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Discussion on Dualing hooves 2
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 5, 2008 - 4:04 pm:
Dr.O. Hank was trimmed again last week. I wasn't able to get any side views because of my knee. I wish I could have because his hoof is really coming along. The founder ridge is taking longer than I thought it would, probably 2 more trimmings and that toe dish will finally be gone.
I did manage some sole views and wondered if you could ans. a couple questions.
1. What is that ridge in his sole up by the toe? It is quite remarkable. Is that what is considered a toe callous or is it a lamenar wedge? or something else?
2. I know from these shots it is hard to tell but does his break over seem ok? He is landing slightly heel first. Thanks
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 9, 2008 - 8:51 am:
Diane I can't really make out what you are asking about. Are you asking about the dark area of the sole that parallels the toe or the horn present? I really cannot make out much detail to define the white line or increased sole production that might be seen in the two conditions you mention. Perhaps a closer view with a bit more light might help. Neither can I figure breakover from the images. To calculate the proper breakover see the article on low heel long toe correction.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 9, 2008 - 6:01 pm:
Thanks Dr.O. The dark part is pigmentation. I cropped the part I'm talking about...the raised, lumpy sole at the toe. Not real confident climbing under a horse right now . Should this weird sole concern me? Thanks
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 12, 2008 - 8:38 am:
We are back to Very hard irregular frozen ground and Hank is doing VERY WELL this time. I will take it to mean that is a good sole ridge . I am also applying the dura sole product whenever I catch him with dry soles....seems to be a very good product. Thanks
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 12, 2008 - 9:38 am:
Diane - the bottom of the hoof looks very much like that of my mare, Moonlight! Her front feet look like that, not her back feet. She has been barefoot for many, many years (13 or 14, I think), and is very sound. My farrier does not think anything is wrong with her feet - she gets trimmed every 8 weeks. My gelding (also barefoot for about 6 years now) does not look like that, he has a nice concavity to his feet. I don't know why they are different, but that is just the way it is.
Lilo
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 12, 2008 - 10:39 am:
Lilo interesting that your mare has that. I thought maybe it was related to Hanks founder. Hank just "grew" this ridge in the last 6 weeks. Has your mare ever foundered? Funny thing that is exactly where all his bruising was last winter. He is not bruising (so far) this winter, so maybe it is some kind of protection. Thanks
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 12, 2008 - 3:28 pm:
Pretty sure that's a sole callous Diane.
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 12, 2008 - 7:32 pm:
Knock on wood - none of my horses have ever foundered. I would so like to keep it that way.
Lilo
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Jan 14, 2008 - 7:13 am:
Diane, I guess I was not clear. The focus is too fuzzy I need a new image with more light and better focus.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Jan 14, 2008 - 5:10 pm:
Sorry Dr.O you were clear. My knee is still injured so taking pics is kinda hard. I did manage some more tonight I HOPE they give you an idea of what is there. They still aren't the greatest for some reason , but the best I could do.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Jan 14, 2008 - 7:41 pm:
Also here is a pic of the front...just to show how diseased the hoof looks below the founder ridge.
I'll be very glad when that is gone. Should his white line be tighter when that is gone if everything is going well? Thanks again
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 15, 2008 - 7:10 am:
Dr.O. I focused in on the diseased part just to show you how "dished" the part under the founder line is. That part of his hoof really is bad. Above it seems to be coming in good I think. Do you think it looks "tighter" above the founder ridge? Thanks
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 27, 2008 - 4:23 pm:
Ok Dr.O. I have this new camera figured out I think. I can semi-bend my knee so I think (hope) this picture will do. I really did clean it off. This ridge in his sole is strange as you can see from the ground in dirt it looks like he breaks over on it. Also if you took a nail and ran it straight thru where his founder ridge is on his hoof wall it would come out in this sole ridge. His white line is still very stretched and looks a little woody. If he has been getting trimmed correctly when that part of his hoof is gone should the white line be better ( I hope). Is there truly a new hoof in there once that is gone? or is that fallacy? My concern with this sole ridge is It doesn't suggest his coffin bone is sinking further? He is 100% sound, even on the packed down icy, irregular stuff....at the moment anyway Thanks
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 29, 2008 - 9:10 am:
DianeE, though I cannot judge whether rotation is ongoing the elevation along the inside of the wall is often seen in soles and rotation is usually accompanied by lameness. Most commonly trimming practices result in such a look.
