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  Discussion on Could a horse have low-grade ulcers for years?
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Member:
Skye

Posted on Monday, Mar 14, 2005 - 9:38 pm:

My 21-year-old Appendix mare is more finicky about grain than any other horse I've ever seen. Like many horses described on this site, she picks at her grain, especially in the morning, when often she eats nothing or next to nothing. She will do a pretty good job on her p.m. grain, but takes all night to eat all or most of it. She eats hay, especially fine hay, fairly well.

She is routinely floated, wormed, vaccinated, etc, She is anxious about change and determined to be alpha no matter what--a very strong personality.

Since I've owned her (7 years) has been at least 50 lbs underweight. I now feed her lunch ( her leftover breakfast), but she often leaves at least half of it.

She will eat every carrot in the world if offered them and nothing with vegetable oi or any other kind of oil, except sometimes Cocasoy.

She is, as I said, thin, and a little tucked up most of the time.

Could she have low-grade ulcers and have had them all these years without showing colic and a poor hair coat?

I'd love to get her to eat better and to look as if she enjoys it!

She seems pretty happy otherwise. Maybe this is just her nature?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 15, 2005 - 7:58 am:

The answer to both of your questions is a possible "yes" Ellie. How much grain are you feeding? Have you had a fecal run just before deworming? What is turn out like? Have you tried alfalfa hay, Ellie? We have two articles that may be helpful:
1. Care for Horses » Particular Situations & Procedures » Geriatric Horse: Problems and Care.
2. Equine Diseases » Colic and GI Diseases » Weight Loss in Horses » Overview of Chronic Weight Loss.
DrO
Member:
Skye

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 15, 2005 - 11:09 am:

Thanks so much for the ideas and info, Dr. O. . S

She;s turned out for about 11-12 hours a day, but she'd prefer 24/7, which is not possible right now. Seven or eight years ago, she was out 24/7 with a small herd, but her appearance and appetite were the same then as they are now.

There are no outward signs of Cushings, and she's had only one colic since I've had her; it was a mild gassy colic that occurred when she was moved to a new barn.
She is a nervous mare who wants everything her way no matter what and spends much of her time overlooking the farm and the horses pastured next to her.

She is offered about 2.25 lbs. of grain in the morning, a combination of Sprint (14%) sweet feed and Demand (12% protein), with the Sprint being about 1/2 of the mix.
If she eats 1/2 of it, we feel elated.

I offer her the leftovers at lunch, when she usually eats only 1/4 to at the very most 1/2 of it.

She is offered 2.25 of the same grain at night. The barn owner gives her another scoop at 8:00 pm if the mare has eaten the first helping.

No matter what grain we have offered over the years, her appearance and appetite have stayed the same.

She is given one flake of hay in her stall around 4:00 or 5:00 pm. She usually finishes that by 8:00 and is given another. If you give her more, she won't eat it and makes a huge mess.

When there is grass, she will graze forever.

I am having the vet do the blood work he deems necessary, including selenium levels, and he will do the fecal, of course. She shows no outward signs of Cushings.

She's done well in terms of handling the Maine winter with no blanket this year. In terms of the conditioning scale, I would guess she is about a 4.

So here it is: She shows no delight in food (except carrots), eats less during heat cycles, is, by temperament, anxious, and seems to be destined to be thin.

I will try alfalfa cubes if the alfalfa hay in unavailable.

I will get the fecal done. She is due for Moxidectin on April 15, but the vet doesn't come until the 29th. He is scheduled to do a fecal then. Should I wait for him--or do one sooner? Should I do it before giving the Quest?

In spring she dapples up nicely.

My thanks again, Dr. O.
Member:
Cindyt

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 15, 2005 - 12:36 pm:

Hi Ellie

I also have a gelding that is about 14 years old that I have experienced the same problems that you have experineced with your mare.

He is also very anxious and seems 'worried' all of the time, despite his casual, 24/7 quite turnout.

He also prefers his 'evening' meals, and picks at his AM meals. He doesnt show an interested in grain, and if he seems like he is enjoying it, and you add more grain he is immediately turned off of it.

Mine is also bright eyed and bushy tailed and is on proper worming/dental care.

As Dr. O suggested I added alflalfa cubes to his diet, but he is not very interested in those and if I am lucky will eat 2-3 cubes and walk away.

So--I understand your frustrations with your horse, as mine is seemingly the same...

oh yeah--I have since switched to a complete feed, that has a lot of beet pulp integrated into the feed.? Havent been able to see a difference yet.

