22 year old arabian that was diagnosed at 13 with lower ringbone in both front feet, ridden to first level dressage and trail riding for 8 years - I think. He was retired from competition due to his arthritic hocks...xrays show no more changes to his ringbone. I don't believe his was in the joint. But I'm holding onto that thought right now anyway.

Thanks again to you Susan for your constant support.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Thursday, Feb 24, 2005 - 5:27 pm:

The horse I mentioned above does have it in the coffin joint...so I'm holding on much harder to hope.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Friday, Feb 25, 2005 - 10:46 am:

His right foot is warmer than the other foot - where he received the injection.

I have a call into the vet to ensure this is normal.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Friday, Feb 25, 2005 - 9:45 pm:

Evidently it's "ok", just ice pack it. I had my friend cold hose him today when I was at work and when I got home both feet were the same.

He also said out of 10 (10 being worse) Brave's injury is a 2....so that's great news.

Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Friday, Feb 25, 2005 - 9:53 pm:

btw, thanks for posting the article Dr. O!! If you want to move this thread, please feel free...or I can start a new one when I get the CD.

Thanks again.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Sunday, Feb 27, 2005 - 4:25 pm:

He's feeling better, feisty, wanting to trot/spook/capriole - but yes still behaved - no pulling thank goodness. But he doesn't appear to be lame during these acrobatics and he's no longer on bute, but the vet said two weeks handwalking only since he's had an injury and it needs to heal.

If he's sound...isn't it healed? Or as much as it can be? I'll ask the vet tomorrow. I'm just confused I guess and I want him to be able to go out on pasture...all in good time, I know.

Has anyone heard of Flamoxide? It's supposed to help arthritis/ringbone, etc.

https://www.totalhealthenhance.com/equinehealth.htm

Thank you!
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