DrO
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Member:
shanson
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 29, 2008 - 12:01 pm:
Looks to me like there's still some flaring on these feet that needs to be addressed and that the toe could come back some more. The callous may be caused by the way your trimmer is rolling the toe. I'm not sure this is a good thing for your guy. Here's an interesting thread on this subject that you may find educational.
https://www.horseshoes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5061&highlight=callous
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Member:
shanson
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 29, 2008 - 12:16 pm:
BTW, the thread I mention above turns into typical Internet forum fracas after page 3, so disregard foolishness on pages 4+. I think the first pages, though, give food for thought.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 29, 2008 - 12:34 pm:
Yes he is starting to flare, due to be trimmed in less than a week. I have read that thread and it really didn't come to a conclusion, so many differing opinions. The farrier does roll the toe quite a bit, but that is when Hank finally became comfortable. I guess all I can do is go with what has been working. I think the farrier is trying to keep the hoof wall at the toe from bearing weight, at least until the diseased hoof is gone. The theory is loading that toe would cause further stretching.....which makes sense, doesn't it? He does leave the hoof wall in the quarters longer than I like...but it has been too dang cold to get too fussy...I wouldn't want to be a farrier out in this weather! I don't have a heated barn, just a lean-to and the poor guy does get very cold and so do I..
I guess for now I'll be glad he even shows up and try to fix the problems when it warms up. Hank has been doing remarkably well this winter, last year he was VERY sore ALL winter. He will be x-rayed again when the "diseased" hoof is gone.
Thanks
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 29, 2008 - 3:31 pm:
Diane, I think you have answered your own questions when you say Hank is 100% sound. You know, "if it ain't broke....". I believe sole callous is protective, and in Hank's case it being under the tip of the coffin bone, that makes total sense. I would not remove it, or let it stick up higher than the rest of the toe. Personally, the term dubbing the toe doesn't mean the same thing to me as rolling the toe. I consider rolling to be more of a beveling. The photo is hard to analyze and I think it would be a mistake to judge from it. Rest your knee, and for the moment (while Hank is 100% sound) rest your mind!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 29, 2008 - 4:07 pm:
Julie you are right, this horse has me too paranoid!
So rolling the toe will create that sole ridge? Is that what you and Dr.O. mean by certain trimming practices?
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 29, 2008 - 4:21 pm:
Well, I can't speak for the good Doctor, but I mean by not removing too much sole with the hoof knife. I think the callous serves a protective function. Whether rolling the toe causes a toe callous would be speculation I think. My guru farrier, who is a master at getting hopeless horses sound, sees a toe callous as a definite plus. The reason you don't see them on all horses is the farrier pares them away with the knife looking for that scooped out concave sole they have come to believe they can "create" by carving!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 29, 2008 - 6:49 pm:
Dr.O. being an eternal pessimist I googled sole callous and found an article called Laminitis simplified by horseshoes and The Horsemans Advisor.
https://www.horseshoes.com/advice/laminitis/loree1/laminitissimplified.htm
That really is a decent article and it seems to be the way my farrier is trimming Hank....pretty much. Very easy to understand....do you agree with that article? Or is The Horsemans advisor just a sponsor of the site? Thanks
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 3, 2008 - 7:13 am:
DianeE,
From very early on Horseadvice.com and Horseshoes.com have been sister sites however we do not in any way review or edit their content.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Feb 15, 2008 - 7:53 am:
Dr.O. Hank was trimmed yesterday, overall his hooves look pretty good. The white line is still quite stretched. The farrier made the same observation as me. He said the founder "ledge" on his hoof wall coincides with the stretched white line and thinks when that is gone there will be a big improvement. 2 more trimmings he thinks.
