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  Discussion on Rocker shoe vs. shoes with pads
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Member:
Quatro

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 16, 2005 - 10:34 am:

Hi! I tried to find my original post on Levi, but could not. My question is to Dr. O or anyone that can advise me. I know that, Dr. O, you have said to do whatever the vet says. However, we are working on trying to get a farrier to work with that is closer to me, so I do not have to travel 2 1/2 hours. The new farrier is not comfortable with the rocker shoe. He says that one of the reasons that Levi is not growing any new sole, is that his feet have no contact with the ground, therefore no increase in circulation to help sole growth. He would like to put him in a normal shoe with pads to raise his heel. My question is, is this good advice. He is supposedly consulting with a vet over the x-ray. The vet has not seen my horse physically. Levi has been sound with the rocker shoe, although we have not ridden or worked at all this winter. The new x-ray I had done yesterday shows no change in the angle of the coffin bone, and very little sole growth on both feet. I have added hoof supplements, alfalfa and a high quality grain complete feed. So should I try the shoes with pads or have the new farrier just trim his hoof walls, and put back on the rocker shoes?
I know I am asking for diagnosis from afar, but the farrier is coming tomorrow, so I do not know if he knows what he is talking about? He is a new guy.
Thanks
suz
Member:
Dres

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 16, 2005 - 11:21 am:

Suz, I am not a farrier nor a vet... but if your boy is sound.. why change?? if it ain't broke don't fix it..??

Shoeing issues are huge, I understand completely what you are going thru, wish we all had the knowledge and crystal ball to make decisions...


On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with SPOTS..
Member:
Ejar

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 16, 2005 - 1:04 pm:

First question is: What's our goal? Are we aiming for sound first, then sole growth? Or is sole growth more important?

If we're sound and that's what we want, I agree with Ann, don't change what ain't broke.

BUT, if we need sole growth, and your farrier (new guy or old guy) isn't happy with it, AND he is working with your vet and the vet AGREES to the change, then give the pads a try.

My horse has required corrective shoeing ever since she arrived from the breeder. (That's a long and sordid tale).

We've tried every lift style imaginable, and the one that works for her is pads. The problem we had when we used a rocker shoe is that it degraded her heel, making our problems worse.

You didn't say how long you've tried the rocker shoes. Also, remember, in winter we don't get as much foot growth as in the summer, so that could contribute to why you haven't seen much recent change.

Also, it bothers me that the vet has not seen your horse. X-rays are only part of the picture. My mare's x-rays were almost clean, yet to see her feet you'd think the worst.

In addition, consider your new farrier - did he come highly recommended? How many horses has he cared for with problems like yours? I have always turned to my vet for farrier recommendations: no feet, no horse.

Good luck.

Erin}
Member:
Suzeb

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 16, 2005 - 1:36 pm:

Suz,
I found your original post in "What is a Palmer Angle".
What you need to do is find out which vet this farrier is consulting with. Could he consult with the vet who recommended the rocker shoe to get a more accurate feel for what is going on?
From what I can gather the rocker shoe is one that requires a learning curve in application and you need a vet and farrier working together to get the results. You as Levi's owner have to make the day to day observations of his progress or lack of it. I went through this with my own horse and a farrier who was applying some designer shoe with less than wonderful results. Turns out the farrier didn't have his learning curve up to snuff and wasn't really willing to go further with it .
It is possible that the farrier applying the rocker shoe was paring away sole in order to apply the shoe with the right angles, hence you don't see any sole growth, it keeps getting cut away.
Pads underneath a shoe would make for a softer more tender sole in my opinion and still does not offer contact with the ground.
I tend to agree with those that if it ain't broke don't fix it camp.
Have you addressed the cause of laminitis/founder issues? If so, your guy should be well on his way to healing and you may be able to graduate to a simpler shoe.