Cindy

Ulers have come to my mind also
Member:
Skye

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 15, 2005 - 1:38 pm:

Fascinating, Cindy! May I ask what feed you've switched to and how long he's been on it? Oh, and does he like it okay?

Two or three cubes of alfalfa, well, I must say I can envision that with my mare. :-(

Ellie
Member:
Cindyt

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 16, 2005 - 1:24 am:

hey...

i have just switched to triple crown complete feed..its 11% protien and 10% fat. he does seem to like it ok, but it still hasent done the "trick". he has now been completely on it for about 10 days.

He is a wonderful horse, but he leaves me pulling out my hair when i present him with grain and he walks away!!

i can sprinkle some yummy alflafa cubes around his hay pile and he might try a few and eat 2-3, and leave the rest..In this respect I have also tried alfalfa chaff (sp?), weight builders, corn oil, veg. oil, wheat bran oil, rice bran oil, probiotics, supplements, and almost every type of grain available in my area.!?!

I have also tried putting cubes in with his grain, or served in another bucket. I have tried them moisted with water so they arent so hard, have have used different 'types' of buckets, at different heights and locations, but nothing suits him.

And, it almost seems that he will fluctuate (sp?) his weight from AM to PM? what about yours?

You also state that she is an anxious horse, as mine is also. she could have low grade ulcers, that if she was scoped, might not even show up clear. It might be worth your while/$$ to get some 'gastro-guard' type product from your vet or supply cataloge and treat her as if she has clinical signs of ulcers and see if there is a difference.??

i noticed that in your profile you say that you live in maine, perhaps on coldest nights you could blanket her so that she doesnt have to spend as much 'energy' on keeping warm. i dont know if you blanket, or if its an option for your situation, but it could help her maintain the weight that she has aquired.?? just an idea.

good luck with your horse, its nice to know that someone out there is experiencing the same issues that i am.

Cindy
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 16, 2005 - 7:31 am:

It is not an unusual story. I think these horses just do not adapt to stall life very well and this, along with a natural metabolic proclivity toward difficult keeping, makes them....well difficult to keep. Ellie I wonder if adding a small amount of carrot purree (Lord I cannot believe I am recommending this) well stirred into your concentrate would make a difference as to your horses appetite?

One other thing I would be interested in is, and this is purely experimental, is a fecal blood test using the one that turns blue if blood is present. Your vet will probably laugh at this one as most of us believe false negatives and positives in horses are common but a researcher sent me information recently that suggests it might be fairly sensitive and 100% specific for gi ulceration.
DrO
Member:
Parfait

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 16, 2005 - 12:00 pm:

I was just reading an article in "the Horse" yesterday, where they have mounted mirrors in horses stalls to decrease stereotypic behavior like weaving. But they also found that it calms horses suffering from separation and ones that didn't eat due to anxiety.

The mirrors have to be mounted in the right spot (not next to the food dish!) and be made of highly polished stainless steel. Horses show by their reactions to the mirrors that they seem to believe there is another horse in the stall with them. This has a calming effect.

If Dr O was going to talk carrot baby food well then, I thought I could mention this...
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 16, 2005 - 6:13 pm:

I saw the article Kerry, and it commented to my wife it seems like a great idea to try for those with stall vices that must be stalled. I have not read the details: do they give dimensions, suggestions on where to purchase and approximate costs? Cindy...Ellie are you game to try?
DrO
Member:
Cindyt

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 16, 2005 - 7:08 pm:

Hey,

My horse is not stalled, infact he is turned out 24/7 with is pasture buddy...But he also has serious seperation anxiaty (sp?) when I take his pasture buddy out to ride...this could prove helpful to use when he is alone.

I would be willing to try anything at this point...more info would be great~~!

Cindy
Member:
Parfait

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 16, 2005 - 7:50 pm:

Yes there is a web site: www.jacksonarenas.com
email address: lynnjackson@btinternet.com

The company (Jackson Arenas)is in England and the mirror itself is called the Lincoln Stable Companion Mirror. There is also a smaller Travelling Mirror that they have used in the horse trailers. It is supposed help with horses who are problem loaders or finicky about hauling solo.

The smaller mirror goes for $131 plus shipping and the stall mirror is $178 plus shipping. There are no dimensions in the article, though the picture looks to be 2'x2'. A percentage of the sales is going to further research.