The question I have is around mid Dec. Hank was VERY sore, I had the vet out and we never did find a reason for it. Once it snowed he was fine. Yesterday the farrier showed me some VERY bad bruising on Hanks left front it was in the area of the quarters on both sides. The toe area was fine thankfully. Could this bruising have been the cause of his Dec. lameness? Does it take awhile for a bruise to show it's colors on the sole? He seems fine now, but that Dec. episode was strange.
Right front (cursed hoof) looked good...no bruising.
Thanks
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Mar 21, 2008 - 12:52 pm:
Dr.O and anyone Hank was trimmed Wed. I hope you can offer an opinion on our progress. I applied dura sole after his trimming so his sole has some discoloration...there was some bruising present also. He is sound, the farrier thought he looked pretty good. The founder line will be gone next trimming and it appears the toe dish is finally gone. I want to keep his hooves in good order, but I don't know what to think of his hooves, I am not extremely confident in my farrier. He is very willing to learn tho and seems to be doing a good job??? Thanks Sorry about the mud, did the best I could
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 22, 2008 - 9:35 am:
Here are pics of our progression if that helps. He really has improved when I looked at these. I just am not confident we are where we should be.
Oct. 07
Nov. 07
Dec. 07
Mar. 08
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Mar 24, 2008 - 7:21 am:
I agree, the flare is gradually being removed with each trimming Diane.
DrO
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Monday, Mar 24, 2008 - 7:23 am:
Diane, that's a remarkable series of pictures...and huge changes over time! Hank might not be where you want him, but judging from the pictures, you've made great progress!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Mar 24, 2008 - 7:50 am:
Yes the change is remarkable. His toe still looks long, but the farrier took it right to the inside of the white line (I watched). His white line is still stretched quite a bit...but better.
His heels also seem long, I guess it all takes time.
DrO. should the farrier be more aggressive? The slow, but sure method seems to be working and Hank hasn't become sore with the trimmings. I told him I'm not going to re-xray until the white line was tighter, and asked him if he thought that would happen (with no more laminitis) he said it should? Next trimming the founder line will finally be gone and I am HOPING his white line will be much tighter, but am skeptical. If it is not tighter does that mean we need to do something different? I do plan to have radigraphs taken regardless, but suppose if his white line is still quite stretched there won't be much/if any improvement? Which will be rather depressing after all of this. Thanks
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Monday, Mar 24, 2008 - 10:41 am:
Hi Diane, the pictures are great! He's sound, right? His foot certainly looks MUCH better! My two cents is that you won't need to be depressed Hank just may need a bit more of your TLC! From December to March was the most significant changes from what I can tell, that's only three months! Brave's really didn't tighten until almost 5 months I think. Good luck!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 25, 2008 - 6:49 am:
Hank is sound in the pasture and the little bit I have been able to ride him he does well on hard ground too. He gallops around the hills like a race horse (bucks included) and it brings a huge smile to me when I see him racing around. The most important thing is to not let it happen again. The dry-lot is ready and soon will be put to use.. As the hair comes off so is his weight. Last weekend he weighed in at 930# with a lot more hair to go. The grass is starting to green up a little so got to be VERY careful now.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 27, 2008 - 3:37 pm:
If it seems to be working keep on doing it. I don't really no how to comment on your worries over the future if you correct rotation and remove the flare adequately the white line will back up after all it has no choice.
DrO
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Member:
jowidner
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 27, 2008 - 11:43 pm:
Diane,
Just wanted to add that I think that you have made fantastic progress with Hank's feet. All horses should be as lucky as Hank to have such a caring and dedicated owner. Keep up the good work!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Mar 28, 2008 - 5:54 am:
Dr.O. that is my concern, I don't know if he is correcting the rotation and removing the flare adequately? I tend to think he leaves too much wall at the heels, but am not sure. His quarters usually breakout between trims which makes me wonder.