Hope this helps,

Susan B.
Member:
Johnsonl

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 16, 2005 - 2:12 pm:

Suz, Don't know if this will help you any, but in the continuting saga of treatment for my Buckeye's founder, I wanted to share with you what's working for him. He foundered almost a year ago with 8 and 12 degree rotations, as well as sinking. His 8 degree is completely corrected and just a few millimeters left in the other leg. From day one my farrier put him in a regular shoe, with poured Equiphane (spelling?) as the pad. It hardens after being poured. As Mr. B progressed he began to slowly cut back a bit more toe. He only very recently (the last two shoeings) put him in a rocker shoe. Buckeye's doing well in them. My farrier sometimes works and consults with another farrier who has a different stategy with founders, in that he puts them in a rocker shoe right away. My guy told me he's getting better results by going with the regular shoe first, until the horse is well stabilized for a few months, and then taking them further along with the rocker. He said they tend to grow more sole and the rotation seems to correct well also. All I know is Buckeye has fanatastic sole growth, so much so that he's having to have quite a lot trimmed off each time! I'm enormously grateful for his progress. Throughout, I've had three sets of x-rays taken which the farrier and vet look at together. Turns out each time, my farrier had perfectly positioned Mr. B's shoes (in both the regular and the rockers). I know some folks don't like the poured pads, but they've worked wonders for Mr. B. But, alas...a new wrinkle in the story: Looks like Buckeye may have some White Line disease. But, just last night the farrier came for the regular 5 week visit and 2nd application of the rockers with poured pads and he told me we'll do nothing different for now. He prefers to have the affected part grow down and out if possible, without carving away a hoof that's already been compromised. Also, the x-ray is "iffy" as to whether or not it's White Line or a "gas crack"?? BTW, I've had Mr. B on Happy Hoof chaff, a hoof supplement with lots of biotin, and good quality hay from the start. Although his x-rays look great, his hooves look great, he runs around in pasture quite a lot, he still doesn't feel right to ride. He may be one of those horses that will never be anything but pasture-sound again, despite appearances. But, I'm still praying. Anyway, his hoof/shoeing regimine has worked miracles. I thought he was going to have to be put down at the start of this! Good luck with Levi...let us know...Lori J.
Member:
Deggert

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 16, 2005 - 2:59 pm:

Hi all
My founder mare is 10 months post and only foundered in one foot about 6 degrees. As we all learn these founders are all different. She has been happy with no shoe on her foot and is till confined to a paddock. She wore a pad taped on for a few months, then barefoot, now she wears an easy boot with closed cell foam inside and Animalintex padding ( cotton with drying and moisture absorption) My farrier is great and we just trim her foot to slowly get it back into shape. She looks very sound, but we are holding off on turnout till her foot grows out completely. We will attempt a shoe in about 2 months or so and then it will most likely be a regular shoe with pad. She is so happy in the easy boot and I change it 2-3 times a week. She has been on many supplements but she looks great and feels great. Her post is on "foundered mare with foal at side" Good luck to all.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 16, 2005 - 6:53 pm:

Lets see Susan, let's first start with me saying do whatever the vet says. This is not my position and I contradict vets more than I like in these pages. I DO say that the person who can examine the horse has the best chance at understanding a problem. And I cannot think of anywhere this is more true than dealing with founder with rotation. In situations like this it is essential to examine the horse and have radiographs to make good decisions so I HAVE to defer to those who can see the horse.

Even with excellent care it can take a while to get those soles thickened up again and that alone should not be used to judge what you are doing. That said, I think I have stated before that I am no fan of rockers that include the heel but I always rocker the toe. Hmmmm...about the best help I can give you Susan is to have you read how we handle recovering founders. I try to explain the principles in the article, Equine Diseases » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Founder & Laminitis » Rehabilitation and Derotation of Foundered Horses. Compare it to what they want to do and ask questions when you don't understand.
DrO
Member:
Quatro

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 16, 2005 - 7:49 pm:

Thanks to all for responding. I wish I was smarter, or more knowledgeable about what is right. It seems to me that levi has no heels at all anymore. He is growing toe, but no heel on the front, nor the back even. He has not been trimmed now for 10 going on 11 weeks. I just have a gut feeling that this can't be good, but the 2 vets here I have had look at them don't seem to know what to do, and defer to the farrier. The vet that has seen levi and recommended the rocker shoe has not seen him since november. He too defered to the farrier up there. To let you know what kind of veterinarian I am working with here, actually not working with anymore, if anyone knows anything about dogs, I have a boarding kennel. Last weekend we had a dog with bloat, which is extremely deadly if not treated immediately. The vet on call was the vet who is our horse vet, he advised me that I had a half hour to an hour to wait to be seen, as he was busy, and maybe I could just flip him over so his stomach might flip back. Thankfully, I got him into the dogs regular vet who performed emergency surgery and saved the dogs life. This vet said if I had not gotten him in as soon as I had the spleen may have died, etc. and was thankful that I brought him the dog in such a quick time. It is so frustrating for me to not have reliable veterinary care to work with, and I am strapped here with my business. So the distance to drive to the other vet is difficult and costly. I will print out the article on shoeing foundered horses and discuss it with this farrier tomorrow, and hope for the best I guess.
thanks to all
I just hope that I am not going to be dealing with a lame horse. Positive Thinking :0, I must think positive. This guy comes highly recommended, but alot of his recommendation comes from him, so that makes me worry.
He has not worked on levi yet.
sorry for rambling
suz
Member:
Ejar

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 16, 2005 - 10:07 pm:

Dang, Suz, you poor thing! There's nothing worse than feeling like you don't have any professional you can truly trust.

You wrote Levi's heels are down - Are the rocker shoes aluminum? My last farrier tried aluminum rockers on my horse, which made her heels totally disappear. As soon as we got rid of them, she started growing heel again. He said it happens with some horses.

If this new farrier comes with recommendations (you know people who like him? He's done good things for horses you know?) I'd say try the pads. If it isn't working, you'll be able to tell, and can go back to the rocker shoes.

You might want to keep a photo journal of Levi's feet. Take close ups, use a ruler or something in the pic behind his heel and along the side of his foot, so that you can see the progress over the weeks. If nothing else, the pictures will reassure you when things are going well, and give you a warning when they're not.

It took my current farrier probably six months to get good heel growth on my mare, between trimming the toe and giving her good support. He uses a 2 degree pad designed for endurance horses.

You might also pin the farrier down on a) how long before we expect to see a change? and b) what are we going to do if we don't?

He ought to have answers for both.

Keep us posted.

Erin
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Mar 17, 2005 - 7:13 am:

Do you have any recent radiographs to help quide you? I find making decisions much easier when I know exactly where the tip of the coffin bone is.

I agree with your worry of self promotion. In general I find the farrier group quiet about themselves and non-self effacing. Those that talk a lot about themselves always worry me and usually for good reason.
DrO
Member:
Quatro

Posted on Thursday, Mar 17, 2005 - 7:12 pm:

An Update: Well, the farrier came, and was a bit more humble today. He removed the rocker shoe, and surprisingly we had much more hoof and sole growth than the x-ray showed. He has a rather wide white line, especially in the area where he had not had any sole at all before. His toe had grown out quite a bit, dragging the shoe away from the heel, which is why it looked like he did not have much heel. He then trimmed the toe mostly, flattened out his sole with a rasp, and then we took him out for a walk. He was landing flat, no limp. Trotted him in the round pen in both direction and absolutely no limp. So then he put the rocker shoe back on, kinda rasping the foot to fit the shoe. Then we repeated the work on the flat and in the round pen. He was sound all the way around. So I guess we can keep our fingers crossed. He is concerned that his heels are maybe contracting,and wants to get him out of the rocker shoe next time. The shoe is open ended, not like an egg bar. He showed me some round shoes, I think they are "egg bars" that had a raised heel on them, as well as a regular shoe with raised heel that was not a rocker type. Would he have been limping right away if he trimmed him incorrectly? Or will we have a problem on the morrow??? Are these round shoes a good idea? Hopefully his response being positive is a good indicator that we are doing ok.
thanks
I did have a recent x-ray to go off of and showed him, but don't know if that means anything. His feet look sooo much better. I will take your advice and document with my camera. Maybe I can get a picture of this posted.
thanks
suz
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Mar 18, 2005 - 6:44 am:

I would love to see a picture. I think it is a good sign he is not limping but cannot predict the morrow.
DrO
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