Some horses will nuzzle the mirror and sleep by it and some will pin their ears (as I'm sure my mares would) so you need to place the mirrors where the horses can have optional access and not have it by food or water. But everyone in the article said that the horses are overall, calmer and that many different behaviors improved over the 12 month follow-up study and they are applying it to stall rested horses and weaning and such to study the effects. Cindy, your situation of happy in the field and fussy w/o his buddy was specifically mentioned as having found to be calmer.

I haven't checked the site yet forgive me.
Member:
Parfait

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 16, 2005 - 8:03 pm:

Ahh,
Apparently the size and placement of the mirror is top secret and marketable. Too large and the animal is stressed, too small and ineffective. I think they send directions on placement with the mirror.
My guess is mid-way on a wall, from what I can see on the website.
Member:
Skye

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 16, 2005 - 8:50 pm:

What interesting information! Yes, Dr. O; I am willing to try anything I can afford. The part about calm in the pasture and anxious without the buddy is definitely my mare.

In fact, two months when the farrier came, this mare was totally obnoxious about being in the barn to have her feet done while only one other horse was in with her. Today, with all the other horses in, she was perfect.

Thanks for the mirror info, Kerry!

The idea of the carrot puree, Dr. O, is certainly something I will try. You couldn't believe you were recommending it ; I think it's a great idea and will try it within a day or two.

I will also talk to the vet about the fecal blood test.

One more question: Don't most horses look forward to grain? That she is chronically a tad underweight concerns me. That she shows little delight in grain bothers me more.

Finally, I know she'd like to be out at night. I also know when she was out 24/7 in a small herd, her weight and appetite were just as they are now.

Right now I am thinking of treating her for ulcers just in case, as you suggested, Cindy. I'm giving some serious thought to the Triple Crown you're using, alfalfa cubes, mirrors, carrot puree, soft music, nature tapes in the stall at night, pleading, demanding, and hypnotism. There must be horse hypnotists out there, mustn't there? Earning $100 an hour?
Member:
Chohler

Posted on Thursday, Mar 17, 2005 - 1:05 pm:

DrO do you have more info on the fecal blood test?
Member:
Chohler

Posted on Thursday, Mar 17, 2005 - 1:30 pm:

you might be able to go to a metal shop and purchase a cut of stainless steel or even aluminum maybe a 2'x2' sheet and have someone run a buffer/polisher on it for less. Use a low grit high gloss polish and don't stay in one spot very long or you will burn a haze on it. You can coat the mirror with clear acrylic spray or leave it uncovered to polish in the future if it gets dirty and dull. You can drill stategic holes along the edges for hardware to hang the mirror.

I will see if I can get a piece from my friend and polish it and see what happens? I just put a gelding in a stall he has no vices but his neighbors are teaching him.

See if you can find a bizy ball it is a treat concoction of somesorts. There was a mare at the barn I worked at and she was finiky and hated grain but I got a bizy ball as a gift and she showed interest in it so the make up a similar concotion to feed her now. I think it has timothy chaffe in it and some grains and some type of syrup on it.

Have you ever tried senior feed? The carrot puree is not a bad idea you could crush antacid/cemetidine in it. I have even gone as far as to crush sweet pepermints into my horses feed.
My other solution was to put a feed bag on the horse and leave it on it till the horse ate the feed out of boredom. Soaking the grain sometimes helps too.

I just had my farrier do a herd sour horse's feet for me and he actually suggested taking at least 2 other herd members and tying them up with her just to get the job done.
Member:
Paardex

Posted on Thursday, Mar 17, 2005 - 2:25 pm:

Did anyone try giving there horse a goat? We had excellent results twice with horses who didn't like to be left alone they got much calmer and eat much better, if they did not eat the goat would and somehow that convinced them to help finishing the meal [ took a few weeks though] Apart from that most horses who didn't eat very well liked carrots and apples and fresh cut grass through their usual meal. The only thing nobody ever mentions in these posts is silage of grass most horses realy love that they usually eat it much better then hay.
Member:
Cindyt

Posted on Thursday, Mar 17, 2005 - 3:43 pm:

Hello all

My horse is with his pasture buddy 24/7, unless I take his buddy out to ride...they are fed in the pasture in hanging buckets, a good distance apart.

I have tried senior feeds, complete feeds, pelleted feeds, straigh oats/corn, different varieties of sweet feeds, adding oils, brans, carret pealings, apples.