I am going to x-ray after next trim I think, but if his whiteline is still stretched, doesn't that mean there will be no improvement? I just have a feeling we are "close yet SOOO far away" Thanks
Thanks Jo Ann
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 16, 2008 - 7:07 am:
Dr.O. Hanks hooves have gone through some dramatic changes in the last few weeks, since his last trim.
The founder line is at the very bottom of his hoof now and every day now when I pick his hooves his white line looks smaller...it's very weird like it is contracting and drying up. That "toe callous" I was worried about is peeling off? Is this being cause by his hoof wearing down and getting to the normal hoof under the founder line? It is very exciting to watch! I actually look forward to picking his hooves nightly now. He is due to be trimmed the 30th I will try to get pics of HOPEFULLY a normal hoof finally.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 23, 2008 - 7:37 am:
Dr.O. Hank is going to be x-rayed tomorrow. His radiographs in the past have been bad IMO. I told the vet I want to have a bottom marker for sole depth and the hoof wall marker.
I know I can't control how level he takes them, but I told him I would appreciate some good x-rays, so I know how Hank is progressing, if at all.
Should he also have a frog marker? or is there anything else. I know standing square is important and he will be on blocks. Thanks
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 24, 2008 - 7:06 am:
I like to put a thumb tack in the point of the frog to clearly mark the spot. The bottom marker placed in the block the horse is standing on while essential for establishing the plane of the weight bearing surface, sometimes does not well represent where the bottom of the sole is as well as the thumbtack.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 24, 2008 - 3:48 pm:
Dr.O. and hoof gurus I sure would like your opinions on the status of Hanks hooves.
Vet said he was de-rotated...I don't know, but there seems to be a vast improvement. (I HOPE)
X-rays have been taken TWICE. (long story)
I think there is a huge improvement, vet marked point of frog with the opaque stuff, but of course it smeared, at least you can tell where the bottom of his sole is.
RF was taken at a bit of an angle...sigh.
1st set is the bad one from July of last year...3 mos. after his founder.
Today a little after a year since his founder.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 24, 2008 - 3:52 pm:
Oh first one is LF.....2nd one is rt. front on the both set of x-rays
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 24, 2008 - 6:19 pm:
Sorry your radiographs aren't better--I know how much you want to learn from them and have been anxious to see the results. It looks to me like the palmar angle is better and that were Hank's toes backed up and the flare in front gone, the angle of the coffin bone would appear better in regard to the front of the hoof wall. I think I'd be tempted to just take that flare off and get his breakover back. Although the photos from March above of his feet it looks as if the toes are backed up, the readiographs suggest to me more could come off. Be warned, I am no expert at reading radiographs nor am I an expert on feet!! The real deal will be when Dr. O responds. At any rate, you have vast improvement and a sound horse! Well done. Julie
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 24, 2008 - 6:54 pm:
Thanks Julie, Hank was trimmed yesterday, I really don't think it possible to take anymore toe off of him without him getting sore. I always look at his hoof when the farrier is done and he takes it right back to the white line. The x-rays surely make it look long tho...I don't quite get that.
He is landing slightly heel first and to me his break over looks good....tho the x-rays seem to tell a different story. His founder ridge is not quite gone yet. Hope Dr.O. comments also. at least we seem to be on the right road.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 24, 2008 - 8:05 pm:
Hey, Diane, main thing is how well he is moving and looking! Again, you are to be congratulated!(there's several of us that need to get together for a champagne party!!)
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 24, 2008 - 8:58 pm:
Gosh do his new radiographs look that bad. I thought it looked like a huge improvement.
Sara you are right there have been so many success stories here, even when there was no hope. Libby being one of them! I don't indulge in alcohol often, but I think I would for that champagne party...Thanks
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Apr 25, 2008 - 7:19 am:
I think Julie was commenting on the quality of the radiographs not the foot which shows much improvement Diane. There is some artifactual rotation in the first of the new set of radiographs that appears to be caused by the xray beam being either a little high or a little low judging by the appearance of the bottom of the foot. I do think the toes still look a little long and squaring them off would continue to improve the way this horse moves.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Apr 25, 2008 - 7:34 am:
Thanks Dr.O. I don't know why vet can't take good x-rays. He is such a good vet in other ways tho...I have to overlook it. Hank stood completely still twice.