I would try the antacids, except that my horse wont eat his grain well now, and is super finky..for example...I had to bute him once, ground the bute up and tried to feed it..it took 1 sniff and refused to eat for 3 days? I had to switch grains in order to get him to even smell the grain...

I have also tried "bucket sharing" to encourage the other to eat, and it worked once..then he again wasnt interested in eating it.
(the horse that I have trouble with is the alpha horse, so hes not being intimadated)

I will try to soak that grain in water with this evenings meal...and the carrot puree

The mirror idea is wonderful...I will need to play around with it.

Thank you all for your suggestions!
Member:
Sparky

Posted on Thursday, Mar 17, 2005 - 4:12 pm:

When my gelding was stalled for 8 months with injury he was very anxious when the others were coming and going from the barn. I used Rescue Remedy in his water. I use it for my dog, husband and have used it myself. It is from Bach Flower Remedy's and is available at vitamin or health stores. Comes in a little yellow box and only takes a few DrOps. Also used it when our dog was injured and I always kept it in his water dish. I found that when the animal was less anxious they ate better. I have it in my first aid kit in my trailer too. If you are going riding I would squirt some into the horse staying behind before you start tacking up the other one. It will work on a highly anxious horse but I feel your chances are better to start out calm and stay calm or not get to that high anxiety level in the first place.
Just a thought. Good luck.
Janet
Member:
Deggert

Posted on Thursday, Mar 17, 2005 - 5:20 pm:

Hello
I have syringed the zantac to my gelding and it works and you know they got it. It is a pain though. I have a coffe grinder just for them then I put about 30cc oil in a dose syringe and pour in the zantac, stir and put the plunger in. A friend suggested I try it in a senior feed or something a little sticky and my goodness it worked, no more syringing. I think they have to feel good already and be eating well to eat it in a mix. Good luck
Member:
Paul303

Posted on Friday, Mar 18, 2005 - 2:47 am:

I have a mare that has gone through bouts of disinterest in feed. After making sure there was nothing physically wrong, I began cutting back on her feed until I hit the amount that she would finish without fail. There was one time that the amount she would finish was just one cup of feed. I'd leave her cut down until she consistantly finished her ration for a week or so, or until she would show some obvious interest in her feed. At that point, I'd slowly increase until she was at normal ration - which, I've discovered, is less than the other horses. The horses are all free fed quality hay and have pasture in season, but, like everyone else, I mix supplements with feed, so it's important that she eats all the feed she gets. I can also say that feed has never been much of a thrill to her....maybe it's my cooking....
Member:
Louwhite

Posted on Monday, Apr 25, 2005 - 10:54 pm:

Dr O - could you provide more insight about the blood fecal test? My Arab was diagnosed with ulcers a couple of months ago...we saw them using an endoscope. I've been treating him with Gastrogard and he is much better, but I'd like to know for sure that the ulcers have gone. I can't afford to take him in for another endoscopy so perhaps the blood fecal would suffice?
Thanks so much,
Lou
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Apr 28, 2005 - 12:01 pm:

If I recall correctly the tests run by this company and a veterinarian found that in a large number of horses that were tested and then necropsied that the test were sensitive in about 2/3rds the cases of gastric ulcers (1/3 of the gastric ulcers were negative) and when present were 100% indicative of either gastric ulcers or colonic ulcers. I really have a hard time accepting this 100% factor: none of these horses had other sources of bleeding like parasites or tumors etc? But it is interesting and I watch for supporting work. I don't think it should be used as a primary diagnostic tool at this time.
DrO
Member:
Skye

Posted on Friday, May 6, 2005 - 6:20 pm:

Just an update on Skye, the 21-year-old ultra-finicky Appendix mare: the vet felt, as you did, Dr. O, that yes, she could be dealing with chronic, low-grade ulcers. We decided to try her on Gastrogard and see whether she improves. The vet says he's seen good results with a full dose given for two weeks, then a 1/2 dose for a week, and finally a 1/4 dose for the last week. If we go that long with it, then we will decide whether to keep her on a 1/4 dose for an extended period or do something else--or do nothing.

He certainly was discreet with what he said, but his body language implied he felt this could do the trick. I shall try not to get my hopes up. Not easy, though!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, May 7, 2005 - 9:35 am:

Before committing to a "feeling" I would have liked to see 3 fecal blood tests and if one was positive would so commit but the experiment you are running is certainly in the same vein, just rather more expensive.
DrO
Member:
Skye

Posted on Saturday, May 7, 2005 - 9:57 am:

Ah, yes. That makes a lot of sense.
Durn. :-)
Member:
Brandi

Posted on Monday, May 9, 2005 - 11:45 pm:

Ellie, if it's any consolation, I did the "expensive experiment" on my horse, similar short-term regime, and he's been symptom-free ever since. He was biting at his sides for weeks, if not months, and is an "easy colic-er". He is not biting at his sides at all since then, and with more frequent turnout (hand-grazing in my case now) we seem to be keeping him comfortable with no long-term regime. I think I did it in January, but I'd have to check. I know it's not a definitive success, but since it sounds like you already started, I thought I'd share. Remember, a positive attitude can make a difference, so you might as well convince yourself that it will work. The whole reason they invented "double-blind" studies is because their was a statistical positive result from researchers who anticipated positive results. You just might make a difference. Good luck.
Member:
Skye

Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 9:53 am:

I love your suggestion about the positive attitude! I shall try like heck.

How long was your horse on Gastrogard before he tarte dto show a real response?

Thanks, by the way, for the support!
Member:
Brandi

Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 2:17 am:

Ellie,
He stopped biting his sides after the end of the "full-dose per day" period. Which escapes me now...a week...maybe 10 days. That was my biggest indicator of pain--or lack thereof.
Good Luck...or should I say by now, how's she doing now?
B
Member:
Skye

Posted on Friday, May 20, 2005 - 8:24 pm:

Thanks for the info, Brandi. My mare is noticeably improved after two weeks of daily dosing with a full tube of Gastrogard. She eats significantly more gain and noticeably more hay. We also provide Denie Hi-Fiber.

She is brigher and happier. And so am I.

Now we move to one week with daily doses of 1/2 tube, then one week of daily doses of 1/4 tube.

I am praying she will continue to do well.

Soon the fecal and blood work info with be coming in. If it's relevant or interesting to others with similar problems, I'll post the results.
Member:
Skye

Posted on Friday, May 20, 2005 - 8:26 pm:

I think that word gain above must have been a Freudian slip!
Member:
Sully

Posted on Monday, May 30, 2005 - 5:27 pm:

Ellie....a friend of mine also has a mare that suffers from ulcers...it was suggested to her to add 1 cup of cooked white rice in with her grain...she said the mare now eats her grain...she also uses the Silverlining herbs with grain and the mare has had a complete turnaround. Just a thought.
Nancy
Member:
Skye

Posted on Monday, May 30, 2005 - 7:38 pm:

That's very interesting, Nancy--thanks. I just had a look at the Silverlining website. Do you know which product your friend used?

I wonder, too, about the white rice, would love to know the chemistry behind that.

Does she intend to feed the rice and the herbs indefinitely?
Member:
Sully

Posted on Monday, May 30, 2005 - 10:38 pm:

Ellie....She called and spoke with Micky...He is the one who told her to add a cup of cooked rice in with her feed. She also put her mare on their product LCR and their training mix. She barrel races and her horse has been doing great. She no longer walks away from her feed, she is eating it.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 8:32 am:

Do we know what herbs are in the LCR?
DrO
Member:
Sully

Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 11:49 am:

Dear Dr O. Below is a list of ingredients. They also stress feeding whole oats. This is copied from their web site:

Sometimes horses develop an ulcer from the stress that they are placed under in our high stress environment. When this happens, you must start the healing process by controlling the diet generally, an ulcer is the product of a high acid environment. One way to alleviate this is by feeding on a regular feeding schedule and by reducing the high acid feeds, such as alfalfa. We also need to reduce stress. This combination is designed to nutritionally support the healing process, as well as soothe the digestive tract.

* Patent Pending

Ingredients
#29 LCR- cascara, chamomile, golden seal, licorice, marshmallow, myrrh, pau d’ arco, plantain, rose hips, shepherd’s purse, slippery elm, yarrow.
Member:
Sully

Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 11:51 am:

Just want to add, that this is a friend of mine who is using the product and seeing positive results since she made these changes after years of trying to get this mare to consume grain.

Thank You

Nancy
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 1, 2005 - 6:36 am:

Thank you Nancy,
I cannot find any scientific support for this product as a ulcer cure. Also they are incorrect about alfalfa, in experiments it is a buffer of stomach acids that helps prevent a low stomach ph.
DrO
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