I was very happy with the way these x-rays looked as far as his hooves go. Seems his sole has really gotten thicker also. Thanks again.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 26, 2008 - 7:22 am:
DrO. could you describe what you mean by squaring off the toe? I didn't see it in any of the articles.
I have seen squared off toes, but I'm pretty sure by the looks of the horses hooves it was done wrong...it looked like their whole toes were chopped off and they were not sound. My old farrier use to do that on Sams back hooves and that is when he got very lame and his hooves looked horrible.
Thanks
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Apr 28, 2008 - 6:10 pm:
Squaring off the toe or rolling the toe means to remove more of the front from the toe giving the toe a somewhat squared off appearance.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 11, 2008 - 7:54 am:
Dr.O. Hank was trimmed a week ago and he has been short strided ever since. I THINK the farrier didn't leave enough wall, but not sure.
I don't believe he is foundering...locked in dry lot, no weight shifting, hasn't gained weight, pulses elevated, no heat in hooves. He does appear sore in fronts, especially on hard ground.
Considering all of his problems, especially thin soles I am considering putting a wide web shoe back on, to hopefully ward off sole bruising.
IF he was just trimmed too short isn't a week enough to see some improvement? I am applying betadine daily to his soles.
However if I put shoes on, does that make him more prone to seedy toe and WLD? I know he would be more comfortable with shoes and when my arena finally gets done I would love to have a horse to ride in it
I am willing to wait it out until the arena is done, but don't know if that is the wise thing to do. I don't want him to get sole bruises, things seem to go down hill quickly from there (been there, done that) Thanks
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 11, 2008 - 10:45 pm:
Diane looked at your profile to get your email.. but well.. So I will ask the question here.. is WLD contagious..?
We had a local fire and evacuated horses , i brought two home and put in my barn.. one has WLD... When he goes home should i disinfect that stall.. ? Sorry to ask on this thread..
spotsrock@skyhibroadband.net
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Jun 16, 2008 - 8:06 am:
Hello DianeE,
Without examining the feet I cannot answer your questions but if you believe that when your horses are trimmed correctly, you have sole sensitivity, I would recommend shoeing as one easy effective fix. I don't believe it makes pathology of the WL more likely but it does make it harder to diagnose while the shoe is on.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Jun 16, 2008 - 8:21 am:
Thanks Dr.O. he seems better now so I think he was trimmed a little short and/or his feet are water logged making for soft soles. When I walk him on the road, it doesn't sound like normal hoof sounds "clop" sounds more like he has beDrOom slippers on.
I still suspect WLD is trying to develop, hopefully I have it under control. As always time will tell I guess Thanks
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 1, 2009 - 5:45 am:
Hi all I just wanted to re-visit the sole callous, which is pictured in the beginning of this thread, because I find it very interesting AND it's back, almost exactly the same time of year.
Since we had the rain last week our ground is icy, VERY hard, and irregular. Hank's movement had become a little short strided on it...nothing unusual for him on this type of ground and not bad enough that it concerns me. He has no heat or pulses.
2 days ago as I was cleaning his hooves I noticed the big toe callous, it seems to have "grown" overnight. He is moving better..but NQR yet. My concern with the toe callous is it has grown higher than his hoof wall and I don't know if that is good, bad, or indifferent? Last year the farrier scraped it off until it was level with the hoof wall and Hank became VERY sore. He is over half way in his trim cycle, I think he's due to be done on the 11th. WWYD have the farrier leave it alone or scrape it to the hoof wall height? I can take pics if anyone would be interested in seeing it or would help with an opinion. My concern with leaving it at this height is bruising. His hooves look pretty good otherwise (for him)
Thanks
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Jan 2, 2009 - 9:24 am:
There is controversy as to what to do with a
"exposed sole callus" and in my mind it depends on the situation but in general you do not want to remove "healthy horn" from the sole with a hoof knife.
I believe most of the natural trim folks, and I know for sure Ric Redden, would say leave it alone as it can represent a tough healthy sole. It is logical that the unloading of the wall around the callus will lead to a natural increase in foot (wall) length whether through decrease wear or increase rate of growth, or both. In short this may be a first stage in your horses attempt to grow a stronger heavier foot.
In a horse with good quality thick sole I would not expect levelling it with the wall would cause lameness and believe your past problems are do to the P3 rotation and closeness of the tip toe bone to the weight bearing surface.
DrO
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Friday, Jan 2, 2009 - 1:48 pm:
Diane, if he is sound with the toe callous I would not be likely to remove it. Some of our horses (the ones with flatter feet it seems) get toe callouses that seem to appear and disappear. We don't trim the callous off (but then we don't take any sole at all unless it's flaking out on it's own) and haven't had any bruising to speak of (out 24/7 on mixed ground).
With all the problems you have had with Hank I would exercise caution and leave well enough alone
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jan 2, 2009 - 2:30 pm:
Thanks, that's pretty much what I thought, tho Hank is not sound on this ground...he is tippy toeing on it. I have a feeling the toe callous is keeping it from becoming a train wreck as it has often become on this type of ground. For the most part he seems comfortable, no weight shifting, rests his hind legs and no heat, but I did detect a pulse today . 1st time I've wished it would snow in a long time!!!( just a couple inches) don't want to jinx myself In case the snow fairy is listening.
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Friday, Jan 2, 2009 - 11:26 pm:
Hi Diane,
I'm no expert, but it's hard to see how the callous would be making him more sore rather than less so.
Ummm, I notice he has no weight watcher's thread this winter, but I wonder if any excess weight may be a factor. We feel weird riding a footsore horse, but can sometimes overlook that an extra 150lbs is like he's being ridden all the time (caveat the balance issue). I try to keep my borderline gimpers pretty lean, and I wonder (without knowing) whether that might be worth re-visiting for Hank?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 3, 2009 - 6:46 am:
Elizabeth, he could stand to loose some weight, he's not extremely overweight. He looks fatter than the tape says tho, I have been weight taping him, and I hate to admit I have become lazy as far as his diet. I have become a person of convenience and laziness. I don't know if I have the will to fight his weight, but you are right and I think I will start again...tho no WWD thread I think I wear Dr.O. and HA members out with it, it is a REALLY big help to me tho! Tends to give me encouragement, don't know why it's so hard, when the results are so good! That boy can live on air.
When I talked to the vet the other day he asked how Hank was, I told him fat as usual. He said OH so you are setting him up for another founder this spring. I said probably....he said at least your honest, so that brought it home for me.
I will go back to starving them again, I hope I can stay strong!!! Thanks
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 3, 2009 - 9:51 am:
Rethinking all this and your description of appearing overnight are you not sure the horse has wore away the wall on the ice, exposing the sole? Ice when irregular can be quite abrasive. If this is true a well fitted boot will do wonders.
DrO
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 3, 2009 - 10:50 am:
Diane, I know few people who work harder at keeping their horses in good condition regarding diet. I think Hank is one of those horses that gain weight on air, as you say, and they only way I've ever been able to keep that type in good weight is to work them at least an hour a day (hard work) and really watch their feed; weighing it out every day and not giving then a twig more than their daily allotment. This is terribly difficult, especially when you work, and even more so when you get those pathetic looks they give you!
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 3, 2009 - 11:59 am:
Diane, I notice with our wet and cold weather, my two colts shed all their false sole, except at the toe area. I left it when I trimmed as it's obviously in a place that protects the tip of the coffin bone. It doesn't look smooth like your pictures last year. It would pop off pretty easily if I put a hoof pick under it and pried. Losing it makes the hoof wall look longer, as most of the layer of old sole material is gone except at the toe. Could that be what you're seeing?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 3, 2009 - 3:30 pm:
I don't know for sure, I took some pics and I see today the red bruising is starting
What do you think?
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 3, 2009 - 4:18 pm:
Yup, that looks like sole callous. I don't know about bruising? Is he due for a trim? Frog looks healthy! I think it's really hard to say much just based on photos.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 3, 2009 - 4:49 pm:
Yes he is more than half way through his trim cycle (6 weeks) I think he is due on the 11th. Maybe he has lost/ or worn off some of his sole, that black pigmentation is rarely visible. The red discoloration through out his sole is where it looks like he may be bruising. I guess that's what it is? He is tippy toeing on this ground, but seems a little better now. If he is still sore when his farrier appt. rolls around and there is no snow, I think I will delay it.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 3, 2009 - 8:22 pm:
Sorry to hear that Hank is "tippy toeing." Of all the things that you mention, that is what concerns me the most.
Horses feet certainly do seem to sometimes respond to changes in the environment and weather overnight.
Good luck Diane -- keep us informed.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 4, 2009 - 9:48 am:
The small rim of increased horn does not represent a "good sole callus" as is discussed by Dr Redden and probably other barefoot advocates. A good sole callus involves a thickening of the whole front of the sole in front of the frog. I often find such soles as imaged above are thin behind the raised rim and depress with my thumb pressure. The bruising along with the reported sensitivity supports the idea that this sole needs a softer surface or some protection.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 4, 2009 - 10:51 am:
Thanks Dr.O. I think you are right. I really don't want to boot him or shoe him because of the ice, but he is spending most of his time now in a deeply bedded lean-to. This icy, rutted stuff is always a problem with him, he has gotten to the point of soundness on normal hard ground. His soles almost always give to thumb pressure in the winter time, I suppose from the constant wet conditions, and abrasion wearing it away.
Thanks
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 4, 2009 - 11:45 am:
Diane, do you think that Sole-Guard might be good to try on him? I have no idea of the cost, or how it hold up on ice and snow. It seems to do good on sand (my friend used it on her horse.) If it's not too pricey, it might be worth a shot.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 4, 2009 - 12:05 pm:
Sara I sure like the sounds of sole-guard and have looked at it before. For hank and his flat foot I didn't think it would work. It also says not to use on sore, thin soled,bruised horses.
Can I use Sole-Guard on a sore footed horse?
Sole-Guard was designed to provide extra protection for a sound footed horse that is unshod. If your horse is sound and has normal depth of sole, Sole-Guard is perfect. If your horse has very thin soles or is already bruised on the sole we suggest waiting to use Sole-Guard until the bruising has gone away or the sole has thickened up some.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 4, 2009 - 12:12 pm:
After reading that statement above again, you got to wonder why you would need it at all... if you had a sound horse? I guess if you were going to ride on rocks or something, but by the time you buy the dispenser and the stuff and applying it, I think I'd prefer to put shoes or boots on?
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 4, 2009 - 12:29 pm:
That's pretty weird! So what is it's purpose, I wonder? If it's only to protect a sound hoof, like you, I'd use a boot or shoe.
My friend's horse, a stallion and in training, was very sore after having his shoes pulled. The farrier and vet felt he needed to go awhile without shoes to allow his feet to grow to a more normal/natural size and width. She put the Sole-Guard on him and it seemed to help him a lot. After a few days, she was able to continue his training in her arena, which is river sand. He stayed sound with no signs of soreness. I wonder if it was the Sole-guard, or if he would have anyway? It stayed on for almost a month, I think, without falling off. She thinks it's a great product, and keeps it on hand now to use when a horse is sore or has a thin sole. (She's a trainer and has a lot of horses going in and out of her barn, so see's about everything.)
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 4, 2009 - 12:49 pm:
I wonder if in your friends case it wasn't the sand, You would never know anything was wrong with Hank if he was on sand or any soft/semi soft ground.
I have used their pour-in products with shoes and LOVE them, however once it was applied to thick and the pressure of it pressing on the thin soles made him VERY sore. I wonder if it isn't the same principal?
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 4, 2009 - 1:29 pm:
I don't know. I know I also had a horse get sore from one of the injectable products they put in before they put on a pad. It was too hard and too thick under the heel and made the horse very sore.
In my friend's case the horse was sore on sand previous to using the Sole-Guard, but again, he may have gotten better over time. At first he was so sore he was very lame and didn't even want to walk much.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 4, 2009 - 1:30 pm:
btw, I AM doing things other than writing on the computer today! It's too cold to be out more than necessary, so I've cleaned the fridge and am doing laundry. I just take breaks between chores!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 4, 2009 - 1:42 pm:
Me too I just went and got some square bales and cleaned the lean-to. That ice is miserable, I don't use my yak traks on my chore boots for fear of smelling like a barn all day when working, but they went on today...They are great!!
AND that NW wind is almost unbearable.
I should suggest they make yak traks with pads for horses, I think they would be RICH! I think it would be very easy to do.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 4, 2009 - 1:45 pm:
OR maybe we should brainstorm it on HA and WE would be rich!!
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 4, 2009 - 2:07 pm:
Great idea! I wear either my ughs or a fleece lined clog I got off of Landsend.com. Both have good non-slip soles. I was ice skating with my Ariats or work boots on. We don't usually have ice like this except for in the spring for a few days. I don't mind snow, but sure hate the ice!
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 4, 2009 - 6:46 pm:
Hi everyone,
To answer the question of just what is Solegard good for. It is supposed to be used when you are transitioning horses out of shoes to barefoot. It is put on the sole as a thin layer just to add some protection to the bottom of the foot. It should not be packed thickly in the foot because that in itself would cause too much sole pressure.
You still have to transition the horses feet to the point where they will be tough and durable on their own without the Solegard.
It would be similar to using Forshners hoof packing( black tarlike substance that stays in the hoof very well on shavings). A lot of people use it incorrectly. You do not have to pack the whole foot, you just need to cover the sole at most maybe an 8th of an inch thick anything more is wasted.
Rachelle
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 4, 2009 - 7:01 pm:
Diane,
Have you ever tried Hoof-it trail boots on Hank. These are soft sided boots that are very easy to get on or off. The bottoms are made of some sort of textured rubber that seem to give good traction on ice and the pad that the boot is made with is about a 1/2 thick of several felt-like layers. It might just be what you need to make him more comfortable.
Rachelle
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 4, 2009 - 7:41 pm:
Rachelle I don't think I've heard of them unless you are talking about hoofix trail boots
https://www.plumshadefarm.com/learn_emergency_trail_boot.asp
They seem very similar to the hoof wraps, but I don't think anything is safe on the ice we have out there today. Hank actually seems to be greatly improving, still tip toeing, but not near as bad. He was starting to have a little heat and DP, that has dissipated too. He seems pretty comfy for the most part (for now anyway)
Thanks
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Monday, Jan 5, 2009 - 12:44 am:
Sorry Diane, I must have been having a senior moment. The hoofix trail boots from Plumshade are the ones I was talking about.
Hoof-it Technologies makes plastic composite horseshoes ( and has some other products). I looked into the composites when I was trying to find a glue on plastic shoe that would work on one of my racehorses that needed to be very light in front and that I did not want to nail.
Rachelle
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jan 30, 2009 - 5:58 am:
Dr.O. Hank is tip toeing on the hard, irregular ground (not bad tho) he still has a bit of bruising on his soles and a bit of a digital pulse...I can tell it bothers him to walk on this type of ground, tho not alarmingly so. This type of ground will probably be around for another mo. or so.
He is due to be trimmed tomorrow, his hooves are just a bit long, I'm wondering if it would be a mistake to trim him at this time. My dillema is with his problem hooves if he gets too long he gets sore also. I considered just having him rasped a bit but I don't think thinning his walls would be good at this point either.
What's your thoughts on this??
Thanks
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 31, 2009 - 8:30 am:
My thoughts are the decision has to be made by the farrier but if the soles are sensitive I would be slow to thin them up.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 31, 2009 - 5:21 pm:
Thanks Dr.O. I did ask my farrier and he said it was up to me...big help. I left him be, I was afraid a trim would "put him over the edge"
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